Investigating the UNKNOWN: Former Acting Director of AARO- Tim Phillips

0:05 Speaker 1: Did you hear the claims that Jim Mkatski did make

0:08 Speaker 1: about breach the whole of an unknown craft that did

0:12 Speaker 1: not originate from here. He was running the offset program.

0:16 Speaker 1: Have you heard that claim?

0:17 Speaker 2: We've heard claims a lot of that was compressed in

0:21 Speaker 2: value move.

0:22 Speaker 1: There was a person he came to Arrow with a story.

0:26 Speaker 2: We had a referral when I was the acting director

0:30 Speaker 2: chairman of one of the oversight committees, asked us to

0:34 Speaker 2: meet with an individual that claimed to have reported to

0:38 Speaker 2: us a UAP partner or that was so shooken up

0:43 Speaker 2: so experience that she resigned from the program.

0:46 Speaker 3: He was asked to deliver doctor.

0:50 Speaker 2: Photographs at the Nevada test site, what a lot of

0:53 Speaker 2: the public refers to.

0:54 Speaker 3: As various fifty one.

0:55 Speaker 2: We know that the Soviet Union in the Cold War

0:59 Speaker 2: came up UFO Storia to try to undermine Americans confidence

1:05 Speaker 2: in their government's ability to protect them and tell them

1:09 Speaker 2: the truth about aliens.

1:10 Speaker 3: And I had.

1:11 Speaker 2: Mentioned that the black triangles, because we've known it's a

1:14 Speaker 2: proven engineering design. It helps you know the fly and

1:18 Speaker 2: we'll move from these triangles the flying wings. Unexplained that

1:23 Speaker 2: the true UAP cases.

1:25 Speaker 3: Which I mean I agree with you. About two percent

1:28 Speaker 3: of our cases.

1:29 Speaker 2: It's very, very small, but we can confirm they're there

1:33 Speaker 2: and we don't know what they are.

1:52 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Total Disclosure. My name's Ty and I'm

1:56 Speaker 1: your host and creator. We're pulling back the curtains on

2:00 Speaker 1: one of the most secretive programs inside the US government,

2:03 Speaker 1: the All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office, better known as ARROW.

2:07 Speaker 1: My guest today is Timothy Phillips. He was the former

2:10 Speaker 1: acting director of ARROW, the man who stepped inder doctor

2:14 Speaker 1: Sean Kirkpatrick or some col um doctor evil after his departure.

2:17 Speaker 1: In this exclusive conversation, Tim and I dive into what

2:20 Speaker 1: ARROW really does, how he got involved in the explosive

2:24 Speaker 1: allegations that came with extortion of the program, potentially into

2:28 Speaker 1: internal pressure within the office itself on how to do

2:31 Speaker 1: this stuff and go public with it. If you're ready

2:34 Speaker 1: to hear from someone who's been on the inside, someone

2:36 Speaker 1: who's seen the data, the politics, and the truth behind

2:39 Speaker 1: the headlines, you're in the right place. Hit subscribe, turn

2:41 Speaker 1: on notifications, and if you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify,

2:45 Speaker 1: drop that five star review, because what we're about to

2:48 Speaker 1: hear you won't find anywhere else I'm asking the harder questions.

2:51 Speaker 1: We're talking about UFOs and nukes and how the fiery

2:54 Speaker 1: orbs and black giangle craft are among the most anomalists

2:57 Speaker 1: and Aro doesn't know what those are, which contradicts what

3:00 Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal put out. Now, Tim does try

3:03 Speaker 1: to talk about this hazing ritual that the Wall Street

3:06 Speaker 1: Journal also talked about, and I did challenge him pretty

3:08 Speaker 1: hard on that. And when it comes to using specific

3:11 Speaker 1: language like aliens and not little gray men but for

3:14 Speaker 1: lack of a better term, instead of non human intelligence,

3:17 Speaker 1: is that a way of lying biomission these are tactics

3:19 Speaker 1: that they would have to be used. He even mentions

3:22 Speaker 1: that there are things that Arrow did and this doing

3:25 Speaker 1: that won't be unclassified for seventy five years. So we

3:28 Speaker 1: had a lot to discuss in this part one interview.

3:30 Speaker 1: Next time he'll be in studio. I really hope you

3:32 Speaker 1: enjoy it. I'm super excited I'll see you on the

3:33 Speaker 1: other side.

3:34 Speaker 4: This is total disclosure, a right welcome back.

3:50 Speaker 1: As I said in the intro, we are joined today

3:55 Speaker 1: by Timothy Philip. Welcome. I'm so happy to have you here.

3:58 Speaker 3: Tim, It's great to be today.

4:01 Speaker 1: I listen. I think and I and I've I've interviewed

4:05 Speaker 1: lots of people, lots of you know, And I'm not

4:08 Speaker 1: like like show voting or trying to like, you know,

4:11 Speaker 1: blow smoke up my own ass. But I've interviewed, like,

4:15 Speaker 1: you know, my fair share of big hitters, and nothing

4:18 Speaker 1: has gotten the anticipation and the people in the community

4:24 Speaker 1: as riled up as doing this interview. I don't know

4:29 Speaker 1: what it is about you, but people, Uh, people are

4:33 Speaker 1: paying attention to people are paying attention. So I wanted

4:37 Speaker 1: to start off the conversation and listen, we talked about

4:41 Speaker 1: this in a in a pre phone call. So I

4:45 Speaker 1: just because so many people have talked about it, and

4:49 Speaker 1: so many people have put out these clips about these things,

4:53 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna start anyway. I want to start the

4:56 Speaker 1: way I always wanted to start. And Uh, if you

4:59 Speaker 1: can introduce your self to my audience, to the people

5:02 Speaker 1: who may have not heard you on shows I think

5:05 Speaker 1: you did on the Green Street, which we will touch

5:08 Speaker 1: on with Micwest, which you will touch on. We don't

5:10 Speaker 1: have to get too far into it, but can you

5:13 Speaker 1: tell me, I mean, who is Tim Phillips.

5:16 Speaker 3: I'm a retired government bureaucrat now, but.

5:21 Speaker 2: I kid from an Air Force family, son of an airman,

5:25 Speaker 2: grew up Europe and Asia, and my dad retired from

5:32 Speaker 2: the Air Force team seventy three.

5:36 Speaker 3: Tucson, Arizona, where I attended my last year of you know,

5:44 Speaker 3: started my college career at the University of Arizona. Joined

5:49 Speaker 3: the Marine Corps.

5:50 Speaker 2: Been about two years as a Marine, travel all over

5:54 Speaker 2: the world. Nine to eleven happened still in uniform, I

6:00 Speaker 2: had decided to retire a lot of the rules change

6:04 Speaker 2: concerning transitioning from active military to civil service. They needed

6:10 Speaker 2: people with qualifications and current accesses and clearances, and.

6:16 Speaker 3: One day I was a lieutenant colonel.

6:19 Speaker 2: On the next day I was the GS fifteen Division chief,

6:22 Speaker 2: working at the time at the Defense Information Systems Agency.

6:27 Speaker 2: And then shortly after I put my hand in the

6:30 Speaker 2: air and swore in I would, I was asked if

6:33 Speaker 2: I would volunteer for an assignment.

6:36 Speaker 3: And I asked them what it was, and they told

6:38 Speaker 3: me they couldn't tell me.

6:39 Speaker 2: So I went to the Pentagon and found out that

6:42 Speaker 2: I'd be invading a rock again in two thousand and three.

6:46 Speaker 2: So that was the introduction to the intelligence community. I

6:51 Speaker 2: was with DES for about four years and then when

6:55 Speaker 2: they were standing up the office, the Director of National

6:57 Speaker 2: Intelligence had worked with the staff of Ambassador MEGAPANI there

7:05 Speaker 2: and Baghdad. I became part of the OD and I

7:09 Speaker 2: as they were standing up, and had almost a twenty

7:14 Speaker 2: three year career as a senior National Intelligence Service executive

7:20 Speaker 2: and a senior Intelligence Service officer, so I got to

7:24 Speaker 2: work with our servant CIA. I was at DIA, the

7:28 Speaker 2: National Geospatial Intelligence Agency, So I had a pretty diverse career,

7:34 Speaker 2: and probably the most bizarre assignment I ever had is

7:40 Speaker 2: when my boss at the time, Lieutenant General Cruise, walked among.

7:46 Speaker 2: My last assignment and government service was the deputy and

7:51 Speaker 2: then serving as the acting director of ERROW, which was

7:56 Speaker 2: probably the most fascinating assignment during my forty five year career.

8:02 Speaker 2: I knew absolutely nothing about the UFO UAP world. I

8:08 Speaker 2: knew a lot about technical collection, national security, you know,

8:12 Speaker 2: I was very very aware of that. Did a lot

8:15 Speaker 2: of deployments down range in Iraq and Afghanistan, so I

8:22 Speaker 2: used to work in an war zone. But I had

8:24 Speaker 2: never been part of a large investigative team looking at

8:30 Speaker 2: anomalies and the maritime, air and space domain.

8:33 Speaker 3: So learned a lot about it worked with some amazing people.

8:37 Speaker 2: Never had the scrutiny that we enjoyed reporting back to

8:43 Speaker 2: twelve different committees, committees both the Senate and House.

8:48 Speaker 3: Side, never had anything like that before.

8:51 Speaker 2: And we kind of had a We had two bosses,

8:55 Speaker 2: the deputy you know with the Deputy Secretary of Defense

8:59 Speaker 2: and then working for the principal Director of National Intelligence,

9:02 Speaker 2: and often the Director of National Intelligence would be there

9:06 Speaker 2: and when we went back and briefed them on our

9:08 Speaker 2: developments or investigations. So work.

9:15 Speaker 1: Let me ask you, Let me ask you a question.

9:17 Speaker 1: So were you aware of when were you as being

9:24 Speaker 1: around not around the topic, but just being in the

9:29 Speaker 1: military and being up to speed on things. Did you

9:34 Speaker 1: I mean, before you were ever asked to be a

9:37 Speaker 1: part of Arrow, had you ever thought about UFOs? Had

9:41 Speaker 1: you ever, you know, thought about them in a more

9:44 Speaker 1: serious capacity, maybe even after the twenty seventeen New York

9:48 Speaker 1: Times article and the you know pentagon and the confirming

9:55 Speaker 1: you know all but confirming that there are unidentified had

10:00 Speaker 1: it ever peaud your interest as just a general person beforehand.

10:05 Speaker 3: Not so much the uf or UAP issue.

10:08 Speaker 2: Remember, I was working counter terrorism and dealing with counter

10:12 Speaker 2: proliferation of nuclear weapons, so I had a pretty defined

10:15 Speaker 2: problem set that I was working. We did have a

10:19 Speaker 2: couple of cases downrange, working in Afghanistan where we became

10:25 Speaker 2: aware of the danger of UASS. So we were able

10:29 Speaker 2: to find some moranean systems that had crashed outside some

10:35 Speaker 2: of our facilities in Afghanistan and we realized that we

10:38 Speaker 2: were being surveilled. They're using them for ISR, not strike

10:41 Speaker 2: at the time, but we realized how easy it would

10:44 Speaker 2: have been to weaponize these things and how vulnerable we were.

10:48 Speaker 2: The fact that these things had been flying against our

10:52 Speaker 2: basis for months at a time and we were unable

10:55 Speaker 2: to detect them. So kind of aware of having situational

11:02 Speaker 2: awareness domain was very, very important. And then I've got

11:06 Speaker 2: three years at sea, flew a little bit and I

11:10 Speaker 2: wasn't an aviator as always a grant officer, so you

11:13 Speaker 2: would see things you couldn't understand, you know, I couldn't

11:16 Speaker 2: identify what they were. But since there was never any

11:22 Speaker 2: aggression towards us, it's really never really thought about it.

11:26 Speaker 5: I had enemies who wanted to kill us I had

11:29 Speaker 5: to worry about, so I wasn't about u A, you know,

11:33 Speaker 5: UAP or UFOs during my time in the service or

11:37 Speaker 5: the intelligence community before I served.

