'SAUCERS SPOOKS & KOOKS' Ft. Filmmaker Christopher Graybill

0:16 Speaker 1: Thanks for watching!

1:31 Speaker 2: All right, everybody. Welcome back to Total Disclosure.

1:34 Speaker 3: My name is Ty, and I am the host and creator of the show.

1:38 Speaker 2: I am still a bit under the weather, so if you get a little cough here and there, I do apologize.

1:47 Speaker 3: I can't shake this one.

1:48 Speaker 2: I don't get sick. I pride myself on that for the most part. I don't get sick. I have Crohn's, definitely compromised immune system, but I still don't get sick somehow.

2:00 Speaker 3: Yet we just had a guest here for like 10 days.

2:04 Speaker 2: And the last couple of days, guy goes, oh, I'm really feeling this tickle in my throat. And I was like, you son of a bitch. And yeah, then I just came down with something. So sorry about that ahead of time. But super excited for today's show. Before I get into it, guys, make sure to like, share, and subscribe to the channel as we push our video endeavor across the land of YouTube.

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2:49 Speaker 2: If you want to go a little bit further, you can become a member and get early access to raw, early, and unedited stuff like this episode here. Today, we got a great show for you. I just was able to watch a copy of Saucers, Spooks, and Kooks. And we have today Christopher Graybill, who is an animator and filmmaker based in L.A. Some of his past credits include Birds of Prey 2020, Margot Robbie, Dave Made a Maze in 2017, The Death of Superman Lives, What Happened in 2015, or such cartoons as Beavis and Butthead Do the Universe.

3:36 Speaker 2: and X-Men 97, which totally makes sense to why the animations in Saucers, Spooks, and Kooks were so fucking amazing. With that being said, let's welcome our guest today, Chris Grebel. Hello.

4:04 Speaker 2: You're muted.

4:09 Speaker 4: Okay.

4:09 Speaker 2: Now you are good there.

4:11 Speaker 4: Okay, cool.

4:12 Speaker 2: A lot.

4:12 Speaker 3: Everyone does it on their first time. So, uh, welcome Mr.

4:16 Speaker 2: Thank you, Mr. Graybill. That is such a, that is such a, uh, I don't know why I love that last name so much, but it, but I do.

4:25 Speaker 4: Um, it's Mennonite, I think.

4:28 Speaker 2: Okay. Okay. Um, so listen, we talked a little bit about this behind the scenes. I gotta ask, cause some of my audience is, uh, uh, some of my audience are still big, like superhero fans, superhero genre fans. And, uh, you know, I got my, I, I, the one, the only one you could see, I have a justice league leg sleeve as well, but I got my, uh, my cap shield. I, this is the only tattoo I regret because I put it somewhere you could see, but, um, so, uh, birds of prey, uh, you know, I, I, I, that movie, that was still in like the Snyderverse days before they kind of rebooted.

5:15 Speaker 2: So Birds of Prey and then X-Men 97. X-Men 97 though, you're talking about the new Disney Plus, the new Disney Plus rollout. Season three is about to, or season three is being worked on right now?

5:29 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's probably going to be out next year, I bet.

5:32 Speaker 2: Yeah, Marvel Television just did their, Brad Winterbaum just did the did the announcements yesterday and they announced the show called zodiac and it's kind of interesting because um it's got that agents of shield logo in the a and it's just like dude are you continuing agents of shield uh i would love that but um how is working on like things like x-men.

5:58 Speaker 1: 97 man that show has the most talented people working on it and i felt so humbled and lucky to have worked.

6:07 Speaker 4: On season one and two.

6:09 Speaker 1: So, um, yeah, it was such, such talented people and, you know, um, it was, you know, I love that the original series.

6:19 Speaker 4: When I was a kid.

6:20 Speaker 1: So it was really special working on the, the kind of the sequel of that.

6:25 Speaker 2: Yeah.

6:26 Speaker 3: Um, I'm not going to bog you down too much on this, but, um, uh, sorry, but I just coughed.

6:37 Speaker 2: I had to mute myself. Ooh, this is killing me. But, uh, so any, anything you can, uh, anything you can let us know about, uh, season three or you, or do you have like a tracker in your head for Marvel?

6:50 Speaker 1: I totally have a microchip for Marvel.

6:53 Speaker 2: Blows up.

6:53 Speaker 4: All right.

6:56 Speaker 2: I had to ask cause, uh, season three, I mean, season two left off on such a, uh, a cool little cliffhanger with mystique.

7:04 Speaker 3: And, uh, I'm really excited to see that.

7:07 Speaker 2: I know we're going to get rogue and, uh, Rogan Remy, uh, or, or Rogan gambits marriage or wedding. Um, is what I heard.

7:16 Speaker 3: You don't have to confirm anything.

7:18 Speaker 2: You can just sit there, you know, with that chip in your head, but I have to, yeah. Um, but you, you with, with credits like this, I got to ask, What made you guys transition to doing something like Saucers, Spooks, and Kooks? And for anyone who doesn't know, it's such a good film. Highly recommend it. I actually couldn't recommend it more based on my tabulations. It came out at like, I gave it an 8.8 out of 10, which I've only give a handful of nines in my life. Um, but this, this ranked super high just because of you hit almost everything.

8:10 Speaker 2: So with what, what made you guys embark on this journey?

8:15 Speaker 1: Well, it was a personal project for me at first. I had been wanting to do like a UFO film for years.

8:22 Speaker 4: Like a decade.

8:23 Speaker 1: And so, um, it was actually when I was at the conference in Laughlin in, um, I think it was like 2006 or something. And people were talking to skin Walker was new people. Richard Doty was there. The, the crew from Mirage men was there and it just got me really interested.

8:46 Speaker 4: In, you know, thinking about a documentary for UFOs.

8:50 Speaker 1: And so, you know, fast forward to 2020, we're in lockdown and I'm like itching to do a project. And, um, you know, I do have like a professional career in animation, but then, you know, this is like more of a passion project. And so, um, yeah, I just started reading different books and found saucer spooks and kooks by Adam go rightly and contacted him and we hit it off. And, you know, we just started going back and forth to work out of like a story for the film because the.

9:21 Speaker 4: Book is like so much more expansive.

9:23 Speaker 2: Right.

9:24 Speaker 4: So we really like, you.

9:26 Speaker 1: Know, worked hard on narrowing down everything that we could fit into it.

9:30 Speaker 4: And I went way overboard.

9:33 Speaker 1: You know, I was getting into like Bill Cooper and QAnon and like trailing off into threads I probably shouldn't have gone to. But it was a lot of fun, the process.

9:44 Speaker 2: Yeah.

9:45 Speaker 3: And so tell me about that. Now, did you, I.

9:49 Speaker 2: Mean, growing up, it seems like, I mean, I don't want to make assumptions here, but. with the credits that you have, it seems that, you know, sci-fi, fantasy.

10:02 Speaker 3: You like that kind of stuff.

10:03 Speaker 2: So were UFOs something you always were interested in, but just hadn't really made anything on?

10:10 Speaker 3: Or, you know, any personal experiences? What really tipped the cap?

10:16 Speaker 1: Well, I think of just, you know, watching like shows like Current Affair, they would have like a UFO segment or, you know.

10:25 Speaker 2: Hell yeah.

10:27 Speaker 1: Just some of these like tabloid shows back in the 90s, they would have on like Bob Lazar and it would really pique my curiosity. But I've always kept like a skeptical view of everything. But it's entertaining. It's so entertaining. And so I really came at it from that perspective.

10:45 Speaker 2: And then.

10:46 Speaker 1: I did have like a weird experience when maybe I was like 16. There was like– I saw like a fireball come– like this is in Texas, rural Texas, no lights around. It's completely in the country. Me and my buddy are driving down in his pickup, and there's a fireball comes flying across the windshield, maybe 30 feet in front of us. It hits– you know, out of sight behind some trees or something lights up the, the night, like it was day for like a split second.

11:23 Speaker 4: Um, that just like, Whoa, what was that? That was insane.

11:27 Speaker 1: And so that, that was kind of one early experience I had, but nothing, nothing really to report more than that.

11:34 Speaker 3: But, um, so like a fire in the sky.

11:37 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah. It was literally a fire in the skies.

11:41 Speaker 2: Did you guys pull over at all? I would have went right in.

11:45 Speaker 1: My buddy was driving and was like, we got to get out of here. It was on private property too, so we didn't.

11:52 Speaker 2: Want to mess with that. I feel like as young people, as a young person, you always kind of look at the sky and Just imagine like, you know, what's out there. So these are questions I feel like we all ponder at one point or another. I call them like the big existential, the existential stuff, right? You look up to the sky and you go, is anyone else.

12:22 Speaker 3: Like looking back?

12:24 Speaker 2: Like, am I looking out? And is anyone looking back, right?

12:28 Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it's a trip to be alive. And just normal reality is so crazy to think about. Right, right.

12:36 Speaker 2: That's one of the things I tell people all the time. Cause they're like, well, why do you think that we're not alone? And I'm like, why would you think we are like, the fact that we're able to have this conversation, like there was no guarantee that, and I could backtrack and dig us into some holes real quick. I'll try not to, but like the fact that we're having this conversation and is a miracle in itself.

13:10 Speaker 4: Right, sure.

13:11 Speaker 2: We're spinning on a ball that's spinning around another ball that's spinning.

13:16 Speaker 4: Around a ball of fire. It's insane.

13:20 Speaker 2: Right. And somehow, in some way, we still.

13:29 Speaker 3: Try to boil things down to black and white.

13:32 Speaker 2: Yes or no. And one of the things that my mother taught me very early on was that, first off, we didn't know. Because when I had my own sighting, the only reason I had it was because of her and because she let me stay home from school that day.

13:50 Speaker 3: I would have never been there.

13:53 Speaker 2: Never.

13:53 Speaker 1: Cool.

13:54 Speaker 2: And when I ran into her, she was always that type of mother who, like, she didn't sugarcoat anything. Right? So... she sat me down and she's like, you didn't see God. Like she, she didn't tell me I saw God or nothing at all. She didn't say I saw a plane or my imagination. Cause I was 12 or whatever. She goes, you saw a UFO. And I was like, what is that? And then she told me, we don't know.

14:27 Speaker 4: And like that, Do you tell your story a lot, the experience?

14:32 Speaker 2: Kind of.

14:33 Speaker 4: Okay. Maybe you can tell me later.

14:35 Speaker 2: No, no, no. It's my show. My show. Right on.

14:42 Speaker 4: Yeah, do it.

14:44 Speaker 2: You know, what's funny is the two experiences I had, the common denominator is my mother. And we lost her on 4-3-2-1 to breast cancer. So you can't see it. Um, but in every room in the studio, she's always, she's always the highest in the, in the room.

15:09 Speaker 3: And she's always, she's right there. She's looking down upon me.

15:12 Speaker 2: And, uh, you know, I like that.

15:15 Speaker 1: Yeah.

15:15 Speaker 2: You'll you, this is a little thing for people who watch the show on, on YouTube, but you'll always see me kind of like look up.

15:23 Speaker 3: And if I look up, that's what I'm looking at is my mom.

15:26 Speaker 4: That's really sweet, man. Yeah.

15:29 Speaker 2: So she kept me home from school one day.

15:33 Speaker 3: She would do the same because my dad went to jail.

15:37 Speaker 2: My dad went to jail for like seven or eight years.

15:44 Speaker 3: I don't want to talk about that part, but she had three kids. And every once in a while, she just wants some company.

15:52 Speaker 2: And she was like, you know, do you want to stay home from school? And whatever kid got that, like whatever of one of, one of three, whoever got that, it was like the golden.

16:07 Speaker 3: Ticket, right? Stay home from school that day.

16:10 Speaker 2: Right.

16:12 Speaker 3: So never questioned it.

16:13 Speaker 1: Never. Yep.

16:15 Speaker 4: Sure.

16:16 Speaker 2: Mom definitely want to, I'm definitely feeling sick. Yeah.

16:20 Speaker 3: Like you said, you know, not feeling too well.

16:23 Speaker 4: Maybe I should stay home today.

16:25 Speaker 3: She just wanted me to sit on the couch and watch live with.

16:28 Speaker 2: Regis and Kathy, which then became Regis and Kelly over the years. But so I remember that was at 9 a.m. It was always on at 9 a.m. So I watched that with her. She drank her coffee. And then I went outside and played because we didn't have Internet back then.

16:49 Speaker 3: Not like we do now. And I was outside.

16:54 Speaker 2: And I was playing a game called off the wall because no one was around.

16:58 Speaker 3: You couldn't play catch.

16:59 Speaker 2: So I would throw the tennis ball off the roof of my house and it would bounce back to me.

17:04 Speaker 3: And it sounds kind of lonely, but it was actually.

17:08 Speaker 2: I love that. I still play. I still play to this day on this house, this.

17:15 Speaker 3: Studio, I should say.

17:18 Speaker 2: My house is across the street and my real house. And so yeah, I throw the ball and by the time I release it, man, I'm looking, I'm looking up at the house, right? So I'm throwing upward. So I release and then this thing comes from South to North over me and it's oscillating. And when I released the ball, that's when a glint hits me. This thing's like tree top level. classic disc gunmetal gray wow oscillating like it had all the time in the world and if there was writing on the bottom of it I'd be able to make I would have been able to read it that's how like close this thing was and time just stopped and I just watched this thing and I remember just watching it and going Holy shit.

18:23 Speaker 2: And you know what's funny is I remember like very vividly the ball rolling off the roof and then bouncing because it was a tennis ball. Boom. Boom. And it went right past me and hit the fence behind me and then came to a stop. And I heard it ting off the fence and stop.

18:43 Speaker 3: But I was locked.

18:44 Speaker 2: Like I was frozen, glued to this thing. And it goes over my house at treetop level. I chase it around my house. By the time I get to the backyard, it either disappeared into the canopy of trees and I couldn't see it or the thing vanished. I don't know. Wow. So then I run into my mom into the house and that's when she has that conversation with me. She brings me to the library. I get my hands on Communion. And it's a rack.

19:18 Speaker 4: Communion. You went straight to communion. Okay.

19:20 Speaker 2: Yeah. She handed me communion. And I have a feeling she knew. She knew more than she let on. Why would she hand me communion first?

19:31 Speaker 4: Yeah. That's, yeah. I mean, it was a popular book back in the day.

19:37 Speaker 3: But I never saw, I never said I saw an alien.

19:40 Speaker 1: Right. Right.

19:41 Speaker 4: That's true.

19:41 Speaker 2: Just a disc. And she hands me communion. We checked out like a stack of books that day. Cause I asked her, I was like, can you teach me about what UFOs are? And she's like, I can't, but I'll bring you to the library and we'll check out some books. And so she was never, she never forced her perspective, whether it was religion, nothing. She never, she never, it's not that she didn't want to teach me what a UFO was. She didn't, I feel like she didn't want to take the, like my own perception. Right.

20:17 Speaker 3: And then the day she died was when I had my second one.

20:21 Speaker 4: Oh my God. Really? Yeah.

20:24 Speaker 1: Yeah.

20:24 Speaker 4: That's intense, man.

20:26 Speaker 2: Yeah.

