Col. John B. Alexander on UFOs, Psychic Spies & Forbidden Truths| The INVISIBLE WAR!

0:06 Speaker 1: On total disclosure, UFOs, cover ups, and conspiracies. We sit

0:11 Speaker 1: down with a man whose resume reads like a classified

0:15 Speaker 1: science fiction retired US Army colonel, a pioneer of non

0:20 Speaker 1: lethal weaponry, and one of the few people to ever

0:24 Speaker 1: straddle the line between black budget military ops and the

0:28 Speaker 1: deepest rabbit holes of the phenomena. You've heard of Stargate,

0:32 Speaker 1: you've heard a Skinwalker Ranch, but you haven't really heard

0:35 Speaker 1: the full story from the man who was there when

0:39 Speaker 1: the veil was dinnist. Joining us is legendary doctor John B. Alexander,

0:44 Speaker 1: military insider, NIDS investigator, and close collaborator with the likes

0:49 Speaker 1: of Robert Bigelow, and someone who's been neck deep in

0:52 Speaker 1: remote viewing, consciousness exploration, the UFO phenomena, and things that

0:57 Speaker 1: quite frankly defy explanation. So buckle in tonight. We're not

1:03 Speaker 1: just exploring the unknown. We're talking to a person who's

1:07 Speaker 1: tried to weaponize it. Today is a special day to record.

1:13 Speaker 1: Today is the day before Easter, and it's fitting for

1:17 Speaker 1: me to have come so far with the podcast, given

1:21 Speaker 1: that my mother was a huge proponent to the success

1:25 Speaker 1: of not just myself in this sphere, but the success

1:28 Speaker 1: of myself as a person. She died on April third,

1:31 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, so I dedicate this episode to her.

1:35 Speaker 1: Thank you very much, mom for being there for all

1:38 Speaker 1: the years that you were. With that being said, let's

1:41 Speaker 1: introduce the man of the hour, John Alexander. John. How

1:44 Speaker 1: are we doing? Brother?

1:46 Speaker 2: Oh? Pretty good? How are you?

1:48 Speaker 1: Oh fantastic. I'm so this is actually try number two.

1:52 Speaker 1: We did an episode a while back and the corrupt

1:56 Speaker 1: the file was was so corrupted that moultiple what I

2:01 Speaker 1: would call like tech geeks, could not even extrapolate the contents.

2:06 Speaker 2: So just because they were in there and what didn't

2:09 Speaker 2: want it out.

2:13 Speaker 1: I didn't want to say it. You know, I'll I'll

2:16 Speaker 1: let you say it. But uh, yeah, it was very

2:19 Speaker 1: weird because you know that the episode was edited, Uh,

2:24 Speaker 1: it was essentially ready, and it just I've never had

2:30 Speaker 1: something like that happen before. So we're gonna we're gonna

2:32 Speaker 1: try to do this again. Uh and I want to

2:34 Speaker 1: start I kind of want to do this episode in

2:37 Speaker 1: a in a in a linear way, so you've operated

2:41 Speaker 1: in a space that few really ever get close to,

2:45 Speaker 1: you know, where where military doctrine meets the mystical What

2:49 Speaker 1: first pulled you into these unconventional areas of research?

2:55 Speaker 2: Well, that's a little difficult question, you say, research have

3:01 Speaker 2: been interested as long as I can remember. A lot

3:04 Speaker 2: of the stories I tell this will date me quite

3:07 Speaker 2: a bit. But I was ten years old in nineteen

3:12 Speaker 2: forty seven when all of the UFO phenomenon started getting discussed.

3:19 Speaker 2: I went to a very unusual grade school which was

3:23 Speaker 2: actually part of a college which is now the University

3:27 Speaker 2: of Wisconsin at Lacrosse. We were grade school students. We

3:33 Speaker 2: were actually guinea pigs. It was a teacher's college at

3:36 Speaker 2: that time, and so they needed, you know, folks to

3:39 Speaker 2: practice teaching, and that was us. Well, we had an

3:43 Speaker 2: internal radio system and the students were encouraged and allowed

3:48 Speaker 2: to give broadcasts on pick your topic, and my topic

3:54 Speaker 2: in nineteen forty seven was UFOs. So that's when we

3:59 Speaker 2: were still they were blaming it on skyhook. That was

4:01 Speaker 2: going to be the answer to sure, right?

4:05 Speaker 1: Right? Right? How was so? What were when you got

4:08 Speaker 1: on that first time, or I mean, even if you

4:12 Speaker 1: could generalize it, what were you saying about? What was

4:15 Speaker 1: the feeling at the time, what was what were you

4:18 Speaker 1: thinking about? Roswell at the time.

4:21 Speaker 2: I'm not talking about Roswelt. This is when the remember

4:26 Speaker 2: forty seven, yesked Roswell, did it happened, But we were just,

4:31 Speaker 2: you know, just the whole topic of UFOs was just

4:35 Speaker 2: breaking into public consciousness. Obviously they've been around for millennia,

4:40 Speaker 2: but this was just on news there and what was

4:43 Speaker 2: it you also most remember and because before you were born,

4:49 Speaker 2: probably most of your audience, we had just come out

4:52 Speaker 2: of World War Two, the Soviet Union was just becoming

4:58 Speaker 2: a major adversary, and this would be soon into the

5:04 Speaker 2: beginnings of the Cold War. So you had a public

5:09 Speaker 2: consciousness it was very, very different from what you might

5:14 Speaker 2: have today, but it was so it was a bit

5:18 Speaker 2: of a diversion. The idea that it might be Ich

5:22 Speaker 2: or something was the prevalent that actually came along a

5:26 Speaker 2: bit later. Again, from a public consciousness perspective, it was

5:32 Speaker 2: a few things flying around.

5:36 Speaker 1: Okay, So were you guys, were you more keen to

5:39 Speaker 1: believe that the military was eventually going to come out

5:43 Speaker 1: and say, hey, guys, this is ours And.

5:47 Speaker 2: I'm ten years old at the time, so the thing

5:50 Speaker 2: about putting into the broader context was not Yeah, not

5:55 Speaker 2: something I really thought about. Right, here's an unusual topic.

6:01 Speaker 2: They had some pictures and things like that in the newspaper. Also, remember,

6:07 Speaker 2: and I think this was a critical element, is that

6:11 Speaker 2: the information ecosystem was very, very different. You know, our

6:16 Speaker 2: thing was you know, TV was just barely coming along,

6:20 Speaker 2: but print media, you know, the evening newspaper was the

6:25 Speaker 2: prime means.

6:26 Speaker 1: Of information, right right, right, So you have a kind

6:30 Speaker 1: of a connected not a not a people think of

6:34 Speaker 1: the world right now, and you know, they it's it's

6:37 Speaker 1: hard for them to believe that, you know, newspapers and

6:43 Speaker 1: radio where the the only means of communication. Given all

6:48 Speaker 1: the things that we have right now, it's hard for

6:49 Speaker 1: people to take that all out. But you're absolutely right. So,

6:53 Speaker 1: and especially in forty seven as well. You know, I

6:56 Speaker 1: don't know how it seemed to you as a kid,

6:58 Speaker 1: but you know, I wonder what your parents and what

7:01 Speaker 1: their what their thoughts because so much was going on

7:05 Speaker 1: at the time. Obviously, you know, Hitler had just been defeated,

7:08 Speaker 1: and World War Two ends, and we kind of roll

7:12 Speaker 1: into the Cold War just as quick as we get out,

7:15 Speaker 1: and you know, there's there's a lot to pay attention to. So,

7:20 Speaker 1: you know, was this notion of UFOs or whatever they were.

7:26 Speaker 1: Was it a bit of escapism, almost allowing.

7:29 Speaker 2: Yourself it may be, And certainly shortly thereafter from in

7:34 Speaker 2: the movie field it became just that, an escape ism

7:38 Speaker 2: sort of thing, and very wild, and I think many

7:42 Speaker 2: people are. You can see them still see the movies

7:44 Speaker 2: on TV. But you know just how pony, you know,

7:51 Speaker 2: floating in and that sort of thing. But no, I

7:54 Speaker 2: would not say that it was a big gal. It

7:59 Speaker 2: would have little lapse and that has continued from time

8:02 Speaker 2: to time, but that really doesn't come along.

8:06 Speaker 3: Until a bit later, right, right, And so so as

8:12 Speaker 3: a as a child or as a young young lad,

8:17 Speaker 3: when did you decide or did you get Did you

8:20 Speaker 3: decide early that you wanted to go into the military

8:23 Speaker 3: and that, you know, when did you kind of decide

8:26 Speaker 3: your path?

8:29 Speaker 2: I'm not sure I did, And that may sound strange,

8:33 Speaker 2: but throughout my life a whole series of sinquous incidents

8:40 Speaker 2: of this sort of happened. Trying the military was almost

8:46 Speaker 2: our indepitous. An article had just been published for the

8:51 Speaker 2: first time about special forces, and I heard rather a

8:55 Speaker 2: lot of that. We're talking nineteen fifty fifty six. I

9:01 Speaker 2: had completed my freshman year of school with college. I

9:06 Speaker 2: had gone there on the scholarship but didn't find that

9:09 Speaker 2: terribly interesting. But the stuff on you know what was

9:14 Speaker 2: now the early Green Berets was sounded reallyant. So I

9:18 Speaker 2: went down to the recruiter out of the blue during

9:22 Speaker 2: the summer I was scheduled to go back for the

9:24 Speaker 2: sophomore year. This was at Bloit College in Wisconsin. But

9:30 Speaker 2: went down and said, yeah, I want to join these

9:33 Speaker 2: Special Forces. And they go down on you know, sign

9:37 Speaker 2: up for airborne. Uh, you know, go jump out of airplanes.

9:41 Speaker 2: That sounded different, you know, And if you want to

9:44 Speaker 2: go to the Special Forces after that, all you got

9:46 Speaker 2: to do is sign the paper and they'll send you.

9:48 Speaker 2: And I was naive enough to believe that at the time,

9:52 Speaker 2: so signed up, went to jump school, and ended up

9:58 Speaker 2: a short time later in a hundred first airport.

10:03 Speaker 1: And so it really was. I mean, it probably happened

10:06 Speaker 1: so quick for you that that you signed that contract.

10:11 Speaker 1: How quick? How quick before you sign the contract that

10:14 Speaker 1: and you're shipping off.

10:17 Speaker 2: Maybe a week.

10:19 Speaker 1: Really it was just a few days.

10:21 Speaker 2: And they had picked the date of the poor basic

10:25 Speaker 2: training and then on to Fort Campbell. It was very

10:30 Speaker 2: really Yeah, the bad thing is I went home. My

10:35 Speaker 2: mother had no idea that I had done any of this.

10:39 Speaker 1: Oh god.

10:40 Speaker 2: And so they're gearing out and I'm going by the

10:43 Speaker 2: way tomorrow morning.

10:46 Speaker 1: Right. Well, yeah, it's quite the quite the the that's

10:53 Speaker 1: quite the update to get from from your son, especially

10:56 Speaker 1: at the time. You know, So the Air Force was

11:00 Speaker 1: was now I'm making sure I'm getting my dates right here,

11:04 Speaker 1: but I mean the Air Force had to be fairly new,

11:07 Speaker 1: right well, I.

11:08 Speaker 2: Was in the Army. Yes, the Air Force had well

11:12 Speaker 2: it was about a decade old at that point. Before that,

11:16 Speaker 2: it was the Army or the Air Corps, and then

11:19 Speaker 2: the Air Force came along forty seven. But no, I

11:24 Speaker 2: decided to go jump out an airplane. Thought that'd be me.

11:29 Speaker 1: So and you so, I guess my question being is

11:35 Speaker 1: so when you jump out of airplanes with the Army,

11:39 Speaker 1: it's different than obviously jumping out and being in the Navy.

11:43 Speaker 1: I'm not the Navy the Air Force. Right, So you

11:45 Speaker 1: made the distinction to, you know, go into the Army

11:49 Speaker 1: rather than the Air Force. Was there a reason?

11:52 Speaker 2: Very different units? And of course I was at I said,

11:57 Speaker 2: one hundred and first Airborne, which was a unit the

12:01 Speaker 2: division sized unit in the eighty second that were designed

12:06 Speaker 2: specifically as warfighting elements that we dropped in and again,

12:12 Speaker 2: what's happening now is really interesting. This is going to

12:16 Speaker 2: bleed over other things. But the notion of warfare at

12:19 Speaker 2: the time was very, very different. Remember remember forty five

12:27 Speaker 2: was the first nuclear weapon, and so the idea of

12:32 Speaker 2: atomic warfare what that might look was just in the

12:36 Speaker 2: embryonic stage. In fact, she was the one hundred and

12:42 Speaker 2: first was what they called the pantomic Division. That was

12:46 Speaker 2: the first division in the army that was kind of

12:49 Speaker 2: designed specifically for nuclear warfare as it was at the time,

12:55 Speaker 2: maybe you should say atomic, but we had five basically

13:02 Speaker 2: five elements, major elements who battle groups. At the time,

13:10 Speaker 2: we were also the first ones to get something called

13:13 Speaker 2: Davy Crockett, which was, if you believe it, it was

13:17 Speaker 2: a four point two inch mortar with a super caliber

13:22 Speaker 2: weapon in other words, the weapon itself outside the thing

13:30 Speaker 2: that went down and propelled it. But we actually had

13:34 Speaker 2: nuclear weapons that we were looking at using on relatively

13:40 Speaker 2: small scales. Yeah, this is you know, the whole concept

13:45 Speaker 2: of how war might be bought in a traditional sense,

13:51 Speaker 2: and that it was interesting watching that develop. You though

13:56 Speaker 2: I was very low on the Totem poll. Remember I

13:58 Speaker 2: went into the private Yeah, moved up the food Shaan.

14:02 Speaker 2: It became a sergerant jump school instructor, but it was

14:07 Speaker 2: it's more looking back now and understanding you know what

14:12 Speaker 2: that development might have been. The whole concepts of warfare

14:16 Speaker 2: has changed dramatically.