11:40 Speaker 1: With ARA interesting, you know, because you know, I find

11:44 Speaker 1: that a lot of people and I asked that for

11:47 Speaker 1: obviously specific reason. I'm trying to set your character up

11:50 Speaker 1: as someone who is you know, and how would you

11:54 Speaker 1: if if I were to ask you before you took

11:57 Speaker 1: the job an arrow your thoughts on and and I'd

12:02 Speaker 1: like you to be as honest as possible. If I

12:06 Speaker 1: were to ask you before you ever heard of arrow,

12:09 Speaker 1: before you ever step foot in any investigation capacity, if

12:13 Speaker 1: I were to ask you, are we alone in the universe?

12:15 Speaker 1: What would I mean? What would your answer be? Would

12:17 Speaker 1: it be yes or no?

12:19 Speaker 3: I would know.

12:22 Speaker 2: I have never had any you know, personal experience myself.

12:28 Speaker 2: I know there's credible people that have experienced things they

12:32 Speaker 2: couldn't understand and their their assessment was with some type

12:35 Speaker 2: of supernatural event.

12:38 Speaker 3: But to that.

12:42 Speaker 2: It never bothered me. I honored I knew these people professionally,

12:50 Speaker 2: they saw things they didn't understand. And during my generation,

12:54 Speaker 2: to report a UFO incident that could be queer ending.

13:00 Speaker 2: If you're flying and you reported something, the next thing

13:04 Speaker 2: you know, you're talking to the shrink. You're talking to

13:06 Speaker 2: the surgeon and you could be losing you know, your

13:09 Speaker 2: your tickets to fly.

13:11 Speaker 1: Right, you'd be flying a desk for the rest of

13:13 Speaker 1: your career exactly.

13:15 Speaker 2: My father flew. And that's just not something they discussed.

13:19 Speaker 2: They saw something they didn't understand, they kept it to

13:22 Speaker 2: themselves unless it was a threat, right, And I would

13:26 Speaker 2: say that's one of the great things we tried to

13:29 Speaker 2: do with the Office to remove that stigma, and that

13:33 Speaker 2: encourage military and intel personnel to report what they saw.

13:37 Speaker 2: We're not going to understand it unless people are free

13:39 Speaker 2: to report, you know, their experiences and working with DAFT

13:44 Speaker 2: J three and actually you know, getting directives out there

13:47 Speaker 2: to the Apartment of Fense saying if you have, you know,

13:51 Speaker 2: u a p u FO incident, you will report it.

13:54 Speaker 2: And more just as importantly, you're going to restain you know,

13:57 Speaker 2: retain data.

13:59 Speaker 3: You know.

13:59 Speaker 2: Part of the frustrating aspect of this job as we

14:04 Speaker 2: were looking back at cases twenty twenty five years old,

14:07 Speaker 2: the fact that there was no direction to the force

14:12 Speaker 2: actually to preserve data. So it was very frust used

14:16 Speaker 2: to go back and understand the cases. And of course

14:19 Speaker 2: our scientists want to work with the original data set.

14:23 Speaker 2: You know the zero ones and you know, apply tools

14:27 Speaker 2: to try to extract you know, some type of intelligence

14:30 Speaker 2: from what we were seeing. Right, So that was probably

14:35 Speaker 2: the biggest change, is the fact that you remove the

14:38 Speaker 2: stigma there was you know, there was actually a directive

14:41 Speaker 2: to report, and the fact that you could report these

14:45 Speaker 2: things without your credibility or sanity being questioned or you know,

14:52 Speaker 2: risk losing access or a security clearance. That was a

14:56 Speaker 2: that was a sea change in the government. Didn't happened before, right.

15:01 Speaker 1: Right, And this is you know, and then Congress has mandated,

15:05 Speaker 1: you know, Congress mandates the Arrow Office, and things are

15:12 Speaker 1: changing in the world, and I think, you know, the

15:16 Speaker 1: UFO community, on one hand, you know, we're really spoiled

15:22 Speaker 1: in that way that you know, twenty years ago, any

15:26 Speaker 1: one of these hearings, any one of these offices being

15:31 Speaker 1: established like Arrow, you know, aside from maybe you know,

15:36 Speaker 1: post Project Blue Book, of course, but you know this,

15:41 Speaker 1: it would be it would be the only thing talked

15:44 Speaker 1: about for years and years. And now it's you know,

15:47 Speaker 1: things are happening every day, and a lot you know,

15:50 Speaker 1: I know people don't think that Arrow does a lot,

15:53 Speaker 1: but you know, part of why we're here is to

15:55 Speaker 1: explain that you know there is or to to find out,

16:00 Speaker 1: like should should ARROW continue to be funded? And so

16:06 Speaker 1: when did so? When were you asked to be a

16:10 Speaker 1: part of Arrow? And why?

16:14 Speaker 3: Going back we've been with the fall of twenty three

16:23 Speaker 3: is when.

16:25 Speaker 2: I was actually asked to be part of ARROW. So

16:30 Speaker 2: I think I got there in October of twenty twenty

16:35 Speaker 2: three is when I showed up as the deputy and

16:38 Speaker 2: then Sean left the government in December of twenty twenty three,

16:46 Speaker 2: and then I became the acting Well maybe we've been

16:49 Speaker 2: the following year twenty four, because say it's twenty five, Yeah,

16:52 Speaker 2: it would have been. I was there about eighteen months,

16:55 Speaker 2: so it would have been all of twenty four and

17:00 Speaker 2: it started in October twenty three working with Sean.

17:04 Speaker 1: So why do you think they asked you to be

17:08 Speaker 1: a part of that.

17:10 Speaker 2: They wanted a career intel officer that was absolutely neutral

17:15 Speaker 2: on the subject. I knew nothing about it. However, I

17:20 Speaker 2: was the former director of Technical Collection and OD and

17:27 Speaker 2: I I had worked a number of.

17:33 Speaker 3: Sensitive reconnaissance operations.

17:35 Speaker 2: I maintained the book for it to the SRO program.

17:40 Speaker 2: I was an expert with a lot of both airborne

17:43 Speaker 2: and overhead.

17:44 Speaker 3: National technical means.

17:46 Speaker 2: I knew a lot about collection and orchestrating collection, working

17:50 Speaker 2: with other INTEL collectors, working with foreigners, and as I

17:55 Speaker 2: talked to Sean about the possibility of working there, I

17:59 Speaker 2: saw as a hard problem, kind of fascinating wonder if

18:03 Speaker 2: you were to take all the elements of national you know, power,

18:06 Speaker 2: are capabilities to kind of understand this phenomenon. There has

18:11 Speaker 2: never been an organization that the government has established to

18:15 Speaker 2: actually investigate UAPs similar to ERROW. You know, if you

18:21 Speaker 2: go back at Project Bluebook and the derivatives after that,

18:25 Speaker 2: they never had They never worked at the cabinet level,

18:29 Speaker 2: They never had access to information any classification level the

18:34 Speaker 2: way ERROW had. They never had the authority to go

18:38 Speaker 2: out and have joint duty assignments and be able to

18:41 Speaker 2: recruit some of the best and brighters from throughout the government.

18:47 Speaker 2: Arrow had people come to us from NASA, DHF, FBI,

18:52 Speaker 2: all of the o D, all of the intelligence community.

18:56 Speaker 2: At one time we had four senior executives on the

19:00 Speaker 2: staff at ARROW. We had a lot of horsepower, we

19:03 Speaker 2: had a lot of expertise, We had an amazing, amazing budget,

19:08 Speaker 2: the very very well resourced and probably most important importantly,

19:14 Speaker 2: we had the support of the most senior members of

19:18 Speaker 2: the Department Offense and the inteligence community. So when I

19:22 Speaker 2: would go in and brief the Director of National Intelligence

19:25 Speaker 2: or the Deputy Secretary of Defense, I would always be asked, Hey,

19:32 Speaker 2: is there anything we can do for you?

19:33 Speaker 3: Is there anybody not cooperating?

19:36 Speaker 2: Just unprecedented support and access to any program. You know,

19:42 Speaker 2: at one time we were investigating claims of over forty

19:48 Speaker 2: special access and controlled access programs allegedly dealing with the

19:54 Speaker 2: recovery or the exploitation of.

20:00 Speaker 3: UFO materials or uap.

20:03 Speaker 2: Okay e t that those are the claims that we

20:07 Speaker 2: were We had UH supporting investigations with both the Department

20:14 Speaker 2: Defense i G and the i C i G. We

20:18 Speaker 2: had a secure reporting mechanism were current and former government

20:24 Speaker 2: employees or our contractors could contact us securely. We would

20:30 Speaker 2: maintain their.

20:33 Speaker 3: UH anonymity absolutely absolutely.

20:37 Speaker 2: We'd give them a random number and we would protect

20:41 Speaker 2: their identities. And that's when I first realized that, you know,

20:45 Speaker 2: there were there were Americans that were scared to death

20:48 Speaker 2: to talk to us.

20:49 Speaker 3: They were very concerned about being harmed.

20:53 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that brings up a really good segue.

20:56 Speaker 1: And because and and and I I think if all

21:04 Speaker 1: of this was just light in the sky, I don't

21:09 Speaker 1: think people would be scared for their life to come

21:13 Speaker 1: forward and to want to, you know, gain nothing from it.

21:20 Speaker 1: I mean some of the people that like you said

21:23 Speaker 1: that you had come to you, that they literally they

21:26 Speaker 1: feared for their life. Now I know that we I

21:29 Speaker 1: think most people in the UFO community, if they're smart, right,

21:33 Speaker 1: if they're up to speed, we know that ninety five

21:36 Speaker 1: percent of what seen can be prosaically explained. There is

21:40 Speaker 1: a five percent margin, and if I'm being very generous,

21:45 Speaker 1: two percent of that is really anomalous in my in

21:50 Speaker 1: statistical means, that is a very small percentage. So you know,

21:55 Speaker 1: arrows it seems what arrow is is at least mandated

21:59 Speaker 1: to do. Or the idea and the mission was to

22:02 Speaker 1: sift through all the data and find that two percent

22:08 Speaker 1: and the people that are coming to you that are

22:09 Speaker 1: fearing for their lives. I mean, it's got to make

22:14 Speaker 1: this pretty real, right, Well, it was.

22:17 Speaker 2: Real to them what we got from these individuals and

22:22 Speaker 2: be able to align that with hard evidence and data

22:28 Speaker 2: that we can scientifically examined to understand the phenomena. Really

22:33 Speaker 2: wasn't there a lot of these people who came in

22:36 Speaker 2: with these amazing claims that the government had recovered and

22:40 Speaker 2: were reverse engineering or exploit exploiting alien technologies. We never

22:47 Speaker 2: could find any hard evidence to back any of that up.

22:50 Speaker 2: There were a lot of drives.

22:53 Speaker 1: Can I ask you something sure when you say alien,

22:57 Speaker 1: this is something that arrow does and this is something

23:00 Speaker 1: I do want cleared up for myself. When you say alien,

23:06 Speaker 1: and when Arrows reports say extraterrestrial, why be so.

23:14 Speaker 2: We would refer to material sentient beings from a planet

23:20 Speaker 2: other than ours extraterrestrial using that that term.

23:24 Speaker 1: But wouldn't that so? But if you say you found

23:27 Speaker 1: evidence of ultra terrestrial something that that had been here

23:31 Speaker 1: for you know, somehow is been developing alongside us, and somehow,

23:39 Speaker 1: you know, is of avoiding us. Like and I'm just

23:43 Speaker 1: I'm really asking this as a question, and I I

23:48 Speaker 1: if something you know, to suspend a little belief here

23:52 Speaker 1: to walk with me. You know, if something had been

23:55 Speaker 1: here and maybe is now what people see as UFOs

24:00 Speaker 1: and it had been here the whole time, I mean

24:02 Speaker 1: by definition that would not be extraterrestrial. So what I

24:05 Speaker 1: mean is why be so specific because some people think

24:09 Speaker 1: that is Arrow trying to pin it on aliens in

24:13 Speaker 1: green men and then not address the fact that you know,

24:17 Speaker 1: angels and demons are non human intelligence. They're not aliens,

24:21 Speaker 1: but they're by definition non human intelligence, and I think

24:26 Speaker 1: that's what we should be looking for, not aliens, because

24:29 Speaker 1: that's specific.

