The Life of A Navajo Paranormal Ranger (Feat. Jonathan Dover)

0:00 Speaker 1: In the far reaches of the American Southwest, where the

0:05 Speaker 1: masas cut the sky and the stars burn like ancient beacons.

0:10 Speaker 1: Stories have been told for centuries of star beings who

0:13 Speaker 1: came down from the heavens teaching mankind the ways of

0:16 Speaker 1: creation and the way of destruction. And on the lands

0:18 Speaker 1: of the Navajo Nation, the unexplained has never been just

0:21 Speaker 1: a stored it's been in reality. For most encounters with UFOs,

0:25 Speaker 1: cryptids and witchcraft, they are whispered about in camphire pales

0:29 Speaker 1: or hushed inside of a skiff, and then talked about

0:32 Speaker 1: in secret, classified reports. But for one man, one man

0:36 Speaker 1: who arrived respected for quite a while and really have

0:39 Speaker 1: wanted to have on the show and have a conversation.

0:41 Speaker 2: With these weren't just legends, they were case followers.

0:44 Speaker 1: Today we're joined by a legend who's worked that Razor's

0:48 Speaker 1: ed been lined between the spiritual and the scientific. Attendant

0:51 Speaker 1: Jonathan Redberg, do Navo ranger with over three decades in

0:56 Speaker 1: law enforcement, trained in archaeology, forensics, tactical operations, yet sign

1:00 Speaker 1: to investigate what others dismissed as vocal cryptid sightings like

1:05 Speaker 1: skin walkers, haun things, witchcraft, and UFOs over the Sacred

1:09 Speaker 1: desert lands, across cultures across the globe, the Dogons of

1:13 Speaker 1: Africa to the Maya, Central America, from the Sumerian carvings,

1:16 Speaker 1: all the way back to the Navajo standpaking humanity has

1:20 Speaker 1: been telling the same story, beings descending from the stars,

1:24 Speaker 1: knowledge beyond comprehension, and technology that feels more like em

1:29 Speaker 1: than discovering. Are we rediscovering what ancient civilizations once knew?

1:34 Speaker 1: Or are we being reminded of who's still watching? This

1:38 Speaker 1: is full of disclosure and it's time we open the

1:40 Speaker 1: official case file for the Unknown, with.

1:43 Speaker 2: Navajo ranging my book. Oh, welcome to the show, John Welcome.

1:55 Speaker 1: I've had such tremendous respect and honor for you and

1:59 Speaker 1: to have you here today. I think we talked a

2:02 Speaker 1: little bit about it this sastage, So I really want

2:04 Speaker 1: to say thank.

2:05 Speaker 3: You, thank you for having me.

2:08 Speaker 1: Yeah, your story, I mean it's one your your story

2:12 Speaker 1: almost it's almost written for TV or written for uh

2:19 Speaker 1: sci fi films, and uh it just your your life.

2:24 Speaker 1: Seems like it has just been such a thrilling adventure.

2:30 Speaker 1: And I really want to obviously want to get into

2:33 Speaker 1: a lot with you about mythology and the Navo and

2:37 Speaker 1: you know the Curse of the skin Walker and you

2:39 Speaker 1: all that good stuff. But I really do want to

2:42 Speaker 1: get to know who John Dover is. So before we

2:46 Speaker 1: dive into the unknown, can you tell us what led

2:50 Speaker 1: you into law enforcement and ultimately the NAVO Rangers.

2:55 Speaker 3: Well, I had an interest in law enforcement. I had

3:00 Speaker 3: worked for McDonald douglas in Monrovia, California, and really liked it,

3:09 Speaker 3: and that was just security work. I had applied with

3:13 Speaker 3: the Cocamino County Sheriff's Department and I ended up, out

3:20 Speaker 3: of one hundred and fifty applicants, being ranked number two,

3:25 Speaker 3: but they were only hiring one. But it encouraged me

3:30 Speaker 3: because I knew I could compete. So after that I

3:36 Speaker 3: kind of, you know, looking for work, and they had

3:41 Speaker 3: a position showing a naval nation, a little notice in

3:47 Speaker 3: the chapter house that said they're looking for a ranger.

3:51 Speaker 3: I had no idea what a ranger it was, and

3:54 Speaker 3: so I did my application that got sent in. Window

3:59 Speaker 3: Rock is about one hundred and thirty miles away. They

4:03 Speaker 3: sent my application in and next thing I know, they

4:08 Speaker 3: said I had an interview. So the chapter at the

4:11 Speaker 3: time had a job program that helped you secure work.