14:18 Speaker 1: Oh my god, Yes, I mean drastically has changed. And

14:22 Speaker 1: it's it's you know, kind of ever since the atomic

14:26 Speaker 1: ever since Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I feel like warfare has

14:30 Speaker 1: been in you know, a constant flux of this you know,

14:34 Speaker 1: ever advancing landscape, if you will. And you know, as

14:40 Speaker 1: as someone who's in you know, as someone who is

14:43 Speaker 1: a part of now the world's most powerful military like period,

14:50 Speaker 1: hands down period. How you know, the red threat, the

14:57 Speaker 1: red scare? You know how prevalent was that in the

15:00 Speaker 1: country when you when you enlisted.

15:05 Speaker 2: Before that it had become what you know what duck

15:09 Speaker 2: and cover means. Yes, but yeah, that was something we

15:13 Speaker 2: were taught as grade school kids. Was the idea that

15:17 Speaker 2: you you know, we believe you would not have done

15:20 Speaker 2: any get under your desk and cover if a nuclear

15:25 Speaker 2: weapons that It was interesting. I mentioned I was in Lacrosse, Wisconsin, right,

15:30 Speaker 2: and even going back because I do remember bits of

15:34 Speaker 2: World War two and blackouts, uh that were there, and

15:40 Speaker 2: this is one where you had a national enterprise. I mean,

15:43 Speaker 2: everybody was concerned. Lacrosse, Wisconsin is in a place where

15:49 Speaker 2: no aircraft at the time could possibly have reached many

15:53 Speaker 2: places in the world, you know, you know this idea

15:57 Speaker 2: of Soviets coming in, but that was still mindset. And

16:02 Speaker 2: well even World War two it was good Germans fly

16:06 Speaker 2: in and roped that. Interestingly, we had a German pow camp. Uh,

16:13 Speaker 2: not that many miles from the cost Wisconsin. Germans were

16:18 Speaker 2: actually brought in and they kept in the US as

16:22 Speaker 2: POWs really, and that was you know, again from the

16:26 Speaker 2: mindset we were still aware of worried could there be

16:31 Speaker 2: a breakout? Good German prisoners escape from the camp.

16:37 Speaker 1: No, No, these are separate warfare So yeah, these are

16:41 Speaker 1: separate Germans than obviously the scientists that came over in

16:46 Speaker 1: paper clip. These are more just like war criminals that

16:52 Speaker 1: are in this the camp.

16:54 Speaker 2: No, the prisoners of prisoners of war. Remember this is

16:59 Speaker 2: during the war itself. If people were captured were actually

17:02 Speaker 2: brought back, someone brought back to the US right, right,

17:06 Speaker 2: So it was just like if you were shot down

17:10 Speaker 2: over Germany you went into a German pow camp. We

17:14 Speaker 2: had people as have been captured and they just didn't

17:18 Speaker 2: keep them in theater.

17:19 Speaker 1: Wow, that's that's And to end up in of all

17:22 Speaker 1: places in Wisconsin, you know, not just kind of, I mean,

17:29 Speaker 1: I guess it makes sense though in the long scheme, so.

17:33 Speaker 2: How Longthically, that area of Wisconsin was very German. My

17:40 Speaker 2: first Sabellian job was the g Heilman Brewing Company, German

17:47 Speaker 2: Brewing Company of it.

17:48 Speaker 1: Oh, my god, of course it is, of course it

17:51 Speaker 1: would be uh that my god. And yeah, I mean

17:56 Speaker 1: I just you know, for for me, for someone like me,

18:00 Speaker 1: you know, obviously, living in the time we live in

18:02 Speaker 1: right now, it's hard to understand, you know, if it's

18:07 Speaker 1: ever really been this bad, right, have tensions ever? You know,

18:12 Speaker 1: seemed like this geopolitically, and I think you know, it's

18:18 Speaker 1: if we don't learn from our past, we're doomed to

18:20 Speaker 1: repeat it. And you know, it seems like we didn't,

18:24 Speaker 1: we haven't learned from the past, because here we are today,

18:29 Speaker 1: you know, on the brink of some sort of war,

18:35 Speaker 1: and it's scary.

18:38 Speaker 2: Well, I might mention and this is pass forward many

18:42 Speaker 2: decades now, twenty two thousand and six or something like that.

18:49 Speaker 2: I was then a senior fellow at the Joint Special

18:52 Speaker 2: Operations University. I wrote the first monograph and it was

18:57 Speaker 2: titled the Changing Nature of War and took a lot

19:01 Speaker 2: of heat on that because philosophically, they're saying, the nature

19:05 Speaker 2: of war doesn't change, only how you prosecute it does.

19:09 Speaker 2: And my argument was, no, it's the whole nature of

19:15 Speaker 2: war has changed, and I think we're going through a

19:18 Speaker 2: lot of that now trying to evolve. If you watch

19:22 Speaker 2: you know Russian by the way, you have to watch

19:25 Speaker 2: because I sometimes interpose or juxtapose Soviet and Russian. I

19:32 Speaker 2: grew up in the subject. But yeah, they're invasion and

19:36 Speaker 2: the things that have changed certainly tactically, if not strategically

19:41 Speaker 2: because of Ukraine, and military to day is going through

19:47 Speaker 2: considerable gyrations trying to figure out just what does that

19:51 Speaker 2: look like, particularly when you add the information component to it,

19:55 Speaker 2: as well as electronic warfare and all of those sorts

19:58 Speaker 2: of things.

20:00 Speaker 1: Now. Space great, great point, great point, because you know

20:07 Speaker 1: that's something you know, I would say that's probably the

20:10 Speaker 1: frontier right now. Right, is these space based weapons or

20:15 Speaker 1: these hypersonic weapons, they're.

20:18 Speaker 2: A different The hypersonic has to do with the speed

20:23 Speaker 2: of delivery. Yes, space space weapons. Well, we got to

20:27 Speaker 2: the point where you basically almost can't operate without space.

20:33 Speaker 2: The downside was, when I was a young troop, one

20:36 Speaker 2: thing you had to do is learn how to read

20:38 Speaker 2: a map, and you don't figure out where you go

20:42 Speaker 2: and PLoP from point A to point B in that right.

20:46 Speaker 2: And now, of course, as all everybody's got a car

20:49 Speaker 2: of GPS, that's amazing, but we didn't have GPS or

20:56 Speaker 2: even as a concept. And one of the things that

20:59 Speaker 2: just happened there's one that was taken away if on uh,

21:02 Speaker 2: I am young troops don't know how to navigate without

21:07 Speaker 2: the space based system. But lord, what all the intel

21:12 Speaker 2: they provide and everything like that. The current conflict is,

21:16 Speaker 2: you know, do you have anti satellite systems for instance?

21:21 Speaker 1: Right? Yeah, And some of this will.

21:23 Speaker 2: Actually bleed into what you want to talk about UFOs

21:26 Speaker 2: and that, Yeah, how do you tell at difference.

21:31 Speaker 1: Right on a like on a radar? How do you tell?

21:34 Speaker 2: You know?

21:34 Speaker 1: And that sometimes kind of scares me. I mean we

21:37 Speaker 1: look at things like you know, the nineteen sixty seven

21:41 Speaker 1: Malmstream incident, or the incident that took place in what

21:46 Speaker 1: is now Ukraine but the former Soviet Union, where instead

21:50 Speaker 1: of the nuclear weapons being turned off, they were allegedly

21:54 Speaker 1: turned on.

21:55 Speaker 3: And you know.

21:58 Speaker 1: When when a situation like that, you know, it just

22:01 Speaker 1: takes one mistake, one miscalculation, and you fire on your

22:08 Speaker 1: enemy and you know it.

22:11 Speaker 2: But that's all of these things are automated, the decision

22:18 Speaker 2: making process. If you read Annie Jacobson's new book Nuclear Warfare. Yeah,

22:26 Speaker 2: and just as the president has six minutes of notification

22:32 Speaker 2: to make a decision.

22:34 Speaker 1: That's not enough time.

22:35 Speaker 2: And after that everything is automated. And that's why a

22:40 Speaker 2: single mistake or miscalculation is so absolutely critical. Yeah, her

22:47 Speaker 2: comment on seventy two seconds to the end of the world.

22:52 Speaker 1: Correct. And we have this like very weird policy that

22:57 Speaker 1: no one seems to bat an eye at. It's you

23:00 Speaker 1: use it, the use it or lose it kind of deal.

23:02 Speaker 1: So you know, she she really that book is quite haunting.

23:07 Speaker 1: Like reading it, I had anxiety. I had a real

23:10 Speaker 1: big I had anxiety because who in the world, I mean,

23:14 Speaker 1: you're saying, you know, let's play hypothetical, right, now, and okay,

23:18 Speaker 1: you're Donald Trump, right, this guy is already a wild

23:22 Speaker 1: card in my opinion, right, you know he's a wild card.

23:27 Speaker 1: To just leave it at that. So what happens if

23:31 Speaker 1: he is put in a situation where he has six minutes? Right,

23:36 Speaker 1: and that's being generous, right, because two of the minutes

23:40 Speaker 1: maybe you know, people's hair on fire and it takes

23:43 Speaker 1: a minute to get you know, situated, because you know,

23:45 Speaker 1: the situation is really really dire, and you know, maybe

23:48 Speaker 1: he doesn't have the right people in the right places,

23:51 Speaker 1: so they're unprepared. All right, let's keep going down the line.

23:55 Speaker 1: Now he's given a taco bell menu of places to it,

24:00 Speaker 1: and he's got to choose which was the hit, like

24:03 Speaker 1: he's ordering.

24:05 Speaker 2: That's all automated, has to be. People cannot think question

24:11 Speaker 2: enough to respond.

24:14 Speaker 1: Do you do you have any insight to what? So

24:16 Speaker 1: if it did go down? What is the nuclear football?

24:20 Speaker 1: What what is it meant to represent? What does it do?

24:24 Speaker 1: If it is automated?

24:26 Speaker 2: Basically a go no go switch? Really, after that everything

24:31 Speaker 2: would take over and move very quickly. Now where I

24:36 Speaker 2: see a more critical problem. I didn't know this is

24:41 Speaker 2: the area we're going to be too into me my view,

24:45 Speaker 2: one of the greatest dangers that Trump has brought along

24:50 Speaker 2: was the degradation of NATO. NY all exists because of

24:56 Speaker 2: trust and confidence in the United States and our nuclear umbrella.

25:01 Speaker 2: Should Russia do something bad, all of NATAL response, But

25:06 Speaker 2: they're reliant on the US. Although you know, France and

25:10 Speaker 2: Britain are both nuclear declared states. It's the American arsenal.

25:18 Speaker 2: And now he's saying maybe we will, maybe we won't.

25:22 Speaker 2: What does that tell them? Tells everybody let's go see

25:27 Speaker 2: and develop nuclear weapons. I don't know if you're familiar

25:31 Speaker 2: with the guy the name of a Hugh Khan who

25:34 Speaker 2: was from Pakistan. He's the one who developed the Pakistan

25:39 Speaker 2: nuclear weapon but then went on the open market. He

25:43 Speaker 2: overtly assisted North Korea development. But this means that the ability,

25:53 Speaker 2: the information about how to do this has been spread

25:57 Speaker 2: to many other countries. Uh. That's in my view, very

26:03 Speaker 2: very dangerous and particularly if you've got people, well, there's

26:07 Speaker 2: a lot more thinking that goes into this than just

26:10 Speaker 2: you know, how do you use it? And the whole

26:13 Speaker 2: deterrent issues are terribly terribly complex. Well, what happens if

26:21 Speaker 2: some third world country or God forbid, you know, a

26:27 Speaker 2: terrorist organization gets.

26:29 Speaker 1: Ahead and and pops on it like a state bad actor.

26:33 Speaker 2: Yeah, it gets terribly complex and very bad, very fast.

26:39 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, I don't wanna, I don't wanna.

26:43 Speaker 1: I know we have a we kind of deviated. But

26:46 Speaker 1: it's okay because this conversation is when I you know,

26:49 Speaker 1: it's one that I think it's important to have, and

26:53 Speaker 1: you know, you're just a very versatile person to talk to.

26:57 Speaker 1: But one of the things that scares me is the

27:00 Speaker 1: fact that, you know, like the New Jersey drone situation

27:04 Speaker 1: that just occurred. Uh, you know, the UFO community kind

27:08 Speaker 1: of takes it and they run with it as as

27:11 Speaker 1: you know, potential UAP sightings. And that's all well and good,

27:15 Speaker 1: but you also had members of Congress saying that there

27:18 Speaker 1: was an Iranian mothership off the coast and there was

27:23 Speaker 1: a dirty nuclear bomb that was snuck into a New

27:26 Speaker 1: Jersey port. And you know, I had members of Congress.

27:30 Speaker 1: I won't say who because I don't want to do that,

27:33 Speaker 1: but I had members of Congress telling me that I

27:35 Speaker 1: live in Boston. You know, if something goes off in

27:38 Speaker 1: New York, New Jersey, I have just as much to

27:42 Speaker 1: lose you know. I mean it's not it's we're very

27:45 Speaker 1: close so that the first.

27:48 Speaker 2: When the first one goes off and retaliation starts training,

27:54 Speaker 2: you just don't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

27:57 Speaker 1: Correct. And it seems that you know, the these this

28:01 Speaker 1: politicization of not just warfare, but the politics that that

28:07 Speaker 1: that contribute in and conflate warfare. Uh, it's it's this,

28:13 Speaker 1: it's this us or me, it's you or me, it's

28:17 Speaker 1: one or the other, left or right, red or blue.

28:20 Speaker 1: And it's like, oh, guys, pump the brakes, pump the breaks,

28:23 Speaker 1: because you know, we we are all human beings here

28:28 Speaker 1: and we need to coexist. Like there is nothing that

28:31 Speaker 1: we can't do if we are our minds are are,

28:34 Speaker 1: if we're striving towards one goal as a human race,

28:39 Speaker 1: there's nothing we couldn't do. But we're so divided, down

28:43 Speaker 1: to the down to the group, down to the how

28:46 Speaker 1: long your hair is? We love to to subject ourselves

28:49 Speaker 1: to these these these groups and and and divide each other,

28:53 Speaker 1: divide ourselves. So does that ever do that? Does that ever?

28:57 Speaker 1: You know, does that ever bother.

29:02 Speaker 2: Constantly? That bother me? No? I think we have you know,

29:10 Speaker 2: tremendous problems right now. And that's why, uh. One of

29:16 Speaker 2: Trump's big thing this went back to the first one,

29:19 Speaker 2: is that I like to be uh uh you know,

29:23 Speaker 2: we can't figure out what I'm going to do, yuh.