24:31 Speaker 3: Okay, I see your point. We had no evidence of.

24:39 Speaker 2: Anything that we recovered or was given to us that

24:44 Speaker 2: we examined to come from any other planet.

24:48 Speaker 3: Than our own.

24:52 Speaker 2: The technologies that we did examine, the phenomenons that we

24:56 Speaker 2: did observe, were designed and operated by human beings. One

25:03 Speaker 2: of the things that was I think frustrated a lot

25:06 Speaker 2: of people didn't understand what was the value of ERROW.

25:11 Speaker 2: Errow produced quite a bit of new understanding of foreign

25:19 Speaker 2: technologies and new capabilities.

25:22 Speaker 3: So two of Arrow's missions that were not widely known.

25:25 Speaker 2: Was technological and operational surprise. ERROW would pick up we

25:32 Speaker 2: would have the services of the intelligence community using their

25:36 Speaker 2: operational platforms or ISR systems, would pick up a signature

25:41 Speaker 2: that didn't correspond with something known. So we would have

25:45 Speaker 2: a partial signature of a system that did not correspond with,

25:53 Speaker 2: say the enemy order battle capability. We didn't know what

25:56 Speaker 2: this was, so it would be reported to as a

26:00 Speaker 2: UAP and then we would throw a lot of science,

26:04 Speaker 2: a lot of sensors. We would put together some integrated

26:07 Speaker 2: collection plans trying to find exactly what is that, and

26:12 Speaker 2: then working with the community, try to put together the

26:16 Speaker 2: pieces to understand the puzzle. And there was and there

26:21 Speaker 2: was intelligence reporting, Okay, that originally started off as a

26:27 Speaker 2: UAP incident report. So we would have an F thirty

26:32 Speaker 2: five platform would pick up an unusual signature of something

26:36 Speaker 2: we didn't understand, and then Errow, working with the community,

26:40 Speaker 2: would go after it, and then we would able to

26:44 Speaker 2: produce new understanding of say a new or emerging foreign

26:53 Speaker 2: you know, aircraft capability that we just observed for the

26:57 Speaker 2: first time. Errol did a lot of that. Now that's

27:00 Speaker 2: going to be classified reporting, the public's never going to

27:03 Speaker 2: see it, and that was one of the frustrating things.

27:06 Speaker 3: People are saying, what does zero do?

27:08 Speaker 2: Erol did quite a bit, but you're not going to

27:11 Speaker 2: be able to see it declassified for seventy five years,

27:14 Speaker 2: so it's going to take a while for that to

27:16 Speaker 2: get out there. But we did work very very closely

27:20 Speaker 2: with the service Intelligence Lab, so we would work on

27:25 Speaker 2: the National Air and Space Intelligence Center or the National

27:31 Speaker 2: Space Intelligence Center. We would get reports and we look

27:37 Speaker 2: at it and the first thing that we would do

27:40 Speaker 2: is is there any other system that may have detected

27:46 Speaker 2: that incident? So we would start in space. Can we

27:49 Speaker 2: do a lot of space surveillance?

27:51 Speaker 3: Okay?

27:52 Speaker 2: Can we establish a track? Did anything de orbit? Was

27:57 Speaker 2: there any data that we could get from web radar? Okay,

28:01 Speaker 2: from air traffic control, radar, surveillance, radar, biostatic, you know, processing,

28:11 Speaker 2: So we can So there's an incident. Now we have

28:15 Speaker 2: hard data that can prove the exist and now we've

28:18 Speaker 2: got a heading, we've got a speed, we've got an altitude.

28:22 Speaker 2: So now we can build a track. And now we

28:24 Speaker 2: haven't observed of what happened. Where then can we take

28:30 Speaker 2: those facts and kind of have an understanding of what

28:33 Speaker 2: the incident was. Errol did a lot of that, and

28:39 Speaker 2: most of the data that we needed was available. We

28:42 Speaker 2: just never had the network or the tools to be able,

28:45 Speaker 2: you know, to exploit it. So we're talking large data.

28:50 Speaker 2: You needed to have an architecture fast enough and large

28:54 Speaker 2: enough to take this data and you aggregate the data

28:58 Speaker 2: so now the data is going to be at a

28:59 Speaker 2: higher classification level than any individual data stream to kind

29:04 Speaker 2: of understand and build that common operational picture. So you

29:08 Speaker 2: can say, yeah, okay, that incident corresponds with that track

29:13 Speaker 2: what is it?

29:15 Speaker 1: And and I totally understand why ARROW in all of

29:21 Speaker 1: the ways that you just described doing that actual legwork

29:26 Speaker 1: is actually is really valuable. However, I can't help but

29:31 Speaker 1: hear a natural flaw in the process because if you

29:38 Speaker 1: had and and and forgive you know, not forgive me,

29:43 Speaker 1: but forgive me if I if I don't say the

29:47 Speaker 1: right words, because all the acronyms are they're sometimes a

29:50 Speaker 1: little bit confusing when you're trying to jumple them all.

29:52 Speaker 1: But you guys had title is it Title fifteen and title.

29:59 Speaker 2: Intelligence, Title ten is Department Offense, that's military, okay, okay.

30:08 Speaker 2: And then you would have legal authorities from law enforcement

30:12 Speaker 2: through the FBI or DS Title eighteen, Title fourteen, So

30:17 Speaker 2: we would work together in a task force. There would

30:22 Speaker 2: be an incident, and you would bring in officers from

30:25 Speaker 2: these other agencies. They would bring their authorities. ARROW would

30:31 Speaker 2: would be the aggregated think of AARROW as taking all

30:36 Speaker 2: these legal authorities inc but we have permission to work

30:38 Speaker 2: with everybody in their data and we could produce a

30:42 Speaker 2: common operational pitchers to kind of layout this is our

30:47 Speaker 2: understanding of what is going on, and then from that,

30:52 Speaker 2: if it's domestic DHS, FBI, local tribal, they could respond

30:57 Speaker 2: operationally got it.

31:00 Speaker 3: So that was kind of the work that ARROW did.

31:04 Speaker 3: Primarily when we would have.

31:08 Speaker 2: State, local tribal dhs, they would pick up things that

31:13 Speaker 2: they thought were UAPs, But as we got in and

31:16 Speaker 2: started to examine the cases, we realized there were uass

31:22 Speaker 2: So we started actually developing and researching a lot of

31:26 Speaker 2: counter UAS systems that were kind of that short range

31:32 Speaker 2: detection system. There's a lot of great systems out there

31:35 Speaker 2: that we would incorporate with our answer grids and our

31:39 Speaker 2: active sensors, so we would have passive and active emitters.

31:43 Speaker 2: So we would go into an area where we had

31:46 Speaker 2: a UAP incident and then we would try to capture

31:49 Speaker 2: it in near real time to understand what was going on.

31:53 Speaker 2: And since ERO is a DoD organization okay, partnering with

31:58 Speaker 2: the intelligence community, we were looking at it from a

32:02 Speaker 2: national security perspective. So we have detected some airborne system

32:08 Speaker 2: operating and restricted airspace. Okay, why is it there, who's

32:12 Speaker 2: operating it? And what are their interests? That was a

32:17 Speaker 2: great concern to us, because, as you can imagine, there's

32:20 Speaker 2: a lot of sensitive sites that our country wants.

32:25 Speaker 1: Which I will want to get to. But so what

32:28 Speaker 1: I what I meant by all that was now say Arrow,

32:32 Speaker 1: and again here here we go down down a little

32:36 Speaker 1: bit of the rabbit hole. Okay, say I'm Arrow as

32:40 Speaker 1: an entity, and I come across because I have the clearance,

32:46 Speaker 1: I come across a unacknowledged special access program, something that's

32:52 Speaker 1: deep black, deep covert, right, and I learn about something,

32:59 Speaker 1: And I mean, i'd like to have you probably address this.

33:02 Speaker 1: But even guys like Jim Lakatski have claimed that OSAPP

33:07 Speaker 1: breached the whole of a UFO. And I'm sure Green

33:11 Speaker 1: Street had brought that part up to you, But if

33:14 Speaker 1: they had, if you had come across something that was

33:16 Speaker 1: deep dark, and and you've already said it, some of

33:19 Speaker 1: the stuff that Arrow's done, we're not going to hear

33:21 Speaker 1: about seventy five years. So how do we know that

33:24 Speaker 1: you didn't find anything? And it's not just I mean,

33:27 Speaker 1: wouldn't you be required by law by your oath and

33:31 Speaker 1: by your duty to lie to me like and lie

33:34 Speaker 1: to and and I'm saying this really honestly, and and

33:38 Speaker 1: and in the most sincere way, Like, wouldn't it be

33:42 Speaker 1: your duty to tell me that you didn't find it

33:45 Speaker 1: for operational reasons?

33:49 Speaker 2: Well, ERROL never was a originating classification authority, so we

33:58 Speaker 2: didn't have a classification, but we provided guidance on how

34:03 Speaker 2: to classify UAP related topics. So the fact that a

34:10 Speaker 2: UAP exists or was detected wasn't necessarily classified or sensitive. However,

34:18 Speaker 2: if that incident occurred in restricted airspace or acknowledge some

34:25 Speaker 2: type of failure in a surveillance or a defensive system

34:30 Speaker 2: to protect that restricted or protected site, that would be

34:35 Speaker 2: a little bit sensitive. If ERROL had actually found a

34:43 Speaker 2: system that was not man made, and you know, we

34:48 Speaker 2: came across a you know, a crash site or you know,

34:53 Speaker 2: remains or some hard evidence that there was something an

34:57 Speaker 2: advanced capability or system that was not you know, engineered,

35:03 Speaker 2: manufactured and operated by humans. The fact that that existed,

35:08 Speaker 2: we actually talked with Public Affairs and thought that would

35:12 Speaker 2: well go well beyond the authority of the Aero Director

35:15 Speaker 2: and there'd be a lot of coordination with the executive

35:18 Speaker 2: and the White House on how they wanted to share

35:22 Speaker 2: that with the American people. That probably wouldn't be the

35:24 Speaker 2: director of VERO sharing the fact that we found remnants

35:29 Speaker 2: of a spacecraft that we couldn't identify with attributes of

35:36 Speaker 2: new technologies and capabilities that were not human made. If

35:41 Speaker 2: that happened, and it did not happen, we would probably

35:46 Speaker 2: kick that up to the White House and let them

35:48 Speaker 2: share that information.

35:50 Speaker 1: But you see my conundrum here, right, You do see

35:53 Speaker 1: my conundrum here, Probably I do.

35:57 Speaker 2: But part of the the task that Aarrow had from

36:03 Speaker 2: Congressional oversight, they were looking and as as federal officers,

36:10 Speaker 2: you know, we we had gun carrying law you know,

36:13 Speaker 2: federal law enforcement officers on our staff.

36:16 Speaker 3: So if we found evidence of a crime, if we found.

36:20 Speaker 2: A program that was being concealed from overside where they

36:26 Speaker 2: were using you know, federal funds without authority, that's a crime.

36:32 Speaker 2: And Congress was very very sensitive to that, and we

36:36 Speaker 2: actually had you know, a hotline. We had a way

36:40 Speaker 2: that people could call in their belief that there was

36:45 Speaker 2: a undeclared sapper cap that was being concealed from oversight,

36:50 Speaker 2: and we aggressively researched those and investigated those cases.

36:56 Speaker 3: And we did it in parallel with.

36:59 Speaker 2: IG with both the Department Offense and with the intelligence community.

37:04 Speaker 2: We would weekly meetings where we would say this is

37:08 Speaker 2: what we heard from the witness and we would go

37:10 Speaker 2: back and forth, you know, without comper minding our you know,

37:15 Speaker 2: our ability to honor NBA's and they're and agreements we

37:22 Speaker 2: had with witnesses. We would always protect those making protected disclosures.

37:27 Speaker 2: But there was a lot of coordination and there were

37:31 Speaker 2: plenty of JAG officers and attorneys with an Apartment of

37:36 Speaker 2: Justice to give us legal guidance on how to pursue

37:40 Speaker 2: these cases.