4:16 Speaker 3: So they actually gave me a ride to window Rock.

4:20 Speaker 3: Back in those days, it was a lot of it

4:22 Speaker 3: was dirt road, so travel to window Rock. I went

4:27 Speaker 3: in the office, met with the ranger director and he

4:32 Speaker 3: asked me only one question. He said, how do you

4:36 Speaker 3: feel about somebody threatening your life or the life of

4:40 Speaker 3: your family? And I immediately shot back. I immediately told him.

4:48 Speaker 3: I says, well, I'll take a three hundred savage and

4:52 Speaker 3: cut the ears off at two hundred yards. And he

4:58 Speaker 3: looked at me and he says, you're hired. Still didn't

5:02 Speaker 3: know what a ranger was.

5:06 Speaker 1: So you knew what a ranger was in the context though,

5:09 Speaker 1: so you just didn't know what a Navajo ranger was,

5:13 Speaker 1: right right.

5:15 Speaker 3: So after that, I find out that their job is

5:22 Speaker 3: resource law enforcement and protection. So it includes all areas

5:29 Speaker 3: of renewable and non renewable resources, so game and fish, forestry,

5:38 Speaker 3: just you know, minds, minerals, water resources, everything. And then

5:46 Speaker 3: there was a search and rescue component that was included

5:50 Speaker 3: that we were tasked with under tribal code. And then

5:55 Speaker 3: on top of that, you had to attend the police

5:58 Speaker 3: academy and on occasion you'd have to do police work

6:04 Speaker 3: and within the park areas because we are park rangers,

6:09 Speaker 3: we were the park police. So I get a memory

6:16 Speaker 3: them that says you're to attend the Navu Police Academy

6:21 Speaker 3: for six months and back then police academies for only

6:26 Speaker 3: twelve weeks, so to have one to go twenty four

6:30 Speaker 3: weeks was pretty pretty chanos. And I went to the

6:38 Speaker 3: police academy and my memorandum that I got said that

6:42 Speaker 3: if you don't pass the police Academy, you'll be terminated.

6:47 Speaker 3: So I went in. I thought, okay, I'm gonna I'm

6:49 Speaker 3: gonna do this. There are four rangers total that went

6:54 Speaker 3: in the police academy. This is the Navaju Police Academy.

6:59 Speaker 3: And we spent six months in this police academy. And

7:04 Speaker 3: I finished with the top honors for the academy including

7:10 Speaker 3: the Outstanding Cadet Award and Academics and Marchmanship. And you know,

7:21 Speaker 3: all four rangers completed that course. I of seventy seven

7:27 Speaker 3: students that were assigned to it, only thirty two graduated.

7:34 Speaker 2: Geez, so very selective, very very selective.

7:39 Speaker 3: Yeah, very tough. And after I finished, I still had

7:43 Speaker 3: to be I was certified in Arizona. I went to

7:47 Speaker 3: additional training to be certified in New Mexico, and I

7:53 Speaker 3: helped help commission cards with Coconino County what they call reprosody,

8:00 Speaker 3: and so I was state certified, I was tribally certified,

8:05 Speaker 3: and then we had to be federally certified under what

8:08 Speaker 3: they call it SLEC, which is a Special Law Enforcement

8:13 Speaker 3: Commission under the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

8:18 Speaker 2: Wow.

8:19 Speaker 1: So it's a very long process and it's a very

8:22 Speaker 1: grueling process. Now again, you you kind of said it

8:27 Speaker 1: from the beginning that you thought that this was odd,

8:30 Speaker 1: that it was so intense or did were you just

8:34 Speaker 1: not even thinking about that.

8:37 Speaker 3: I had no idea at the time. And Naville Police

8:43 Speaker 3: decided that they wanted to do one academy with an

8:48 Speaker 3: emphasis on academics as opposed to physical stuff. So that's

8:55 Speaker 3: what I was involved in, and there were there was

9:00 Speaker 3: one guy that was ahead of me. He would later

9:03 Speaker 3: on become the chief of police for Naval Nation. But

9:07 Speaker 3: towards the end of the academy, everybody was relaxing, and

9:12 Speaker 3: just like the long distance wonder that I was at

9:15 Speaker 3: the time, I decided I'm going to sprint to the

9:18 Speaker 3: finish line and Elliott work even harder, and I passed

9:23 Speaker 3: from just by a few points.