29:27 Speaker 2: And that is the antithesis of what is needed for stability.

29:34 Speaker 2: You have to have assurance that if A then be

29:38 Speaker 2: and follow that set of rules. And and that's why

29:44 Speaker 2: the destabilization of failure to actively support NATO, for instance, uh,

29:52 Speaker 2: actively support Ukraine. I think what we're doing there at

29:56 Speaker 2: the moment is that's internal, that's quite UFO's political situation.

30:02 Speaker 2: But I think our position on that is just totally irresponsible.

30:08 Speaker 2: And the switching side, and particularly again it's back then.

30:13 Speaker 2: My whole military career was the Soviets of the big

30:19 Speaker 2: bad guys that are out there, and now we seem

30:22 Speaker 2: to be sighting with what happened. It was the former

30:27 Speaker 2: Soviet Union Russia. And our reliability is just not it's

30:40 Speaker 2: not trustworthy. The United States is not no longer trustworthy.

30:44 Speaker 1: Right, And I mean, you got you got countries doing

30:48 Speaker 1: You've got countries really like signing up and really wanting to,

30:52 Speaker 1: you know, because while we've been at war you know,

30:55 Speaker 1: or at least spending. You know, our military budget is

31:00 Speaker 1: you know, I think it combined out ranks you know,

31:04 Speaker 1: most countries. And you know, while we've been doing that,

31:10 Speaker 1: China has been you know, building themselves up and you know,

31:16 Speaker 1: say what you want about you know, whether you agree

31:18 Speaker 1: with them or not. But now they're you know, they

31:21 Speaker 1: got their Belton Road Initiative where they're you know building, Uh,

31:25 Speaker 1: they're developing other the countries that we won't do business

31:28 Speaker 1: with because you know they don't meet certain criteria. Well

31:31 Speaker 1: China doesn't care. Let us build your highways so we

31:34 Speaker 1: can land you know, military outfits on them if need be,

31:37 Speaker 1: you know, and uh that's minor.

31:40 Speaker 2: But the whole view, the Belton Road Initiative was brilliant policy.

31:49 Speaker 2: As you may know, I have been an overall hundred countries,

31:52 Speaker 2: have been all over north southeast West Africa. Every place

31:56 Speaker 2: you go in Africa you find China. You find by

32:01 Speaker 2: their influence and the big two big advantages they have

32:06 Speaker 2: one because they were a strategic approach to it, and

32:11 Speaker 2: they batists for decades. And yes there are problems there.

32:16 Speaker 2: It's not just cut and dried, but they've got a brand.

32:19 Speaker 2: They have continuity and we have these dramatic plops. And

32:25 Speaker 2: you know, I guess the one of the things that

32:28 Speaker 2: they're discussing now is quote a golden Dome, like we're

32:31 Speaker 2: going to build a multi multiplex issue of the Iron Dome. Yeah. Sorry,

32:39 Speaker 2: that sounds to me like Star Wars two point zero.

32:44 Speaker 2: And remember Edward Teller was a personal friend.

32:47 Speaker 1: The guys who designed that, well, yeah, I'd love to

32:52 Speaker 1: get into Yeah.

32:54 Speaker 2: No, I thought the Belton Road was brilliant. It was

32:59 Speaker 2: actually stood when we're still being built. But the road

33:04 Speaker 2: between Beijing and Lahas and Tibet, and I studied. I

33:08 Speaker 2: was in Tibet, but standing on the railroad bed that

33:12 Speaker 2: was going in there and the length that it goes

33:18 Speaker 2: there have now traveled all through the various stands. Kazakhstan,

33:23 Speaker 2: by the way, was just amazing to me. When I

33:26 Speaker 2: thought we were going to a third world country, most

33:29 Speaker 2: people would the infrastructure was better than the US in

33:34 Speaker 2: many areas, and the roads and whatnots huge. And now

33:39 Speaker 2: where the stands are are advancing. They have lots of

33:44 Speaker 2: natural resources gas oil in particular, and that's how China

33:49 Speaker 2: is precuring now stands. The various countries there are advancing

33:55 Speaker 2: because of the money is made available from China. But

34:00 Speaker 2: the back to the bulk road building railroads from well

34:07 Speaker 2: east goas but basically Beijing all the way into Europe

34:11 Speaker 2: is just rounut. And from the amerit of time.

34:16 Speaker 1: Issues, I absolutely agree. I absolutely agree, And I like

34:23 Speaker 1: I said, and and and I don't mean to I

34:25 Speaker 1: didn't mean to go on that like like tangent, but

34:27 Speaker 1: I think it was. I think it's appropriate, and uh,

34:30 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's definitely prevalent. And and it's something

34:33 Speaker 1: that I think a lot of Americans are thinking about.

34:35 Speaker 1: You know, just every single weekend. Uh in Boston there

34:40 Speaker 1: are now gatherings let's let's say that. And uh so

34:44 Speaker 1: people you know, uh, people want to talk about it.

34:48 Speaker 1: But you know, obviously I want to talk to you.

34:52 Speaker 1: I want to shift gears a little bit. I want

34:55 Speaker 1: to dive right into Stargate in in the in in

34:59 Speaker 1: that area of things. So what was the atmosphere like

35:03 Speaker 1: inside of a program that was literally training soldiers to

35:08 Speaker 1: see through space and time?

35:11 Speaker 2: Right now, Formally, I was not involved in Stargate. I

35:18 Speaker 2: was working under a general stubble Bind who we were

35:21 Speaker 2: doing some other things like psychokinesis and advances and NLP

35:25 Speaker 2: studies and things like that. But yeah, that was a

35:34 Speaker 2: remote viewing program and of course the Soviets had a

35:38 Speaker 2: system similar. Now, our question really was initially do you

35:45 Speaker 2: go out and find people with the nacial ability or

35:48 Speaker 2: do you train? And of course because of the work

35:52 Speaker 2: of Ingo Swan, who came up with the concept of

35:55 Speaker 2: the matrix, made this a teachable skill course. There's a

36:00 Speaker 2: number of people out there now teaching it. I do

36:05 Speaker 2: want to advise anybody listening caveat emter in other words,

36:12 Speaker 2: be careful on you know who you're training with and

36:15 Speaker 2: that because there's an awful lot of just pure bullshit.

36:20 Speaker 2: The people who I was in the secret program and

36:23 Speaker 2: all this know you weren't The people know each other now.

36:28 Speaker 2: I was involved with the creation of IRVA, which is

36:32 Speaker 2: probably a reasonable place to go from it. That's an

36:35 Speaker 2: International Remote Viewing Association and that was created Good Homes

36:43 Speaker 2: coming up on twenty five years ago or something like that.

36:46 Speaker 2: But it's a good starting point if people want to look.

36:54 Speaker 2: If I can, there's only two people that I actually

36:58 Speaker 2: recommend per se anting, and one's Paul Smith and the

37:02 Speaker 2: other is the legendary Joel mcmonagall.

37:04 Speaker 1: Of course, right, Monroe Institute.

37:07 Speaker 2: Yeah, that.

37:11 Speaker 1: So do you think that remote viewing with that being said,

37:16 Speaker 1: you said it became a teachable skill. Now would that

37:20 Speaker 1: imply or what is your thought on is consciousness? Is

37:27 Speaker 1: it something that the brain develops or instigates or the

37:35 Speaker 1: right is the brain receiver?

37:38 Speaker 2: The brain does not create consciousness. And my view is

37:43 Speaker 2: the other The conscious is fundamental and the physical arises

37:48 Speaker 2: from confidence. This is not new. This goes back to

37:51 Speaker 2: Max Plank. Yeah, you know the people saying that, And

37:55 Speaker 2: that would be my view. The consciousness is one of

38:00 Speaker 2: the things that's related to what we were discussing, this

38:03 Speaker 2: issue of globalization. Uh, in my view, if you're thinking globally,

38:09 Speaker 2: you're thinking too small. Yeah, this is far bigger than

38:14 Speaker 2: just you know, a global issue.

38:18 Speaker 1: Right and and you know, I think it's again I'm

38:22 Speaker 1: on the same boat as you. I definitely think that

38:25 Speaker 1: you know consciousness. I think there there's no way that

38:29 Speaker 1: I think it comes from you know, the human brain

38:35 Speaker 1: or the brain in general, right right, right, And and

38:41 Speaker 1: and that's why we have words like you know, the

38:44 Speaker 1: muse and and the and the root word for music

38:48 Speaker 1: and amusement, and you know all these things, right is

38:52 Speaker 1: is you see that? And and and then we look

38:55 Speaker 1: if we zoom out a little bit and we talk

38:57 Speaker 1: about people like Ed Taylor, if we talk about people

39:00 Speaker 1: like Einstein, Nikola, Tesla, a lot of these great minds

39:07 Speaker 1: have said that they it seems like the universe was

39:11 Speaker 1: working through them as a tool, and they're simply the

39:17 Speaker 1: third party, if you will, right, and it's coming from

39:21 Speaker 1: the oneness. Obviously you know it's not exactly proven, but

39:27 Speaker 1: a lot of these people sound like Tesla and Einstein,

39:31 Speaker 1: sound like they were doing remote viewing, but they just

39:34 Speaker 1: weren't putting that label on it.

39:37 Speaker 2: Well, whereas information comes from yeah, well other way. I

39:42 Speaker 2: was having a discussion with the financial advisor just yesterday

39:46 Speaker 2: on this and he was talking about China stealing our ip.

39:52 Speaker 2: Certainly there's an aggressive effort there. My point was, if

39:56 Speaker 2: you thought of it, its exists. You know, the information

40:00 Speaker 2: out there and can be extracted by others.

40:04 Speaker 1: Right, it's the what is it? Now? Forgive me if

40:08 Speaker 1: I if I miss speaking this, but I forget what

40:12 Speaker 1: the researcher, who the researcher was, But it's like the

40:15 Speaker 1: hundredth ape or something like hundred yeah shell Drake, yes,

40:22 Speaker 1: thank you. So once it's it's almost like and then

40:25 Speaker 1: it's like, you know, they always thought that we couldn't

40:29 Speaker 1: break the mile with like within a certain amount of minutes.

40:32 Speaker 1: But as soon as it was broken that you know,

40:35 Speaker 1: the running or how quick someone can do a mile.

40:38 Speaker 1: As soon as it was broken, then it starts getting

40:41 Speaker 1: broken again and again and again. Right because once it's done,

40:44 Speaker 1: like you said, once the information's there or the abilities there,

40:49 Speaker 1: it seems to be able to be pulled from the ether.

40:52 Speaker 2: Yeah, the model is terribly important. Then you believe they

40:57 Speaker 2: can't be done then or then it has been done.

41:01 Speaker 2: And I've seen many people who devolved things and said,

41:04 Speaker 2: well I didn't know you couldn't do it, which is

41:07 Speaker 2: kind of a critical issue. So developing a model, and

41:13 Speaker 2: I might say, one of the things we do, I

41:15 Speaker 2: mentioned earlier psychokinesis, and we used to teach that the

41:19 Speaker 2: middle bending, and part of what we did in the

41:23 Speaker 2: teaching of it holding up spoons by the way, there's

41:27 Speaker 2: some on the wall behind me there, and the thing

41:31 Speaker 2: was proving to people that it was in fact quite possible.

41:38 Speaker 2: And you know that's a critical issue, is Okay, it

41:41 Speaker 2: can be done if you want a warfare. Thing that

41:45 Speaker 2: I thought was terribly dangerous was struck. Next, this idea

41:52 Speaker 2: of this had to do with the Iranians who were

41:56 Speaker 2: you know, enhancing uranium and there was a process that

42:03 Speaker 2: was going into the computers. It was very sophisticated. But

42:09 Speaker 2: the idea that you could go in and spend up

42:12 Speaker 2: their computers and have them those computers be sending information

42:17 Speaker 2: and everything is you know, running as it is supposed

42:20 Speaker 2: to be when you're actually destroying the substrateuges. Okay, you

42:26 Speaker 2: can do that once. Once you've done that, you've now

42:29 Speaker 2: put the model out and told people all over the world.

42:33 Speaker 2: By the way, here's the kinds of things that can

42:35 Speaker 2: be done.

42:37 Speaker 1: Uh.

42:37 Speaker 2: And it as we were discussing, you know, then it's

42:42 Speaker 2: available and out there. Yeah, yeah, you know that's you know,

42:50 Speaker 2: I've lost your sounds.

42:52 Speaker 1: That's a notion that you know, I think you know,

42:56 Speaker 1: people people like have incorporated it into their lives, but

42:59 Speaker 1: maybe not knowingly. You know, this this idea of like

43:03 Speaker 1: making a willing something into existence or you know writing

43:08 Speaker 1: it down, like writing a goal down, and you know,

43:12 Speaker 1: focusing on it for five to ten seconds every morning, right, like,

43:16 Speaker 1: I will do this, and you know more people are

43:20 Speaker 1: doing that, but they're just not realizing, you know what

43:22 Speaker 1: they're what they're doing kind of is related to this

43:25 Speaker 1: whole idea of consciousness and right and and and you know,

43:32 Speaker 1: these these these very these science let's call them the

43:36 Speaker 1: the scientists that are are are public facing, right, Neil

43:41 Speaker 1: deGrasse Tyson h All those guys, uh, you know, you

43:47 Speaker 1: could you could ask them, are there UFOs? They'll give

43:50 Speaker 1: you some stupid line about you know, proving a negative,

43:54 Speaker 1: disproving a negative or whatever whatever whatever, and they'll say,

43:57 Speaker 1: you know, get me evidence, and the the goalpost always

44:01 Speaker 1: moves for what constitutes evidence. But then you ask them

44:04 Speaker 1: about consciousness and they won't say a goddamn word. Why

44:10 Speaker 1: is that?

44:10 Speaker 2: Well, the fundamental belief systems here, and you start you

44:15 Speaker 2: get to eventually to the economy between materialism and potentially

44:22 Speaker 2: spiritualism or a non material world and the importance of consciousness.