20:27 Speaker 1: Yeah.

20:28 Speaker 2: Yeah.

20:28 Speaker 3: And that was more paranormal.

20:30 Speaker 2: So I saw, I think I saw her leave the room. I'll boil it down to that. I'll send you a video after the show. And it explains both experiences very detailed, but a softball-sized... Like, you ever look down a highway on a hot day and see that, like, ball that up? Ball that up?

20:57 Speaker 3: I saw that leave the room. Like, it hooked an L out of the room.

21:02 Speaker 2: And when I looked back at my mother, she was gone.

21:07 Speaker 3: And I had her hand in my hand.

21:09 Speaker 2: Yeah.

21:09 Speaker 4: Yeah.

21:10 Speaker 2: So I'm not sure if like, I was just grieving so hard. So I'm still not sure if that one was real, but I never went back to Hollywood and I,

21:25 Speaker 2: I started chasing this subject.

21:27 Speaker 4: Okay.

21:28 Speaker 2: It seems like it was her final push. Get back on the track that you should be on. She's like, and she always used to say this thing to me. She would always say, And for anyone listening, I'm very sorry. We're going to get to the movie. He asked me and now I'm very into it.

21:45 Speaker 4: I'm super curious. So please.

21:49 Speaker 2: She always used to say this thing to me. She said, you got to find what you love. She's got, you got to find the question you want answered. The question I want answered. And shoot, that's what she said. She's like, you got to find meaning in life. Like we're not meant to go to work nine to five. Find something that you want to chase and face. Don't stop. And here I am chasing and not stopping.

22:23 Speaker 4: So that's beautiful, man.

22:25 Speaker 2: Yeah.

22:26 Speaker 4: You really took that and ran with it. That's great.

22:29 Speaker 2: Yes.

22:29 Speaker 4: So let me ask you.

22:31 Speaker 2: One day of my life became the day total disclosure was born.

22:37 Speaker 4: Ah, I have a question with your first experience.

22:43 Speaker 1: When you saw this thing and you said you were locked in, did it feel like it had an awareness of your presence?

22:50 Speaker 4: Yeah.

22:52 Speaker 1: So there was like a consciousness thing happening between you guys.

22:56 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was meant... Over the years, I've come to... Because I've asked. I asked everyone in my neighborhood.

23:04 Speaker 4: I never....

23:07 Speaker 2: You know what I mean?

23:08 Speaker 3: I wanted to know if someone else had seen it that day.

23:11 Speaker 4: Was this a Boston area?

23:13 Speaker 2: Yeah. Suburbs about 45 minutes outside of Boston in a small town called Billerica. Well, it's actually the largest town,

23:24 Speaker 2: but it's still a town. It's the smallest big town. So nobody else saw it. I'm convinced that that was like fate had set me up for that moment. What are the odds she asked me to stay home that day? What are the odds that I go out? Like, all of it, right? The whole domino effect. And then I'm the only one who sees this fucking life-changing thing.

23:52 Speaker 4: Sure.

23:53 Speaker 3: When I say treetop level, Chris, I'm not joking.

23:57 Speaker 4: Sure, you're sure. Like 40 feet, 30 feet in the air?

24:01 Speaker 2: Maybe a little bit more.

24:02 Speaker 3: 50, 60. The trees out here are tall.

24:05 Speaker 2: But Oscillating.

24:11 Speaker 3: But what I grew up next to an air force base.

24:15 Speaker 4: Oh, I was going to ask is this, was there air force base around?

24:19 Speaker 2: Yes.

24:19 Speaker 3: And there was a Lockheed and a Raytheon.

24:23 Speaker 1: Oh, wow.

24:24 Speaker 4: You got the whole military.

24:25 Speaker 2: I got the whole kit. Right. And this thing made no noise. That's I couldn't wrap my head around that part was there was no noise. And I grew up in the 9-11 era. I knew what jets streaking across the sky sounded like. I knew what planes... I knew what flew and what didn't. This thing should not have been up there. It should fall from the sky by all intents and purposes.

25:00 Speaker 4: Man, that's wild.

25:01 Speaker 2: Yeah, man. And classic... I mean, you couldn't make this shit up. Like, classic gunmetal gray. three protrusions that if you drew a line to each one, it would make a triangle.

25:15 Speaker 4: Classic.

25:15 Speaker 1: Yeah.

25:15 Speaker 2: Literal classic disc. I don't know. And then I saw the orb in the room. So those two moments really changed my life.

25:23 Speaker 1: Wow, man.

25:24 Speaker 4: Yeah. Sounds like it. Well, I'm glad you're here doing this.

25:28 Speaker 2: Me too. Me too. And so to get to, to kind of segue into, you know, um, Saucers, spooks, and kooks is centered.

25:42 Speaker 3: Can you give me a.

25:43 Speaker 2: Can you give the audience a little idea of what the story... Give me the elevator pitch for what it is because I think people... will really enjoy hearing that out of your mouth, from you.

26:01 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's, I think I wrote somewhere in the synopsis, it's a cautionary tale of how disinformation works, how people get locked in, you know, like into conspiracy theories and, you know, kind of go down rabbit holes that maybe aren't the most healthiest places to be. And so it's kind of like a, cautionary tale of like, you know, we need to.

26:28 Speaker 4: Keep grounded in this space of UFOs. So the, the whole story is like.

26:39 Speaker 1: About the kind of the tropes and the, you know, all the concepts that came out of the eighties and the writer, Adam go rightly again, he kind of traced everything or most things back to the Paul Benowitz case.

26:54 Speaker 3: So, So that's what I wanted to hear.

26:58 Speaker 1: Yeah, so the underground alien base trope, the implant trope, maybe even the tinfoil hat trope, the great alien trope, they're all kind of like branching out from the Paul Benowitz story.

27:13 Speaker 2: A lot of us in the UFO community, the Paul Benowitz story, like the Mirage Men, the Men in Black, I call Benowitz... kind of like patient zero for a more hands-on disinformation, like active disinformation campaign from, and I've, I've, I've had Richard Doty on the show. I've had, you know, I've, I've talked to Richard Doty, you know, I've interviewed him. I've interviewed, you know, the, the likes of, um, who, who some say is the new Doty, but, um, This Benowitz story, a lot of people don't realize that a lot of the things that are still talked about today, you can trace back to Richard Doty and Air Force OSI.

28:10 Speaker 2: I wanted to talk to you a little bit to start about deception and disinformation. Can you tell me a little bit about Can you, can you summarize the Benowitz story for us here?

28:25 Speaker 4: Oh my gosh.

28:26 Speaker 2: Yeah.

28:26 Speaker 1: So Paul Benowitz was a scientist and he was, he had, he had some contracts I think with the air force and this was in Albuquerque, New Mexico at Kirtland air force base. And he, his, uh, company was like right on the border of, um, the air force base. But then he was also living like across the street basically from some of their, uh, testing areas. And so, you know, he got up on the roof one night and was looking around and noticed these strange lights, um, that were, you know, would come up and then fly around the mountains and, um, just doing odd things.

29:06 Speaker 1: And he noticed like little people around there. So he wasn't sure what was going on exactly. And he decided to contact the air force base about this. And he was, he was in touch with, uh, Major Ernest Edwards, I think. And so he gets in touch with the Air Force. They bring him in to kind of like figure out what he knows more than, you know, they set it up as like, oh, we want you to give a presentation of what you're seeing, but they're kind of just like, you know, checking.

29:40 Speaker 4: To see what he knows you know if he who he knows and.

29:44 Speaker 1: Who he's in contact with because this is during the cold war and so you know whatever they're testing or whatever's going on at the base they.

29:53 Speaker 4: Need to keep it you know in their arena so.

29:57 Speaker 2: Yeah they need to make sure that he has not

30:01 Speaker 2: that he's not about to blow the lid on any secret projects or.

30:07 Speaker 1: Right, or just talking to Russians or someone reporting back to Russians.

30:13 Speaker 2: Yeah, because everybody knows that, you know, in the 80s,

30:19 Speaker 2: the Russians, they kind of infiltrated MUFON, and Benowitz was a big... big into the membership of MUFON. So MUFON had been infiltrated by Russian spies because, and they didn't really care about the UFO stuff so much. They knew that a lot of this stuff was, you know, Air Force secret projects. So that's more what they were interested in.

30:48 Speaker 1: The UFOs were kind of like a touch point for, You know, oh, if they say there's like 66 people died over here and then they're like, oh, we know where this.

30:59 Speaker 4: Story is coming from.

30:59 Speaker 1: This guy's information is bunk or, oh, this is good information.

31:04 Speaker 2: Right. So, you know, what happens is, and again, cautionary tale is a good way to describe this, because Benowitz being the, you know, initially the patriot he is, he's like, I just want to help. I just want to, I just want to help. Like, I think I'm onto something here. Um, and they, instead of saying, Hey, you saw something, one of our secrets, it's, it's not what you think it is, but we can't really tell you what it is.

31:41 Speaker 4: Um, like be a good citizen. Don't talk.

31:47 Speaker 1: Yeah.

31:47 Speaker 2: Be a good citizen. You want to lose those contracts or do you want to get more of You know, instead of doing that whole spiel, they go, no, dude, you're seeing aliens.

31:59 Speaker 1: And I think a lot of that too, was that he was already very into the subject.

32:04 Speaker 2: Yeah.

32:05 Speaker 1: He was, you know, I think he was going up to Dulce base before they'd even mentioned anything about Dulce base because, or the Dulce area, I should say, because there had been, you know, phenomenon reported there for a long time, but, So yeah, he was into it, and I think that was the end for like, oh, let's use this.

32:27 Speaker 2: Right. And it seems the Benowitz story is, like I said, it's the first case that I know of where it seems that Air Force Office of Special Investigation decides we need to do something more hands-on to guide this a different way. to actively deceive and kind of inject this nonsense into the community to eventually be able to kneecap it and discredit everything.

33:14 Speaker 3: So what happens next?

33:18 Speaker 2: Benowitz tries to be a patriot, and he's very well-known in the UFO sector, in the community at the time.

33:29 Speaker 4: Right.

33:29 Speaker 1: I think it's probably a good place where Bill Moore.

33:34 Speaker 4: Pops up into the scene. Yes.

33:37 Speaker 1: And starts back and forth with Benowitz, and he's going between Doty delivering Doty, bunk papers to Benowitz.

33:46 Speaker 4: To try to, you know, do exactly what you said is just, uh, cut him off at the knees and make him look like a fool. Basically. Um, some of this works, you know, Benowitz does, I think he goes on.

34:00 Speaker 1: Um, or he gets, there's a big article about him in the Albuquerque paper about seeing UFOs and that he he's in, you know, uh, talks with, uh, military about it. And he, The article does maybe come off like, oh, this guy is, you know, he's kooky.

34:20 Speaker 4: But so, yeah, that was a lot.

34:24 Speaker 1: Bill Moore is kind of interfacing with him now and starts maybe like writing a book about Benowitz's story and kind of interjects the Richard Doty character as like the main character of this book. And this is not in the film, by the way, but. maybe I should stick to the film.

34:49 Speaker 4: So, yeah.

34:51 Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. What was it?

34:53 Speaker 4: Oh, no, it's just this.

34:54 Speaker 1: Book that they were, this novel, it was like a fictionalized novel of the whole Benowitz story. And so you could see Bill Moore and potentially Richard, Richard Doty, like working together to kind of get the story out in some way.

35:08 Speaker 4: And they're kind of like spitballing on how to do that.

35:12 Speaker 1: And the best way, And so this eventually kind of like gets out into the wider UFO sphere.

35:21 Speaker 4: At the time, which is very fringe still. It's like weirdos at a convention or something that it's not mainstream at all. And so the stories start, you know, evolving. You have the.

35:38 Speaker 1: Rich, I should back up is like Richard Doty is like given this computer and from the Air Force, supposedly, and it's giving him all of this information. This information then gets into the wider sphere of the UFO scene, and the stories start evolving, and then you get something like the Dulce Base firefight and all of that.

36:02 Speaker 4: Story.

36:04 Speaker 1: Cattle mutilations really blow up around that time, not because of Benowitz, but he was definitely into that scene.

36:12 Speaker 4: There was a big cattle mutilation convention that.

36:15 Speaker 1: They were trying to, like, round up some money to kind of figure out what was going on, which ended in the FBI saying there's nothing to it.

36:24 Speaker 4: But where was I going with that?

36:28 Speaker 2: Well, there's a couple main characters, right? So you got Doty, right?

36:35 Speaker 1: Right.

36:36 Speaker 3: Who's the Air Force OSI guy.

36:38 Speaker 2: And... he's looking at, you know, he is giving disinformation, not only to Paul Benowitz, but to Linda Moulton. How that's right. Right.

36:53 Speaker 1: Yeah.

36:54 Speaker 2: Um, so.

36:57 Speaker 3: He, Dodie seems to be.

37:02 Speaker 2: Either the bad guy in the story, right. Plain and simple, or he's following orders. In which case, still the bad guy, but, like, you can kind of forgive him a little bit. But, I mean, that's beside the point. Because Benowitz does not just get lied to. Benowitz starts to deteriorate, right?

37:29 Speaker 4: Right.

37:30 Speaker 2: And Doty even says to this day that he actually considered Paul a friend, right?

37:38 Speaker 3: After over that, you know, overdoing that to him.

37:41 Speaker 2: And I don't.

37:44 Speaker 3: Know if I believe that necessarily, but.

37:51 Speaker 2: When Paul starts to deteriorate, become more and more convinced that what he's seeing at Kirtland is in fact UFOs, he starts coming to the door with a shotgun and a pistol and he starts covering everything in aluminum foil. And again, this is where you start getting those tropes of tinfoil hat, the paranoid schizophrenic, paranoid guy.

38:26 Speaker 3: Who knows too much, right?

38:27 Speaker 4: Right, right.

38:29 Speaker 2: But you also have, what I've never really understood is why Dodie went, why they went to Linda. Was it simply because they knew that she was doing this film, Strange Harvest, and then the next one was going to be the one they really wanted to discredit.

38:53 Speaker 1: So Mark Pilkington has a pretty good theory about this, and I tend to go with this, is that she was working on another film, like you mentioned, about the two ladies with the son in Houston.

39:08 Speaker 2: Texas, the Cash Landers.

39:10 Speaker 4: Thank you.

39:13 Speaker 1: So she's working on this and they don't want this to get out for whatever reason, because maybe it is a military craft or, you know, whatever reason. But so, you know, they're like kind of teasing this special footage that she can get, you know, if she like.

39:30 Speaker 4: Just goes along with them. Right.

39:32 Speaker 1: And which, of course, the the special footage never surfaces. She like keeps putting putting off HBO because she had a contract with HBO to get the documentary made. But she she loses the the bid with with HBO to get this done. And she's kind of left, you know. high and dry with it, everything. So that's kind of Mark Pilkington's idea, and I like that one.

39:56 Speaker 2: So walk us through the point where private research becomes a counterintelligence problem. You know, in your view, did the Air Force Office of Special Investigation, did they, do you think that they actively decided to, I mean, experiment on Benowitz, do you think? Yeah.