9:25 Speaker 2: Oh that's that's amazing.

9:28 Speaker 1: So okay, and and now okay, you become you become

9:35 Speaker 1: a ranger. Now, for folks who aren't familiar, what separates? So?

9:41 Speaker 2: Why why are why is the police?

9:43 Speaker 1: Why is there a different police force on a reservation

9:46 Speaker 1: and off a reservation? And what where does that separation begin?

9:50 Speaker 2: And why?

9:53 Speaker 3: Well, the navalination is sovereign, so the US government deals

10:00 Speaker 3: with the naval nation at a state department level. So

10:06 Speaker 3: because we're sovereign, you're literally going into another country when

10:11 Speaker 3: you come onto any reservation. And there's five hundred and

10:16 Speaker 3: seventy four reservations across the United States, or at least

10:20 Speaker 3: that many tribes. Some of them don't have reservations. And

10:26 Speaker 3: then after that the more intense training started. The police

10:31 Speaker 3: academy is just the basic. After that, I was loaned

10:36 Speaker 3: out to the National Park Service for six months and

10:39 Speaker 3: trained in They call it interpretation. This is not language interpretation,

10:46 Speaker 3: This is interpreting the landscape and the artifacts and everything

10:51 Speaker 3: else within the monument. There After that, I went through

10:56 Speaker 3: game and fish training, forestryt training, just every kind of uh,

11:04 Speaker 3: law enforcement training for resources that you could get into,

11:09 Speaker 3: and I was already a specialist with ropes. I was

11:14 Speaker 3: an instructor in the Academy for Technical Rescue because that

11:20 Speaker 3: had been one of my uh one of the things

11:23 Speaker 3: I'd love to do is to climb m So I

11:28 Speaker 3: ended up putting on the course for one week for

11:31 Speaker 3: the for the Police Academy while I was a student there,

11:35 Speaker 3: and later on became the instructor for Hengel Technical Rescue.

11:43 Speaker 1: Interesting, so so when did where how long is it

11:49 Speaker 1: before you become a ranger and till the moment or

11:55 Speaker 1: or how long is it until you climbed to a

11:58 Speaker 1: degree where then you get asked to do this.

12:03 Speaker 3: Well, you're asked to do it almost immediately, but we

12:10 Speaker 3: used to like to say it would on average it

12:13 Speaker 3: would take three years to fully train a ranger and

12:18 Speaker 3: and so you know, it was a pretty demanding process.

12:23 Speaker 3: There was a lot of like we did livestock issues

12:29 Speaker 3: issues with people that had disputes. So they're civil matters,

12:33 Speaker 3: but we would get involved in those livestock that even

12:40 Speaker 3: even cattle cattle mulations livestock.

12:44 Speaker 2: Yeah.

12:47 Speaker 3: So yeah, Stan had a rather startling one and I

12:51 Speaker 3: think he recorded it in this book The Paranormal Ranger,

12:55 Speaker 3: where he had dirty sheep that died inside of her

13:00 Speaker 3: out overnight. And these sheep, he said, were split open

13:06 Speaker 3: from the groin all the way to the to the

13:08 Speaker 3: job boon, and there was no blood. And I don't

13:14 Speaker 3: know if you've ever cut sheep skin before, but it's tough.

13:20 Speaker 4: Uh.

13:21 Speaker 3: The wool is so tough that railroaders that were running

13:29 Speaker 3: trains hated to hit a herd of them because it

13:32 Speaker 3: could literally wrap up in the trucks and derail a train.

13:37 Speaker 1: Oh wow, Okay, that's so so what you're implying is

13:42 Speaker 1: that too.

13:45 Speaker 2: To Okay, I'm sorry, continue, I see where you're going.

13:49 Speaker 3: So he said that when he got there, there was

13:53 Speaker 3: a metallic smell in the air. The dogs, the sheep

14:01 Speaker 3: dogs would not go anywhere near that corral. The vet

14:06 Speaker 3: came out and could not tell anybody what had happened

14:11 Speaker 3: or what had caused us. And he said that the

14:15 Speaker 3: wounds almost looked like they had been cauterized. They were

14:18 Speaker 3: the straightest, narrow.

14:20 Speaker 1: So like with precision. Yes, and this is done overnight

14:27 Speaker 1: to twenty plus of these sheep, and there's an ozone

14:32 Speaker 1: metallic taste in the air and so I mean, so okay,

14:38 Speaker 1: So it sounds like you guys are introduced now, because

14:40 Speaker 1: let me maybe I miss something when when you're when

14:43 Speaker 1: you sign up, you said.