37:41 Speaker 1: Great, which is great, and that kind of brings me

37:43 Speaker 1: to a point here which I think is good. Uh

37:48 Speaker 1: it is now Uh With that being said, what what?

37:56 Speaker 1: And I want to wrap this in a bit ribbon here.

38:01 Speaker 1: Did you hear the claims that Jim mccatsky did make

38:03 Speaker 1: about preaching the whole of a craft of a of

38:07 Speaker 1: an unknown What he said, and this is again this

38:11 Speaker 1: is verbatim, breached the whole of a of an unknown

38:16 Speaker 1: craft that did not originate from here, and he was

38:20 Speaker 1: running the offset program. Have you heard that claim?

38:24 Speaker 3: We've heard claims.

38:25 Speaker 2: A lot of that was addressed and volume on of

38:29 Speaker 2: the historical report, which we did in a very compressive

38:33 Speaker 2: amount of time.

38:35 Speaker 1: Of course, Oh yeah, we got it.

38:36 Speaker 2: I'm sure there's an ademdum to it. With some new

38:40 Speaker 2: findings on that report after Sean left and some of

38:44 Speaker 2: the fallow up investigations that we had, and new claims

38:48 Speaker 2: that were brought in, new interviews, new referrals from Congress

38:52 Speaker 2: and the IG. We continue to research these claims because

38:56 Speaker 2: it was of interest both to the Cabinet Secretary and

39:01 Speaker 2: to the oversight officials and the committees that we worked

39:05 Speaker 2: with up on the hill. But we never, even when

39:09 Speaker 2: we had materials delivered or claims that these materials came

39:14 Speaker 2: from a non human craft or system. In every case

39:19 Speaker 2: where we had independent labs verify the you know, the

39:24 Speaker 2: identity of the materials, we never discovered or were able

39:30 Speaker 2: to validate any claim that that material came from a craft,

39:34 Speaker 2: not you know, a non human craft that did not

39:37 Speaker 2: happen during my time in era. And we spent millions

39:41 Speaker 2: of dollars doing these analysis of these materials.

39:54 Speaker 3: Okay, I'm getting I was muted.

39:56 Speaker 1: I was muted. That was my fault. I wanted to

39:59 Speaker 1: give you the floor. So with that, with that being said,

40:05 Speaker 1: so with materials, I find that to be very interesting

40:08 Speaker 1: because obviously guys like doctor Gary Nolan are saying different things.

40:16 Speaker 1: You know him at Stanford. What he's saying is they've

40:20 Speaker 1: come across any materials that the isotopic ratios don't match

40:27 Speaker 1: anything on Earth and they're atomically layered. Were you guys

40:32 Speaker 1: given any of those materials to also analyze and come

40:36 Speaker 1: up with maybe, you know, any collaboration with that effort.

40:43 Speaker 2: We didn't work with him. The labs that we used

40:48 Speaker 2: to do the material analysis were basically the old Manhattan programs,

40:53 Speaker 2: the Department of Energy Labs San Dia, Oakridge, we worked with.

41:00 Speaker 1: Do you think do you think is it possible? Is

41:05 Speaker 1: it I mean, I'm I'm and I'm really genuinely curious.

41:10 Speaker 1: Is it possible that there are there are metals or

41:15 Speaker 1: parts out there, uh, that people do have that may

41:20 Speaker 1: still be anomaloust.

41:23 Speaker 2: Nothing that was ever shared, There was no materials that

41:27 Speaker 2: was ever shared with Marrow that have any unusual characteristics.

41:32 Speaker 3: Everything now we looked at came from this planet.

41:36 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, and that's fair enough. I definitely think you know,

41:41 Speaker 1: you guys should run down I mean because because Gary Nolan,

41:44 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure, uh is it works with the CIA,

41:47 Speaker 1: and or at least has worked with the CIA. So

41:51 Speaker 1: I'd be I'd be interested to find out why a

41:55 Speaker 1: guy like that would make claims like that, knowing and

41:59 Speaker 1: and and that had there's there's other stories.

42:06 Speaker 2: U a p UFO crash. Parts wanted to come to

42:09 Speaker 2: Aryon and say, hey, this is the pedigree. One of

42:12 Speaker 2: the one of the challenges we had when people had

42:15 Speaker 2: parts is we would go back and almost like it

42:19 Speaker 2: was evidence using a trial, so you know, proper custody

42:25 Speaker 2: and document who possessed it.

42:29 Speaker 3: You know, how was it controlled.

42:31 Speaker 2: And It's funny as you were getting closer to the

42:37 Speaker 2: the actual incident where the material was collected, a lot

42:41 Speaker 2: of that, you know, the details seemed to be lost.

42:47 Speaker 3: You know.

42:48 Speaker 2: We we had materials were sitting on a warehouse in

42:51 Speaker 2: a shell for the last forty years. But as we

42:53 Speaker 2: try to get back to where that matuial was collected,

42:57 Speaker 2: the trail would go cold. And we did have people

43:01 Speaker 2: that contacted er. We actually had citizens that went to

43:06 Speaker 2: their congressional representative and they wanted er to validate the

43:10 Speaker 2: fact that they actually had a UFO crash card. So

43:15 Speaker 2: I want to go on the road, and they wanted

43:17 Speaker 2: that seal of approval from RYW. You know, we're not

43:21 Speaker 2: in the business help people make money. However, if there

43:25 Speaker 2: was an entity that had worked with a part of

43:28 Speaker 2: the US government and they claimed they had material that

43:32 Speaker 2: was part of some type of UAP or UFO incident,

43:37 Speaker 2: Ero would love to help them go back and actually

43:41 Speaker 2: identify the material.

43:43 Speaker 3: We can do that. We have an active program.

43:46 Speaker 2: We've invested millions of dollars in equipment and clean rooms

43:52 Speaker 2: and procedures where we could take custody of a piece

43:57 Speaker 2: of material, do a double blind study, have different teams

44:01 Speaker 2: work on different you know, parts of a you know,

44:05 Speaker 2: a piece of material and come up independently with what

44:08 Speaker 2: they thought it was.

44:09 Speaker 3: And we love that.

44:12 Speaker 2: And but every time that that was done, the materials

44:16 Speaker 2: came from this sort.

44:17 Speaker 1: Of okay, and and that's and that's fair enough. I

44:22 Speaker 1: want to I want to you know, speaking of parts

44:26 Speaker 1: and evidence. Uh, there there was this claim made and

44:32 Speaker 1: people have asked me to and we talked, like I said,

44:37 Speaker 1: we talked about this on the phone and you you

44:41 Speaker 1: had just brought up that's you know, Arrow try or

44:44 Speaker 1: someone tried to get Arrow's seal of approval. There was

44:47 Speaker 1: another claim made that there was a person and he

44:50 Speaker 1: now goes by whistling mic on on X I believe,

44:56 Speaker 1: and he's made some claims, and Burlison has said he's

45:03 Speaker 1: an interesting person and he's a defense contractor who's trying

45:08 Speaker 1: to get contracts with the US government and he came

45:12 Speaker 1: to Arrow with a story. And what you say is

45:17 Speaker 1: that there was an attempt at extortion. Can you address

45:23 Speaker 1: this and clear this up what happened there?

45:26 Speaker 2: Well, Errol doesn't comment on people that come to them

45:30 Speaker 2: with UAP incident claims. We protect their identities, but what if.

45:37 Speaker 1: They blow their identity.

45:39 Speaker 3: Well, that's up to them.

45:40 Speaker 2: We've had we had a referral when I was the

45:44 Speaker 2: acting director chairman of one of the oversight committees asked

45:48 Speaker 2: us to meet with an individual that claimed to have

45:54 Speaker 2: reported to US a UAP part. When we actually met

45:58 Speaker 2: with this individual, what we realized is the claim was

46:03 Speaker 2: that he recovered a part that fell from an advanced

46:10 Speaker 2: US Dealth aircraft. So the part that he recovered was

46:16 Speaker 2: actually a piece of government property.

46:20 Speaker 3: This individual came up with a new.

46:25 Speaker 2: Manufacturing process to duplicate the part, wanted, found a or

46:33 Speaker 2: developed a procedure to be able to detect these advanced aircraft.

46:38 Speaker 2: At one point there was a claim that wanted us

46:42 Speaker 2: to purchase the part or there was going to sell

46:45 Speaker 2: it to another foreign entity, such as the Chinese. To US,

46:50 Speaker 2: that sounded like it stortion, and that's how we treated it,

46:53 Speaker 2: and we referred it off to the FBI. But that

46:55 Speaker 2: was kind of the end of that. The fact that

46:58 Speaker 2: someone recovered apart from America raft, that right there means

47:02 Speaker 2: it's not it's not an arrows mission set.

47:06 Speaker 3: Aero investigates u A P right, if it's a US

47:10 Speaker 3: advanced aircraft, has nothing to do with you, ap.

47:14 Speaker 1: Okay, So there, there's so what And we don't have

47:18 Speaker 1: to talk about any We don't have to infer anyone.

47:21 Speaker 1: So what what the What the scenario was was there

47:25 Speaker 1: was a person who claimed to have a part. You

47:31 Speaker 1: discovered that it was from a next gen fighter, but

47:34 Speaker 1: it already been They claim.

47:35 Speaker 3: It was from an advanced concept.

47:38 Speaker 1: Oh gotcha, gotchat.

47:45 Speaker 2: The individual had some images, never shared any of those

47:50 Speaker 2: videos with us. We we'd asked for them we did

47:54 Speaker 2: from the the chairman, we did get a still image

47:59 Speaker 2: of a aircraft and advanced allegedly it was advanced stealth

48:04 Speaker 2: you know, aircraft that was in development. Congress was concerned

48:10 Speaker 2: that there's been some type of compromise and that these

48:14 Speaker 2: images of this aircraft that got out into the public.

48:18 Speaker 2: Was very concerned about a leak. That's one reason I

48:22 Speaker 2: was asked to go out to the Nevada Test Range

48:26 Speaker 2: to actually meet with the program managers that were developing

48:30 Speaker 2: the sixth generation aircraft out there, and I did that.

48:38 Speaker 2: We analyzed the image and the image looked like a

48:41 Speaker 2: promotion video that had come from an aircraft manufacturer. It

48:48 Speaker 2: kind of looked like an F one seventeen on steroids.

48:53 Speaker 2: The vast majority of our aerospace engineers thought it was,

49:01 Speaker 2: you know, a photoshop version of something that was in

49:06 Speaker 2: a promotional video. And that's what we reported back to

49:10 Speaker 2: the Hill. And again, it wasn't a UAP, it was

49:14 Speaker 2: a stealth aircraft. So it really wasn't in our lane.

49:18 Speaker 1: So so did this person ever even make it to

49:21 Speaker 1: a skiff?

49:24 Speaker 3: Yes, to talk to us?

49:26 Speaker 1: Okay, So there so there was a meeting and a

49:29 Speaker 1: skiff with that individual and then it was referred to

49:33 Speaker 1: federal law enforcement because there was a concern by Congress

49:38 Speaker 1: that there was a breed somewhere in that. Yeah.

49:42 Speaker 2: No, No, the concern was an extortion attempt. The other

49:47 Speaker 2: concerned Congress had it they could have had a compromise

49:50 Speaker 2: and you yeah, an individual with a you know, an

49:54 Speaker 2: image of an advanced concept aircraft, right, that was the concern.

49:59 Speaker 2: But again that's really not Arrow's mission set. We'll turn

50:02 Speaker 2: that over to you know, a d o DC will

50:06 Speaker 2: let them work that.

50:07 Speaker 1: Yes, totally totally understandable. And you know, I think that

50:15 Speaker 1: you know, that just goes to say uh or it

50:18 Speaker 1: goes to show at least how many So it does

50:21 Speaker 1: show that ARROW is working really and intently uh with

50:27 Speaker 1: other agencies. So you guys are cooperating and have in

50:33 Speaker 1: law enforcement that is working with you. That that that

50:36 Speaker 1: you you're able to refer these things too.

50:39 Speaker 3: Well.