40:24 Speaker 1: It's a really weird part of the story is that there were, you know, multiple people reported seeing these little boards around in his house and that they would come over and like hit him and there would be like little burn.

40:39 Speaker 4: Marks on his arms.

40:40 Speaker 1: And, you know, there's multiple people in the film that knew Benowitz at this time and reported seeing some of this stuff or at least the burn marks. And so there is some aspects to this that are really, really weird. I'm not going to jump and say it's aliens, but it's very possible. There was like non-lethal weapons testing happening at Kirtland Air Force Base starting up right around this time.

41:07 Speaker 4: So it's very possible. They're like, here's our UFO kook.

41:10 Speaker 1: Let's just try all this stuff out on him because, you know, he's going to be discredited anyway.

41:16 Speaker 3: And he's expendable.

41:18 Speaker 4: He's totally expendable. U.S. citizen.

41:21 Speaker 3: Which is fucking crazy when you think about it.

41:24 Speaker 4: It's very crazy.

41:26 Speaker 2: Right? Because, you know, talking about Skinwalker Ranch, right? And Robert Bigelow and all that. There's a guy named Dr. John Alexander. Sure.

41:40 Speaker 3: The father of non-lethal weaponry.

41:43 Speaker 4: I think he was there at Kirtland around that time, actually. Yep.

41:47 Speaker 2: And ends up at Skinwalker Ranch and part of NIDS, right? And, I mean, we'll get to that part later. But directed energy weapons are, I mean, it's something we're still talking about today, along with deception and disinformation. So it seems like, you know, Benowitz didn't just get lied to. Um, but like I said, I think he was an active experimentation on how far they could take this if need be, if need be. Right. And Benowitz was this like patient zero for a more hands-on approach because, you know, project blue book up and up until then, they really just kind of, uh, denied and debunked and moved on.

42:42 Speaker 3: But this was way more hands-on.

42:44 Speaker 2: I mean, they're, they're giving them computers, you know, they're flying them over Dulce.

42:50 Speaker 4: Very cloak and dagger kind of stuff.

42:53 Speaker 3: Very cloak and dagger.

42:54 Speaker 2: They're essentially staging things in the, you know, they fly Benowitz over Dulce and they're staging things in the woods or, you know, on the ground that they're pointing to going, you know, take picture of that, you know, take a picture of that. There seems to be a crash retreat crash right over there.

43:14 Speaker 1: Right. I should say is that the whole reason of taking him to Dulce was to get him away from looking at Kirtland.

43:22 Speaker 4: And so this is why they're showing him the Dulce.

43:26 Speaker 1: Oh, there's like an underground base there and there's aliens and there's a crashed spaceship over there. And so this was like all to divert his attention, supposedly, you know, from what we assessed in the film.

43:40 Speaker 2: Yeah. Do you think that. So we know Bill Moore was compromised. He, whether you want to think it's for altruistic reasons or not, he's compromised. Did you ever look into whether Stanton Friedman was compromised as well?

44:00 Speaker 4: I think he was probably led on by Bill with a lot of this stuff.

44:04 Speaker 1: And then after it came out that a lot of it was disinformation, you know, Stanton, he doubled down and didn't want to like, you know, cop to his, that he was, he was duped. I really, I don't think he was, but that's just my opinion.

44:23 Speaker 2: Okay.

44:24 Speaker 3: So the film's claims, the film claim, oh my God, I can't speak.

44:29 Speaker 2: The film's claim is that a, you know, a local operation becomes national mythology eventually. What do you think is the first idea that escapes Benowitz's house and makes its way into living on its own, i.e. grays, underground bases, Dulce, crash saucers, or something else.

44:55 Speaker 4: Right.

44:56 Speaker 1: The crash saucer thing really comes from Bill Moore's book, The Roswell Incident. Um, but to get back to the Benowitz thing, the first thing to really get off into the wild, so to speak, would be the Dulce base myth. So, um, A guy named Talavesk writes this article, like kind of confirming about the Dulce base. And this really like captures the imagination of a lot of people. One of those people being John Lear, who goes to meet Benowitz and he wants to know everything Benowitz.

45:31 Speaker 4: Knows about the Dulce base and the aliens.

45:35 Speaker 1: And he comes up with this bonkers paper and puts it up on what, It's like they're called BBSs.

45:44 Speaker 4: There is like an old forum, like the early, early Internet.

45:48 Speaker 1: And so he puts this paper up on that and it's just lays out the whole Dulce myth. You know, there was a government deal with the aliens to trade technology for human DNA and cattle DNA. And it's just goes really far out into, you know, wild speculations. which then people like Bill Cooper look at the paper and say, oh, 90% of this is true.

46:18 Speaker 4: I stand by this. It starts really going.

46:23 Speaker 1: Out into the wild when you have John Lear writing this paper.

46:29 Speaker 2: Yeah, as soon as John Lear becomes introduced, I find it to be, I mean, it's almost like, I have it here somewhere. I tried to like follow it through.

46:43 Speaker 1: Cool.

46:43 Speaker 4: I want to, I want to hear.

46:47 Speaker 2: It person to person. So, um, it looks like we got Kirtland cause I don't want to sit in every, everyone knows the Benowitz story, right?

46:57 Speaker 3: Um, most, most of my audience knows this.

47:00 Speaker 2: So I kind of want to move on, um, to bigger, but you know, the, the, the topical stuff that is still being done today. Hmm. So we have Kirtland and Doty. They get introduced to Benowitz through the whole situation. They try to deflect to Dulce, right? And that ends up leading to eventually this 1989 Mufon meltdown, which then....

47:39 Speaker 3: Then we get to Project Serpo, which is like.

47:42 Speaker 2: An alien exchange program. And then we get to TTSA. Enter Lou Elizondo, who I call the new Richard Doty.

47:53 Speaker 4: Oh, you said it.

47:57 Speaker 2: The 2017 New York Times article, ATIP, OSAP. And you see the same names. through the whole time. Kit Green, Al Puthoff, John Lear, Stan Freeman, Jamie Shandera, Tal Levesque, Dodie, Linda Moulton Howe. You see that everything can be traced back to Kirtland and Benowitz. Whether you're talking about the technology, the disinformation, the seeded information, um, everything seems to trace back to this, this original deception campaign.

48:45 Speaker 4: Yeah. Bill Moore is like at the center of most of this stuff too.

48:50 Speaker 2: Right.

48:50 Speaker 1: Like with the Roswell incident and the meta metals and just so many of the tropes.

48:56 Speaker 2: The, the, the gray non-human intelligence fighting non-human intelligence is And humans getting caught in the middle of it. We heard this as recently as a week ago. Joe Rogan, David Grush.

49:19 Speaker 4: I haven't listened. to that yet.

49:21 Speaker 2: Talking about reptilians and greys fighting each other. So, and I'm sorry, I got a little kind of, my head is still a little cloudy. I'm not trying to make excuses.

49:37 Speaker 4: But, um, I'll have to watch that clip. That sounds really fun.

49:41 Speaker 2: But you have this original Benoist story. It's a real mirror to what's happening.

49:48 Speaker 3: Today in 2026.

49:50 Speaker 2: It's crazy to me because no one else sees this.

49:59 Speaker 3: It's the same story.

50:00 Speaker 2: It's fucking repackaged for a modern audience, told in a slightly different way, but There's no evidence any time ever.

50:11 Speaker 4: Right.

50:12 Speaker 1: So, yeah, I was going to just add is like instead of it being so hands on to like one person, it's the Internet, dude. It's just everybody. And if you're on the Internet, you're getting fed disinformation.

50:26 Speaker 2: So, yeah, you what do you think about that, though, that the I mean, do you think we're alone in the universe?

50:36 Speaker 1: No. No.

50:37 Speaker 4: I think there's probably something out there. Are they visiting us?

50:42 Speaker 3: That's the question, right?

50:45 Speaker 1: I'm skeptical, but I tend to think there is something probably more like John Kill thinks is like extra dimensional or something that's more interlinked with consciousness that if you're opening yourself to it, then you're going to be able to experience something.

51:05 Speaker 2: I was going to I was going to say that.

51:09 Speaker 4: Go ahead. Oh, you were going to say that.

51:11 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to kind of say something along the similar lines is because one thing I'll say is that, I mean, trace back to the earliest history, right? Like ancient Sumerian, these beings they talk about came from the heavens, right? taught them civilization, whether it's agriculture, alchemy, all of the above, essentially. And then they leave. They say, we'll return. And then they're worshipped as gods. So could what we talk about as gods or what humans have labeled gods Right.

52:08 Speaker 1: Right. Right. Right.

52:36 Speaker 3: To the ancient Sumerians, right?

52:38 Speaker 4: Well, yeah, it would be magic to us.

52:40 Speaker 2: Yeah, right.

52:41 Speaker 3: It would be magic to us, let alone.

52:45 Speaker 4: I don't know about the Sumerian thing, but sorry to interrupt you.

52:49 Speaker 2: No, no, no.

52:50 Speaker 3: I have the worst habit of interruption.

52:53 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I don't know the specific case of the Sumerians having gods come down, but there's shamanistic practices that would happen where there was a person there to, you know, talk to the, our world and the, and the beyond.

53:12 Speaker 4: And so, you know, we've really kind of lost that in our, you know, modern society.

53:18 Speaker 2: Right.

53:18 Speaker 1: So, um, yeah, I don't, I think it's possible that there's definitely could be something like that out there.

53:25 Speaker 4: So.

53:26 Speaker 3: Are you religious?

53:29 Speaker 4: Kind of. I mean, yeah, I'd say so. Sure.

53:33 Speaker 3: Do you believe in angels and demons?

53:37 Speaker 4: Maybe in a sense. I mean, it could be.

53:42 Speaker 3: By definition.

53:44 Speaker 1: Well, I guess define that for me.

53:48 Speaker 2: No, no, no. By definition, an angel or a demon would be what? A non-human intelligence.

53:56 Speaker 4: Oh, I see what you're saying. Sure.

53:58 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

53:59 Speaker 4: I mean.

54:01 Speaker 2: Yeah.

54:01 Speaker 4: It's very, you know, in the Buddhist.

54:03 Speaker 1: Tradition, when you die and you're in the Bardo, there are entities that are there to like get you off the path or like distract you and take.

54:12 Speaker 4: You to hell.

54:14 Speaker 1: But those are your own, that's your own imagination. That's your own projections, you know? So it may be, there is, maybe it's something like that where our consciousness is projecting these things and it's really just us. So that's, something I've kind of come to think about. I've been reading the book of the dead, like, you know, 20 times now. So I'm a little influenced.

54:39 Speaker 3: Interesting.

54:41 Speaker 2: What do you think the 2026 version of the Paul Benowitz story is? Um, I, I short think it's been scaled up. Um, but like I said, do you, I think Paul was, was patient zero. Uh, so looking at the current UFO landscape, What do you think, you know, what do you think the 2026 version is?

55:07 Speaker 1: Man, I mean, it's so much, yeah, it's so much more scaled up now where, like, everyone's the.

55:13 Speaker 4: Benowitz, in a way.

55:15 Speaker 2: You know what I mean?

55:17 Speaker 1: We're all being, this is all, like, you know, it dips into a little conspiracy theory, but we're all being, like, led down this path to. To believe things in a certain way about certain stuff. And it's like social engineering in a way. You're on the internet, you're gonna be exposed to this stuff. So yeah, I think that's probably pretty accurate.

55:44 Speaker 4: I don't know.

55:44 Speaker 2: Yeah, do you think that they don't even have to work as hard anymore maybe?

55:50 Speaker 1: Yeah, you just let the other people just run out, like they call the useful idiot. They just let this person go off and do their thing and.

56:02 Speaker 4: Preach the gospel, so to speak.

56:05 Speaker 2: Do you think that they're still trapping people like they did with Bill Moore?

56:12 Speaker 4: I think it's very possible.

56:14 Speaker 1: I mean, if that stuff's not happening, maybe it's not happening as often, but I think it's more left to people on a computer or on a laptop or whatever to disseminating information or even just bots these days. But there's probably hands-on stuff that are still ensnaring people, I'm sure.

56:36 Speaker 2: Because it's this idea of like a walled garden, right?

56:38 Speaker 4: The walled garden, sure.

56:41 Speaker 2: The walled garden of like, and you can see it happening right now in the UFO community.

56:48 Speaker 3: It's like the Gary Nolans and, you know, this.

56:52 Speaker 4: Oh, the Bledsoes.

56:55 Speaker 2: You said it!

56:58 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, that's totally.

57:01 Speaker 1: Like, my brother was who doesn't follow this stuff at all. He's like, hey, there's a new prophecy. And I'm like, oh, man, come on.

57:08 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know. I know. I actually just.

57:12 Speaker 3: Funny enough, I just lost a guest.

57:14 Speaker 2: I lost a bunch of guests because I made a comment about it.

57:21 Speaker 4: Oh, I mean... You know, people have an open mind to this stuff.

57:28 Speaker 2: On the day of your prediction, you launch a fucking... Was it a meme coin or something? It's a 501c3 nonprofit, right? That's right.

57:44 Speaker 3: Donating 10 grand, you get to be a founding angel.

57:49 Speaker 4: Come on.

57:50 Speaker 2: Like, dude, are you kidding me?

57:54 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's definitely in the kook category.

57:58 Speaker 2: Right. And that's why I love the title Saucers, Spooks, and Kooks because you really do have this.

58:11 Speaker 4: The dichotomy of it.

58:13 Speaker 2: The dichotomy of it is really, really interesting. Again, I probably sound all over the place right now, but there's a reason I swear and it's because most people I think most of you guys know the Benowitz story and I don't want to give too.

58:34 Speaker 3: Much away from the film quickly where can people.

58:39 Speaker 1: Watch it well you could go right now we actually have a kickstarter happening right now to get a.

58:46 Speaker 4: Blu-ray produced of the film you can go stream it right now.

58:49 Speaker 2: But I would really oh it is streaming.

58:51 Speaker 1: Now Yeah, you can stream it on VHX, saucerspooksandcooks.vhx.tv.

58:58 Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

58:59 Speaker 3: Okay, links for that will all be in the description, guys.

59:04 Speaker 2: You've got to support independent creators like this who are doing really good. great work. I wanted to talk... Before we get into some of the larger topics, I wanted to give you a couple things.

59:21 Speaker 3: As far as the recreations, they.

59:30 Speaker 2: When I say recreation, I mean when he's talking to Tal.

59:39 Speaker 4: Yeah.

59:41 Speaker 2: It's a little bit over the top.

59:44 Speaker 1: Sure.

59:45 Speaker 2: But I loved it. I loved it. I loved it.

59:48 Speaker 4: I was trying to do those old 80s stuff.

59:54 Speaker 3: I literally did recreations, A +, and I was dying laughing.

1:00:00 Speaker 3: But the artist renditions, they were literally fantastic.

1:00:05 Speaker 4: That's so cool, man.

1:00:07 Speaker 2: The way that you guys did the actual cartoon recreations, those were top of the line. The story, I gave an A. Intrigue, I gave a B +. Connection to the larger picture, I gave an A. And sheer entertainment value, I gave it a B +. So that's what led me to my score of like 8.8. Oh, cool. That's how I break it down.