44:29 Speaker 2: But you're back to the issue of is consciousness a

44:33 Speaker 2: product of brain or is something more fundamental? And basically

44:39 Speaker 2: they grew up in an educational system that's totally invested

44:44 Speaker 2: in materialism. A you know, we'll find we can divide

44:50 Speaker 2: things down on the smaller and smaller things will eventually

44:53 Speaker 2: get to the god particle higgs boson. And the problem

44:58 Speaker 2: is we got to the higgs bosons, but then you

45:00 Speaker 2: had pedaquarks and so wait a minute, doesn't word even hypothia.

45:04 Speaker 2: It got smaller and smaller. But it also does not

45:08 Speaker 2: accommodate the issues of when you get into time and

45:13 Speaker 2: space or I think you've mentioned it. The notion of

45:17 Speaker 2: time as a linear process I think is totally wrong.

45:22 Speaker 2: And how you correlate and think about that this is

45:25 Speaker 2: it extraordinarily difficult.

45:28 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean so just the other night, now I

45:30 Speaker 1: want you to, I really want to. I wanted to

45:33 Speaker 1: talk to you about this because there is something that

45:37 Speaker 1: I've been thinking about and it's kind of been a

45:39 Speaker 1: thought experiment of mind. I'm writing a script, like a

45:42 Speaker 1: YouTube script, like a narration about this, an episode about this.

45:47 Speaker 1: But given what you've seen with you know, remote viewing,

45:53 Speaker 1: with you know, all of all of that uh information

45:58 Speaker 1: that you that you have, I mean, if you think

46:02 Speaker 1: about it, if our consciousness and let's work off the

46:06 Speaker 1: notion that our consciousness is not based like you know,

46:11 Speaker 1: it's not something that derived from our brain. It's something else. Right,

46:16 Speaker 1: Let's let's keep that notion and let's say, okay, we

46:20 Speaker 1: talk about time travel my consciousness. You know, I can

46:25 Speaker 1: think back, you know, a smell will hit me, a

46:28 Speaker 1: song will play, something will come on that will remind

46:31 Speaker 1: me of a memory, and my consciousness in real time

46:36 Speaker 1: can bring me back to that moment and also experience

46:41 Speaker 1: the now at almost the same time. And also we

46:46 Speaker 1: can think ahead about possible futures, almost like a quantum

46:49 Speaker 1: computer that we can, you know, think about a meeting

46:52 Speaker 1: that is a week from now and how it might

46:55 Speaker 1: play out. So, you know, they say that we can't

46:58 Speaker 1: time travel, but are we always time traveling? What is timing?

47:04 Speaker 2: Well, the issue is terribly complex, but a lot of work,

47:10 Speaker 2: some work has been done what we call retro causation,

47:14 Speaker 2: in other words, changing things in the past. I mean,

47:17 Speaker 2: give you get the guy's name, but this is kind

47:22 Speaker 2: of critical. What they did is they took medical files

47:28 Speaker 2: on I forget what the disease was, but they are

47:32 Speaker 2: maybe a series of them. And this was an intervention

47:37 Speaker 2: of prayer. And what they did is they prayed for

47:44 Speaker 2: a subset and not the other. Now, remember, in conventional wisdom,

47:52 Speaker 2: this has already occurred. So you're looking at medical records

47:56 Speaker 2: of things that should have occurred. And when you went

47:59 Speaker 2: back and examine it, find that the ones who were

48:03 Speaker 2: prayed over, although the prayer took place from a time perspective,

48:08 Speaker 2: much after all of the medical interventions had occurred, and

48:15 Speaker 2: you found out there was a significant change. You know,

48:20 Speaker 2: does that mean you somehow subconsciously selected the files that

48:26 Speaker 2: I mean right? Does look like you can change the past?

48:31 Speaker 3: Right?

48:32 Speaker 1: And that would you know? Because people talk about like

48:34 Speaker 1: something like these paradoxes, right, And that's why that's why

48:40 Speaker 1: that time travel, or at least reverse you know, backwards

48:43 Speaker 1: time travel couldn't be possible. And I'm saying, you know,

48:46 Speaker 1: to myself, I'm saying, well, what what is now?

48:50 Speaker 2: But?

48:51 Speaker 1: Or what is the present? Except I mean, what is

48:55 Speaker 1: the present if not just a bunch of now is

48:59 Speaker 1: compiling upon each other?

49:01 Speaker 2: Right.

49:01 Speaker 1: It's a bunch of right now, right now, right now?

49:04 Speaker 1: You know, And we obviously we've socially agreed to something

49:08 Speaker 1: called you know, the time, so that we could meet

49:12 Speaker 1: and farm and do all these things. It's really just

49:15 Speaker 1: a social construct. It's a social agreement. And I feel

49:20 Speaker 1: like we might also have that kind of consensus reality

49:23 Speaker 1: when it comes to UFOs, right, we have the whole

49:27 Speaker 1: world is not decided that UFOs are real. Some people have,

49:31 Speaker 1: but some people have it, and we're still working off

49:35 Speaker 1: the notion that there is no such thing.

49:37 Speaker 2: My notion there is that UFOs must be real, because

49:43 Speaker 2: all that means is there are things that are flying

49:45 Speaker 2: that you cannot identify. It doesn't say anything about the

49:49 Speaker 2: origin or anything like that. I also in my UFO presentations,

49:56 Speaker 2: I usually start out with a slide that says, we

50:00 Speaker 2: what do you mean, how do you describe a UFO?

50:03 Speaker 2: I got little balls of light, and I've got craft

50:07 Speaker 2: miles across hard craft and thousands and thousands of variations

50:14 Speaker 2: in between. So what's your cutoff or what you expect?

50:19 Speaker 2: You know, the whole discussion on orbs is one of

50:22 Speaker 2: the things now that has gained quite a bit of

50:27 Speaker 2: U is an orb a UFO. Well, certainly something is flying,

50:33 Speaker 2: it's often unidentified and as you know there wrote with

50:38 Speaker 2: Chris Bledsoe, who did a lot of you know, he

50:42 Speaker 2: does calls in UFO is on a continuous That's another

50:46 Speaker 2: issue of mental interaction between humans and orbs that do appear,

50:53 Speaker 2: and he does it on a routine basis. I might mention,

50:57 Speaker 2: I'm getting more and more people just call or email

51:02 Speaker 2: saying GEO on outside and call and these things are happening.

51:07 Speaker 2: And these are are not the Chris Bledsoe's who have

51:11 Speaker 2: this innate and the monstrability, just average people going out

51:16 Speaker 2: and trying it and if it doesn't work.

51:20 Speaker 1: Right And and Chris is a good friend of mine,

51:22 Speaker 1: and I'm going to be seeing him at Contact in

51:24 Speaker 1: the Desert uh in about a month. I'm really looking

51:28 Speaker 1: forward to that as well as you know, a bunch

51:31 Speaker 1: of a bunch of amazing speakers and stuff like that.

51:36 Speaker 1: But but beside that, yeah, I mean, and and the

51:39 Speaker 1: thing about these orbs, I want to I want to

51:42 Speaker 1: get your opinion on it, because you know, Chris obviously

51:45 Speaker 1: assigns a bit of a meaning to them, and he

51:49 Speaker 1: you know, subscribes that they're angelic. And you know, he

51:53 Speaker 1: talks about the woman in white in your in your career,

51:56 Speaker 1: have you heard of of of any other experiences that were,

52:03 Speaker 1: you know, maybe be similar to this.

52:06 Speaker 2: Oh, these are very new. Now again what you said,

52:12 Speaker 2: this issue of he ascribes certain values to that right,

52:16 Speaker 2: that is angelic. I'm not sure how to wrap your

52:23 Speaker 2: head around that. Having said that, you know, look forward

52:26 Speaker 2: for his book. Yeah, this, amazing things do happen. And

52:33 Speaker 2: I think there's a natural tendency to try to come

52:36 Speaker 2: up with some kind of rational explanation, right, although it

52:40 Speaker 2: may well exceed our ability to comprehend now.

52:46 Speaker 1: And and you know what's I really think it's you know,

52:50 Speaker 1: I've been doing a lot of studying on on on

52:53 Speaker 1: Chris Bloodzone and what he talks about, because you know,

52:56 Speaker 1: Diana Pasoka another she's a religious scholar. I'm sure you're familiar. Yeah,

53:01 Speaker 1: I mean she you know, she's talked about how what

53:04 Speaker 1: he describes as you know, what we talk about his orbs. Uh,

53:09 Speaker 1: you know that is actually more that is a more

53:13 Speaker 1: accurate description of angels in in the texts than you know,

53:19 Speaker 1: the cherub that we we often see. Oh and and

53:22 Speaker 1: and I find that fascinating. I find that fascinating because

53:26 Speaker 1: other people have said that's you know, something similar or

53:29 Speaker 1: along the similar lines. You know, Jacques Valais and and

53:34 Speaker 1: his Passport to Magonia. You know, he says that, uh,

53:38 Speaker 1: you know, the name is simply changed throughout time from

53:42 Speaker 1: fairies to gods to what is now UFOs and aliens. Uh,

53:47 Speaker 1: you know what is your take on that?

53:50 Speaker 2: Oh? Of course your friend yea, he wrote, he wrote

53:54 Speaker 2: a forward for my UFO books. I appreciate it. Uh, yeah,

54:00 Speaker 2: is exactly right.

54:02 Speaker 1: Now.

54:02 Speaker 2: There's also there's interactions with beings, and we talk about ET.

54:08 Speaker 2: I come down, by the way, against what's called the

54:11 Speaker 2: et hypothesis, extraterrestrial hypothesis that little great guys from Zeta reticular,

54:21 Speaker 2: not because these events do happen, they absolutely do, but

54:26 Speaker 2: because that answer is too simple. And I think now

54:31 Speaker 2: the discussion on ultraterrestrials, for instance, are we talking about

54:36 Speaker 2: something as interdimensional or temporal distortion that you send a

54:42 Speaker 2: time travel or things of this, And as you know

54:48 Speaker 2: my background and your death experiences where we are talking

54:53 Speaker 2: about discarnate entities and work with the mediumship, that all

54:59 Speaker 2: of these things seem to have some validity, and my

55:02 Speaker 2: views are all tied together in ways that's almost incomprehensible

55:09 Speaker 2: to us to explain.

55:13 Speaker 1: I would agree, I would agree. I think then I

55:16 Speaker 1: think the ultraterrestrial hypothesis, like now that we're we're starting

55:20 Speaker 1: to open up the things like that, and it's not

55:23 Speaker 1: just you know, like you said, little gray guys or

55:25 Speaker 1: little green guys or whatever from the star system. This

55:30 Speaker 1: it's it's it's now we started to think about we're

55:33 Speaker 1: starting to broaden our horizons.

55:35 Speaker 2: Well, e remember that there are reports of interactions between

55:41 Speaker 2: humans and sentient non humans throughout the entirety of human history. Absolutely,

55:48 Speaker 2: that they happen to fly in a little ten cans

55:50 Speaker 2: as a fairly new wrinkle compared to these other interactions

55:56 Speaker 2: that have taken place. And all cultures out.

56:00 Speaker 1: The world, right and and and and cultures that we

56:03 Speaker 1: are taught in school, they would have no way of

56:10 Speaker 1: ever communicating with each other. That's what we're taught. And

56:13 Speaker 1: we're told that they all just decided I mean they

56:16 Speaker 1: were I mean you could argue what we talked about

56:20 Speaker 1: earlier could be, you know, the solution to the pyramid problem.

56:25 Speaker 1: You know, once it's done, then the knowledge is there

56:28 Speaker 1: to grab. And that's how all these cultures have pyramids.

56:32 Speaker 1: But how are all these pyramids, you know, so advanced

56:37 Speaker 1: not only mathematically, but they're placed in astrological perfection down

56:43 Speaker 1: to you know, a couple of degrees and account for procession.

56:48 Speaker 1: All of a sudden, things start lining up to Oryan's belt,

56:51 Speaker 1: and you know, it's we're taught. I think we're taught.

56:55 Speaker 1: The world is very black and white, and it's not

56:58 Speaker 1: until we get out and experience.

57:00 Speaker 2: The didactic world, and uh, pointing out doesn't hold up.

57:06 Speaker 2: You're familiar with Ayahuasco.

57:09 Speaker 1: Absolutely, my friend, absolutely.

57:12 Speaker 2: I now admit that I've done is not my cup

57:14 Speaker 2: of tea. But my wife is sort of a devotee.

57:18 Speaker 2: But having said that, you know, the symbology thought used

57:28 Speaker 2: to be that they couldn't possibly have known about, you know,

57:31 Speaker 2: a pyramids and that. And yet if you get into

57:37 Speaker 2: the visions that occur, I found them, you know pretty

57:42 Speaker 2: much from things that you would see around the world.

57:45 Speaker 2: So therefore the ancient Shamans did not have to uh,

57:51 Speaker 2: you know, have direct access to it. And that's the information.

57:55 Speaker 2: How do you build a pyramid or do you place

57:58 Speaker 2: it in? That is, you know, can be transported instantaneously,

58:03 Speaker 2: so you don't have to have physical contact between cultures

58:07 Speaker 2: who have that occur.

58:09 Speaker 1: Bingo, bingo. Do you now in the program working with nids?

58:17 Speaker 1: And we'll talk about nids in a minute, but working

58:20 Speaker 1: in the program, did you guys ever try to solve

58:23 Speaker 1: for how the pyramids were built. No, No, now, okay, that's.

58:33 Speaker 2: A huge You're talking about huge things, and the books

58:37 Speaker 2: and the whole schools of thought on both the information

58:42 Speaker 2: and the alignment and all the things that you mentioned before.

58:47 Speaker 1: I wonder because you know, obviously, like you know, I've

58:51 Speaker 1: talked to the estate of Ingo Swan. I've had the

58:54 Speaker 1: I think it's the niece's I think it's the niece

58:57 Speaker 1: on the show I've had. And then I've talked to

59:01 Speaker 1: other remote viewers and stuff, and you know, the the

59:05 Speaker 1: the the famous r V sessions of like Mars and

59:11 Speaker 1: the moon and beings that may have inhabited Mars at

59:17 Speaker 1: the time. And then you know, I'm also having these

59:22 Speaker 1: pyramidal uh and then obelisk type structures uh. And and

59:28 Speaker 1: you know, do you think there's any possibility that a

59:32 Speaker 1: cataclysm happened on Mars and maybe that's why and they

59:38 Speaker 1: left Mars and came here.