14:44 Speaker 2: You didn't know what a ranger was.

14:47 Speaker 1: When did you find out that being a ranger included

14:54 Speaker 1: investigating the paranormal, investigating these otherworldly you know, encounters and

15:03 Speaker 1: things that you know, maybe the sovereign nation of the

15:07 Speaker 1: United States didn't recognize or doesn't recognize as being real.

15:13 Speaker 3: Well, you have to understand that when I entered in

15:17 Speaker 3: nineteen eighty, the rangers had been established since nineteen fifty

15:24 Speaker 3: seven and they were modeled on the National Park Service ranger.

15:31 Speaker 3: So we were there really to be helpful as much

15:34 Speaker 3: as we could. And that's how we were trained at

15:37 Speaker 3: meeting with tourists and giving directions and you know, just

15:42 Speaker 3: just trying to be helpful. Now, all rangers experienced some

15:50 Speaker 3: level of paranormal activity going on in their districts, and

15:57 Speaker 3: this was just a matter of fact, read kind of

16:00 Speaker 3: like an everyday occurrence, But you didn't talk about it

16:07 Speaker 3: because number one, you didn't want anybody to say you're crazy,

16:12 Speaker 3: because the government had been ridiculing people that reported UFOs,

16:18 Speaker 3: so the officers would not talk about it. They had

16:22 Speaker 3: encounters with bigfoot, encounters with skin walkers, and counters with hauntings,

16:30 Speaker 3: and they just they just it went unset. In my

16:36 Speaker 3: early career, I had many cases where I saw UFOs,

16:41 Speaker 3: some of them up close, you know, all different types

16:47 Speaker 3: dis cigar shapes, squares orbs, you know, triangles, and and

16:59 Speaker 3: you just kind of kept it to yourself. You didn't

17:02 Speaker 3: really say anything. It wasn't until two thousand that we

17:08 Speaker 3: actually got officially involved, and Stan and myself were in

17:16 Speaker 3: a meeting the department. Meeting had been called for reservation wide. Everybody,

17:22 Speaker 3: drive the window off and sit down and hear what

17:25 Speaker 3: the chief ranger had to say. Chief ranger had sent

17:29 Speaker 3: two officers, both of them were rookies, to take a

17:33 Speaker 3: report of the bigfoot that grandma and grandpa had seen

17:38 Speaker 3: step over their corral. And these corrals are you know,

17:43 Speaker 3: about four feet tall, and grab a sheep, tuck it

17:49 Speaker 3: under its arms, step over again and walk off with it.

17:53 Speaker 3: What so Grandma and Grandpa report this and the two

17:57 Speaker 3: rangers that got sent, both of them are kies. Both

18:00 Speaker 3: of them. If you knew them, you'd understand this. Uh.

18:05 Speaker 3: There we call them jokers, you know, they're they're always

18:09 Speaker 3: got some kind of a private little joke going, always

18:13 Speaker 3: giggling and laughing about everything, and they're they're fun to

18:17 Speaker 3: be around, you know, because they're they lighten up the atmosphere. Yeah,

18:23 Speaker 3: but Grandma and Grandpa saw them giggling and laughing about something,

18:27 Speaker 3: and that they thought they were laughing at them. And

18:31 Speaker 3: one thing about Navigo culture is if an elder choose

18:36 Speaker 3: you out, you don't say anything. You just you respect

18:42 Speaker 3: them and you just listen. And they came in and

18:46 Speaker 3: they chewed out our chief ranger, so in turn, you know,

18:50 Speaker 3: they say it rolls.

18:51 Speaker 2: Down hill, down hill.

18:54 Speaker 3: And chewed us out. And then he said, from now on,

18:59 Speaker 3: these cases will be investigated professionally and technically, and reports

19:07 Speaker 3: will be written. Then he turned to Stan and I

19:11 Speaker 3: and he said, and he pointed his finger, I remember that,

19:15 Speaker 3: And he said, and YouTube are going to get all

19:19 Speaker 3: the major cases. And we kind of looked at each other,

19:23 Speaker 3: and I looked at Stan and thought, we've just been

19:26 Speaker 3: all and told, right, and that was it. Now we

19:33 Speaker 3: think that the reason we were picked was that Stan

19:39 Speaker 3: was born on the reservation, but he was raised in Oklahoma,

19:43 Speaker 3: near Tallaquah. I was born and raised in Los Angeles,

19:48 Speaker 3: but spent all my summers on naval reservation, so we

19:54 Speaker 3: had a different upbringing that didn't h buck Navajo religion

20:03 Speaker 3: and traditional thought, so we were the best prepared for it.