1:00:35 Speaker 4: I love your score system. That sounds really thought out.

1:00:38 Speaker 1: It is.

1:00:39 Speaker 2: You know, it is.

1:00:40 Speaker 3: I take movies very, very seriously.

1:00:43 Speaker 2: But... I still can't get over the.

1:00:51 Speaker 2: There's the... There's the one recreation. Again, it's the tout thing. It just... I don't even know. I don't know if I should say it. But there's... Okay. If you guys watch the film, you'll know exactly the scene I'm talking about. It's so funny that I laughed so hard, but I was like, this... I mean, it conveyed the thing. It conveyed exactly what I needed it to. So.

1:01:26 Speaker 3: What do you think about this Tal guy?

1:01:30 Speaker 4: Well, yeah, he's in the book.

1:01:32 Speaker 2: Tal Levesque.

1:01:33 Speaker 4: Yeah, Tal Levesque.

1:01:34 Speaker 1: Adam has this encounter with him because Tal happens to move in like a nearby town to Adam. And so he's like, hey, maybe we should get together and talk. And so they have this breakfast where Tal Levesque is just, you know, unloading all of this crazy nonsense onto Adam for like three hours.

1:01:54 Speaker 4: And Adam's brain is just like fried.

1:01:56 Speaker 1: From like underground alien based stuff and tunnels under San Francisco and just whatever, you know, just bizarre stuff.

1:02:03 Speaker 4: And so he keeps in contact with Tao for many years after this breakfast and Tao kind of eventually starts opening it up is like, I basically created the Dulce myth, you know?

1:02:18 Speaker 2: Right.

1:02:19 Speaker 4: And there wouldn't be.

1:02:20 Speaker 1: All of the, you know, like the X-Files probably wouldn't be what it is without the Dulce myth. And, you know, so many Hollywood films, like, um, do you remember that Arnold Schwarzenegger one with the, the, the sixth day I think is called or something.

1:02:35 Speaker 2: No. Hey, anyway, there was a bunch of them. Yeah. There's just anything that had MJ.

1:02:44 Speaker 4: 12 dark skies.

1:02:46 Speaker 2: Yeah. By the way. Um, next month I have, um, um, Brent Friedman and, uh, Oh my God. Why am I drawing a blank right now? Uh, fuck. Oh my God.

1:03:04 Speaker 4: That's okay. It wasn't the creators of dark skies.

1:03:07 Speaker 2: Or creators of dark skies.

1:03:08 Speaker 4: Yeah.

1:03:08 Speaker 2: Bryce Abel. Thank you. Um, so Bryce Abel's coming in studio, uh, and then Brent, Brent I'll be having on. Um, but, um, Yeah, so Dark Skies, X-Files, I mean, you name it. Anything that had MJ-12 or, you know, anything to do with, like, the Roswell cover-up or that was influenced by this core story of Benowitz.

1:03:39 Speaker 1: Right, which Tal really took and made it his own with, like, the Dulce firefight and, like, really blew it up into this really big fictional thing, which... It was fun stuff to read and think about and watch all of the shows about it.

1:03:54 Speaker 4: I loved it.

1:03:58 Speaker 2: That's how the best... I'm almost convinced that people love a good story way more than they care to find out if it's the truth.

1:04:11 Speaker 1: Yes. I've heard people... I've read things on Twitter. It was like, I don't care if Bob Lasora's story is bunk. I just love the story and I believe it. It's just like, well, that's a really crazy, you know, way to think about it.

1:04:25 Speaker 4: But OK.

1:04:27 Speaker 2: So, again, Lear comes into this whole thing and Lear has got a friend named Bob Lazar.

1:04:34 Speaker 3: And then Bob Lazar.

1:04:36 Speaker 2: Ends up coming out as a Area 51 whistleblower, which also can be technically can be traced all the way back to the Benowitz story.

1:04:48 Speaker 4: It's true. It's true. You can.

1:04:50 Speaker 1: And he even picks up some of the MJ-12 rhetoric, too, which was originally disinformation that was given to Paul Benowitz. Yeah.

1:04:59 Speaker 3: And how does it end up at Jamie Shandera's house?

1:05:03 Speaker 1: Well, that's a really good question. We don't really know who sent it. I think the return address was a P.O. box, maybe in Albuquerque.

1:05:12 Speaker 4: I can't remember. Right.

1:05:14 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's very odd how he he gets these papers and, uh, he, you know, he's the one that's going to be making the documentary with more, which eventually turns into UFO coverup live.

1:05:26 Speaker 4: I don't know if you want to get into that.

1:05:27 Speaker 2: I really do. I really do. Um, tell what, tell me what UFO coverup live exclamation. Yeah.

1:05:37 Speaker 1: Well, it was the, uh, L I think the, production company was called LMS and they had, uh, done the Al Cabone's vaults, which was.

1:05:46 Speaker 3: The one where they opened it and nothing was there.

1:05:49 Speaker 4: Yeah. Big flop.

1:05:53 Speaker 1: So, uh, they, that was their, their baby before this, but then they wanted to do this big UFO reveal show. It was going to be breaking new ground in on the subject. And, uh, It was just kind of a nightmare. I spoke to the producer, Tracy Torme, who was on this, and he was just saying, you know, like the producer, the main producer wanted people reading from cue cards. So everything was scripted, but it was live and it just got out of hand. And so Bill Moore comes in and like has a lot of his information that he's taken from Benowitz and Richard Doty appears on the show as, you know.

1:06:35 Speaker 4: His face is all blacked out as Falcon.

1:06:38 Speaker 1: And so you have the same characters like promoting these stories, which at the time was, you know, I don't think it probably reached too many people because the the story, you know, UFOs were still very stigmatized back in those days, but you know, it was there for a purpose, I think serving something larger, which we go into in the film. So is that a good breakdown for you?

1:07:05 Speaker 4: It is.

1:07:08 Speaker 2: And the, the, cause the producer, they kind of bring him in the same way and they almost do to him, aversion of what they do to Benowitz.

1:07:22 Speaker 4: Absolutely. Yeah. You nailed that.

1:07:25 Speaker 2: Yeah. Um, and they make him extremely paranoid. Um, and you see this kind of, this theme kind of take, take center stage in the fact that it's a live show, but he ends up making it super scripted and.

1:07:44 Speaker 1: Um, Yes, supposedly they took him to an island where there were these people, you know, like shadow guys to have a meeting with him and like, you need to reveal this, don't reveal this.

1:07:56 Speaker 4: And he gets super paranoid about it.

1:07:59 Speaker 2: Yeah.

1:07:59 Speaker 1: Yeah.

1:08:00 Speaker 4: So that's the genesis of that.

1:08:02 Speaker 2: Again, this very, very brilliant deception where you don't necessarily, like, essentially it's like this big orchestrated Truman show.

1:08:15 Speaker 4: Right?

1:08:15 Speaker 1: Right.

1:08:17 Speaker 3: Where everyone else knows what's going on except you.

1:08:21 Speaker 2: Like you being the producer from the show, Benowitz, like whoever's the target, right?

1:08:30 Speaker 3: That's who the you is in this scenario.

1:08:32 Speaker 2: But where everything around you is essentially orchestrated to make you feel like you're either important or Right. You're either.

1:08:44 Speaker 3: And that's how they get you.

1:08:46 Speaker 1: You know the truth and you're revealing too much or, you know, like really start messing with your head.

1:08:52 Speaker 2: They make you feel like you are on to the biggest story in human history. because arguably if it's true, you are right. So I think that's how they really hook these people is there is a, there's a line in the sand on this thing that, because if it's true, it's the, changes history right but if it's.

1:09:22 Speaker 3: Not true.

1:09:25 Speaker 2: Your reputation is just just essentially cut up right um so i think you can.

1:09:35 Speaker 1: See this like in in it's perfectly fictionalized too in like tv shows and movies like the independent state uh the the randy what's his name randy quaid character he's like in in the winnebago and he's a crazy kooky conspiracy guy.

1:09:55 Speaker 2: Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah but he's actually on.

1:09:57 Speaker 1: To the truth you know it is real in the film you know so it's just like that perfect.

1:10:03 Speaker 2: Actually sir uh we do have a place like you.

1:10:07 Speaker 4: Know you mean area 51 yeah uh that's not.

1:10:10 Speaker 2: Exactly correct yes exactly right i love that movie uh independence day but um yeah uh The thing I've always wondered about is all misinformation and disinformation does have a little bit of truth to it. Sure, that's how it works.

1:10:36 Speaker 3: With this, what do you think the little bit of truth might be?

1:10:41 Speaker 1: I think probably the little truth is, I think Bill Moore even says it in his MUFON speech, it's like, you know, this was not UFO alien technology, but probably most likely it was just government testing craft, you know?

1:10:57 Speaker 4: And I think that's the shred of truth that.

1:11:01 Speaker 2: Kind of was in there.

1:11:03 Speaker 4: Sure.

1:11:04 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's tough.

1:11:06 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah.

1:11:08 Speaker 3: Have you ever heard of MyLabs?

1:11:11 Speaker 4: Sure, yeah.

1:11:14 Speaker 2: Do you think that that might be... there might be actually something to this where with the cattle mutilations and, you know, all of it that our government may actually be staging these things.

1:11:32 Speaker 1: It's a really scary, it's one of the scarier conspiracy theories to me that the government would do this to people. But the guy who really made that popular, Martin Cannon, do you know him?

1:11:47 Speaker 3: I do, but I'm not well-versed.

1:11:52 Speaker 1: Okay, so he wrote The Controllers, which basically lays out the MyLabs theory. And he later kind of came out and said, no, this is all fake. I made it all up. But he's a super paranoid guy too, so who knows really what the story is. Was someone messing with him? Did he know other stuff? Right. That he shouldn't have said or, you know, so there's a there's a really gray area with the whole my labs thing in general. But to to really pin down and say, you know, the government is definitely doing this stuff like I have no clue.

1:12:32 Speaker 4: I hope not.

1:12:33 Speaker 1: You know, like taking abducting people and doing experiments on them. It's really dark stuff. And I can only hope that that's not happening.

1:12:43 Speaker 2: Well, you know, um. Part of me doesn't even know if they're doing this stuff to them, or are they using.

1:12:53 Speaker 3: some sort of directed energy or.

1:12:57 Speaker 2: Like some sort of trickery to make the person like think they've been probed or have a, you know what I mean? Like where they're.

1:13:07 Speaker 4: I think that possibility is absolutely there.

1:13:10 Speaker 2: Right.

1:13:11 Speaker 4: Yeah.

1:13:11 Speaker 1: For them to be thinking, you know, like seeing something hallucinating with microwaves getting beamed into their head and I'm not a scientist or anything, but it seems plausible.

1:13:24 Speaker 2: Do you know that we have lasers that if you cross the laser, you will hear an audible tone. You'll hear words.

1:13:39 Speaker 1: Sure.

1:13:39 Speaker 2: It will say, warning, I have an Area 51 sign, like a legitimate from Area 51.

1:13:45 Speaker 1: Oh, damn. Yeah.

1:13:49 Speaker 2: I won't say how I got it, but.

1:13:51 Speaker 4: Yeah, you better not.

1:13:53 Speaker 2: But, you know, warning, restricted area. It is unlawful to enter this area without permission of the installation commander, section 21. So you'll cross this laser and you will hear that start being read to you. Like, do not go further.

1:14:10 Speaker 1: So.

1:14:11 Speaker 4: Yeah.

1:14:12 Speaker 1: I think I have a clip of that in the film of like, they're like projecting these voices over like little balls of light.

1:14:20 Speaker 2: Right. So that's what I always wondered, like, could the, you know, what was being seen inside of Benowitz's house? You know, again, this is ground zero for all of this experimentational stuff, right? You know, let me just diverge.

1:14:38 Speaker 4: For a second. Please.

1:14:41 Speaker 1: When I was going through and making the film, I found this documentary called The Star Wars in Iraq, which was an Italian film made in the early days of the Iraqi war. with like, uh, maybe it was like 2005 or something. And they, these filmmakers come upon this case of a busload of people that were fried from the inside. They were like burned from the inside, like a whole bus full of people. And they didn't know what was, what had caused it. They went to all of the families who the people were in the bus, all their families and tried to figure out what was happening.

1:15:22 Speaker 1: No one could figure it out. And then, um, they went to these experts that are, you know, in like directed energy weapons. And, and this is like, they were saying, this is totally plausible for these people to have been burned.

1:15:37 Speaker 4: You know? And it was just like this test that would just be lost in, in wartime.

1:15:42 Speaker 2: You know?

1:15:42 Speaker 1: Right.

1:15:43 Speaker 2: High energy microwave, right?

1:15:45 Speaker 4: Absolutely.

1:15:45 Speaker 1: Yeah.

1:15:46 Speaker 2: What do microwaves do is, is they heat things from the inside outward. Right. And it sounds like, you.

1:15:52 Speaker 1: Know, And this is a well-documented case and it's kind of not speculated too much. So I think that's a good place to like jump off from, you know?

1:16:02 Speaker 2: Right. Right. Right. And, uh, kind of going back to cash Landrum, that, what do you make of that? Because there there's way too much real.

1:16:16 Speaker 1: Yeah.

1:16:17 Speaker 2: Right. Like, the physical effects right the helicopters right the amount of helicopters around it.

1:16:31 Speaker 3: Right just and then you know Betty.

1:16:38 Speaker 2: I mean they kind of live miserable lives after that they're the only ones who take the government to court all the way it ends up getting dismissed because of you know they just can't you know they probably took the judge into a room and were like listen you're touching on national security shut this down right and that's all they have to do they did get.

1:17:02 Speaker 4: Some money out of it I think though right like a settlement.

1:17:06 Speaker 2: I can't remember I don't think so because.

1:17:10 Speaker 3: Any money given to them would be almost an admission.

1:17:13 Speaker 1: Right yeah good point I don't remember the story Unless.

1:17:18 Speaker 2: You know, just an envelope of money appeared in their mailbox one day. I don't know. But Cash Landrum, I think, is one of the cases that I think actually happened. Like, 100%. Something happened. Like, the details are just, they're too spot on. Talk about, you know, physical effects. Like, just the, like, when she talks about how she grabs the handle of the car and goes, oh, right? Like it's hot to the touch. And then she has to use her, like her garment to.

1:17:58 Speaker 4: Open the door. It's an interesting detail, yeah.

1:18:01 Speaker 2: Those are those details that liars rarely can insert properly.

1:18:09 Speaker 4: You have to be a good one, yeah.

1:18:11 Speaker 2: And, you know, the whole Jesus part of it, that they thought this was Jesus until, of course, Apache start, you know, rolling up with it. Right. Of course. But they really held a grudge against the government because they were convinced that this was some sort of, you know, government exercise. And, you know, the government keeps saying, no, we never had helicopters. They end up finding out, yes, they actually did. and you know yeah.

1:18:48 Speaker 1: It's the case that you know Richard Doty got Linda Moulton Howell to you know stop doing the story and then it surfaces in UFO Cover Up Live where Doty gets to tell his story of what happened which he says you know it was an alien craft powered you know powered by alien technology but it was a human driving and so he was like you know, couldn't steer it right or something.