59:42 Speaker 2: Well, there's several questions in that. It's not one simple one,

59:45 Speaker 2: right predict When you say is there any possibility, you

59:50 Speaker 2: almost have to say yes, is there ability? You know,

59:54 Speaker 2: that's a totally different question. And I think, however, it

59:59 Speaker 2: made the whole noise spend permia that this you know,

1:00:04 Speaker 2: life has been sent out throughout the universe and created

1:00:08 Speaker 2: in parallel by the way I might mention. One of

1:00:12 Speaker 2: the early questions that always comes up is there life

1:00:15 Speaker 2: elsewhere in the universe? And the answer to that question

1:00:19 Speaker 2: is yes. And you don't have to believe in any

1:00:22 Speaker 2: of these concepts. It's just pure mathematics. With the number

1:00:29 Speaker 2: of inhabitable planets we now know exist, I mean, it

1:00:35 Speaker 2: gets into the Sceptelians, that's what twenty one zeros.

1:00:41 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a ridiculous number.

1:00:43 Speaker 2: If you're a pure materialist. The probability that you know,

1:00:48 Speaker 2: the materials came together, the electrical storm or whatever occurred,

1:00:53 Speaker 2: and life evolved from that from single cellular to multicellular

1:00:58 Speaker 2: light up to an including setio being probability is almost

1:01:04 Speaker 2: a certainty that that would.

1:01:06 Speaker 1: Have happened, and absolutely and if you think about it,

1:01:09 Speaker 1: you know, the notion of the thing, you know, what

1:01:11 Speaker 1: we were talking about earlier is if something works, If

1:01:15 Speaker 1: it works, then it's out there in the ether. Now,

1:01:20 Speaker 1: who's to say that biology and the universe doesn't work.

1:01:26 Speaker 1: You know, we look from the micro to the macro

1:01:29 Speaker 1: and we see very similar so you know, obviously biology

1:01:34 Speaker 1: the human form that you know, the head, two arms,

1:01:37 Speaker 1: to two legs, that form seems to work. So once

1:01:44 Speaker 1: it works one place, does does it start popping up

1:01:48 Speaker 1: in another?

1:01:49 Speaker 2: So?

1:01:50 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's something that I find interesting.

1:01:55 Speaker 2: Well, the answer is almost certainly yes, right, and that's why.

1:02:00 Speaker 2: And that's again just a pure materialist.

1:02:02 Speaker 1: Approach, right, and and and so, and that's you know,

1:02:07 Speaker 1: one of the things that I find fascinating is that

1:02:10 Speaker 1: is the idea that you know, these these UFOs they

1:02:14 Speaker 1: may not be just like you said, they may not

1:02:17 Speaker 1: just be coming from you know, another star system. It's

1:02:20 Speaker 1: actually more likely that there are infinite earths and infinite

1:02:26 Speaker 1: you know, universe is an infinite you know this, this

1:02:29 Speaker 1: and this, So they might be coming here from you know,

1:02:34 Speaker 1: not just a different a different uh planet, but they

1:02:40 Speaker 1: may be coming from Earth in a different universe. Who knows?

1:02:44 Speaker 1: Like that the possibility they're endless here.

1:02:47 Speaker 2: Well, the question that all those arises initially is where

1:02:51 Speaker 2: do they come from? And I don't think that's even

1:02:55 Speaker 2: a valid question right now.

1:02:59 Speaker 1: Yeah, well it doesn't. What matters is it is?

1:03:03 Speaker 2: It?

1:03:03 Speaker 1: Is it happening? And I want to talk about KNIDS

1:03:07 Speaker 1: and how did you get involved with NIDS because I

1:03:11 Speaker 1: want to talk about Skinwalker Ranch and Robert Bigelow. Uh,

1:03:17 Speaker 1: how did that all come and how did you get

1:03:20 Speaker 1: involved in that after your military career?

1:03:24 Speaker 2: Well, I had another career in between there, and that

1:03:29 Speaker 2: was I was at Soluble Special Laboratory and that's for

1:03:32 Speaker 2: the whole issue on unlethal weapons and all of that

1:03:35 Speaker 2: came up. Having said that this is one of those inexplicable,

1:03:43 Speaker 2: certaindefinite events that can't happen. But did I had first

1:03:50 Speaker 2: met Bob at mi T. There was a conference that

1:03:55 Speaker 2: John Mack and Dave Fritcher were handling and it was

1:03:59 Speaker 2: on the abduction's phenomenon. I had the misfortunes were fortunate

1:04:08 Speaker 2: as well to actually have to give a presentation right

1:04:13 Speaker 2: after John Mack, which is a tough, tough fact to follow.

1:04:18 Speaker 1: Yeah.

1:04:18 Speaker 2: Yeah, correlation between near death experiences and UFOs. This was

1:04:25 Speaker 2: just being discussing. We're talking eighty two at the time

1:04:30 Speaker 2: I had met him there, just a quick handshake and

1:04:34 Speaker 2: that fast forward a few months, maybe you're that must

1:04:44 Speaker 2: have been actually years because I was having a small

1:04:47 Speaker 2: gathering at my husband was living in Santa Fe working

1:04:50 Speaker 2: up at the lab, and a number of the people

1:04:55 Speaker 2: you mentioned were there. I think Shock was there, held

1:04:58 Speaker 2: put Off, and a number of others, and just kind

1:05:04 Speaker 2: of a generic discussion of where do we go with

1:05:07 Speaker 2: all of this? It was a follow on to the

1:05:10 Speaker 2: work I've done with the Interagency Group on UFOs before.

1:05:16 Speaker 2: It's Sunday morning and we're about to split up, going

1:05:20 Speaker 2: to take people back to Albuquerque to the aircraft, airplanes

1:05:27 Speaker 2: and phone rings, and this guy says, Hi, I'm Robert Bigelow.

1:05:31 Speaker 2: I've heard about you. You know, have you got any

1:05:36 Speaker 2: interesting projects with something that might need funding? I said, well,

1:05:42 Speaker 2: standing in my house in the kitchens at this moment,

1:05:46 Speaker 2: of the people who might do that. So that was

1:05:49 Speaker 2: the first interaction. He then we talked about the Santa

1:05:54 Speaker 2: Fe Institute. It was still the main feature. There was

1:06:00 Speaker 2: Murray Gilmant theoretical physicis and that, and so he taught

1:06:06 Speaker 2: about buying Santa Fe Institute and their big thing was

1:06:13 Speaker 2: chaos theory, and said this was probably not a good

1:06:19 Speaker 2: fit just because you got huge egos on both sides.

1:06:24 Speaker 2: But anyway, so he decided to create an organization and

1:06:31 Speaker 2: they brought me over. I was the first one Indians.

1:06:36 Speaker 2: But this started when I was at Santa Fe. But

1:06:38 Speaker 2: he wanted to We talked about doing it there, he

1:06:40 Speaker 2: said no, he's kind of a hands eye guy, like

1:06:44 Speaker 2: to have physical control. Said they had to be here.

1:06:47 Speaker 2: So this is n obviously ninety five now, because that's

1:06:53 Speaker 2: when we came over here and set up NIDS. And

1:06:58 Speaker 2: the rest is as they.

1:07:00 Speaker 1: Say, So, what was nid's goal and what was your

1:07:07 Speaker 1: first assignment with NIDS? How do we get to skinwalk

1:07:10 Speaker 1: a rant?

1:07:12 Speaker 2: Well, that again multiple stories. When NIS was set up,

1:07:18 Speaker 2: what Bob wanted to do was to look at two

1:07:21 Speaker 2: specific areas and he's now done both. Well, one was

1:07:25 Speaker 2: UFO's generically and the other was continuation of consciousness or

1:07:31 Speaker 2: life after death issues, and we're going to look at both.

1:07:35 Speaker 2: And one of the things I did, I said, well, look,

1:07:39 Speaker 2: let's not set up an organizational structure or anything what

1:07:43 Speaker 2: we owdered. Let's collect a lot of data and then

1:07:47 Speaker 2: assuming the form follows function from that, we will decide,

1:07:52 Speaker 2: you know what, how the sub elements might break out,

1:07:55 Speaker 2: and we bring in that. He's an engineer. The first

1:08:00 Speaker 2: he did is went up to the board and said, okay,

1:08:02 Speaker 2: well we got you know here's the two boxes and

1:08:04 Speaker 2: started drawing. You got you know, under UFOs we have

1:08:09 Speaker 2: abductions at cantemulations blah blah blah. No, uh, that's the

1:08:13 Speaker 2: way he thinks. We had also done some work and

1:08:18 Speaker 2: unlesser known actually had conference on the continuation of conscience

1:08:24 Speaker 2: brought in, you know, lots of people involved in indies,

1:08:31 Speaker 2: all kinds of associated fields with that. And then what

1:08:37 Speaker 2: happened was that somehow he'd had gotten worried about Terry

1:08:42 Speaker 2: Sherman han Skinwalker ranch and decided, you know, this would

1:08:47 Speaker 2: be interesting but became a laboratory, if you will. So

1:08:51 Speaker 2: he agreed to buy the ranch. And the fact I

1:08:58 Speaker 2: was with him the day that he went up to

1:09:02 Speaker 2: buy it was the first one from NIDS to spend

1:09:04 Speaker 2: the night there. Well, I say the most this concerting

1:09:10 Speaker 2: thing that happened, a lot of mosquito whites, things like that.

1:09:14 Speaker 2: It wasn't I did not have any esoteric events that

1:09:19 Speaker 2: happened at that time.

1:09:21 Speaker 1: No skin walkers popped out, sorry, no skin walkers popping

1:09:27 Speaker 1: out at you that night.

1:09:29 Speaker 2: Well, I must tell you that even the term skinwalker

1:09:33 Speaker 2: ranch did not appear until I think after NIDS was dissolved.

1:09:38 Speaker 2: We just called it the ranch.

1:09:40 Speaker 1: The ranch.

1:09:42 Speaker 2: Oh, it was not Skinwalker Rand that came along later.

1:09:46 Speaker 2: It was the popular popular literature came along and right right,

1:09:53 Speaker 2: totally evolved from that.

1:09:56 Speaker 1: Right, that's so, that's that's ironic. Actually, so at Skinwalker Ranch,

1:10:02 Speaker 1: or let's say, at the Ranch, I mean you stay there,

1:10:06 Speaker 1: you're you're you're with Bob when he buys the property,

1:10:10 Speaker 1: he keeps Terry on as the manager, the manager of

1:10:15 Speaker 1: the property. Did you have any reservations about the property

1:10:20 Speaker 1: and the story that was being told to Bob.

1:10:24 Speaker 2: Well, initially we were certainly concerned. I don't know, these

1:10:31 Speaker 2: are pretty far bet stories. But has just evolved and

1:10:36 Speaker 2: these events started happening, particularly with our people. By the way,

1:10:41 Speaker 2: I think Terry is absolutely straight arrow. I tend to

1:10:45 Speaker 2: believe the things they told us, no matter how outlandis

1:10:50 Speaker 2: they may seem, really happened. This is a restrange place,

1:10:56 Speaker 2: as we know now as the popular series as come

1:11:00 Speaker 2: along under a Brandon Fugel and they put in more

1:11:04 Speaker 2: resources and different sensor systems. Yeah, these things really happen there.

1:11:13 Speaker 1: Wow.

1:11:14 Speaker 2: Wow, quite dramatic.

1:11:17 Speaker 1: So you think it was a justified purchase in it

1:11:21 Speaker 1: because it seems to be one of these places that

1:11:24 Speaker 1: you know, dare I say, it seems to be one

1:11:28 Speaker 1: of these places on Earth that the veil seems to

1:11:31 Speaker 1: become either thinner or you know, I don't know, maybe

1:11:36 Speaker 1: the geological formation of the area. Maybe it was an

1:11:41 Speaker 1: impact spot.

1:11:43 Speaker 2: Well, what you're saying is there are certain places around

1:11:47 Speaker 2: the Earth that seem to have more of these events,

1:11:51 Speaker 2: and then that happens to be one of them. But

1:11:54 Speaker 2: you have like Sodona, Arizona, and these places exist around

1:11:59 Speaker 2: the world world, but it's not yah to you asked

1:12:05 Speaker 2: her to Utah or anything yet. So right, they are there,

1:12:10 Speaker 2: and why these emails have a propensity that happened in

1:12:15 Speaker 2: the area.

1:12:16 Speaker 1: Very hard to turn them, right, It's super hard to

1:12:19 Speaker 1: nail down because I mean we look at you know,

1:12:22 Speaker 1: we look at uh the northern tip of you know,

1:12:25 Speaker 1: like Catalina Island, uh in the in the Pacific, and

1:12:30 Speaker 1: you know, the two thousand and four of the Knimits

1:12:32 Speaker 1: event happened out there, and and a lot of stuff

1:12:35 Speaker 1: has happened out there, uh, you know, and and like

1:12:39 Speaker 1: you said, you said, Sidona, that's a that's a very

1:12:43 Speaker 1: bizarre place. And and and you know, obviously Phoenix had

1:12:46 Speaker 1: the you know Phoenix lights incident. Uh in ninety five,

1:12:50 Speaker 1: you guys were up and operating, uh in that in

1:12:53 Speaker 1: that time frame, you know, were you guys ever, you know,

1:12:58 Speaker 1: interested in in cases that were happen like that in

1:13:00 Speaker 1: real time like the phoenix Yes.

1:13:03 Speaker 2: Well real time. Of course you don't hear about them.

1:13:06 Speaker 2: But we did meet with lin Ka Tai, who is

1:13:10 Speaker 2: kind of the expert in the area. Happened to believe

1:13:14 Speaker 2: her by the ways of the witnesses. The other thing

1:13:18 Speaker 2: about the Phoenix lights, because remember they stopped here, I'm

1:13:22 Speaker 2: in Vegas. The first sightings were here in Henderson, Nevada,

1:13:27 Speaker 2: and as time regnized over kingmin Arizona to you know,

1:13:34 Speaker 2: phoenixed onto Tucson back. So is that well, there were

1:13:40 Speaker 2: areas that were activity that was concentrated there. It was

1:13:45 Speaker 2: no only it means exclusive. And I would also when

1:13:50 Speaker 2: has gone on and recommend her work and book on

1:13:53 Speaker 2: it that you know, these it wasn't a singular event.