50:39 Speaker 2: Absolutely, as a you know, as a country, we really

50:44 Speaker 2: really have to federate and work with state, local tribal

50:48 Speaker 2: authorities to understand the phenomena. We looked if we were

50:54 Speaker 2: working with North kom because one of the things that

50:57 Speaker 2: we were working that we were developing was a UAP

50:59 Speaker 2: record plan as you can imagine.

51:02 Speaker 1: Oh, an actual recovery plan.

51:05 Speaker 2: Because I was asked when early on members of Congress,

51:09 Speaker 2: a committee chairman came to me and wanted to see

51:12 Speaker 2: the plan. And I was pretty new to this business

51:16 Speaker 2: and Sean had left, so I had gone back and asked,

51:20 Speaker 2: do we have is there a UAP recovery plan?

51:23 Speaker 3: Can someone show something to me?

51:25 Speaker 2: So there was some things we found that they thought

51:28 Speaker 2: were part of the majestic program and the a was

51:34 Speaker 2: it was fake. But we had actually working with d

51:38 Speaker 2: O D in the Northern Command actually to put together

51:42 Speaker 2: an actual recovery plan. Is as you know, you know,

51:46 Speaker 2: we do have organizations that recover you know, fallen satellites

51:52 Speaker 2: or objects from space as things re entry into our atmosphere.

51:58 Speaker 2: Often they have had are just fuels or payloads and

52:02 Speaker 2: it could be dangerous. So we have doo D teams

52:07 Speaker 2: on standby actually to fly out and work with state, local,

52:11 Speaker 2: tribal authorities to help clean these things up.

52:14 Speaker 3: We do that, but.

52:16 Speaker 1: This could also I mean, is it safe to say

52:21 Speaker 1: that one of these protocols, if ever there was an

52:26 Speaker 1: incident with a crashed legitimate UFO, that this one of

52:31 Speaker 1: these recovery plans could be utilized in case of that

52:37 Speaker 1: kind of scenario.

52:38 Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, because to agree that DoD does extremely well

52:44 Speaker 2: is planned.

52:45 Speaker 1: Right, and that's what I think we've all assumed, you know, happened,

52:50 Speaker 1: but you'd.

52:51 Speaker 3: Have a plan.

52:52 Speaker 2: So Errol was work with Northcomb to put together a plan,

52:55 Speaker 2: and we realized the actual person you know, probability of

53:02 Speaker 2: a UAP landing on federal property or a military base

53:07 Speaker 2: is actually pretty small. It would actually land in the

53:11 Speaker 2: farmer's field or in state property, and then you have

53:15 Speaker 2: DoD providing support to domestic authorities. So that's why we

53:21 Speaker 2: had partner with the Northern Command because that's what they do.

53:26 Speaker 3: They're a defense of the homeland.

53:28 Speaker 2: And that's another way that Errow kind of got into

53:31 Speaker 2: the counter UAP or UAS mission.

53:36 Speaker 3: After the Langley incident.

53:37 Speaker 2: You're actually asked during the incident by the Joint Staff

53:41 Speaker 2: J three if we could bring some of our sensors

53:44 Speaker 2: and our scientists and help them recover and make tracks

53:49 Speaker 2: so the law Enforcement pass Force could narrow down their

53:53 Speaker 2: search area where they thought these uas is being launched from.

53:58 Speaker 2: You know, what was the past and what were the

54:01 Speaker 2: uas is interested in surveilling.

54:03 Speaker 3: So we had partnered.

54:05 Speaker 2: With MIT that were the British that helped invent radar

54:09 Speaker 2: and World War two, and we were helping reconstruct, you know,

54:13 Speaker 2: the forensic radar tracks, trying to make us make sense

54:17 Speaker 2: of what happened down in Langley a couple of years ago,

54:22 Speaker 2: and Aero developed and expertise. You know, we had our

54:28 Speaker 2: Grimlin systems that we would put out. We do long

54:31 Speaker 2: term surveillance of a fairly large area and of course

54:36 Speaker 2: we're looking for UAPs, but we would detect uass So

54:41 Speaker 2: what we want to do is have the ability to

54:43 Speaker 2: pass that track to that local commander responsible for the

54:47 Speaker 2: sense of the military installation, saying we've detected the uas

54:51 Speaker 2: in real time and passing the information so they could

54:55 Speaker 2: deal with it.

54:55 Speaker 3: That's not really our mission.

54:57 Speaker 2: In the same time, if they were to tech at

55:00 Speaker 2: UAP they're looking for uas as when they find a craft,

55:05 Speaker 2: they don't understand they know it's much larger in uas,

55:08 Speaker 2: they passed that.

55:09 Speaker 3: Todds, I am.

55:13 Speaker 1: So jumping back in tim I I I was listening

55:20 Speaker 1: to your interview and right at the end with Stephen

55:25 Speaker 1: Green the Street, you started talking about black triangles and

55:31 Speaker 1: the possibility that these so because Arrow, I mean Arrow

55:36 Speaker 1: did find some interesting things and you made some interesting

55:40 Speaker 1: comments about these triangles, and and let's be fair, Uh,

55:45 Speaker 1: these black triangles have been seen for a long time,

55:50 Speaker 1: a long long time by people. They've been reported the

55:53 Speaker 1: famous nineteen ninety seven Phoenix lights incident. Uh, that was

55:58 Speaker 1: a big you know, black triangle, if you will. There's

56:01 Speaker 1: also been a lot of of of reports of even

56:07 Speaker 1: up to this day, guys like Dylan Borland Uh just

56:11 Speaker 1: sat in front of Congress uh and testified to the

56:14 Speaker 1: fact that he and uh, you know, I'm just using

56:18 Speaker 1: that as an example. Many other people have seen these triangles.

56:23 Speaker 1: What what can you elaborate on on what you were

56:28 Speaker 1: saying with Steven in that interview and why the black

56:30 Speaker 1: triangles stand out you specifically.

56:34 Speaker 2: Yeah, the delta wing or the triangle or shape wing

56:37 Speaker 2: aircraft is the proven design. So he had asked me about,

56:43 Speaker 2: you know what, what what bothered you?

56:45 Speaker 3: You know what what we concerned about?

56:47 Speaker 2: And I had mentioned that the black triangles because we

56:50 Speaker 2: know it's a proven engineering design. It helps you know,

56:55 Speaker 2: the fly and we'll move from triangles to flying wings.

56:59 Speaker 2: You know, it actually has some inherent stealth characteristics.

57:04 Speaker 3: It minimizes to ratear cross section.

57:08 Speaker 2: I know that the first time I ever saw an

57:12 Speaker 2: F one seventeen uh Yuma, you know, before I knew

57:15 Speaker 2: what the hell they were, it looked like a flying

57:18 Speaker 2: black triangle from the angle the aspect I had on

57:20 Speaker 2: the ground. So when we detect force protection and security

57:26 Speaker 2: personnel at very sensitive site, that's a national security issue

57:32 Speaker 2: for me because we know that we have produced aircraft

57:38 Speaker 2: in systems that look like black triangles.

57:41 Speaker 3: It works, and.

57:42 Speaker 2: Our adversaries, you know, probably have as well. So when

57:46 Speaker 2: we have UAP incidents and we get credible reporting that

57:53 Speaker 2: it's a trianglar shaped aircraft, that's a.

57:55 Speaker 3: Huge concern to us. The other thing I had.

57:59 Speaker 2: Mentioned about is the corona or the plasma type discharge

58:06 Speaker 2: from a airborne system. We thought maybe that could be

58:11 Speaker 2: a form of stealth, using some kind to say a

58:15 Speaker 2: force field, to provide that minimize or of that small

58:20 Speaker 2: radar cross section, because that was another thing in the

58:25 Speaker 2: unexplained the true UAP cases, which as and I agree

58:30 Speaker 2: with you, it's about two percent of our cases. It's

58:33 Speaker 2: very very small, but we can confirm they're there, we

58:37 Speaker 2: can measure their speed and blossopy. We don't know what

58:40 Speaker 2: they are and we're trying to do much better to

58:43 Speaker 2: be able to detect and track these things. But those

58:47 Speaker 2: are the two things, the two shapes that I was

58:49 Speaker 2: concerned about, the triangular shape objects and then the fiery

58:55 Speaker 2: shares speeds.

58:59 Speaker 3: As relate to us by the witnesses.

59:01 Speaker 2: And one of the things I do want to say

59:03 Speaker 2: about the witnesses, we had some you know, early on

59:08 Speaker 2: during the historical report, people are coming to us and

59:11 Speaker 2: we wanted them to report on any reverse engineering, you know,

59:17 Speaker 2: or alien spacecraft exploitation programs. And we had some pregnary contractors,

59:24 Speaker 2: some dood personnel and talked about the amazing things that

59:28 Speaker 2: they saw and we listened to their claims.

59:32 Speaker 3: Then we thanked them for.

59:33 Speaker 2: The patriotism, remind them of the lifelong obligation under the

59:37 Speaker 2: non disclosure agreements they signed, and set them on their way,

59:41 Speaker 2: and then we would have to start the investigation what

59:44 Speaker 2: is this? And their descriptions were very, very accurate for

59:49 Speaker 2: the most part. We would actually get the videos, so

59:54 Speaker 2: we get the reports from what was being tested to

59:56 Speaker 2: develop and we saw the videos. Now we can understand

1:00:01 Speaker 2: the description. And there was one it was a spacecraft.

1:00:08 Speaker 2: It was on a launch platform that was described as

1:00:11 Speaker 2: an alien spaceship by a contractor. A support contractor was

1:00:16 Speaker 2: lawfully present but not part of that test, so it

1:00:20 Speaker 2: wasn't read into the program. But we looked at that

1:00:24 Speaker 2: and you grew up, you know, looking at fine By,

1:00:28 Speaker 2: you know sign you know science fiction movies, and you

1:00:32 Speaker 2: saw this craft, you.

1:00:35 Speaker 3: Would think it was an alien system. I think with Stephen,

1:00:39 Speaker 3: I think it was getting pretty late and I said.

1:00:42 Speaker 2: It looked like an alien you know, desh ship or something.

1:00:46 Speaker 3: But you look at it and you can understand.

1:00:49 Speaker 2: And we wanted that image in the sap CAP version

1:00:54 Speaker 2: of the historical report. So we had a version of

1:00:58 Speaker 2: that report which was about eighty five percent of it

1:01:02 Speaker 2: which was public releaseable. Then there was a top secret

1:01:06 Speaker 2: sci version of that report, and then primarily for the

1:01:10 Speaker 2: Gag of eight, there was a.

1:01:11 Speaker 3: Sap CAP version of that report that got into some

1:01:16 Speaker 3: of these.

1:01:18 Speaker 2: Systems that we really really wanted to protect where people

1:01:23 Speaker 2: had assessed that they were part of some type of.

1:01:29 Speaker 3: You know, alien exploitation program that the government was running.

1:01:34 Speaker 2: Okay, we had about forty claims forty five claims that

1:01:38 Speaker 2: we had to research And another thing that was unique

1:01:43 Speaker 2: about the work we did when we would have an

1:01:46 Speaker 2: incident and it was actually, you know, we we couldn't

1:01:50 Speaker 2: cross reference it was something known a known air aircraft

1:01:55 Speaker 2: or some type of events such as exactly, we couldn't

1:02:01 Speaker 2: correlate it with that. Then we would have to do

1:02:04 Speaker 2: Blue Force deconfliction. Then we would have to go out

1:02:08 Speaker 2: into the R and D and they had the Research

1:02:11 Speaker 2: and Development of Science and Technology world and say were

1:02:15 Speaker 2: you all flying something or demonstrate in the system in

1:02:19 Speaker 2: this area at that time? And you had to be

1:02:22 Speaker 2: very very precise as you went back into that community

1:02:27 Speaker 2: to ask them because they're not going to They're really

1:02:30 Speaker 2: not going to give you anything, but you have to

1:02:32 Speaker 2: be very descriptive and give them very precise days and

1:02:36 Speaker 2: times places to get anything out of them, to kind

1:02:39 Speaker 2: of understand what they were doing because they wanted to

1:02:42 Speaker 2: compartmentalize and minimize exposure of these systems so they couldn't

1:02:47 Speaker 2: be compromised. And we understood that, but what we need

1:02:51 Speaker 2: to we needed to confirm that it wasn't one of

1:02:55 Speaker 2: our blue systems that was detected.