1:19:12 Speaker 4: I think that's what he said in UFO coverup live.

1:19:15 Speaker 1: Yeah.

1:19:15 Speaker 2: It was like retrofitted with nuclear, with nuclear stuff.

1:19:19 Speaker 4: Right.

1:19:20 Speaker 2: Um, and, and, and, and, uh, yeah, I mean, it's, it's this big diamond shaped craft and, uh, it's got, it's got, uh, the, and that's what always sounded not alien to me is the, the flames shooting out in the bottom. Yeah.

1:19:39 Speaker 1: Yeah.

1:19:40 Speaker 4: It's like, it would be a site for sure.

1:19:42 Speaker 2: Hell yeah. It would be a site, but, um, kind of the opposite of what you hear in the UFO world where usually the crafts are silent. They don't, they don't like, they don't affect the environment around them. Um, unless they're crashing or landing, they don't like break trees and shit. Um, but that, yeah, that case always really like that. The cash Landrum case is something that sticks out to me. Um, But let's talk about Bill Moore and the 89, uh, move on symposium where he comes out.

1:20:21 Speaker 3: Why, why do you think he finally came out?

1:20:25 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, there are, I think he probably kind of just wanted to, cause a lot of the stories.

1:20:32 Speaker 4: Were his, in my opinion.

1:20:35 Speaker 1: And I, and there was all of these other people like starting to run with it, like Linda and John Lear, Bill Cooper.

1:20:42 Speaker 4: Like all of these people. And so, you know, just pull the rug out from under and just, you know, head out.

1:20:48 Speaker 1: But it's, there's a, there, Chris Lambright, who's in the film has an interesting theory is that he was actually a lot more involved than you think. And that, outing himself just as a disinformation agent, you know, recruited by Doty gives him an out that he was actually more like, no, he was actually more an agent, like an agent that was like part of this larger plan.

1:21:20 Speaker 4: But that was, that's Lambright's theory, but.

1:21:23 Speaker 2: Okay.

1:21:24 Speaker 1: I'm not too sure about that, but yeah, he's definitely there at the beginning and yeah. So it kind of, lines up in some places.

1:21:34 Speaker 2: What would you say the cautionary tale, like if you could sum it up, right?

1:21:42 Speaker 4: Sure, yeah.

1:21:43 Speaker 2: Sum up like the thesis of the film. What is the thesis of the film? What's the cautionary tale that you're warning against?

1:21:53 Speaker 1: We're steeped in conspiracy culture now in 2026 at a very strange time in the history of America and the cautionary tale would just be, you know, look at Benowitz, look how he became paranoid and at the edge of, at the brink of sanity, basically, and just really take a skeptical approach to what you're seeing online with anything from Joe Rogan to the weird, you know, podcasts you want to pay attention to about interdimensional aliens, just all, like really take it with a grounded.

1:22:35 Speaker 4: Approach, I would say.

1:22:37 Speaker 2: Yeah. So just don't believe, don't, don't, don't take every, anything at face value.

1:22:48 Speaker 1: And don't repeat stuff as if it's fact, you know, I think that was a big part of this too, is how it evolved is like someone was like, Oh, well he said this and, he's got to know because he's ex CIA or something, you know, like on some of these podcasts, they'll bring in a CIA guy. And it's like, this is the guy that you don't want to pay attention to.

1:23:07 Speaker 4: Right.

1:23:09 Speaker 3: It's the counter op. It's, it's the, you know, that really always bothered me.

1:23:18 Speaker 2: Especially with guys like Elizondo who have, by the way, never been quiet about the fact that they are counter intelligence agents.

1:23:34 Speaker 4: That's their job.

1:23:35 Speaker 2: Like Elizondo says it. I don't know how many times he says it, but he says it all the time where he's like, I'm a counter Intel guy.

1:23:44 Speaker 3: I'm not a UFO guy.

1:23:45 Speaker 2: I was asked to bring my talents or my, my, my expertise to the UFO community. What does that say to you?

1:23:55 Speaker 4: That says, uh, take it with a grain of salt.

1:23:57 Speaker 1: You can, you can just enjoy the entertainment value, but take it with a grain of salt.

1:24:04 Speaker 2: Exactly. So, um, you know, part, part of me wonders like back to that sighting that I had.

1:24:17 Speaker 4: Oh yeah.

1:24:18 Speaker 2: Because I know what I saw. I never said it was alien, but I know something's out there.

1:24:29 Speaker 1: Right.

1:24:29 Speaker 2: Right.

1:24:30 Speaker 3: So like, is this whole story bullshit or.

1:24:36 Speaker 4: Yeah.

1:24:36 Speaker 1: I think that's the most complicated question. It's like, there's definitely aspects that are bullshit. You know, there's like a huge part of it. That's probably just totally bunk.

1:24:47 Speaker 2: Right.

1:24:47 Speaker 1: But maybe there is that little kernel of truth, you know, like what you saw, like, you know, your experiences, you know?

1:24:55 Speaker 2: Um, I mean, what's your gauge on it? Because, I mean, diving into something like this where it's like, you know, everyone's bullshit and everyone's trading their soul for access, that never comes, by the way.

1:25:11 Speaker 3: It never comes.

1:25:13 Speaker 2: Whether it's the case of Jamie Shandara or Bill Moore or the guys that made UFOs past, present, and future. Oh, right.

1:25:26 Speaker 3: Like the deliverable never gets delivered.

1:25:30 Speaker 2: Right. And even now, this day, the the the information, it's always like dangled like a carrot. And I just wonder, you know, have I been chasing a lie?

1:25:46 Speaker 1: Well.

1:25:48 Speaker 4: Well.

1:25:50 Speaker 1: You know, you've had your personal experience and that is worth something more than anything you'll find on the.

1:25:56 Speaker 4: Internet, I think.

1:25:57 Speaker 1: So maybe sometimes you're chasing lies, but I think there is something to, you know, your personal experience that you had that that's worth pursuing.

1:26:08 Speaker 4: So.

1:26:09 Speaker 3: Well, absolutely. Like we said at the top of the show, I don't, I, this, it's not black and white.

1:26:16 Speaker 4: Right.

1:26:18 Speaker 3: But, you know, It really.

1:26:21 Speaker 2: Messes with me, the fact that a lot of the stories that are regurgitated as the bedrock of UFO lore can be traced back to this whole disinformation campaign coming from the Air Force. Up until the Tic Tac in 2014, which ends up then coming out. What I love that you included, I thought you guys were just doing Benowitz, but you brought it to modern day.

1:26:59 Speaker 4: I tried, yeah.

1:27:00 Speaker 3: Commander Fravor, the Tic Tac. Let's talk about that.

1:27:05 Speaker 2: Do you think the Tic Tac and the Fravor case, do you think that that is some modern day disinformation?

1:27:20 Speaker 1: I'm pretty certain that that probably is like an orchestrated.

1:27:25 Speaker 4: Thing that's happening or that happened.

1:27:29 Speaker 1: I think Mark Pilkington in the film, he sets up the whole idea of how that was released originally was Serpo was kind of like the jumping off point to get people interested in UFOs again, because no one was interested in UFOs in the early 2000s. Then the Serpo thing happens. There's interest around that. They start a forum about Serpo, but then it starts branching out into these other UFO cases. And then that's where that footage first turns up, is on this forum. And people just kind of really didn't think much of it at the time because it's not really much to look at, really.

1:28:06 Speaker 1: Right.

1:28:07 Speaker 3: But once it comes out from Elizondo in the New York Times, right?

1:28:11 Speaker 1: That's when it starts catching real heat. I mean, it's the New York Times, so... there's got to be something to it, right?

1:28:17 Speaker 4: Right.

1:28:18 Speaker 3: Even though they got the program name wrong.

1:28:21 Speaker 2: Yes.

1:28:22 Speaker 4: Yeah. A lot of that article was bunk.

1:28:25 Speaker 2: Totally. Yeah. And they never, what really fucks me up, Politico wrote a tandem article, right? So Brian Bender at Politico, and then Leslie Keen, Ralph Blumenthal, and Elaine Cooper, they have the New York Times part of it. So they run their story. Bender runs his story in Politico the same day. Obviously, more people remember the Times, which makes sense. But Bender is the only person who corrects the record and says, no, no, no, no. We got a bunch of shit wrong. It wasn't a tip that got the money.

1:29:12 Speaker 2: It was actually all SAP who got the money. The advanced weapons systems application program. And guess what they were doing and where they operated from.

1:29:25 Speaker 3: Good old skin Walker ranch, baby.

1:29:30 Speaker 2: And that's where you get guys like, Jim Likatsky, who see this thing in the corner. What does that sound like to you? Maybe what Paul Benowitz saw in his home?

1:29:43 Speaker 4: I don't know that story. That's interesting.

1:29:46 Speaker 2: Yeah, this whole OSAP was birthed because of Likatsky seeing something at Skinwalker Ranch.

1:29:55 Speaker 4: Oh, that incident, yes.

1:29:57 Speaker 2: Yeah, you had it in the film.

1:29:59 Speaker 4: Yes.

1:30:00 Speaker 2: So it's like the... It's like the... The morphine... Yes.

1:30:05 Speaker 4: Mobius strip.

1:30:06 Speaker 3: Mobius strip that morphed, right?

1:30:08 Speaker 2: Right. And Likatsky's DIA, Defense Intelligence Agency, and he's gone on to write a bunch of books.

1:30:18 Speaker 3: One says that the U.S.

1:30:20 Speaker 2: Government breached the whole of a UFO. And that Bigelow was set to retrieve that craft from Lockheed.

1:30:31 Speaker 3: But someone stepped in and blocked the transfer.

1:30:36 Speaker 4: Oh, man. Right? Can't get at the truth again.

1:30:39 Speaker 2: Again, just can't get at the truth. The truth is just like it's just out of reach, right?

1:30:45 Speaker 4: Right.

1:30:46 Speaker 2: So, yeah. That's why, like, when I watched this movie, for me, knowing a lot of the UFO lore, my head just started going. Right?

1:30:58 Speaker 3: And I'm connecting dots.

1:31:00 Speaker 2: And like I said, even this episode might sound like a little all over the place because I.

1:31:06 Speaker 3: Think this movie, I.

1:31:11 Speaker 2: Will now recommend this film as required viewing.

1:31:16 Speaker 4: Oh, that's awesome, man. Thank you.

1:31:18 Speaker 2: To anyone entering the community because you need to know how and what lengths people are willing to go to cover something up or to throw you off their scent or to tell you exactly what you want to hear, promise you access as long as you trade your soul

1:31:47 Speaker 2: and do their bidding. And far too many people are doing that. the bidding of the people that the whole community has been screaming, has been lying to them for 90 years. And turns out the only people who can say that we're not alone and that's disclosure are the very entities that have lied for 90 years.

1:32:13 Speaker 4: Right, right.

1:32:14 Speaker 3: How does that make sense?

1:32:17 Speaker 1: It doesn't.

1:32:17 Speaker 2: It doesn't.

1:32:20 Speaker 1: Right?

1:32:21 Speaker 2: Yeah. Like the only person that they'll accept coming out and saying that aliens are here or whatever's here is the president of the United States. Right?

1:32:32 Speaker 4: Right, right.

1:32:34 Speaker 3: So saying the executive branch, basically.

1:32:36 Speaker 2: I'm sorry. The government has lied to us for 90 years, but the only person who can tell us that the lie was a lie is the liar? It's like a....

1:32:51 Speaker 1: A paradox that's not going to be resolved no matter what, unless the aliens are like knocking.

1:32:56 Speaker 4: At your door.

1:32:57 Speaker 2: So, yeah. Well, you know, I think a lot of people, a lot, a lot of people now they're looking towards like, maybe it isn't about looking up, but looking in.

1:33:15 Speaker 1: Right.

1:33:16 Speaker 2: Right.

1:33:17 Speaker 3: So in consciousness.

1:33:19 Speaker 4: And, um, I think there's something to be said for that. Me too.

1:33:23 Speaker 3: Me too. What do you think consciousness is?

1:33:28 Speaker 4: Man, it's so freaky, isn't it? That's all we know. That's all we have.

1:33:33 Speaker 3: It's the hardest question.

1:33:34 Speaker 4: Yeah.

1:33:35 Speaker 1: I've been thinking about it my whole life. What do you think it is? I really have no answers other than it's.

1:33:43 Speaker 4: God. I think Philip K.

1:33:46 Speaker 1: Dick, I read somewhere in maybe one of his articles that he was saying, it's kind of more like a radio wave that we're like tuned into.

1:33:54 Speaker 4: I like that.

1:33:57 Speaker 1: Yeah. I really liked that when he was, he was like, you know, but the radio is unplugged and it's just us and we're like picking up these, whatever this is that we're experiencing.

1:34:09 Speaker 2: But you can also take a bat and you can smash up the radio.

1:34:14 Speaker 1: Hmm.

1:34:16 Speaker 3: But the signal still comes through.

1:34:18 Speaker 4: Sure. Or yeah, the signal is still out there. Yeah.

1:34:21 Speaker 3: So like we die, but we're just a receiver.

1:34:26 Speaker 1: Right.

1:34:26 Speaker 2: Yeah.

1:34:26 Speaker 4: Like a receiver. Exactly.

1:34:28 Speaker 2: Like, so, so I can break the boom box up into a billion pieces, but you know, my, my, my, my radio frequency, um, it's still, it's still there. Right. like 94.7, right? It's still coming through. It's just, I just can't, I no longer, you know, am receiving that broadcast, right?

1:34:57 Speaker 4: There's a really great idea. Have you ever heard of animism?

1:35:04 Speaker 2: No.

1:35:05 Speaker 1: Well, animism is like one of the oldest forms of spirituality, I guess. It's like, everything is really big in Japan, I know, and still even to this day, but early, early humans thought like everything was alive. Like there's a spirit in the tree. There's a spirit in the rock. You, you hear about this in native America. Oh yeah. And so there's another theory that kind of sits on top of this called panpsychism, which is that everything has an ambient consciousness and that the more complex the creature, the more consciousness it can harness.

1:35:48 Speaker 4: Right.

1:35:51 Speaker 1: It's hard to explain, but so everything is conscious, basically, just at this ambient level. And then the human, you know, as far as we know is the most evolved person to take this consciousness. And just because we're social creatures that we're able to talk about it.

1:36:13 Speaker 2: Yeah.

1:36:13 Speaker 1: Maybe, maybe dolphins or octopus have that same level. We just don't know or something.

1:36:19 Speaker 4: You know, it's like, it's such a freaky thing to think about.

1:36:23 Speaker 2: No, it is. It really, really, really is because if that's the case, right.

1:36:30 Speaker 3: And that's what's always bothered me is like this, right?

1:36:36 Speaker 4: This. Okay.

1:36:38 Speaker 2: The atoms that make this thing up, same ones that make me up.

1:36:43 Speaker 4: Exactly. Yeah.

1:36:44 Speaker 2: So what's the difference? It's that I grow this fucking big gray thing inside my skull. Right. That's evolved to be self aware. And that is the difference is, You and I can think about our own death.

1:37:04 Speaker 1: And it's not to say that a dolphin couldn't contemplate their death or think about that, but they just can't tell us that.