1:14:00 Speaker 2: The events still she lives a little above the city

1:14:04 Speaker 2: and actually takes photos looking down across the valley a

1:14:09 Speaker 2: thing flying around here?

1:14:11 Speaker 1: Have you seen because I'm sure you have, because you

1:14:15 Speaker 1: know you've talked to her. I doctor Kathie is someone

1:14:19 Speaker 1: I've that I should be having on the show very

1:14:23 Speaker 1: very soon. And when I was talking to her, she

1:14:26 Speaker 1: sent me pictures for multiple different years the same day

1:14:33 Speaker 1: or in that same time period. It seems to be recurring.

1:14:39 Speaker 2: Another person I should have mentioned though, it was Jim

1:14:43 Speaker 2: Dollsoso and he was doing the photographic analysis and we

1:14:48 Speaker 2: met with him as well. And that was particularly of

1:14:53 Speaker 2: quote the Phoenix light. That was the stuff that was

1:14:56 Speaker 2: shocked and now that that wasn't you know, Merrilyn, that

1:15:01 Speaker 2: Air National.

1:15:02 Speaker 1: Guard, no way, no way, and they and they tried

1:15:08 Speaker 1: to demonstrate it two different times. Two different times they

1:15:13 Speaker 1: tried to do an exercise that would show the public.

1:15:15 Speaker 1: It was flares both times. I mean flares. I mean

1:15:20 Speaker 1: if I had if, I mean, it's you honestly, sometimes

1:15:26 Speaker 1: think like how stupid does the does the military or

1:15:30 Speaker 1: government think that the populace is? I mean, there are,

1:15:34 Speaker 1: there are, of course, things that you can get by us,

1:15:37 Speaker 1: right like this drone situation, but the Phoenix lights being

1:15:42 Speaker 1: you know, a giant craft that was videoed for more

1:15:46 Speaker 1: than than five or six minutes, we know flares. They

1:15:52 Speaker 1: would not be able to remain in that constant level.

1:15:56 Speaker 1: It's just it's not a feasible excuse. Do you think

1:16:00 Speaker 1: that the Phoenix lights was an incident of you know,

1:16:04 Speaker 1: these unknown species or do you think it could have

1:16:08 Speaker 1: been a reverse engineered craft?

1:16:10 Speaker 2: No? Well second one is no, it's not a reverse

1:16:13 Speaker 2: engineered craft. Well. One of the things I would take

1:16:17 Speaker 2: a mild objection to when you say the government or

1:16:21 Speaker 2: the military, as you may know, when my presentations, I

1:16:25 Speaker 2: have pictures of the Pentagon, says the next slide is

1:16:30 Speaker 2: the Pentagon says nothing. It's a big stone building with

1:16:33 Speaker 2: twenty nine Yeah, yeah, right, thirty thousand opinions.

1:16:40 Speaker 1: Right right, that's you know, and that's you know, that's

1:16:44 Speaker 1: something that the UFO community I think needs to hear

1:16:46 Speaker 1: again and again and again. It's like, you know, because one,

1:16:50 Speaker 1: you know, with one narrative they'll say, oh, you know,

1:16:53 Speaker 1: the government's lying to us, and then in another narrative,

1:16:56 Speaker 1: in the same sentence, they'll say, yeah, well the government

1:16:59 Speaker 1: has come out and confirm that. And it's like, all right,

1:17:02 Speaker 1: which way are we going here? Are they do we

1:17:05 Speaker 1: trust or do we not? And it's like come on, guys,

1:17:08 Speaker 1: like get it, get your act together a little bit here.

1:17:11 Speaker 1: One or the other.

1:17:12 Speaker 2: Well, we now have arrow, of course, and I don't

1:17:17 Speaker 2: think they're doing themselves any favors. I was interviewed by

1:17:22 Speaker 2: them and they came away certainly less less than enthusiastic,

1:17:31 Speaker 2: and I think there are stretches on trying to explain

1:17:35 Speaker 2: things has been bad. The other thing that's happened, of course,

1:17:39 Speaker 2: is all the main anomalies, well things like you know,

1:17:44 Speaker 2: the Chinese balloon and all of that get thrown in,

1:17:47 Speaker 2: which is something they can deal with, come up with

1:17:50 Speaker 2: the solution. But that too became very political, of course,

1:17:55 Speaker 2: very well, Yeah, they supposedly speaking on the problem as

1:18:00 Speaker 2: they've been caught coming out with kind of some ridiculous

1:18:04 Speaker 2: answers that you know, you get so much counter evidence

1:18:10 Speaker 2: that yeah, kind of hard enough, but they that is

1:18:15 Speaker 2: officially like the D O D position or things like that, right.

1:18:20 Speaker 1: But.

1:18:23 Speaker 2: Venturing into the political arena again. But the corrects hit

1:18:30 Speaker 2: the fan. Uh, you know, the issue of U UH

1:18:34 Speaker 2: and the the gag Alan gang and how the defense

1:18:42 Speaker 2: or the intelligence community put out a memo that said

1:18:47 Speaker 2: there's that they do not work for Maduro and UH

1:18:51 Speaker 2: Venezuela and that and that's being used as an example

1:18:56 Speaker 2: of you know, the rationale for booking the war Powers.

1:19:01 Speaker 1: Act right, right, and then and then that's a whole situation.

1:19:07 Speaker 1: You know that I I'm hesitant to touch just because

1:19:12 Speaker 1: but I think it's it's a I mean, it just

1:19:15 Speaker 1: shows you how again it just it goes to say

1:19:21 Speaker 1: that we need to be we need to hold our

1:19:25 Speaker 1: government and our military and our intelligence community, we need

1:19:29 Speaker 1: to hold them accountable, and we need to hold them

1:19:34 Speaker 1: not all accountable.

1:19:36 Speaker 2: Where it does come together as incredibility, Yes, we're going

1:19:43 Speaker 2: to have this is the source or whatnot? And yeah, problem.

1:19:49 Speaker 1: Agree, I agree, I agree, and and and see again,

1:19:52 Speaker 1: look and and and you know, this is a case

1:19:54 Speaker 1: study in how how the operation goes because everybody's p

1:20:00 Speaker 1: in the finger at each other right now. It's like

1:20:01 Speaker 1: the Spider Man meme where there's three Spider Man They're

1:20:05 Speaker 1: all pointing at each other. It's like, you know, everyone's

1:20:07 Speaker 1: putting the blame on on the other side, and you know,

1:20:11 Speaker 1: ultimately nothing's getting done, Like at the end of the day,

1:20:15 Speaker 1: nothing is actually getting done.

1:20:17 Speaker 2: And it'smen. Yeah, but we can go off here for

1:20:22 Speaker 2: hours for days.

1:20:23 Speaker 1: You're right, you're right. And with with that being said, though,

1:20:27 Speaker 1: I think people give the government or the military. I

1:20:30 Speaker 1: think they give them a little bit too much credit

1:20:34 Speaker 1: for being a little bit more organized than they actually are.

1:20:37 Speaker 1: I mean, there could be these you know, obviously we

1:20:40 Speaker 1: talk about uh secret programs and black money, and you

1:20:45 Speaker 1: know the New York Times article glowing money and black

1:20:48 Speaker 1: aura or glowing auras in black money. And you know,

1:20:53 Speaker 1: a lot of people think that there are UFOs that

1:20:57 Speaker 1: are reverse engineered. And whether you believe that or not,

1:21:00 Speaker 1: you know, it's up to you, right to it.

1:21:03 Speaker 2: Let's be clear, and it was a toll pable for years.

1:21:07 Speaker 2: Do not be surprised if strange things fly in the desert. Yes,

1:21:12 Speaker 2: we do develop craft and stealth, which is basically you know,

1:21:20 Speaker 2: signature control and various domains. Those things do exist. But

1:21:27 Speaker 2: you know my problem. You had mentioned Typson before, and

1:21:33 Speaker 2: he goes, well, it wears a good clear picture, and

1:21:35 Speaker 2: I haven't seen this or that. You go, let's go back.

1:21:39 Speaker 2: One of my favorite ones is how about Mack fifty

1:21:44 Speaker 2: in eighteen forty seven, right, yeah, or I'm sorry, mock

1:21:49 Speaker 2: five hundred. No, we did not have anything approaching that

1:21:55 Speaker 2: sort of speed at that time.

1:21:58 Speaker 1: No, no, no, we did not. And you know, if

1:22:02 Speaker 1: someone were to see the and and they probably did.

1:22:06 Speaker 1: I mean, it probably did happen. So you know, if

1:22:09 Speaker 1: if someone were to see the the black as SR

1:22:12 Speaker 1: seventy one or uh with what the other one, I'm

1:22:18 Speaker 1: blanking you, the you two, if they were if they

1:22:21 Speaker 1: saw that before the it was announced, well, I mean you.

1:22:24 Speaker 2: Thought that thing was remember I think with the yeah,

1:22:30 Speaker 2: with the U two, that was you know, actually part

1:22:35 Speaker 2: of the cover story because they were nobody. They did

1:22:38 Speaker 2: not know that anybody could fly at ninety thousand feet

1:22:42 Speaker 2: and so you had commercial pilot saying, we're seeing things

1:22:45 Speaker 2: up there. So to describe that UFOs was good, That

1:22:51 Speaker 2: was us. Yeah, must be a UFO, And.

1:22:55 Speaker 1: They probably leaned into it, right like okay, well you

1:22:59 Speaker 1: know they're they're called at a UFO. Guys, they're they're

1:23:01 Speaker 1: not They're they're not getting it right that it's unidentified

1:23:04 Speaker 1: to them. So let them keep thinking that, right, that

1:23:07 Speaker 1: it might be aliens. So you know, we that's the thing,

1:23:12 Speaker 1: right is, is we want to know how far we've advanced,

1:23:16 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, we want to know what's ours,

1:23:20 Speaker 1: what's not ours. Do you think that the tic TAC

1:23:24 Speaker 1: or or these these you know craft that that are

1:23:27 Speaker 1: very prevalent today. Another video just came out from Jeremy

1:23:31 Speaker 1: Corbel and George Knapp of a you know the USS

1:23:35 Speaker 1: jack USS Jackson twenty twenty three, a sighting of for

1:23:40 Speaker 1: tiktac craft craft that looked like tiktacs flying in formation

1:23:45 Speaker 1: and you know, showing instantaneous velocity. Is these craft have

1:23:52 Speaker 1: been seen for a long time. I'm I'm very hesitant

1:23:55 Speaker 1: to think it's Lockheed or Northrop.

1:23:58 Speaker 2: No. No. Things that bothers me is you know they

1:24:03 Speaker 2: hear these things and talk about something that's currently going on,

1:24:07 Speaker 2: and then you go back to they bought. Look at

1:24:10 Speaker 2: the history, stuff's kind of always been there, right, not

1:24:15 Speaker 2: to say they're not or you know now well, but

1:24:20 Speaker 2: the problem is you have multisensory data. I was going

1:24:25 Speaker 2: to say it could have been hallucinogenic or something generated

1:24:29 Speaker 2: or that. Yeah, c G. I can generate lots of stuff,

1:24:33 Speaker 2: but the full of multiple sensors. I was gonna mention

1:24:37 Speaker 2: the offs AT program. Uh, yeah, I love the guys

1:24:43 Speaker 2: and all of that, but there there are major findings

1:24:48 Speaker 2: of you know, the instantaneous and rapid acceleration, et cetera,

1:24:53 Speaker 2: et cetera, all of those things we knew back when

1:24:59 Speaker 2: I was doing the the program in the eighties that

1:25:01 Speaker 2: that stuff was not new. What what us that brought

1:25:05 Speaker 2: to the table and and HF programs and probably the

1:25:09 Speaker 2: follow up. You have new sensors, some interesting new cases,

1:25:13 Speaker 2: some better ways to capture data. But all of the

1:25:18 Speaker 2: things that they were describing, you know, uh, even the

1:25:24 Speaker 2: transdimensional issues coming out of the wood. One of the

1:25:30 Speaker 2: most interesting things I think was from Brandon Fugel uh

1:25:34 Speaker 2: in their program where they see the things coming down

1:25:37 Speaker 2: and going through and then coming back out again. Though. Yeah,

1:25:44 Speaker 2: but that's all that, particularly coming in and out of

1:25:47 Speaker 2: water has been reported for decades.

1:25:51 Speaker 1: Right right, and and and like you said, you know,

1:25:54 Speaker 1: I think we're just now, you know, at a level

1:25:57 Speaker 1: where you know, they because Kevin Day, who the chief

1:26:00 Speaker 1: radar operator UH on the on the Princeton in the

1:26:05 Speaker 1: Nimitz Battle group, he said that they had just upgraded

1:26:09 Speaker 1: their their their system. Yeah, and then all of a sudden,

1:26:15 Speaker 1: you know, they start seeing all these contacts start raining

1:26:18 Speaker 1: down and that's when favor in them get vectored out

1:26:21 Speaker 1: there and see the and see the craft. So, like

1:26:25 Speaker 1: you said, you know, I think we're just getting to

1:26:27 Speaker 1: that point in two thousand and four, where maybe we

1:26:29 Speaker 1: did the technolog technology caught up. Now we're seeing them

1:26:32 Speaker 1: with our eyes. It's not just eyewitness testimony, but now

1:26:36 Speaker 1: we have censor data to back it up. Obviously, in

1:26:39 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, you know, we've come even further sous

1:26:44 Speaker 1: the board.

1:26:45 Speaker 2: The censor systems are ubiquitous, right, you know, from my

1:26:50 Speaker 2: ring thing out of the door here to uh, you

1:26:54 Speaker 2: know people and every everybody with a cell phone, uh

1:26:57 Speaker 2: who take taking pictures. We have satellite systems that are

1:27:02 Speaker 2: constantly u during the earth.

1:27:07 Speaker 1: So do you I mean, do you think yeah? I

1:27:12 Speaker 1: mean so that I mean just begs the question, right,

1:27:17 Speaker 1: I mean after a SAP A SAP was was you know,

1:27:24 Speaker 1: I think the New York Times article when it came out,

1:27:27 Speaker 1: I mean, it did a lot of good, it really did.

1:27:29 Speaker 1: It brought the topic into the mainstream.