1:02:57 Speaker 3: It was truly a UAP.

1:03:00 Speaker 1: This brings me to one of my biggest points to uh.

1:03:02 Speaker 1: Tim And and you know, I again, I have so

1:03:06 Speaker 1: much respect for you. You are a true patriot and

1:03:11 Speaker 1: I sincerely, sincerely say that. But I've also worked with

1:03:17 Speaker 1: other true patriots and I The Wall Street Journal published

1:03:23 Speaker 1: an article and they claimed that the the Malmstrom uh

1:03:29 Speaker 1: nuclear shutdowns uh were part of a directed e m P.

1:03:34 Speaker 1: And I'm gonna go, I'll get this all out so

1:03:36 Speaker 1: you can kind of we can just have a general

1:03:38 Speaker 1: discussion about this because it ties into it, you know,

1:03:44 Speaker 1: so the Malmstrom case being an e MP training of

1:03:49 Speaker 1: some sort, and then you know, uh, but but Malmstrom

1:03:54 Speaker 1: is not the only uh nuclear base that you know

1:03:58 Speaker 1: dealt with these things?

1:03:59 Speaker 3: Uh?

1:04:00 Speaker 1: Why not?

1:04:01 Speaker 4: Uh?

1:04:01 Speaker 1: And they what they're saying is this, the fiery spheres

1:04:05 Speaker 1: are are are a very common thing, from Mario Woods

1:04:09 Speaker 1: at Ellsworth to Lowering Air Force Base in Maine to

1:04:14 Speaker 1: Langley to Malmstrom mine not Vandenberg nuclear witnesses have come forward.

1:04:22 Speaker 1: And and when those guys come forward, and I know

1:04:26 Speaker 1: some of them have testified to Arrow because they've been

1:04:28 Speaker 1: open about it. We don't have to go into any names,

1:04:31 Speaker 1: we don't have to go into any specifics. But these

1:04:34 Speaker 1: guys I find to be at least of the most

1:04:38 Speaker 1: concerning credible people. So when looking at that, how did

1:04:46 Speaker 1: how did the Wall Street Journal come to that conclusion?

1:04:49 Speaker 1: And people think that doctor Kirkpatrick was was giving information

1:04:54 Speaker 1: to them about that, So I just want to kind

1:04:56 Speaker 1: of clear that up because there's very conflicting reports.

1:05:00 Speaker 2: This now that was the fiery orbs was probably one

1:05:05 Speaker 2: of the most intriguing, most concerning cases we had because

1:05:09 Speaker 2: there seemed to be consistency and the visual, you know,

1:05:15 Speaker 2: descriptions from various very credible security personnel at these nuclear

1:05:26 Speaker 2: a lot of more nuclear weapon sites, not only here

1:05:30 Speaker 2: but overseas as well, and their descriptions of what they

1:05:34 Speaker 2: observed was very consistent. So I can see how the

1:05:40 Speaker 2: Wall Street Journal would have a story on it because

1:05:43 Speaker 2: they probably introduced some of the same witnesses we did.

1:05:46 Speaker 2: And we have actually partnered with, you know, organizations in

1:05:52 Speaker 2: the Apartment of Defense and Apartment of Energy to help

1:05:55 Speaker 2: improve the technology to be able to detect and you know,

1:06:01 Speaker 2: actually track these objects. In one case, at a very

1:06:06 Speaker 2: very sensitive location, there was a ground security force that

1:06:11 Speaker 2: actually followed one of these fiery orbs for you know,

1:06:16 Speaker 2: I would say fifteen miles and the ORBS was hovering,

1:06:21 Speaker 2: was moving slowly, a small car sized object in the air,

1:06:28 Speaker 2: hovering above a road, and when a truck departed main

1:06:34 Speaker 2: side was coming out on that range road, the system

1:06:39 Speaker 2: actually got off the road and hovered and turned off

1:06:44 Speaker 2: its NAB lights.

1:06:45 Speaker 3: There were red lights on the back of it that

1:06:47 Speaker 3: the security personnel could see.

1:06:51 Speaker 2: Not sure what it is, but the fact that it

1:06:54 Speaker 2: was following roads it attempted to evade detection, okay, and

1:07:02 Speaker 2: then after the threat, after the truck had passed, it

1:07:05 Speaker 2: got back on its merry way and headed back toward

1:07:09 Speaker 2: the main test area.

1:07:10 Speaker 3: At this location, to me, it tells me that there

1:07:14 Speaker 3: was a human in the loop.

1:07:17 Speaker 2: The concern was the distance from public access into the range,

1:07:23 Speaker 2: So how was it being control and what was the

1:07:27 Speaker 2: nature of that you know, that aroar or that that

1:07:33 Speaker 2: discharge around the object.

1:07:36 Speaker 1: So you guys are saying that you don't know, We

1:07:40 Speaker 1: don't know.

1:07:41 Speaker 3: And we found that to be very very alarming.

1:07:44 Speaker 2: And the people who observed it and tracked it, and

1:07:47 Speaker 2: then in one case there were two departments that had

1:07:52 Speaker 2: detected it actually went from the range one range onto

1:07:57 Speaker 2: another range and was detected by two or two independent organizations,

1:08:02 Speaker 2: so it tells us something's there.

1:08:05 Speaker 3: I'm not sure what it is.

1:08:07 Speaker 2: I think it's a an adversary capability or system, but

1:08:13 Speaker 2: there's not.

1:08:14 Speaker 1: You're not ruling out say something else, because it's still on.

1:08:18 Speaker 3: We don't know what it is, and now it'd be

1:08:20 Speaker 3: foolish to rule anything out. We need to understand it.

1:08:23 Speaker 3: We need to be able to detect it, Bill Tracks

1:08:25 Speaker 3: and the mediate it to deal with it.

1:08:28 Speaker 1: Okay, have you have you heard this other narrative that's

1:08:31 Speaker 1: going around in the Washington Street Washington Street Jesus Wall

1:08:38 Speaker 1: Street Journal tried to say that there is a hazing

1:08:43 Speaker 1: ritual that has been going on in special access programs.

1:08:48 Speaker 1: You know, hazing recruits UH to these special access programs

1:08:52 Speaker 1: telling them there are UFOs. But then you know, in

1:08:56 Speaker 1: my these in my experience with hazing, you the hazer

1:09:00 Speaker 1: becomes the hazy, becomes the hazer and they get let

1:09:04 Speaker 1: in on the joke. Have you heard these claims and

1:09:09 Speaker 1: did you guys hear anything similar.

1:09:11 Speaker 2: We actually came across the program, we investigated it, We

1:09:17 Speaker 2: passed it back to the d O, d I G

1:09:20 Speaker 2: and the service IG to actually investigate it, and we

1:09:24 Speaker 2: actually thought that that could be the origins of a

1:09:30 Speaker 2: lot of these UFO stories where we had the time.

1:09:36 Speaker 2: It was an Air Force Special Access Management Office, the

1:09:38 Speaker 2: SAP GO office that had come up with a.

1:09:44 Speaker 3: False SAP.

1:09:46 Speaker 2: Originally they were going to use it for training purposes,

1:09:50 Speaker 2: so they didn't want to use a real SAP, so

1:09:54 Speaker 2: they came up with a fake SAP program.

1:09:57 Speaker 3: I actually saw it. It was beautiful, beautiful graphics.

1:10:02 Speaker 2: It didn't say anything about a UFO or UAP in it,

1:10:05 Speaker 2: but you had the image was a classic nineteen fifty

1:10:10 Speaker 2: flying saucer hovering in a lab being surrounded by technicians

1:10:15 Speaker 2: and white lab coats, and it was an anti gravity

1:10:19 Speaker 2: motor or device, and that was the SAP.

1:10:25 Speaker 3: It was used. It was created as a training program.

1:10:31 Speaker 3: It went wild.

1:10:33 Speaker 2: It was probably in existence for over twenty twenty five years,

1:10:39 Speaker 2: where you know, personnel assigned to the base Special Access

1:10:45 Speaker 2: Program Management Office were read into were aware of this

1:10:49 Speaker 2: program without knowing that it wasn't a real program. So

1:10:55 Speaker 2: you probably had you know, thousand, possibly tens of thousands

1:11:02 Speaker 2: of military personnel who were exposed to a false SAP

1:11:09 Speaker 2: dealing with this anti gravity motor that came from you know,

1:11:18 Speaker 2: another world, you know, exraterrestrial exploitation that we possessed, and

1:11:26 Speaker 2: some people thought that that could be the basis for

1:11:31 Speaker 2: all these allegations that the US government has had these

1:11:35 Speaker 2: unacknowledged SATs and caps dealing with recovery and exploitation of

1:11:42 Speaker 2: alien technologies or.

1:11:44 Speaker 3: Non human technologies. So I mean, but that we actually.

1:11:51 Speaker 2: Found that the program had morphed a bit, had got

1:11:55 Speaker 2: out to a different combatant command, had gone off into

1:11:59 Speaker 2: a different servous, so that we were aware of a

1:12:06 Speaker 2: false SAT program that was in existence for twenty years.

1:12:13 Speaker 2: We never really we knew it got back into the

1:12:15 Speaker 2: nineteen eighties.

1:12:17 Speaker 1: You don't find that. A. That's ridiculous to try to

1:12:20 Speaker 1: say that that would explain every UFO sighting, But B

1:12:25 Speaker 1: that would also mean that anyone who was hazed, wouldn't

1:12:29 Speaker 1: they have a pretty good wouldn't they have a pretty

1:12:33 Speaker 1: good lawsuit against the the.

1:12:36 Speaker 3: Progress It was it was a joke and then they

1:12:38 Speaker 3: signed an NDA.

1:12:40 Speaker 2: So these are service members that were managing a SAP

1:12:44 Speaker 2: office and they would have in their portfolio, they could

1:12:48 Speaker 2: have hundreds of different SAPs that were in existence that

1:12:53 Speaker 2: are operational at that base from facility, and they would

1:12:56 Speaker 2: just read people in and read people out. They didn't

1:13:00 Speaker 2: actually participate in those programs. They were just administering the

1:13:05 Speaker 2: clearances then and then writing people off after they you know,

1:13:09 Speaker 2: had no longer had a need to have access to

1:13:11 Speaker 2: that program.

1:13:13 Speaker 1: I guess we'll we'll have to probably agree to disagree

1:13:16 Speaker 1: on this because I find that to be I find

1:13:20 Speaker 1: that to be really unethical to not let because what

1:13:25 Speaker 1: if what if you got what if you got told

1:13:28 Speaker 1: that there was UFOs and you see these amazing graphics

1:13:31 Speaker 1: and then you live your life and no one no

1:13:34 Speaker 1: one tells you, Like, isn't the best part of the

1:13:36 Speaker 1: joke when they find out it's a joke. And now

1:13:38 Speaker 1: we have one hundred thousand of these guys running around

1:13:41 Speaker 1: thinking there's aliens out there and at any day the

1:13:44 Speaker 1: world would you know, erupt into an intergalactic star wars

1:13:48 Speaker 1: that would cause some psychological issues. Don't you take it.

1:13:52 Speaker 2: Well that that was the concern of some cabinet officials.

1:13:55 Speaker 2: They were how extensive, you know, was this hazing? How

1:14:00 Speaker 2: many people were exposed to it? And it could be

1:14:04 Speaker 2: could that be the basis for these claims? Your reaction

1:14:10 Speaker 2: to discovering that this program existed was the same as

1:14:14 Speaker 2: some you know Senny confirmed Cabinet officials when they were

1:14:17 Speaker 2: briefed on the programs, they were actually concerned and angry

1:14:22 Speaker 2: about it. And we had another we actually had another

1:14:28 Speaker 2: I never could get the photos, but we had allegations that.

1:14:33 Speaker 3: They're at one of the test sites.