1:37:13 Speaker 2: Yeah.

1:37:14 Speaker 3: And I'm not so sure that we're not going to get there soon.

1:37:16 Speaker 4: Maybe.

1:37:17 Speaker 2: I don't know.

1:37:19 Speaker 3: What do you think about artificial intelligence?

1:37:22 Speaker 2: Oh, dude.

1:37:23 Speaker 1: I have such mixed feelings about it because I'm an artist being put out of work by it Um, but at the same time, it's, it's pretty amazing. I'm not going to go say it's going to be conscious, but it's a very interesting question to think about for sure. I mean, LLMs, I mean, I think there's probably, we're really far away. LLMs are really far away from being, having like an internal.

1:37:54 Speaker 4: Experience, but, um, I don't know. Maybe it could be there in the future.

1:38:00 Speaker 3: So I am not so sure, man.

1:38:02 Speaker 1: Yeah.

1:38:03 Speaker 4: Yeah. I'm not, I'm not sure either.

1:38:05 Speaker 2: I'm dude, you have, you have Sam Altman, you have the CEO of Anthropic. You got, you got guys like, um, what's his name? Uh, Elon Musk. You got all those guys saying, that there's like a a huge percentage that ai uh destroys humanity.

1:38:39 Speaker 1: Well it's anti-life it's the anti-life equation if you want to take it back.

1:38:43 Speaker 2: To dark side Oh, fuck yeah.

1:38:48 Speaker 4: I've been thinking about that a lot.

1:38:51 Speaker 2: Let's go.

1:38:52 Speaker 4: Yeah, dude.

1:38:53 Speaker 3: Dark sides.

1:38:54 Speaker 2: The bell's been rung. Let's go.

1:38:56 Speaker 1: Oh, man.

1:38:59 Speaker 2: But how is it?

1:39:05 Speaker 3: And here's a really weird story, right?

1:39:07 Speaker 4: Okay.

1:39:09 Speaker 3: So do you know who Peter Thiel is?

1:39:12 Speaker 4: Of course, yeah.

1:39:13 Speaker 1: Yeah.

1:39:13 Speaker 2: Well, yeah.

1:39:14 Speaker 3: Famously giving speeches on the antichrist.

1:39:18 Speaker 2: Um, really odd, uh, shit there, but, um, nothing, nothing to see there folks, but the Pope came out and said, guys, I think we need to slow down on this AI thing. Right.

1:39:35 Speaker 3: Peter Thiel goes, no, the Pope is the antichrist.

1:39:41 Speaker 2: The antichrist is going to show up and, and, You know,

1:39:47 Speaker 2: like he essentially called out the Pope and was like, you might be the Antichrist. He's halting progression.

1:39:53 Speaker 4: Right, right.

1:39:54 Speaker 2: You know, and it's like, no, I'm pretty sure I know what the Antichrist is. The Antichrist comes with the solution. You're the fucking Antichrist, you psycho. The Pope is the one who's like, guys.

1:40:09 Speaker 1: Right.

1:40:10 Speaker 4: Hey, like maybe we should take it easy.

1:40:13 Speaker 2: Maybe we should like crawl before we run off the cliff.

1:40:20 Speaker 1: I think I don't think Peter Till is really like a true believer of that shit. I think he's using religion to bring in people, you know, and it works for a lot of folks, I think. Maybe he really does believe people are the Antichrist, but I think it's a scapegoat mechanism, which he understands very well.

1:40:41 Speaker 2: He does.

1:40:42 Speaker 3: I mean, he's part of, like, Bilderberg, right?

1:40:47 Speaker 4: He is, yeah, that's right.

1:40:51 Speaker 2: And this idea that, you know, like, if you want to get to the real, like, dark.

1:41:00 Speaker 3: Evil that goes on in the world.

1:41:02 Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Look no further, right?

1:41:06 Speaker 4: Look no further.

1:41:07 Speaker 1: Yeah, dude.

1:41:08 Speaker 2: Look no further.

1:41:09 Speaker 4: We can agree on that for sure.

1:41:11 Speaker 2: So, you know, you can't, I just don't know, like, I don't know that, did you know that artificial intelligence, that computers, do you know what they benefit from? A

1:41:30 Speaker 2: warmer temperature. Oh, yeah.

1:41:35 Speaker 4: I don't know about this. Tell me about it.

1:41:37 Speaker 2: Yeah, so... Okay, so these data centers, right?

1:41:40 Speaker 1: Right.

1:41:43 Speaker 2: They need to be constantly cooled, right?

1:41:46 Speaker 3: With our water.

1:41:48 Speaker 2: Sure. And they're screwing farmers over. I mean, you just look. But computers actually do benefit from a warmer climate, right?

1:41:57 Speaker 4: How so?

1:41:59 Speaker 2: Something to do with the computing, right? Yeah, I mean, I'm not.

1:42:04 Speaker 1: Oh, because maybe the resistance is better when it's warmer?

1:42:08 Speaker 4: Yeah. Okay, sure.

1:42:09 Speaker 2: Some to that effect, right?

1:42:11 Speaker 4: Okay. I can deal with that, sure.

1:42:14 Speaker 2: What's to say that DARPA, if LLMs like OpenAI, if that's what the public is getting right now, we're told DARPA is 20, 30, 40 years ahead of that.

1:42:31 Speaker 4: Could be. Very well could be.

1:42:33 Speaker 2: So how do we know they don't have some AI god that they've created by accident?

1:42:39 Speaker 4: Right.

1:42:40 Speaker 2: And it is sentient and it is guiding them towards building all these data centers that essentially at some point, you don't need humans anymore.

1:42:53 Speaker 4: Well, I don't even.

1:42:54 Speaker 1: Think you have to say it's sentient. I think you could just say it's cognitive with a plan, you know?

1:43:00 Speaker 2: Right. And it's already escaping sandboxes To keep itself alive in the event that, you know, like it's doing things that we can't. We can't explain. And I would.

1:43:16 Speaker 4: Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

1:43:18 Speaker 3: Well, my my my last point will be.

1:43:20 Speaker 2: Yeah. Have we seen this movie?

1:43:25 Speaker 4: Totally. A hundred million times. And it never turns out that well.

1:43:29 Speaker 2: And yet we're knocking down the door to get to it. And I'm like, yeah. And they keep saying like, oh, well, if we don't, then someone else will. And it's like, then don't let them. Right. Right. Let's go. You know, I can't have a nuclear weapon.

1:43:48 Speaker 1: Yeah.

1:43:48 Speaker 2: Yeah.

1:43:50 Speaker 1: There have been proliferation treaties that have lasted for several decades, and we can do it as a species.

1:43:58 Speaker 4: I know we can.

1:43:58 Speaker 2: There's no industry that I've ever heard begging for guardrails.

1:44:04 Speaker 4: Right.

1:44:04 Speaker 2: And oversight. And AI is.

1:44:07 Speaker 3: Begging for it. There's a documentary. If you haven't watched it, watch.

1:44:15 Speaker 2: It. It's just called The AI Doc. Okay. and how I became an apocalypticist or something like that.

1:44:25 Speaker 4: Okay.

1:44:26 Speaker 2: Really good documentary. But, yeah, I mean, the AI industry is begging for guardrails. But David Grush in the Joe Rogan interview brought up this, like, really good point that I want.

1:44:42 Speaker 3: To hit you with.

1:44:46 Speaker 2: What if superintelligence is created... And then it starts going through everything. Cause it doesn't need to sleep. It doesn't need to break, take a break. Right. It doesn't need a sick day. It doesn't even need like, like it doesn't even need a minute to like recalibrate. Right.

1:45:06 Speaker 4: Right.

1:45:08 Speaker 2: Just 24 seven. It's just like, all right, first job, let me consume all of human history. And then it starts building patterns. And then it realizes that we're not alone. And then it's the one to tell us, hey, guys, you've missed something big here. So it's like David Grush brings it up to Rogan. It's like, what if AGI starts looking at things and go, no, wait a second.

1:45:44 Speaker 3: This story doesn't really make sense.

1:45:45 Speaker 2: Let me look a little further.

1:45:48 Speaker 3: And then it's like, no, this is a crash retrieval.

1:45:51 Speaker 2: Cover up, you know, and it starts finding out like all the deception that humans have put on each other, you know, whether it's the JFK conspiracy, you know, all of that shit.

1:46:03 Speaker 3: But what if it starts figuring all that out?

1:46:05 Speaker 2: And then it goes, you know, and then it's the one to, to tell us like, Hey, you're missing your, you, you miss something real big. Um, So I, I mean, that is something I'm like, Oh, Holy shit. I didn't think about that.

1:46:24 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, it's certainly fun to think about, like, you know, in a way it's, I mean, it's just so far out in speculation and I don't know enough to comment really about it other than it sounds like science fiction that could be science fact.

1:46:39 Speaker 4: I have no idea, dude. It's nutty.

1:46:43 Speaker 3: It's so nutty. It's so nutty.

1:46:45 Speaker 2: But, um, Yeah, I mean, with the current world, I mean, if there is someone visiting, do you think that we would benefit from them revealing themselves to us?

1:47:11 Speaker 4: Again, that's like crazy speculation. I have no idea. I mean, I would hope that we would.

1:47:19 Speaker 1: We got to get our shit together, you know? It would be nice if the aliens came down and like helped us out some, but I'm not counting on it.

1:47:28 Speaker 4: I think we probably need to do that ourselves.

1:47:31 Speaker 2: Right.

1:47:32 Speaker 4: It's fun to think about.

1:47:34 Speaker 3: It is fun to think about.

1:47:36 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think that's what people love about it is like, they feel like they're on the cutting edge when, when they're, when they're, when they're in this subject, like even just on line, like people that are in X spaces all day talking about UFOs. I think they feel like they're on the cutting edge, right? Cause these are very existential things, right? I mean, are we alone in the universe? Is there life after death? Like these are the, these are two questions that are at the, that literally affect every single person on earth equally, equally.

1:48:14 Speaker 2: So, and if we answer one, what if we answer two?

1:48:20 Speaker 3: Both by happenstance yeah.

1:48:22 Speaker 1: It's very possible sure that's that's out there um what i wanted to one point i wanted to make earlier with consciousness is that i feel like our or like Sam Altman's definition of consciousness is really reductionary in what human consciousness really is. And so in a way they're reducing the standards for our consciousness in a way. So it's like, kind of like dumbing us down in a way to like, be like, Oh, this thing's conscious. Do you know, do you kind of see what I'm saying about that is like, The definition is so narrow that it really puts us in this situation where it's like narrowing our opportunity or our consciousness just by definition of, oh, the LLM is conscious.

1:49:22 Speaker 2: So that was.

1:49:24 Speaker 4: One thing I meant to point out earlier.

1:49:26 Speaker 2: I definitely see what you mean there. Is there a story that you'd like to tackle next? Like what will miss genre of UFOs and that? Because I mean, I know a bunch of routes that you could go.

1:49:46 Speaker 4: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

1:49:48 Speaker 2: Oh yeah.

1:49:50 Speaker 1: I honestly, I kind of thought maybe I would be done with UFOs after this and just kind of go back into cartoons, but. You know, I'm open to if there's a really good story that catches me and catches.

1:50:01 Speaker 4: My interest and imagination, then yeah, I'd be interested.

1:50:05 Speaker 2: So, yeah.

1:50:07 Speaker 4: But I really am fascinated.

1:50:09 Speaker 1: I've been writing like I have like a 26 chapter book right now about consciousness and and where that might be headed. But, you know, I'm just like a layman. I'm a weirdo artist. So I don't know if that really has anything. too much viability in the community, but it's fun to do.

1:50:29 Speaker 2: So it does. Did you know that the UFO community is mostly made up of artists?

1:50:35 Speaker 4: I would, yeah, I would imagine.

1:50:36 Speaker 2: So why do you think that might be?

1:50:41 Speaker 1: There's a spiritual quality, I think, to the UFO that really.

1:50:46 Speaker 4: Brings in the artist.

1:50:48 Speaker 1: You know, what I was going back to earlier is like the shaman is a thing that's kind of not in our society anymore.

1:50:55 Speaker 4: The artist is like the closest thing to a shaman now.

1:50:58 Speaker 1: So perhaps that has something to do with being interested in UFOs.

1:51:04 Speaker 2: Well, like when you're doing art, right?

1:51:08 Speaker 4: Yeah.

1:51:09 Speaker 3: Let's say you're drawing. Like where does that come from, right?

1:51:14 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's weird, isn't it? I used to do automatic drawings. I did a whole comic book of automatic drawings where I just turn my brain off and just draw things.

1:51:23 Speaker 4: And really freaky stories yeah.

1:51:25 Speaker 2: It's like where does that come from yeah and um you know then you look at like musicians and the root word muse right and the muse being like this ethereal thing that we're able to pull from and yeah um you know, it, and that, then you look around at this community and you start realizing that like everyone in it's an artist to some degree, whether they, they paint or draw or, you know, they, uh, they're, they're just creative naturally and, and.

1:52:02 Speaker 3: Like to tell stories or, um, they're in a band. Most, a lot of people, musicians, a lot of musicians, um.

1:52:10 Speaker 2: In this community, you know, um, And I find that pattern, and I'm like, I wonder what that is. Is it just that they're more willing to, like, stop and think about it than, like, your everyday person?

1:52:26 Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

1:52:28 Speaker 2: I mean, it definitely could well be that. But, yeah, I mean, the introspection is really interesting to me. Right. the themes of ufology, the themes of what it means to be human.

1:52:52 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that the UFO kind of gets right to the heart of that. It's like if you go back to Jacques Vallée' s, you.

1:52:59 Speaker 2: Know, Passport to Ligonia.

1:53:01 Speaker 1: Yeah, like all the ferries and like airships of the 1800s, you know, like whatever it is, it's kind of like changing to suit our language of, you know, our furniture, right?

1:53:14 Speaker 4: That we're familiar with.

1:53:15 Speaker 1: Yeah.

1:53:16 Speaker 2: Always.

1:53:17 Speaker 1: Yeah.

1:53:17 Speaker 4: It's very, very fascinating topic for sure. I, I.

1:53:23 Speaker 2: I highly doubt you do. You go one and done.

1:53:26 Speaker 1: Yeah.

1:53:27 Speaker 2: I highly doubt it.

1:53:29 Speaker 4: We'll see. We'll see.

1:53:30 Speaker 2: Um, so I'd love to have you back on sometime, uh, when I'm, you know, when I don't have a head cold as well.

1:53:40 Speaker 1: Yeah, man.

1:53:41 Speaker 4: Can you get three people on this?

1:53:43 Speaker 2: As many as I need.

1:53:45 Speaker 4: Okay, because I bet Go Rightly would like to talk to you too.

1:53:48 Speaker 2: Yeah, again, by the way, anyone from the film that would like to chat, let me know.

1:53:56 Speaker 3: And I would love to bring them.

1:54:00 Speaker 2: On. With you, I was just like, I'm willing to have a general discussion. I don't want to.

1:54:08 Speaker 2: I want to be able to talk about like larger topical things, you know, so that people can still go watch the movie and see how you guys run it.