1:27:32 Speaker 2: But it's the main thing was not that. It was

1:27:36 Speaker 2: that the New York Times printed it as a serious

1:27:39 Speaker 2: story as opposed to.

1:27:41 Speaker 1: A ha you know, right, little green men in X

1:27:45 Speaker 1: files music, the Halloween story or something. Right, they focused

1:27:52 Speaker 1: on a tip and Alessando rather than I mean, that's

1:27:56 Speaker 1: obviously because Alexondo is the one that came to Leslie Keane.

1:28:00 Speaker 1: But why do you think that Osapp was left out?

1:28:03 Speaker 1: And Jim Lekatski and all those like the Real Program?

1:28:06 Speaker 1: Why do you think that was left out of the

1:28:08 Speaker 1: New York Times.

1:28:11 Speaker 2: I'm sorry it was what was left out of Times.

1:28:14 Speaker 1: The correct program name being as App and the lead

1:28:19 Speaker 1: being Jim Lakatski not Elizondo.

1:28:24 Speaker 2: Uh can't address that. That has more to do, I

1:28:28 Speaker 2: think with the personal contacts with the reporters themselves, right

1:28:33 Speaker 2: with Leslie and fair fair enough that came about obviously

1:28:39 Speaker 2: there was a personal relationship where people knew the reporters

1:28:44 Speaker 2: and then took a lot of convincing to get the

1:28:48 Speaker 2: New York Times to accept the story.

1:28:50 Speaker 1: And then it was one political Yeah, it was political,

1:28:56 Speaker 1: Bryan Bender.

1:28:57 Speaker 2: The question then is who gets the first story? And

1:29:02 Speaker 2: then they had to work out to get them released,

1:29:04 Speaker 2: and that's in the news media politics of that mostly

1:29:12 Speaker 2: how did occur? I think most of that was again,

1:29:16 Speaker 2: somebody knew reporters, and Leslie was known.

1:29:20 Speaker 1: And very well then was Ralph Blumenthal and.

1:29:27 Speaker 2: Bhal but he was better known in the New York

1:29:31 Speaker 2: Times and able to convince them. But even then had

1:29:34 Speaker 2: to go to the editors and showed them stuff.

1:29:38 Speaker 1: Yeah, Cooper, I think what broke the camel's back for

1:29:42 Speaker 1: that story was when Alene Cooper, she reached out to

1:29:46 Speaker 1: Senator Harry Reid, who had allocated the twenty million for

1:29:51 Speaker 1: Ausapp to begin with, right, he had he had talked

1:29:54 Speaker 1: to Senator Anyway and a couple another member of the

1:29:58 Speaker 1: Gang of Eight. And for anyone who doesn't know the

1:30:00 Speaker 1: Gang of Eight, uh, they're they're like the congressmen that

1:30:05 Speaker 1: are let's call them the VIP congressman. They're the ones

1:30:08 Speaker 1: that handle the black budget, right, so they're read into

1:30:12 Speaker 1: a little bit more than your average congressman or congresswoman.

1:30:16 Speaker 1: So Senator Harry Reid then confirms to Helene Cooper that

1:30:22 Speaker 1: the program absolutely existed, and that's really when boom the

1:30:27 Speaker 1: firestorm came right and that that I think that sold

1:30:31 Speaker 1: the story right there. But you know, Jim Lekatski, he

1:30:36 Speaker 1: kind of stays unknown for a while. He's since come

1:30:39 Speaker 1: out and now he's talked to guys like Jeremy Corbel

1:30:42 Speaker 1: and George Knapp. Uh and he says, and again this

1:30:46 Speaker 1: is what he said. He said that the CIA had

1:30:51 Speaker 1: a craft. They tried to unload it to ASAPP, but

1:30:56 Speaker 1: it was or no. Lockheed had a craft, tried to

1:31:00 Speaker 1: law give it to us APP because they weren't getting

1:31:03 Speaker 1: anywhere with it, and the c i A blocked the effort.

1:31:09 Speaker 1: They blocked the transfer of the craft. Now, whether it

1:31:14 Speaker 1: was alien or not is a different question, but you know,

1:31:18 Speaker 1: it's it's it's weird to hear about it. Did you

1:31:20 Speaker 1: ever hear about that?

1:31:22 Speaker 3: Oh?

1:31:23 Speaker 2: Not until after the fact. But you got to remember

1:31:28 Speaker 2: there's a lot of political stuff involved here, and personal

1:31:34 Speaker 2: reputations online and things of that nature. By the way,

1:31:38 Speaker 2: one of these concerns me. I just saw yesterday a

1:31:42 Speaker 2: list by for Luna. Yes, say, you know, here's the

1:31:48 Speaker 2: list of wins. Certain things are going to come forward

1:31:51 Speaker 2: and be released.

1:31:53 Speaker 1: Mhm.

1:31:54 Speaker 2: In my view, that's disastrous. Why and I said told

1:31:58 Speaker 2: that to Steve Bassett. Why I think it's going to

1:32:01 Speaker 2: be used to cover a multitude of sins, of real

1:32:04 Speaker 2: crimes that are that are ongoing. Because it will, you know,

1:32:10 Speaker 2: we'll get some play and certainly a distraction from far

1:32:15 Speaker 2: more serious things like the funding medicare head sharp It's

1:32:22 Speaker 2: other real world problems today, right right, it's a way

1:32:26 Speaker 2: too again distract from what's going on.

1:32:30 Speaker 1: Yeah, and for anyone who didn't see it, I want

1:32:33 Speaker 1: to pull it up. So obviously we know that Luna

1:32:37 Speaker 1: uh you know, has has been granted at a committee

1:32:41 Speaker 1: essentially a task force, and they're calling it the Secrets

1:32:45 Speaker 1: you know whatever, the Secrets task Force. But April twenty ninth,

1:32:49 Speaker 1: they're expected or and this is what they're saying obviously

1:32:53 Speaker 1: that you know, they're going to be going into a

1:32:55 Speaker 1: skiff and then there's going to be a hearing, and

1:32:59 Speaker 1: that's what you said, that's this is you know, this

1:33:01 Speaker 1: is it's almost like here's the left hand, don't look

1:33:04 Speaker 1: at the right hand.

1:33:09 Speaker 2: So terrible timing. And this is where you get the

1:33:13 Speaker 2: mix between you really would like to understand the phenomena.

1:33:17 Speaker 2: What I think we can. I think all the best

1:33:20 Speaker 2: you're going to get are probably some new data on

1:33:24 Speaker 2: uh phenomena that are occurring as opposed to here solutions.

1:33:31 Speaker 2: You mentioned the thing with Lukowski he claims to have

1:33:36 Speaker 2: a craft and just can't get into it sort of thing. Right, Okay,

1:33:44 Speaker 2: what I'm looking for in all of these is what's

1:33:47 Speaker 2: useful other than just saying, wow, things happened to know

1:33:55 Speaker 2: that's Okay, how does this advance humanity today? Right?

1:34:00 Speaker 1: I agree? I mean I agree, and that you know,

1:34:04 Speaker 1: I have a couple more questions and then you know,

1:34:08 Speaker 1: we can we we can definitely do another episode in

1:34:11 Speaker 1: the future as well, because I I could. I can

1:34:14 Speaker 1: talk to you for hours, because you're so I mean,

1:34:18 Speaker 1: you're just as smart. You're very intelligent, and you've done

1:34:21 Speaker 1: so much with your career and it blows me away. Yeah, right,

1:34:26 Speaker 1: and we have now, but I do want to I

1:34:29 Speaker 1: have two questions or a member's only section that I'd

1:34:34 Speaker 1: like to do after we wrap up in a couple

1:34:37 Speaker 1: of minutes. So it's a new thing I'm doing so

1:34:42 Speaker 1: that everyone there will never be an episode that's behind

1:34:46 Speaker 1: a paywall. I don't think that's fair to anybody. But

1:34:50 Speaker 1: you know, there's gonna be bonus segment for the members

1:34:54 Speaker 1: of the show that only they get to see, you know,

1:34:58 Speaker 1: and it's only a couple of questions, and I don't

1:35:00 Speaker 1: think that's you know, I don't think it's too crazy

1:35:02 Speaker 1: to do. I wanted to talk to you so after.

1:35:06 Speaker 1: I mean, you said it before. I mean, you've said

1:35:09 Speaker 1: it before. I love seeing you on Skinwalker Ranch that

1:35:13 Speaker 1: TV show as well. I love that their Brandon has

1:35:16 Speaker 1: been bringing you in to, you know, kind of supplement

1:35:20 Speaker 1: and inform the investigation because I do think that what's

1:35:24 Speaker 1: going on at Skinwalker Ranch right now with Fugel, I

1:35:27 Speaker 1: think it's one of the biggest investigations, the most expensive

1:35:31 Speaker 1: endeavors into actually researching and getting data for the phenomenon.

1:35:35 Speaker 1: And I really think that more civilians are going to

1:35:38 Speaker 1: start doing this and that's how we'll get results. But

1:35:41 Speaker 1: you've said before that disclosure has already happened in bits

1:35:44 Speaker 1: and pieces. What do you believe the public still isn't

1:35:48 Speaker 1: ready to hear or perhaps something that's not being told.

1:35:57 Speaker 1: So so, what do you think that there's some thing

1:36:00 Speaker 1: about the phenomena that the public won't isn't ready to hear.

1:36:05 Speaker 2: I think the question is different. And remember I have

1:36:10 Speaker 2: talked about what I call precognitive sentient phenomena at the Ranch,

1:36:16 Speaker 2: and the difference you're money you're ready to hear is

1:36:20 Speaker 2: what is the phenomena ready to reveal?

1:36:24 Speaker 1: That's a good answer, quite quite different.

1:36:28 Speaker 2: And what I said was, you know, the reason I

1:36:31 Speaker 2: called the PSP it seemed to know how we were

1:36:36 Speaker 2: going to respond to an event before it had occurred.

1:36:42 Speaker 2: And the classic that I used here is there was

1:36:45 Speaker 2: a inflamus one with a cattle, was during cabin season,

1:36:52 Speaker 2: and Terry went out, drives across the thing and he

1:36:56 Speaker 2: finds a newborn cap He tags it and waves it,

1:37:00 Speaker 2: and then drives on and finds another newborn, tags it

1:37:04 Speaker 2: and wags it, and he comes back and cap one

1:37:09 Speaker 2: is dead. Not only is he dead, it's been eviscerated

1:37:13 Speaker 2: and exanguinated. There's bone missing and make ears sliced off,

1:37:20 Speaker 2: there's about you know it buries on the number of

1:37:23 Speaker 2: forty to fifty pounds of stuff that's just missing from it.

1:37:30 Speaker 2: And so during exanguination they said, oh, the blood just

1:37:34 Speaker 2: flowed into the ground in the area.

1:37:37 Speaker 1: Yeah, right, So well, we had.

1:37:40 Speaker 2: Georgia o'nette, who was a DMB who was there, and

1:37:44 Speaker 2: there was a slaughterhouse nearby, so I suggested, he said,

1:37:48 Speaker 2: go to the slaughterhouse and get blood, which he had

1:37:52 Speaker 2: got a couple of courts of maybe a couple of

1:37:54 Speaker 2: gallons of blood. Come back in your port on the

1:37:57 Speaker 2: ground and an areinear there, but a different place. And

1:38:01 Speaker 2: when you came back, you know, weeks later you say

1:38:06 Speaker 2: the blood was poured down there and there's no blood

1:38:09 Speaker 2: over here with this cap was exangminated, so obviously the

1:38:14 Speaker 2: blood didn't just go with a ground. Well again, I

1:38:17 Speaker 2: think the intelligence of controlling this knew that we were

1:38:22 Speaker 2: going to do that sort of thing. And as I said,

1:38:28 Speaker 2: there's a it and I do not know how to

1:38:30 Speaker 2: describe it, but it is in control. So you know

1:38:38 Speaker 2: what you say, what do we need to know or

1:38:42 Speaker 2: what are we willing to know? It's what's it willing

1:38:46 Speaker 2: to tell us? Because they kept morphing. This was the

1:38:50 Speaker 2: key thing. The phenomena kept morphing. It was always one

1:38:54 Speaker 2: step ahead, you know, you know lots of time, the

1:38:57 Speaker 2: cameras were set out. Now what Brandon had is much

1:39:01 Speaker 2: more sophisticated than we did at a time, but we

1:39:03 Speaker 2: had the cameras on twenty four to seven and would

1:39:07 Speaker 2: end up reviewing them. What would happen when something would

1:39:12 Speaker 2: happen just off camera? Oh yeah, oh you like this,

1:39:17 Speaker 2: tried this, something is just different. So again it's in control.

1:39:23 Speaker 2: And I think that has to do with also whatever

1:39:26 Speaker 2: messages are going to be made available.

1:39:31 Speaker 1: So with with your thought being that the phenomena of course,

1:39:38 Speaker 1: now now now that you now that you phrase it

1:39:40 Speaker 1: like that. I mean, it's it's I mean, it's pretty

1:39:43 Speaker 1: easy to think about that. Okay, obviously the phenomena is

1:39:46 Speaker 1: in control. Ultimately, do you think that there are some

1:39:52 Speaker 1: humans or maybe a faction or or someone that is

1:40:00 Speaker 1: representing the human race to the phenomena and maybe is.

1:40:04 Speaker 2: In on it. Well, I think the question again is

1:40:08 Speaker 2: a little different. There's a gallon hole that was taking

1:40:12 Speaker 2: place a couple decades ago, and that had to do

1:40:17 Speaker 2: with basically, is ech here? And I used this in

1:40:21 Speaker 2: the range of phenomena, but there was on a global

1:40:25 Speaker 2: poll of twenty percent of the people believe that E

1:40:28 Speaker 2: T is here and walking among us.

1:40:32 Speaker 1: Robert one of those.

1:40:35 Speaker 2: But is it here? You certainly hear some interesting stories.

1:40:41 Speaker 2: I've got friends who say I met ET. I actually

1:40:45 Speaker 2: had one guy I do not know who called me yesterday,

1:40:49 Speaker 2: maybe somebody watching the program eventually that I just called

1:40:54 Speaker 2: me out of the blue and says, oh, by the way,

1:40:57 Speaker 2: I'm an interdimensional time traveler.

1:41:00 Speaker 1: Oh my god.