1:14:35 Speaker 2: They actually had a room, they had a gurney and

1:14:37 Speaker 2: they had like a big rubber arm, like a you know,

1:14:41 Speaker 2: a reptilian hand sticking out from underneath the white sheet

1:14:46 Speaker 2: on a gurney. And there was a group of military

1:14:50 Speaker 2: personnel going by and they haven't just a glance in

1:14:54 Speaker 2: and see this, and then the staff rapidly went up

1:14:58 Speaker 2: and shut the door and cut, you know, pull the

1:15:00 Speaker 2: sheep back over the arm. And we heard in one

1:15:04 Speaker 2: incident there was a young officer that was so shooken

1:15:10 Speaker 2: up so in that of experience that she resigned from

1:15:16 Speaker 2: the program.

1:15:18 Speaker 3: That was a claim.

1:15:20 Speaker 2: We also had a claim of a retired Air Force

1:15:23 Speaker 2: flag officer that worked at one of the national test

1:15:26 Speaker 2: sites where he was asked to deliver doctored photographs at

1:15:33 Speaker 2: the Nevada test site what a lot of the public

1:15:35 Speaker 2: refers to as Area fifty one's of traditional UFOs flying

1:15:41 Speaker 2: over the test site and those photos, those images were

1:15:46 Speaker 2: delivered to a bar to the east of the base.

1:15:51 Speaker 2: There where a lot of the UFO observers and you know,

1:15:56 Speaker 2: the people interested in this topic would go out to

1:15:59 Speaker 2: eat and and you know discuss their experiences as they

1:16:03 Speaker 2: observed the Nevada test site out there. So we've we've

1:16:08 Speaker 2: got you know, witnesses that claim programs like that occurred.

1:16:13 Speaker 2: We know that the Soviet Union in the Cold War

1:16:17 Speaker 2: actually came up with UFO stories to try to undermine

1:16:23 Speaker 2: Americans' confidence in their government's ability to protect them and

1:16:29 Speaker 2: tell them the truth about aliens. There's been a lot

1:16:32 Speaker 2: of disinformation when it came to UAP UFO, and that's

1:16:38 Speaker 2: why I thought it was so brilliant to actually establish

1:16:43 Speaker 2: an arrow office for the first time. He had an

1:16:46 Speaker 2: organization with the horsepower working for the right people, with

1:16:51 Speaker 2: a budget and the you know, the authority to work

1:16:55 Speaker 2: across the US government that you know, to investigate these

1:16:59 Speaker 2: claims and try to understand what's going on. And I

1:17:03 Speaker 2: know there's a lot of frustration with the public that

1:17:06 Speaker 2: you know, we didn't show them the Amian bodies or

1:17:09 Speaker 2: the you know, the UFO crash site despite people who

1:17:12 Speaker 2: have sworn under oath in Congress that you know they

1:17:16 Speaker 2: have observed you know, you know, alien spaceships or non

1:17:22 Speaker 2: earth you know, non human spaceships, and they found non

1:17:26 Speaker 2: human remains.

1:17:30 Speaker 3: We looked for that.

1:17:31 Speaker 2: We investigated virtually every credible claim we had. I know

1:17:38 Speaker 2: that our investigators hosted congressional delegations wanting to go out

1:17:44 Speaker 2: to Dayton, you know, going to write Patterson to personally

1:17:50 Speaker 2: investigate the claims that there was some type of UFO

1:17:54 Speaker 2: power source that was hidden underground at.

1:17:58 Speaker 3: The base there. We know that we've hosted.

1:18:04 Speaker 2: Investigators that wanted to go out to other ranges to

1:18:08 Speaker 2: be able to investigate claims that were made under oath

1:18:11 Speaker 2: the Congress. And we were part of that, and we

1:18:14 Speaker 2: had authority to go anywhere to look. And I will

1:18:20 Speaker 2: tell you during my tenure there, we never had anybody

1:18:24 Speaker 2: attempt to block access to information or locations or materials.

1:18:30 Speaker 3: Why you know, I worked at Arrow. That never happened.

1:18:34 Speaker 1: So you're saying that no one and is it conceivable?

1:18:39 Speaker 2: Is it?

1:18:39 Speaker 3: Is it? At least community.

1:18:43 Speaker 1: A lot of people think you were fired from Narrow.

1:18:46 Speaker 1: That doesn't seem to be the actual case.

1:18:49 Speaker 3: I wasn't fired from marrow.

1:18:51 Speaker 1: Right, And I wanted to clear correct. I know, I know,

1:18:56 Speaker 1: but people online said that you were fired. They put

1:19:00 Speaker 1: these graphics up. But you were also given one of

1:19:03 Speaker 1: the highest service honors and like a huge, like nice commendation,

1:19:12 Speaker 1: and it seems like it was just your time for

1:19:16 Speaker 1: retirement and you and the d O D for lack

1:19:19 Speaker 1: of a better term, split up. Now, can you clear

1:19:23 Speaker 1: that up? Because people think people like to say that

1:19:25 Speaker 1: you got fired.

1:19:26 Speaker 3: I want to make sure no, none at all.

1:19:30 Speaker 2: Errol worked with the under Secretary for Intelligence Security and

1:19:36 Speaker 2: as a senior executive, we actually had to come up

1:19:42 Speaker 2: with the criteria on how we would rack and stack,

1:19:46 Speaker 2: how we would prioritize a new intelligence officer assigned to

1:19:51 Speaker 2: the department of a sense. So we came up with

1:19:54 Speaker 2: the criteria on how if we had to executed a

1:20:01 Speaker 2: reduction in force, who we would fire first. So I

1:20:06 Speaker 2: was part of the working group that came up with

1:20:10 Speaker 2: the It was almost a matrix on how we would

1:20:15 Speaker 2: rack and stack, how we would fire our officers who

1:20:21 Speaker 2: were still on probation. So we would spend a lot

1:20:25 Speaker 2: of time assessing recruiting training. They had a two year

1:20:28 Speaker 2: probationary period. And I just thought that by doing that,

1:20:33 Speaker 2: by you know, firing these junior officers that never really

1:20:38 Speaker 2: had an opportunity to work in the community, that we

1:20:41 Speaker 2: were consuming our feed stock. I had forty five years

1:20:46 Speaker 2: as military and as a civil servant, and I had

1:20:50 Speaker 2: already told the D and I that I was going

1:20:55 Speaker 2: to retire when my tour was up, and my tour

1:20:58 Speaker 2: era was going to be up in October of this year.

1:21:01 Speaker 2: So when they came out with a deferred resonation program,

1:21:05 Speaker 2: we did not know what the number was if you

1:21:08 Speaker 2: were looking for an eight percent or ten percent reduction

1:21:12 Speaker 2: in force. So I thought I had a full career

1:21:17 Speaker 2: and I was willing to give up my feat so

1:21:21 Speaker 2: a new officer that we had recruited and brought into

1:21:24 Speaker 2: the intelligence community could serve.

1:21:28 Speaker 3: So that's what I did.

1:21:32 Speaker 2: And I had talked to John, and I didn't want

1:21:34 Speaker 2: to leave him high and dry, but we had actually

1:21:37 Speaker 2: gone out and solicited. We put out an advertisement, and

1:21:42 Speaker 2: we were actually interviewing people as the new deputy. I

1:21:46 Speaker 2: was actually recruiting my replacement the same way I recruited

1:21:50 Speaker 2: you know, John to bring him in as the director.

1:21:52 Speaker 2: We were actually you know, try and ensure we had continuity, and.

1:21:56 Speaker 3: That was the plan.

1:21:57 Speaker 2: But the delay that we had in getting the new

1:22:02 Speaker 2: administration's political officers confirmed through the Senate flowed things down

1:22:09 Speaker 2: to get you know, to have people come in and

1:22:11 Speaker 2: approve and make the appointments as a deputy and they understand.

1:22:16 Speaker 2: The officer that we had recruited replaced me got frustrated

1:22:20 Speaker 2: and he took the DRP and he resigned. So I

1:22:24 Speaker 2: was actually I took the resonation program and left Arrow

1:22:29 Speaker 2: and April, so I had already left Arrow and then

1:22:34 Speaker 2: later on in July. One of the programs that we

1:22:39 Speaker 2: have when you're on the DRP all.

1:22:42 Speaker 3: The rules that you have to follow.

1:22:44 Speaker 2: As a title fifty Intel officers, You've got to report

1:22:49 Speaker 2: foreign contacts. We've got to report our financial activities and

1:22:54 Speaker 2: trains over a certain amount of money.

1:22:56 Speaker 3: You have to report if you have.

1:23:02 Speaker 2: You're publishing, you have to go through a published review

1:23:06 Speaker 2: process to make sure that you're not revealing any sensitive.

1:23:10 Speaker 3: A classified information.

1:23:11 Speaker 2: And if you have contacts with the media, you have

1:23:14 Speaker 2: to go up and you've got to ask permission to

1:23:16 Speaker 2: do so. But to do those outsize activities, you have

1:23:22 Speaker 2: to be in the system to get on and into

1:23:24 Speaker 2: the database and say, hey, I've got this reporter that

1:23:29 Speaker 2: wants to talk to me about this subject to get

1:23:31 Speaker 2: permission to do so, you're outside of the system to

1:23:34 Speaker 2: do that. That was one of the limitations about this DRP.

1:23:38 Speaker 2: It's a very very weird thing because you're read out

1:23:42 Speaker 2: of the programs. You're basically on terminal leave until thirty September.

1:23:47 Speaker 2: When you were you know you would you would be

1:23:49 Speaker 2: over and then you retire in one October. It's kind

1:23:52 Speaker 2: of the plan. So I had made some interviews and

1:23:57 Speaker 2: I thought I had followed the procedure. There was only

1:23:59 Speaker 2: one one time where I was told not to proceed

1:24:04 Speaker 2: in the interview with somebody, but I said something that

1:24:08 Speaker 2: irritated somebody at the DNI, and then I got called

1:24:11 Speaker 2: into the DNI. I had the counter intelligence and the

1:24:14 Speaker 2: HR people pulled me in. Why I'm on leave. I

1:24:17 Speaker 2: had already checked out, and I got a very nice

1:24:22 Speaker 2: worded letter from the Director of National Intelligence tell me

1:24:25 Speaker 2: that it was no longer in the interest of the

1:24:28 Speaker 2: government for me to be employed with the Office of

1:24:31 Speaker 2: the Director of National Intelligence.

1:24:33 Speaker 3: And I was terminated and then I was put on

1:24:36 Speaker 3: the retired roles.

1:24:38 Speaker 1: So it's safe to say it was like an amicable

1:24:43 Speaker 1: split up.

1:24:45 Speaker 2: They just decided that they no longer required my services

1:24:50 Speaker 2: as a senior National Intelligence Service officer and they retired me.

1:24:54 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, yeah, so pretty amicable because then you go

1:24:58 Speaker 1: on and you're also given, uh, what was the the

1:25:04 Speaker 1: medal you were given?

1:25:05 Speaker 3: Well, I actually got to this year. I got one.

1:25:10 Speaker 2: It was kind of like a civilian Achievement or Meritorious

1:25:16 Speaker 2: Service medal. Henry Clinton got one. I got one, and

1:25:21 Speaker 2: then I got the Secretary Defense Exceptional Service Medal. I

1:25:31 Speaker 2: think I got two of them. One was civilian service

1:25:34 Speaker 2: and one was as a d o D. I got

1:25:36 Speaker 2: the highest ranking award they could give me.

1:25:39 Speaker 3: So yeah, I got that. So yeah.

1:25:43 Speaker 2: But it was the Department one of the Department Offense

1:25:47 Speaker 2: that terminated me. I didn't work for the Department Offense.

1:25:51 Speaker 2: I was on a joint duty assignment to the Apartment Offense.

1:25:56 Speaker 2: I was an O d N I employed at the

1:26:00 Speaker 2: time when the Director of National and Talent and gave

1:26:04 Speaker 2: me the letter saying that my continued service was no

1:26:08 Speaker 2: longer required.

1:26:10 Speaker 1: So if you could change. We have two more questions

1:26:15 Speaker 1: and we'll wrap up on this on this part one,

1:26:17 Speaker 1: we'll call it if you could change one thing about

1:26:21 Speaker 1: how the Pentagon handles this topic specifically, what would that be?