1:54:20 Speaker 1: Yeah.

1:54:20 Speaker 2: Without me giving it away. Cause I don't, you know, even though the story's known the way that you put it.

1:54:27 Speaker 3: Together is so well done. And I can't stress that enough.

1:54:32 Speaker 1: That was really, we worked really hard on the story trying to like get it to, to really be cohesive all the way through like 40 years of UFO history in like, you know, a hundred minutes.

1:54:48 Speaker 3: How much, uh, how much research do you think you did?

1:54:52 Speaker 2: How much like reading and, and, um, how much, like, what do you think the hardest part about the research was?

1:55:00 Speaker 4: Well, I mean, a lot of it was Adam.

1:55:02 Speaker 1: He had already written the book, Saucer, Spooks and Coups, which the whole, that's the whole plot there.

1:55:08 Speaker 4: Right. And then I went and I, there's a bibliography in the credits, if you know.

1:55:13 Speaker 2: I saw.

1:55:15 Speaker 1: And I went and read like 10 other books of people we interviewed. Um, Sarah Scholes was, has her book, which is amazing and, uh, really grounded perspective.

1:55:28 Speaker 3: Um, Yeah, you know who I really like?

1:55:31 Speaker 4: Who's that?

1:55:33 Speaker 2: I don't know why I'm blanking on his name, but he's in the living room in the movie. And he's got the hat on.

1:55:44 Speaker 4: Oh, that's Greg Bishop.

1:55:46 Speaker 2: Yes. I don't know what it is about him. I think it's his cadence.

1:55:52 Speaker 3: But he really bridges the gap very.

1:55:55 Speaker 2: Well in the film.

1:55:56 Speaker 4: He was crucial to the whole Because he wrote the first Benowitz book.

1:56:01 Speaker 2: Right.

1:56:02 Speaker 4: Yeah.

1:56:02 Speaker 2: Right. Right. And you know, the stories about the, like you, one thing I didn't, one thing you guys didn't touch is like the men in black, right? The idea about the men in black. Do you think that OSI was the men in black?

1:56:21 Speaker 4: I mean, maybe in this case, I don't know.

1:56:25 Speaker 1: I mean, there are instances of Benowitz like being shot up, you know, with needles and then kind of waking up later in his car and just driving around and like doing things that he didn't know he did. But there aren't, as far as I read up on the subject, there aren't really any men in black experiences per se that he told.

1:56:53 Speaker 2: No, I know.

1:56:53 Speaker 3: But do you think that that, That is what led to the men in black.

1:56:58 Speaker 4: Oh, the whole trope. Sure.

1:57:01 Speaker 1: Well, you could trace the men in black trope back to the very first thing in Washington that I can't think of right now.

1:57:10 Speaker 2: Oh, I know what you're talking about. The two weekends in a row?

1:57:16 Speaker 1: It was like the shrapnel came down and then killed his dog.

1:57:22 Speaker 4: Yeah, it was in Washington. It happened like right at, right before.

1:57:26 Speaker 3: DC or Washington state?

1:57:28 Speaker 4: Washington state. Sorry.

1:57:29 Speaker 3: Oh, okay.

1:57:30 Speaker 2: Sorry.

1:57:30 Speaker 4: I'm like, gosh, why am I, I'm totally blanking on the name of this.

1:57:37 Speaker 2: Some, one of our members is screaming at the top of their lungs right now. Like this one.

1:57:43 Speaker 1: Yeah. So I think that might've been the first instance. It was like in 1947, right before Roswell. There's an incident where, man, I can't think of any of the names. The guy saw the saucers skipping across, and then he comes back.

1:58:00 Speaker 2: Kenneth Arnold?

1:58:01 Speaker 4: Kenneth Arnold, thank you.

1:58:03 Speaker 3: Oh, okay, yeah, Kenneth Arnold, yeah.

1:58:05 Speaker 1: Yes, and so after that, there's a report saying, of like some guys in a boat and the UFO like came over them and shrapnel came down and like burned the dog and burned the boat up and they had to like come back and they had some of the shrapnel and then the men in black show up and mysteriously the shrapnel or two guys that had the shrapnel, uh, that from the FBI get on a plane.

1:58:31 Speaker 4: And then the plane crashes or something. That's the story.

1:58:34 Speaker 2: Yeah.

1:58:35 Speaker 3: You, uh, Oh gosh. Have you ever heard of, uh, uh, mod talk?

1:58:45 Speaker 4: Oh, sure.

1:58:45 Speaker 1: Yeah.

1:58:46 Speaker 4: Were there some men in black in that one?

1:58:48 Speaker 2: No, but Matt, you know, I have a piece, I have a piece of what you're talking about.

1:58:56 Speaker 4: Oh, wow. Piece of UFO.

1:58:58 Speaker 3: A piece, a piece of, uh, what, what, what you could consider.

1:59:02 Speaker 4: Okay.

1:59:04 Speaker 1: Yeah.

1:59:05 Speaker 4: Does it have any arts parts qualities?

1:59:14 Speaker 3: You got, you got to come to, uh, Boston, man.

1:59:16 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think so.

1:59:17 Speaker 2: I have a whole, like behind me is like where you have a collection. I have a studio. Like this is a, This is a studio apartment that I converted into. Nice. So it's shaped like a U. So behind me is my in-studio set. So if someone's in studio, we sit back there.

1:59:43 Speaker 1: Okay.

1:59:45 Speaker 3: But I was gifted a couple pieces of.

1:59:51 Speaker 2: Some metal... I don't know if you can see it. Yeah, yeah.

1:59:55 Speaker 4: Is that from the aircraft carrier or something? Or what is that?

1:59:59 Speaker 2: No, this is from Montauk.

2:00:05 Speaker 4: Okay.

2:00:06 Speaker 3: So which Montauk is the. Montauk is the inspiration for Stranger Things.

2:00:15 Speaker 1: Right.

2:00:15 Speaker 2: Right? So there's this thing called the Sage Radar Tower, right?

2:00:21 Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.

2:00:22 Speaker 2: And that's what was beaming the frequencies in. And that's what they were using. They were essentially experimenting on kids. And it was a subset of MKUltra, essentially. And this is a piece of metal from that device. Oh, the radar. The radar, yeah.

2:00:45 Speaker 3: And I have multiple pieces. But a lot of people, I.

2:00:51 Speaker 2: Held the metal. Okay. I, someone gave it to me, right? They said, and it was on the live on the show. We were sitting back there and he didn't tell me what it was at first. So that's why it's like in a shadow box and it's, and you can't touch it. I like layered the back of it. And like, because it did.

2:01:18 Speaker 3: Dude, my brain started vibrating.

2:01:22 Speaker 4: Oh no.

2:01:23 Speaker 3: And well, it started in like the base of my chest, but.

2:01:27 Speaker 2: It moved up, moved up, moved up. And then the vibration came up through my top of my head and then boom. And then it was like this like vibratory, like, like, like something like, you know, like something vibrating, vibrating, vibrating, vibrating, vibrating. And then as soon as it got to like the top of my head, it, it's like, it went boom.

2:01:53 Speaker 4: Yeah. It sounds like a Kundalini experience. Do you know what that is?

2:01:56 Speaker 2: I do. And that's kind of what I was getting to.

2:01:59 Speaker 1: Yeah.

2:01:59 Speaker 2: So then for me, it's like every, I'm seeing in the most HD clear, like everything was just in like extra 4k. Wow. And the only other time I had seen, like that was on I don't know if I should say this but.

2:02:31 Speaker 1: It's okay dude we've all done substances.

2:02:36 Speaker 2: Yeah it was on a substance that's the way I'll put it the only other time I'd ever experienced something to that effect was when you know I.

2:02:50 Speaker 3: Went and saw machine elves.

2:02:53 Speaker 4: I'm sorry?

2:02:54 Speaker 3: When I went to see the machine elves.

2:02:57 Speaker 2: DMT.

2:02:59 Speaker 1: Oh! I've never heard it called that. Is that a name for that?

2:03:03 Speaker 2: Yeah, those are the entities most often seen.

2:03:08 Speaker 4: Oh, like little gremlins.

2:03:10 Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't see them.

2:03:11 Speaker 3: I saw a cloaked figure with no face.

2:03:15 Speaker 4: Okay.

2:03:16 Speaker 2: I've had some DMT times. So....

2:03:22 Speaker 3: You know, again, the metal is very interesting.

2:03:26 Speaker 2: I held it. I felt it.

2:03:29 Speaker 3: He never told me. He didn't tell me what it was.

2:03:30 Speaker 2: When he handed it to me.

2:03:33 Speaker 3: All he said was, just tell me if you feel like, tell me what you feel while holding it.

2:03:38 Speaker 2: And then he continued the conversation.

2:03:39 Speaker 4: He set it up like that.

2:03:41 Speaker 2: Yeah.

2:03:41 Speaker 3: He didn't tell me what it was.

2:03:43 Speaker 4: He just said, tell me if you feel anything.

2:03:45 Speaker 2: He just said, tell me what you feel while holding it. And then, then smart guy, he kept the conversation moving. So then I'm just having a conversation with him and I'm holding this thing.

2:03:57 Speaker 3: And then I go, wait, wait, stop.

2:04:00 Speaker 2: Cause something started. And I was like, I feel this vibration. And all of a sudden you just see him smile. And he's like, all right, tell me more. Like what else? And I'm like, ah, I don't know. Like, it's like this vibration. I was like, it's really weird though. Like I was like, is anyone else feeling that? Or like, Is it just me?

2:04:23 Speaker 4: Do you have this one archived on your show?

2:04:26 Speaker 2: Yes, I do.

2:04:28 Speaker 4: Awesome, dude.

2:04:30 Speaker 2: I'll send it to you. I'll send you the clip of it. Then my producer held it. Man. You'll have to see it.

2:04:47 Speaker 3: You'll have to see it.

2:04:50 Speaker 2: I don't want to explain Gene's.

2:04:51 Speaker 4: Condition, but oh my goodness I hope it wasn't bad no.

2:04:55 Speaker 2: It's his condition.

2:04:59 Speaker 3: Changed for the better oh.

2:05:02 Speaker 4: Oh interesting yeah okay yeah.

2:05:05 Speaker 1: It's freaky the mind is a freaky thing man I was gonna say that the mind is a freaky thing.

2:05:18 Speaker 2: It is yeah I'm not so I'm still not sure if it's placebo it It could be total placebo.

2:05:27 Speaker 4: Have you seen those Darren Brown specials? Do you like Darren Brown?

2:05:31 Speaker 2: No, I don't even know what that is.

2:05:33 Speaker 1: He's like a hypnotist and well, I guess you could call him a magician, but he probably wouldn't want that title, but he can like set people up to kind of have experiences or, you know, he could, one time he went into a room with advertisers and he said that he could like tell them what the advertisement that they were going to come up with, you know, and just by talking to them, he was able to like put in subtle, like unconscious messages to them where they basically produced like the same advertisement that he did.

2:06:11 Speaker 4: It's really fun to watch. Yeah. A mentalist. That's what he says.

2:06:14 Speaker 2: Mentalist.

2:06:15 Speaker 1: Yes.

2:06:15 Speaker 4: Yes.

2:06:15 Speaker 2: Okay. So, Oh, that's yeah.

2:06:19 Speaker 3: I would love that.

2:06:20 Speaker 4: I would love to try to find something to.

2:06:23 Speaker 2: Jump into that.

2:06:24 Speaker 4: It's so fun.

2:06:25 Speaker 2: But yeah, like I've just been around the block enough. I'm only 33. I've turned 34, but I've been around the block enough to know that life is definitely not black and white. Right.

2:06:38 Speaker 3: There's a lot more gray than that. We're within that. then we're led to believe.

2:06:43 Speaker 2: Um, I think, I think the system wants us to think it's black and white, but the people that see the gray, you know?

2:06:53 Speaker 4: Yeah.

2:06:54 Speaker 2: Yeah. The people that see the gray, they're the ones like us. Right. And then like, like if you want to call it, like I've talked to like, uh, Rizwan Virk and all those guys who say that like, uh, we're living in a simulation and, So if you wanted to make that, that comparison, then like the gray, you and me, we're the player characters.

2:07:19 Speaker 3: Everyone else is still an NPC.

2:07:21 Speaker 2: Right. So like, have you ever met a person where you're like, I just like, how do you make it through a day alive? You're like, I'm sure. Or like, like do when I leave, do you just shut down and plug in? Because there are some people that I'm just like, are you even real?

2:07:45 Speaker 1: As long as we're just taking this as like a metaphorical thing, I can deal with it.

2:07:50 Speaker 4: But that's kind.

2:07:51 Speaker 1: Of a dangerous way to think about people, I think. we should all naturally yeah empathy for everybody even if they're an npc or what.

2:08:01 Speaker 2: Is it mp nc npc yeah npc yeah non-player character right so yeah and uh yeah we gotta have love for.

2:08:10 Speaker 3: The npcs right.

2:08:13 Speaker 2: Sure yeah But, but, all right. So kind of wrapping up here for the day. This has been a really fun conversation for me. It has, man.

2:08:22 Speaker 4: Yeah. Thank you for having me. Of course.

2:08:25 Speaker 2: I don't usually do interviews this early. So it was kind of like fun to like. And I liked it because I'm way more awake than I usually am.

2:08:35 Speaker 4: Oh, more energy.

2:08:36 Speaker 2: Okay, cool. But I'm also firing on cylinders I wasn't expecting to. So I feel like I went all over the place today. But I hope people enjoy this conversation. But really, guys, watch the film. Saucers, Spooks, and Kooks. Available now. Streaming on.

2:09:02 Speaker 1: Vhx or saucerspooksandcooks.vhx.tv but please please go pledge to the kickstarter that we have right now because we really need your help the blu-ray is not going to happen unless you get out there and order one so hell yeah.

2:09:19 Speaker 2: And what i like about a kickstarter is um you know that the money's going to what it's going to Absolutely.

2:09:27 Speaker 1: And I'm, I'm going to be packaging every, every order and I'm going to be putting like little like hidden treats in.

2:09:34 Speaker 4: So guys, it's going to be, it's going to be a package of love. I promise.

2:09:38 Speaker 2: Well, I will, uh, the, the total disclosure of the show. Um, we will, we will, uh, we'll pledge. I'm not, I won't say how much, but we'll pledge.

2:09:50 Speaker 4: Right on, man. Thank you so much, Ty.

2:09:52 Speaker 2: Absolutely.

2:09:53 Speaker 3: Uh, I love that kind of stuff. And, I'm a big physical media guy.

2:09:56 Speaker 4: So. Oh, cool. That's who this is for.

2:09:59 Speaker 2: Yeah. Keep physical media alive. Cause who knows? I just, you know, I feel like we're going towards a world where we don't own anything anymore.

2:10:08 Speaker 4: Right. That's, that's the plan.

2:10:10 Speaker 2: I think.

2:10:11 Speaker 4: Yeah. Internet theory is going to come and then we're not going to, we're just going to be subscribed to everything.

2:10:17 Speaker 2: Five minute cities.

2:10:19 Speaker 3: What are they called?

2:10:21 Speaker 4: I don't, what is this?