1:41:02 Speaker 2: So I mean there are crazy people, there are. I've

1:41:08 Speaker 2: got some of those responding as well.

1:41:12 Speaker 1: So someone told someone called you out of the blue

1:41:15 Speaker 1: and told you they were an interdimensional time traveler. Wow, Okay,

1:41:21 Speaker 1: that's that's an odd call to take. You know, what

1:41:25 Speaker 1: do you even say to that, like, uh, okay, like

1:41:29 Speaker 1: what do you want me to do?

1:41:31 Speaker 2: What they're usually doing? And I've had a couple of

1:41:33 Speaker 2: this this week, and it is phrenomenantly people who have

1:41:39 Speaker 2: had unusual experiences trying to explain it or if you're

1:41:46 Speaker 2: made with sgs and spiritual transational experiences and trying to integrate,

1:41:53 Speaker 2: you know, some of these very unusual circumstances into everyday life. Right,

1:42:00 Speaker 2: one call explaining that he had had a Kundalini experience.

1:42:06 Speaker 2: That's probably probably another topic, but all saying this is

1:42:12 Speaker 2: one who was one of the ones that I mentioned

1:42:15 Speaker 2: earlier who just went outside and said, well, I'd read

1:42:19 Speaker 2: Christmas Book and thought i'd try it and went out

1:42:23 Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, yeah, orbs responding. And the

1:42:29 Speaker 2: issue for them, I think, is how do I integrate

1:42:33 Speaker 2: that into consensus reality where I have to live.

1:42:36 Speaker 1: On a day to day basis exactly. That's that's a

1:42:40 Speaker 1: very very good point, because of course, you know, all right, well,

1:42:49 Speaker 1: how put off right? And I'm sure you know how Yeah,

1:42:55 Speaker 1: he's he said on the record at the Soul Foundation

1:43:00 Speaker 1: conference as well as multiple other platforms. He had said

1:43:05 Speaker 1: that he was part of a think tank, and this

1:43:08 Speaker 1: think tank, you know, had had private citizens, it had

1:43:13 Speaker 1: people in government, had military, you know, the a whole

1:43:17 Speaker 1: plethora of people from community, if you will, and ultimately

1:43:24 Speaker 1: the think tank came to the conclusion that disclosure is

1:43:30 Speaker 1: it's unsustainable in a societal capacity, meaning that markets would crash,

1:43:41 Speaker 1: ontological shock, you know, mental health. Uh is that is that?

1:43:45 Speaker 1: Is that something you would agree with?

1:43:49 Speaker 2: I I have heard a lot of that. I think

1:43:52 Speaker 2: I know what when, and who was running it, and

1:43:58 Speaker 2: all of that short answer would be known. Again, I

1:44:05 Speaker 2: think we're and I don't think there's any control this again.

1:44:08 Speaker 2: I think us back to who's in control. I don't

1:44:12 Speaker 2: think given any phenomenon, the phenomena are in control. If

1:44:20 Speaker 2: you want a really wild one, and I was. I

1:44:24 Speaker 2: won't mention the professor that I was talking to, and

1:44:27 Speaker 2: it was just Wednesday. As a matter of fact, this week,

1:44:34 Speaker 2: I'm sorry it was Thursday. We're supposed to talk Wednesday

1:44:37 Speaker 2: had to move to Thursday. But his point was because

1:44:40 Speaker 2: this had more to do with all the social political

1:44:44 Speaker 2: nonsense that's going on, and he raised the issue he

1:44:50 Speaker 2: believes it, but said, what if Gaya, the world as

1:44:55 Speaker 2: we know it is in a self protectment of the

1:45:00 Speaker 2: those consternation that's going up, that the world is protecting

1:45:05 Speaker 2: itself from those parasites us, that it is a conscious

1:45:12 Speaker 2: there's a conscious entity knows that it needs to do something.

1:45:16 Speaker 2: And this this gets a little climate change issues and

1:45:19 Speaker 2: the damage that we're doing ecologically around the world right.

1:45:25 Speaker 1: Well, want to think about that is a very trippy

1:45:30 Speaker 1: thing to think about, because, I mean, it seems, you know,

1:45:37 Speaker 1: we are the only species on this planet that takes

1:45:43 Speaker 1: way more than we give right every other creature or

1:45:47 Speaker 1: or specimen or animal on this planet, you know, it

1:45:52 Speaker 1: serves either an ecological or a really like fundamental uh

1:45:58 Speaker 1: service to the world. Know, bees pollinate and they have

1:46:02 Speaker 1: a very specific job that they do in the in

1:46:07 Speaker 1: the on the on the earth. But humans, it seems

1:46:11 Speaker 1: that we we don't and we're just like we're in

1:46:14 Speaker 1: this perpetual like we need to keep creating the next

1:46:18 Speaker 1: iPhone and the next this and the next this, and

1:46:21 Speaker 1: we take so much from the earth and we give

1:46:25 Speaker 1: nothing that you know, not nothing, because there are people

1:46:28 Speaker 1: that are like planting trees and stuff like that. But

1:46:31 Speaker 1: in totality, the human race is absolutely taken more than

1:46:35 Speaker 1: it's given.

1:46:36 Speaker 2: Back, so parasite advisedly.

1:46:42 Speaker 1: So well, my point being, you know, look at what

1:46:45 Speaker 1: happened in the dinosaurs, right, how long till Mother Nature

1:46:51 Speaker 1: winds up and throws the rock at us and says

1:46:56 Speaker 1: no more?

1:46:57 Speaker 2: You know?

1:46:58 Speaker 1: That's it scares me.

1:46:59 Speaker 2: Well, like I said, this, this is the micro issue

1:47:03 Speaker 2: of those guys that have consciousness, I think.

1:47:07 Speaker 1: So, I mean, if we're talking about I mean, if

1:47:10 Speaker 1: you and I have already you know, agreed together that

1:47:14 Speaker 1: consciousness does not arise from it is something that is there,

1:47:21 Speaker 1: you know, the Earth, that would essentially, you know, lead

1:47:25 Speaker 1: us down the path that maybe every atom you know,

1:47:28 Speaker 1: just like because what is the difference between the atoms

1:47:30 Speaker 1: that make up a bowling ball and the ones that

1:47:32 Speaker 1: make us up. There's no difference right in the atoms themselves.

1:47:36 Speaker 1: It's how they're constructed. So if each atom is a

1:47:39 Speaker 1: conscious thing, right, then we really start having to ask

1:47:44 Speaker 1: ourselves questions we may not really be ready for the

1:47:48 Speaker 1: answer for because if the Earth is conscious, I think

1:47:54 Speaker 1: a lot of people are going to you know, that

1:47:58 Speaker 1: would that that would fundamentally change people how they think,

1:48:04 Speaker 1: how we view ourselves.

1:48:06 Speaker 2: The problem here is where we live in the post

1:48:09 Speaker 2: truth world, the acceptance of these sorts of things that

1:48:15 Speaker 2: are obvious. There's a book that I recommend frequently, and

1:48:20 Speaker 2: that is the myth of the rational voter, and that

1:48:25 Speaker 2: is people will do things this is in their own

1:48:28 Speaker 2: best interest. And we, you know, are definitely living in

1:48:31 Speaker 2: an area where many things are not in our best

1:48:34 Speaker 2: interest and we're doing it. And the rules on climate

1:48:38 Speaker 2: change is just a classic example, and I think potentially catastrophic.

1:48:43 Speaker 1: I agree, I agree, I really do. And you know,

1:48:48 Speaker 1: if there was okay, so to wrap the episode, the

1:48:53 Speaker 1: public episode up, you know there are well maybe I'll

1:49:00 Speaker 1: skip that because that's a little bit vague and that'll

1:49:03 Speaker 1: probably be a really, really long endeavor. So after a

1:49:08 Speaker 1: lifetime of investigation, you know, military service and consciousness research,

1:49:15 Speaker 1: what's your biggest takeaway about the nature of reality itself?

1:49:23 Speaker 2: Oh, nature of reality?

1:49:26 Speaker 1: Yeah, what's your biggest takeaway given everything you've learned in

1:49:30 Speaker 1: your many amazing years of service.

1:49:34 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd really have to think about that. They can't

1:49:38 Speaker 2: give a quick right, that's terribly interesting and complex question.

1:49:48 Speaker 2: I think it gets back to the whole idea of

1:49:52 Speaker 2: consciousness arises and the issue of what we were just

1:49:58 Speaker 2: discussing on the give and take and hey, generic balance

1:50:05 Speaker 2: that eventually occurs and if you get too far out

1:50:11 Speaker 2: of balance that that, yeah, it something occurs that that

1:50:17 Speaker 2: brings balance back. Right now, I've said that Einstein's approach

1:50:24 Speaker 2: is you know it is but it's a very persistent

1:50:30 Speaker 2: uh reality, if you.

1:50:32 Speaker 1: Will right right and and and that's absolutely I I

1:50:37 Speaker 1: that's I understand where you're going. I do. And it

1:50:41 Speaker 1: is a very complex question.

1:50:43 Speaker 2: Well, the issue of maya, you know, all is maya well,

1:50:49 Speaker 2: but there are things that you know, if somebody punches

1:50:53 Speaker 2: you in the nose, it hurts. That's a very as

1:50:58 Speaker 2: eInsight would say, a very persistent reality. What you know,

1:51:02 Speaker 2: if it's an illusion, it has it's good.

1:51:07 Speaker 1: So those that are demonstrable, absolutely, and that that's a

1:51:12 Speaker 1: great that's a great uh sending off point. So obviously

1:51:18 Speaker 1: you know the I want to say thank you so

1:51:20 Speaker 1: much for doing today's episode, especially day before Easter. I

1:51:25 Speaker 1: have a couple more questions for you, So stick stick

1:51:28 Speaker 1: around for just a couple more minutes. They'll be you know,

1:51:30 Speaker 1: we'll do the members only section and we'll get you

1:51:33 Speaker 1: we'll get you out of here. And uh again, I

1:51:36 Speaker 1: you are such a legend in this field, you know,

1:51:40 Speaker 1: are you Are you going to be doing any talks

1:51:42 Speaker 1: or anything coming up that people should know about?

1:51:46 Speaker 2: No, actually not. I tell to go to the Isles conference.

1:51:54 Speaker 1: Uh.

1:51:54 Speaker 2: There is one thing I will be attending in uh

1:51:59 Speaker 2: really August. And there's something kind of up called the

1:52:02 Speaker 2: Side Games that it's going to be. Well, it's a

1:52:07 Speaker 2: whole new concept. It's going to be in Charlottesfield. But

1:52:11 Speaker 2: this is with people and what they're looking for the

1:52:15 Speaker 2: young folks who are unknown, basically a kind of like

1:52:21 Speaker 2: an Olympics competition in these areas. Guys like Paul Smith,

1:52:30 Speaker 2: Jeffrey miss Love is going to be there. There's a

1:52:32 Speaker 2: host of people WHOA there's a PI P s I

1:52:39 Speaker 2: Games and there is a website up that has all

1:52:43 Speaker 2: the people who are scheduled so far. It's quite quite

1:52:48 Speaker 2: an interesting list of people.

1:52:52 Speaker 1: Yeah. No, that's that's an incredible idea as well. You know,

1:52:57 Speaker 1: obviously Robert Bigelow did the you know, the Diet, the

1:53:01 Speaker 1: Grand Yeah. There we had people write the essays on uh,

1:53:06 Speaker 1: surviving consciousness, surviving death, and I think Jeffrey Mischel have

1:53:11 Speaker 1: won that, right, Yeah, so he he was just on

1:53:15 Speaker 1: I think Danny Jones. Fantastic episode, Yeah, fantastic.

1:53:20 Speaker 2: That a tremendous advantage in that he's been doing interviews

1:53:27 Speaker 2: for thirty or forty years, right, and so what he

1:53:30 Speaker 2: had a bailable to him was just absolutely amazing. He

1:53:35 Speaker 2: did a great job with that.

1:53:37 Speaker 1: Essay, absolutely absolutely, And I really loved that, you know,

1:53:44 Speaker 1: Robert did something like that because you know, it just

1:53:48 Speaker 1: goes to show you that, you know, when when entrepreneurs

1:53:51 Speaker 1: are people that have a lot of money, you know,

1:53:53 Speaker 1: if they you know, run these you know, run these

1:53:57 Speaker 1: things and give back to the community and you know,

1:54:01 Speaker 1: try to be when we do things for the betterment

1:54:04 Speaker 1: of humanity, look at the things that we can accomplish, right,

1:54:09 Speaker 1: And it's and it's it's frustrating because then you see

1:54:12 Speaker 1: how how things play out on the world stage and

1:54:14 Speaker 1: it's like, guys, come on, like, let's work together.

1:54:17 Speaker 2: Amazing, very interesting approach. The idea that people can say,

1:54:22 Speaker 2: you know, I want to try they're gonna be the

1:54:24 Speaker 2: ones in remote viewing and PK. There's a whole number

1:54:27 Speaker 2: of games if you will competition.

1:54:33 Speaker 1: So that wraps up the public episode everybody, Thank you

1:54:37 Speaker 1: so much for being here. I've been taking a little

1:54:40 Speaker 1: break where we're moving into the new place. We're kind

1:54:42 Speaker 1: of settled in, but I'm still doing Uh I'm doing

1:54:45 Speaker 1: this episode from our living room because the studio won't

1:54:49 Speaker 1: be ready until after I get back from contact in

1:54:51 Speaker 1: the Desert in June. So you know, play it, play

1:54:56 Speaker 1: play it by year with me.

1:54:58 Speaker 2: And uh.

1:54:59 Speaker 1: You know, I'm definitely gonna be doing a lot more

1:55:01 Speaker 1: in person episodes. I find that those are the most fulfilling. Uh.

1:55:06 Speaker 1: You know, I watched your episode with Sean Ryan. It

1:55:09 Speaker 1: was so good, so well done. And uh, I mean

1:55:12 Speaker 1: that's a five hour blast to listen to if anyone

1:55:16 Speaker 1: wants to do that. So you can follow and you

1:55:19 Speaker 1: can find uh John Alexander. Uh, he's on Facebook as

1:55:23 Speaker 1: well as he's done a tremendous amount of interviews. And

1:55:28 Speaker 1: and thank you for your service to our country, John,

1:56:01 Speaker 1: and

1:56:11 Speaker 3: And and a