20:08 Speaker 3: Plus we were in a position where both of us

20:11 Speaker 3: were in an area called Special Projects. Special projects was

20:19 Speaker 3: created to handle the major investigations that other departments were

20:23 Speaker 3: requesting criminal investigations, and at the time, I was a

20:30 Speaker 3: certified criminal investigator, having gone through the school at Federal

20:36 Speaker 3: Law Enforcement Training Center. So we just said, oh, that's

20:43 Speaker 3: that's cool, you know, and I think we both thought

20:45 Speaker 3: we're going to be the.

20:46 Speaker 1: X Files right with the Navajo Fox Moulder, and you

20:52 Speaker 1: know that that's that's awesome.

20:56 Speaker 3: So after that, we were in almost immediately received our

21:00 Speaker 3: first case, which was over thirty people in the ship

21:07 Speaker 3: Rock area having sightings some Bigfoot, and we went over

21:13 Speaker 3: there and we did basically three day, two night investigation

21:20 Speaker 3: on bigfoot.

21:22 Speaker 1: So I want to stop here and I want to

21:25 Speaker 1: do something because I feel like you have a lot

21:28 Speaker 1: of amazing stories to tell. Let's right there, what does

21:34 Speaker 1: that it look like? What is an investigation? And especially

21:37 Speaker 1: your first investigation. How did you approach a to night

21:42 Speaker 1: three day investigation into a cryptid creature such as quote

21:48 Speaker 1: unquote Bigfoot.

21:52 Speaker 3: Okay, what we did, since we were in charge of

21:54 Speaker 3: this thing, is we set out observation posts at night,

22:00 Speaker 3: were armed with rangers that had Between all the rangers

22:05 Speaker 3: we had three Itt Fleer sets. These are basically twenty

22:13 Speaker 3: thousand dollars Ford looking in for red systems. We also

22:19 Speaker 3: every tactical officer I think there were seven of us,

22:23 Speaker 3: had the PVS fourteen night vision monocular that we also use,

22:33 Speaker 3: So we had officers out at night that could basically

22:37 Speaker 3: see in the night with light amplification. Then during the

22:42 Speaker 3: day these officers would go to the different presidences. What

22:49 Speaker 3: they taught me and criminal investigations, they have an acronym

22:54 Speaker 3: called gooya cod which means get off your a and

22:59 Speaker 3: knock on door. And so we went basically through the

23:03 Speaker 3: whole community knocking on doors and asking people about their

23:07 Speaker 3: sightings or what they had heard or seen, and we

23:11 Speaker 3: got lots and lots of stories. At the end of that,

23:18 Speaker 3: we tracked, we found footprints, we got hair samples off

23:23 Speaker 3: the barbed wire fences that this thing stepped over. We

23:28 Speaker 3: saw one place where a huge, huge log was in

23:32 Speaker 3: a boggy area and this thing had literally picked this

23:37 Speaker 3: log up that was half buried in the mud and

23:42 Speaker 3: just picked it up and flung it to the side,

23:45 Speaker 3: and it ended four or five feet away on one

23:48 Speaker 3: pole of that or one side of the pole, and

23:52 Speaker 3: the big fit experts told us that it was looking

23:56 Speaker 3: for grubs. We found foot track evidence with stride distances

24:03 Speaker 3: of five feet, you know, just huge footprints that we

24:11 Speaker 3: tracked into the brush, into the tamaracks. The whole time

24:15 Speaker 3: we're getting bit up by mosquitoes and stuff. So we

24:19 Speaker 3: didn't find evidence, and we did get DNA samples, and

24:25 Speaker 3: those samples were sent off and came back unknown carnival.

24:31 Speaker 2: Unknown carnival.

24:32 Speaker 1: Now what are you using reservation lab or a US lab.

24:41 Speaker 3: This was a private US lab And you have to

24:45 Speaker 3: understand that when the lab sends this DNA to the database,

24:52 Speaker 3: the database is composed of DNA samples from animals all

24:58 Speaker 3: around the world. Right, So for them to come up

25:02 Speaker 3: with unknown carnivore is amazing. You know that now they're

25:08 Speaker 3: they have miochondrial DNA tests and we didn't run any

25:13 Speaker 3: of that type that we just ran a basic DNA profile.