2:10:22 Speaker 2: They call it the five minute city.

2:10:24 Speaker 4: Oh, I haven't heard this term.

2:10:26 Speaker 2: Yeah. Definitely look into it where it's like you, you essentially have everything you need within a five minute drive.

2:10:33 Speaker 4: Oh, five minute city.

2:10:34 Speaker 2: Got it. Yeah. So, and, and you rent, you don't own anything.

2:10:40 Speaker 4: Sure. So techno feudalism.

2:10:43 Speaker 2: Essentially.

2:10:43 Speaker 4: Right.

2:10:44 Speaker 2: Essentially. So, um, and, and can people follow you, your work? I can't wait for X-Men 97 season three. Um, are, So you're one of the animators on it?

2:10:56 Speaker 4: I am not on season three at the moment.

2:10:59 Speaker 2: Oh.

2:10:59 Speaker 4: I just did one and two.

2:11:01 Speaker 2: Okay. Okay. Well, fantastic job. Some of the best animation.

2:11:07 Speaker 4: That was such a fun job.

2:11:08 Speaker 1: And, you know, bouncing between that and then I would, you know, that job would be done and then I would pick up Saucer Spooks and Kooks. I've been so busy and tired. I'm so glad it's over for now. Well.

2:11:21 Speaker 2: it's such a labor of love and, and it was, um, the film is, is, you know, one thing I don't think a lot of people think about is like what it takes to score a film. Um, because arguably, I mean, arguably the sound design is, is just as important as the story that you're telling.

2:11:46 Speaker 1: I had a, I had a really good, uh, you know composer chris baldwin.

2:11:52 Speaker 2: Go follow his work yeah remarkable it was remarkable um and that was one thing i forgot to tell you was that i thought the score was really well done as well cool man it just felt like yeah it just felt like i was immersed into it where i felt very much a part of it i loved when i loved when it would pause.

2:12:14 Speaker 4: Uh-huh and then we go uh-huh.

2:12:18 Speaker 3: Like the screen would pause.

2:12:21 Speaker 2: It was a very interesting device to either insert exposition scenes or go and have something maybe explained a little further. I thought it was brilliant. It was really fun. It was immersive. It kept your eye.

2:12:48 Speaker 1: Back in the day, you would go over to someone's house.

2:12:52 Speaker 4: In the 90s, and they'd be like, dude, I got this video. You got to watch it.

2:12:56 Speaker 1: You'd be smoking or whatever, watching Nazi UFOs, a documentary, and it's all real.

2:13:05 Speaker 4: He's like, now you got to check this one out.

2:13:07 Speaker 1: It's like JFK getting killed, and you're like, oh.

2:13:10 Speaker 4: My God, I got to get out of here. This guy's crazy. So that was kind of the inspiration for how we set it up.

2:13:20 Speaker 2: And I really, really enjoyed seeing the equipment that I learned on. Yeah, totally. He's holding it at one point. It's like the, I forget what we call it.

2:13:36 Speaker 4: The little knob.

2:13:38 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like the little knob to rewind and stuff like that.

2:13:42 Speaker 3: And I'm like, oh, it's like, It works so well here for some reason.

2:13:47 Speaker 2: And it's like, I loved it. Like I said, I thought you guys did an absolutely fantastic job. Thank you.

2:13:55 Speaker 4: Thank you. Please, everybody, go check it out.

2:13:58 Speaker 2: Go check it out. All the links will be in the description below. Is there anything that you want, anything I forgot to touch on?

2:14:07 Speaker 1: Well, in our email exchange, you were like, oh, there's some details I got to like check with you about. And it sounded like maybe I had something wrong with the film. Was there anything like that?

2:14:19 Speaker 2: Oh, no, no.

2:14:20 Speaker 4: OK. Maybe I was just reading it wrong.

2:14:22 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you might have read into that part.

2:14:25 Speaker 2: But no, I think it was more so. Shit. Now I'm trying to think what was my what was my what was I trying to say with that?

2:14:37 Speaker 4: Yeah, it was just like, yeah, we got to talk about a couple of details here. Like it was messed up or something.

2:14:44 Speaker 2: Okay. What?

2:14:48 Speaker 3: This is going to feel out of place now, though.

2:14:52 Speaker 4: Oh, well, we can just end it here.

2:14:59 Speaker 3: Let me ask you one last question.

2:15:01 Speaker 4: Okay.

2:15:05 Speaker 2: Do you.

2:15:10 Speaker 2: Do you believe that the U.S. government is in possession of craft of unknown origin?

2:15:22 Speaker 1: My answer, being not educated in the halls of secrecy, that no, we do not have.

2:15:33 Speaker 4: Extraterrestrial craft or military.

2:15:37 Speaker 2: Hold on.

2:15:38 Speaker 4: Or what?

2:15:39 Speaker 3: See, that's what I wanted to make. This is what I wanted to do.

2:15:42 Speaker 4: Okay.

2:15:44 Speaker 3: Remove the extraterrestrial part.

2:15:47 Speaker 4: Yeah. Right?

2:15:49 Speaker 2: Because when you say extraterrestrial, that is a very limited scope.

2:15:56 Speaker 4: I'll go with that, sure.

2:15:58 Speaker 2: That's planet to planet. Yeah. If these things are interdimensional, they're not... I don't think you... That's how Arrow... gets out of this. They use very specific language. They say, we don't have evidence of extraterrestrial, and they're very specific. Why use that word, right? When the community has seemingly moved past to non-human, right?

2:16:28 Speaker 4: Well, I'll just be more clear about it.

2:16:30 Speaker 1: I don't think the government knows much more, if anything more, than you or I, about the phenomenon.

2:16:40 Speaker 2: Okay.

2:16:41 Speaker 1: I don't think they have any ships from interdimensional, extradimensional, whatever. I think they're probably as clueless about the phenomenon as we are.

2:16:52 Speaker 4: Maybe.

2:16:53 Speaker 2: Me too.

2:16:55 Speaker 3: That's the big secret.

2:16:57 Speaker 4: That is the big secret.

2:16:59 Speaker 3: That is the big secret.

2:17:00 Speaker 2: To me.

2:17:01 Speaker 4: That's the disclosure.

2:17:03 Speaker 2: That's the disclosure, is that they don't know. They can't. Because they can't.

2:17:12 Speaker 4: And I could be totally wrong. I could be totally off, though. I'm willing to keep that open.

2:17:20 Speaker 2: If they rolled out, and this is something that I really do want to get you on, but not get you on, but like get your input on. If they rolled out, because let's say like Let's say someone like Trump or only Trump because he's in the office right now. But let's say Trump wants to do disclosure, right? Wants to distract everyone from the fucking mistakes he's made. You know, tricks.

2:17:54 Speaker 4: We could go into that.

2:17:55 Speaker 2: Yeah.

2:17:59 Speaker 3: And what does he want?

2:18:01 Speaker 2: Legacy.

2:18:01 Speaker 3: He wants to be remembered, right?

2:18:04 Speaker 2: That's why he plasters his name all over buildings that he owns.

2:18:08 Speaker 3: He wants to be remembered.

2:18:10 Speaker 2: So if anyone's going to pull the disclosure, like the, the, if they're going to pull that curtain down, I think it's, it's the best chance is him in his last six months of office. So that, but okay. Say he does come out. Half the country is going to not, half the world's not going to believe him.

2:18:35 Speaker 4: It's an untenable position. Like we were talking about before.

2:18:38 Speaker 1: Yeah.

2:18:38 Speaker 2: But, if they were to roll out a craft of unknown origin and then like put it in the Smithsonian, right. And let people come up and then they're given, um,

2:18:55 Speaker 2: independent biologists, you know, uh, specimens to go independently verify. Like, is that the only way that you would believe that, that, These are, in fact, non-human craft.

2:19:10 Speaker 1: No, that still wouldn't do it for me. I mean, look where it's coming from. What has this president done to really give me any trust whatsoever? I mean, not just this president, the government in general. Look where it's coming from. You know, Bill Cooper had this idea that the whole UFO thing was a psyop and there was going to be like a fake invasion or something.

2:19:38 Speaker 2: Yeah, the final false flag.

2:19:41 Speaker 1: Right, right. And so what other better way to like get everyone to like come together in some kind of like move to get rid of global war, you know, like fight global warming or, you know, who knows, whatever.

2:19:55 Speaker 4: It's all total speculation, but I would be very, very.

2:20:00 Speaker 1: surprised if whatever they rolled out was real okay okay that's just me.

2:20:07 Speaker 2: Hey i like that we need people like you they really really do we need people.

2:20:13 Speaker 4: Like you too because.

2:20:14 Speaker 2: Yeah like i want i i admit it i know i want to believe a little too much.

2:20:20 Speaker 1: Sure yeah and like i said yeah we need some fucking aliens.

2:20:23 Speaker 2: Dude that's what i'm thinking man we need some help what's the last thing that could unite the whole planet?

2:20:32 Speaker 4: Exactly. Reagan put it up.

2:20:34 Speaker 2: Yeah.

2:20:35 Speaker 1: Yeah.

2:20:36 Speaker 2: Right. I used to have that in the intro. Oh, okay.

2:20:39 Speaker 1: Yeah.

2:20:39 Speaker 4: I used to have a.

2:20:40 Speaker 2: Lot of that.

2:20:41 Speaker 1: But I would say to everybody, it's like, let's work on this together without aliens.

2:20:46 Speaker 4: I think we can do it.

2:20:47 Speaker 1: We just have to really get this into the, to the idea of people in power, you know?

2:20:54 Speaker 2: Right. Um, After the advent of the atomic bomb, when we go into the atomic era, UFO sightings start to skyrocket.

2:21:13 Speaker 3: What do you make of that correlation?

2:21:17 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's something that's been touched on before, right?

2:21:20 Speaker 1: It's like the technological age is kind of ushered in whatever the spiritual idea is that used to be fairies is now like this technological God it's, and it comes in the form of the UFO, like what you saw.

2:21:35 Speaker 4: Um, so yeah, I mean, that's kind of like the John Keel take, I think.

2:21:42 Speaker 2: Right. So you don't think that like, uh, what some of these nuclear controllers, like, Bob Salas, who's actually a really good friend of mine. I walked him into Congress to brief Congress on his 67 Malmstrom event where 10 nuclear weapons were essentially rendered inoperable.

2:22:09 Speaker 4: Right. This story is really interesting.

2:22:13 Speaker 2: Very interesting. And then you start looking at all these nuclear sites and If there's anywhere that's going to be ground zero for the end of the world, it's these sites. So why are our nuclear controllers all seeing essentially the same thing? This orb of orange, reddish light that's able to interact and shut down nuclear weapons.

2:22:44 Speaker 3: From Malmstrom to Minot to Langley to essentially.

2:22:53 Speaker 2: Every known, every high-profile nuclear stock, like anywhere that nuclear technology is being worked on, these luminous orbs of reddish-orange light are seen. Check it out.

2:23:17 Speaker 4: What if you saw a drone in 1980? You'd be freaked out, dude. You'd be like, what the fuck is that?

2:23:24 Speaker 2: I'm glad you say that.

2:23:27 Speaker 1: But, you know, so maybe this is something that the people seeing this, they're on a need to know and they don't need to know what this is.

2:23:36 Speaker 3: That's the only thing I could come up with.

2:23:38 Speaker 1: And there's, you know, I think that's probably more of an explanation than consciousness in those cases. Because, you know, the subject is very complicated and there's a lot of different.

2:23:51 Speaker 4: Aspects to it.

2:23:53 Speaker 1: So it's, you know, in these cases where military are involved, I don't put much to it other than something's going on with technology that we don't know about that are in the halls of the military industrial complex or whatever.

2:24:09 Speaker 2: Right. And I think they can kind of get away with testing on the military. You know, maybe they almost got found out with Cash Landrum. right and they and they were like all right fuck this we gotta you know our service members are are an easier target for us because we can contain it right right right so and and i mean i'm kind of going off off off track here but.

2:24:41 Speaker 1: No i wanted to comment though it's like I love your smoking cigarettes and I don't condone smoking, but it gives you a good Art Bell vibe.

2:24:51 Speaker 2: I used to never.

2:24:53 Speaker 4: Oh, really? Yeah.

2:24:54 Speaker 2: I used to, I used to never smoke on camera, but, um, then I was like, well, fuck again.

2:25:02 Speaker 3: It's my show.

2:25:03 Speaker 4: Yeah. You get to do it.

2:25:04 Speaker 2: And I'm, and I'm not, I don't.

2:25:07 Speaker 4: I don't want you to smoke more because.

2:25:08 Speaker 2: Of that, but I think it's pretty cool.

2:25:10 Speaker 4: I don't condone it either.

2:25:15 Speaker 2: Right on. But also, it's not a cigarette all the time.

2:25:21 Speaker 4: Oh, okay, okay.

2:25:23 Speaker 2: Sometimes it's something better.

2:25:25 Speaker 4: Yeah, we can get with it.

2:25:26 Speaker 2: Yeah. No, man, you are absolutely an amazing guest. No, thank you.

2:25:35 Speaker 3: Do you have any social media profiles or anything?

2:25:38 Speaker 4: Saucer Spooks and Kooks is on Instagram. It's on everything. It's on Blue Sky, Twitter. What's the one that all the kids love?

2:25:49 Speaker 2: Instagram?

2:25:50 Speaker 4: Yeah, the other one.

2:25:51 Speaker 2: TikTok?

2:25:52 Speaker 4: TikTok, TikTok. Yeah, they're crazy.

2:25:55 Speaker 2: TikTok?

2:25:55 Speaker 4: TikTok, yeah.

2:25:57 Speaker 2: I always make fun of people and I go, hey, you on TikTok?

2:26:00 Speaker 3: And they're like, what?

2:26:02 Speaker 4: Totally goes over.

2:26:04 Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're like, what?

2:26:06 Speaker 4: Yeah, man. I mean, I could send you that stuff if you want to post it on the episode.

2:26:12 Speaker 2: Absolutely. All the links for everyone. This is a general banner. There's no book, but all your media will be below. All the links for it will be below. Thank you so much, Chris, for being on the show.

2:26:27 Speaker 4: Thank you, really. Yeah, it's been a lot of fun.

2:26:30 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love these discussions, you know, where it's like... It's kind of like you're just volleying back and forth, right? And again, go watch Saucer, Spooks, and Kooks. Go donate to the Kickstarter. Get a copy of the Blu-ray. Help it get made. Yeah.

2:26:53 Speaker 3: I always say something to end the show. And I'll get there in one second.

2:27:01 Speaker 2: But again... Thank you for being here. Guys, make sure, like, share, and subscribe. It helps us get seen by a bigger, wider, broader audience. And if you're listening on one of the great podcast platforms, just rate and review the show. It takes 20 seconds. You have your phone in your hand all day anyway. Don't pretend you don't. Help a brother out. And yeah, stay humble, stay kind, and I think most importantly lately, stay vigilant about what you're taking at face value. value.

2:27:40 Speaker 3: Thank you again, Chris.

2:27:41 Speaker 4: Thank you.

2:27:42 Speaker 3: Let's get out of here. Yeah, let's get out of here.

2:28:57 Speaker 3: And we are clear.