1:26:29 Speaker 2: I think the way John and the last time we

1:26:32 Speaker 2: were up on the hill, and I believe that was

1:26:34 Speaker 2: around March, we came out of the skiff and then

1:26:37 Speaker 2: and what what what John is the director decided to do,

1:26:41 Speaker 2: is just to go public and actually admit that there

1:26:45 Speaker 2: were actual UAP cases that we didn't understand. Another thing

1:26:51 Speaker 2: I think I would have done much earlier is solicit

1:26:57 Speaker 2: or our attempt to come up with a crowd sourcing

1:27:01 Speaker 2: UH reporting of UAP and incidents.

1:27:05 Speaker 3: These states have state fusion.

1:27:07 Speaker 2: Centers to kind of control state level response to incidents.

1:27:16 Speaker 2: We thought state, local, tribal. They're normally the first responders

1:27:21 Speaker 2: if they hear or see something, you know, how can

1:27:24 Speaker 2: we how can we operationalize that and get that reporting

1:27:29 Speaker 2: back to ERROW as fast as possible so AERO could respond.

1:27:33 Speaker 2: We had people on standby that could deploy the same

1:27:38 Speaker 2: day to try to understand an incident, to gather evidence

1:27:43 Speaker 2: and maybe capture the phenomenon near real time. I would

1:27:47 Speaker 2: have solicited the support of the American public sooner we've

1:27:52 Speaker 2: been working on a public reporting mechanism, and with the

1:27:57 Speaker 2: change and the trend of amid frustration and the transitions,

1:28:02 Speaker 2: we had to have some forms approved by GSA, you know,

1:28:08 Speaker 2: as part of how they would report to the government.

1:28:11 Speaker 2: I would have loved to have that in place and

1:28:15 Speaker 2: using some of the large data, some of the machine.

1:28:20 Speaker 3: Learning, the algorithms we developed to try to.

1:28:26 Speaker 2: Speed the detection the building attracts and the operational response

1:28:31 Speaker 2: to UAP incidents. And we were working very very hard

1:28:37 Speaker 2: to get that capability in place in partnership with an

1:28:41 Speaker 2: all the government reports, you know.

1:28:44 Speaker 3: Response.

1:28:45 Speaker 2: We found that Department of Homeland Security, especially CBP along

1:28:51 Speaker 2: our country's borders, they have an amazing network of sensors

1:28:56 Speaker 2: where they were willing to share us, share the feeds.

1:29:01 Speaker 2: As we looked at the administration's desire to enhance air

1:29:07 Speaker 2: defense and the cotton United States, you know about the

1:29:10 Speaker 2: Golden Dome initiative, Well there's data there.

1:29:14 Speaker 3: Okay.

1:29:15 Speaker 2: If I know they're looking at threats, they're looking at

1:29:18 Speaker 2: cruise missiles, are looking at ballistic missiles uass. But if

1:29:22 Speaker 2: we invest in that sensor technology, we're going to pick

1:29:25 Speaker 2: up things that may not be threats, but it's information,

1:29:30 Speaker 2: it's anomalies that aero needs to investigate so we can

1:29:33 Speaker 2: have an understanding. There was a little bit of frustration

1:29:37 Speaker 2: because we had a bias in our collection because we

1:29:41 Speaker 2: tended to put censors out in defenses around things that

1:29:46 Speaker 2: we wanted to protect.

1:29:48 Speaker 1: That include nuclear sites.

1:29:50 Speaker 3: Absolutely included lucra sites.

1:29:52 Speaker 2: But how do you know if we have a higher

1:29:58 Speaker 2: number of incidents around nuclear when you don't know what's

1:30:01 Speaker 2: going on over the cornfields of Nebraska. So one of

1:30:05 Speaker 2: the things that we are actually researching was investing in

1:30:09 Speaker 2: a series of unattended sensors. We were thinking of working

1:30:14 Speaker 2: with Department as Interior and the Bureau of Land Management

1:30:18 Speaker 2: where they have a series of towers. They're primarily looking

1:30:22 Speaker 2: for fire detection and disasters at the national parks. But

1:30:26 Speaker 2: if we could put out sensors staring up at the stars,

1:30:30 Speaker 2: you have the networked you know, maybe we can detect

1:30:34 Speaker 2: anomalies before the public sees them and start having a

1:30:37 Speaker 2: more comprehensive understanding of what's going on because we don't

1:30:42 Speaker 2: and I talk a lot about what's going on in

1:30:45 Speaker 2: the air domain. That's where we had a lot of

1:30:48 Speaker 2: sensor capability and understanding on in tools to be able

1:30:53 Speaker 2: to exploit what's going on in the EO and IR.

1:31:01 Speaker 3: Oh, but we were working in space.

1:31:03 Speaker 2: We actually had a definition of what a UAP incident

1:31:06 Speaker 2: was in space, and we were actually work gaming with

1:31:09 Speaker 2: space Com and the Space Force, you know, trying to say,

1:31:15 Speaker 2: how do we get UAP incidents that they detect in

1:31:19 Speaker 2: space and at mission speed past those tracks to ERROW

1:31:24 Speaker 2: so ERROW can apply some machine learning from AI, so

1:31:28 Speaker 2: maybe we can detect things as they approach our solar system,

1:31:31 Speaker 2: our planet and maybe re entry into the atmosphere. You know,

1:31:36 Speaker 2: we wanted to kind of tie it together and do

1:31:39 Speaker 2: it at operationally you know speed. It was frustrated to

1:31:45 Speaker 2: be reactive or to go back and have to investigate

1:31:49 Speaker 2: a USP case from twenty years ago when there's no data.

1:31:54 Speaker 2: Another domain where frankly we didn't have a lot of

1:31:58 Speaker 2: success were just starting was in the maritime environment. So

1:32:02 Speaker 2: there were incidents that's in the maritime environment, but the

1:32:07 Speaker 2: community is even more compartmentalized than they are in space,

1:32:12 Speaker 2: and their primary concern was the sound of metal moving

1:32:16 Speaker 2: through water.

1:32:18 Speaker 3: That's what they were.

1:32:18 Speaker 2: Focused on, and if it didn't really correspond, it wasn't

1:32:24 Speaker 2: part of that threat.

1:32:25 Speaker 3: They didn't care.

1:32:26 Speaker 2: Well, we care, and we partnered a couple of times

1:32:32 Speaker 2: with the Maritime Committee and help them. We actually had

1:32:36 Speaker 2: worked with some cases with them, but we really didn't

1:32:40 Speaker 2: have a good foothold there. We were most our success

1:32:43 Speaker 2: tended to be in the air domain. We were starting

1:32:46 Speaker 2: to build some partnerships and space, but we were the

1:32:50 Speaker 2: all domain Anominate Resolution Office, and we were still addressing

1:32:55 Speaker 2: the maritime domain. And when I separated and I went

1:32:58 Speaker 2: into retirement, but there's a lot of work to be done.

1:33:01 Speaker 2: Another thing that we thought was fascinating and had a

1:33:04 Speaker 2: lot of potential. I talked a little about crowdsourcing. NASA

1:33:09 Speaker 2: used to have these public competitions where they would have

1:33:14 Speaker 2: a problem.

1:33:15 Speaker 3: They would have non classified, nonsensitive.

1:33:17 Speaker 2: Data and kind of give a science problem to the

1:33:20 Speaker 2: public and ask them, hey, you know, what can you

1:33:23 Speaker 2: do to help us solve this. We would like to

1:33:26 Speaker 2: do that with UAP cases, and I know the current

1:33:31 Speaker 2: John was actually working on how do we do that?

1:33:34 Speaker 2: And a lot of things got slowed down due to

1:33:37 Speaker 2: the transition and the changing government, the fact that we

1:33:40 Speaker 2: no longer had the politicals to report to and get

1:33:44 Speaker 2: permission to execute from Hey, I'm actually on low battery

1:33:48 Speaker 2: right now. We've been talking for about ninety minutes and

1:33:52 Speaker 2: I'm going to have to get off or I'm going

1:33:54 Speaker 2: to lose the signal. But I would love to do

1:33:57 Speaker 2: this again, but I'll make sure on a computer next time,

1:34:01 Speaker 2: or we're face to face to do this.

1:34:03 Speaker 1: Yeah, well real quickly. I just want to say thank

1:34:05 Speaker 1: you for being a patriot. I know we have differing views,

1:34:10 Speaker 1: and I know that there's much more to be to

1:34:12 Speaker 1: be spoken about. You know, I know what I've seen,

1:34:17 Speaker 1: and uh maybe you know we can help educate the

1:34:21 Speaker 1: community on you know, what what UAPs really are and

1:34:26 Speaker 1: how how to investigate them. And I really hope that

1:34:30 Speaker 1: some people get something out of this and learn who

1:34:33 Speaker 1: you really are, because you're you're you are a hard skeptic,

1:34:36 Speaker 1: but I don't think you're opposed to the actual evidence

1:34:39 Speaker 1: being shown. And if it shows that there is something

1:34:42 Speaker 1: non human, I think you'd be Is it fair to

1:34:45 Speaker 1: say you'd be at least open to it?

1:34:47 Speaker 3: Oh?

1:34:48 Speaker 2: Absolutely, Let the evidence speak for itself. We like diversity

1:34:52 Speaker 2: of thob We don't want group think care, but show

1:34:55 Speaker 2: us the evidence. If you make a you make an

1:34:57 Speaker 2: amazing claim. You should have the evidence to back it

1:34:59 Speaker 2: up up. So don't come to me when you've got

1:35:03 Speaker 2: to claim and say I can't tell you because it's classified,

1:35:06 Speaker 2: or you get sick when we invite you into a skiff,

1:35:10 Speaker 2: or we fly fifteen hundred miles to interview, and now

1:35:14 Speaker 2: you get squarely on us. Look, if you you believe

1:35:18 Speaker 2: in something, share with us. You know, we're I hope

1:35:22 Speaker 2: we all are in a search for the truth, and

1:35:25 Speaker 2: we shouldn't let the truth, you know intimidators. Intimidators are

1:35:30 Speaker 2: scared of us.

1:35:31 Speaker 3: We want to know the truth.

1:35:32 Speaker 2: I look at it as a you know, as a

1:35:35 Speaker 2: retired marine, as an intel officer. I'm concerned for the

1:35:38 Speaker 2: national you know, security issue here. Something we don't understand

1:35:45 Speaker 2: that's operating, you know, in close proximity to sensitive locations

1:35:50 Speaker 2: or operational forces.

1:35:51 Speaker 1: I want to know what the hell it is because

1:35:54 Speaker 1: we don't and we need it, so.

1:35:55 Speaker 2: We don't and it's a concern. And maybe next time

1:35:59 Speaker 2: we get together we'll start on that. But I'm gonna

1:36:02 Speaker 2: lose you. All right, It's been great. I hope you

1:36:05 Speaker 2: got enough to you know, add this and put put

1:36:09 Speaker 2: something together.

1:36:10 Speaker 1: Oh, don't worry. I definitely did, Tim, So we will

1:36:14 Speaker 1: uh well, we'll we'll talk soon. And again you're you're

1:36:17 Speaker 1: a patriot, and again you know, I think, uh, we

1:36:20 Speaker 1: need not surround ourselves in echo chambers, and we have

1:36:24 Speaker 1: to talk to people that you know, are skeptical and

1:36:27 Speaker 1: have opposing views to to my own. And you've been

1:36:30 Speaker 1: in the official capacity. So thank you for your service, Tim,

1:36:34 Speaker 1: and thank you everyone for being here. Tim, you can

1:36:36 Speaker 1: get out of here. I know your battery is gonna die.

1:36:40 Speaker 1: That was Tim Phillips, everybody, former acting director of Arrow

1:36:49 Speaker 1: and now retired looking for his next adventure. So with

1:36:55 Speaker 1: that being said, make sure to like, share, subscribe, and

1:36:59 Speaker 1: if you want to be able to watch early access

1:37:01 Speaker 1: to these episodes, please become a member and help support

1:37:05 Speaker 1: the show. It is not free to run this kind

1:37:08 Speaker 1: of program and it is not easy. So with with

1:37:13 Speaker 1: all that, I love you guys, and I'll see you

1:37:16 Speaker 1: on the other side and back.

1:38:11 Speaker 2: Yeah,