25:18 Speaker 3: But it should have been it should have showed up.

25:20 Speaker 3: You know, if it was an ABE, it would have

25:22 Speaker 3: told us.

25:22 Speaker 1: What type exactly, exactly exactly. And like I said, the

25:28 Speaker 1: fact that so that is I mean it. People often

25:33 Speaker 1: in this community, the skeptical people in the community, they say,

25:38 Speaker 1: there's no evidence to suggest that there's anything, uh, you know,

25:44 Speaker 1: anything such as cryptids or non human intelligence. But from

25:50 Speaker 1: your first case, you have evidence, like literal evidence of

25:58 Speaker 1: an unknown.

25:59 Speaker 2: Crypt did creature.

26:02 Speaker 1: Who I'm sorry, I don't even think you said what

26:06 Speaker 1: the case like, what actually happened.

26:07 Speaker 2: To prompt the case?

26:09 Speaker 1: But it wasn't the same one with the grandpa and

26:12 Speaker 1: grandma righte.

26:14 Speaker 3: It was a different one.

26:16 Speaker 1: It was a different one. But it's still so this

26:18 Speaker 1: So this thing, you know, stepped over the corral, grabbed

26:23 Speaker 1: an animal and stepped back over, took off and then

26:27 Speaker 1: left hair behind.

26:28 Speaker 2: And that's the hair that you had to analyze.

26:30 Speaker 3: Right well, in the case of the the Shipwrock case. Yeah,

26:36 Speaker 3: actually it was up closer to Bloomfield in New Mexico,

26:41 Speaker 3: which is close to Farmington. This thing stepped over barboy fence,

26:47 Speaker 3: not to get a sheet, but just to travel yeah,

26:53 Speaker 3: and and as it stepped over, the barboy picked up

26:57 Speaker 3: some of the hair and pulled it out. Wow. In

27:01 Speaker 3: the case of the old couple, they had a wooden

27:05 Speaker 3: corral made out of a little uh, you know, like.

27:10 Speaker 2: Poles yep, yep.

27:14 Speaker 1: So okay, quite fascinating, so is it. And again, you've

27:20 Speaker 1: grown up on the Reds, you Stanley's is grown up

27:26 Speaker 1: on the Reds. So again this is kind of like,

27:28 Speaker 1: does this freak you out? Or does this kind of

27:31 Speaker 1: just solidify the fact that there are things that do

27:36 Speaker 1: go bump in the night?

27:38 Speaker 3: Well, like I said, we knew about them for a

27:42 Speaker 3: long long time. The people on the naval reservation they

27:49 Speaker 3: just say, yeah, he's out there, you leave him alone,

27:53 Speaker 3: He'll leave you alone, and that's it. And they'll also

27:57 Speaker 3: tell you never look at it in the eye, because

28:01 Speaker 3: if you look at it in the eyes, it can

28:03 Speaker 3: take your mind over. Now, that statement always puzzled me

28:11 Speaker 3: until I spoke to a medicine man and he told

28:15 Speaker 3: me that Bigfoot had had interactions with the Navo people

28:21 Speaker 3: all the way back to the sixteen hundreds. And he

28:26 Speaker 3: told me a story that just north of Gallup, Navajo's

28:32 Speaker 3: were riding horses because they had gotten them from Spanish

28:36 Speaker 3: that came here looking back when they were looking for Sibola,

28:40 Speaker 3: the seven series cities of gold, and so of course

28:46 Speaker 3: you know, they acquired horses. I don't know how, but

28:49 Speaker 3: they got them these They saw Bigfoot near where they lived.

28:58 Speaker 3: A bunch of men wrote out there on the horses,

29:01 Speaker 3: and they roped it, and they specifically said they used

29:06 Speaker 3: braided horsehair lariats to rope it with. They said that

29:14 Speaker 3: this thing sat down being roped, and in the midst

29:19 Speaker 3: of them spoke to them in Navo and said, if

29:25 Speaker 3: you will take me to Ma Severti and let me go,

29:29 Speaker 3: I will not come this way again and trouble you.

29:33 Speaker 3: Now what's amazing about that story? And later on I

29:37 Speaker 3: thought about this because as an investigator you're trying to

29:41 Speaker 3: put information together to make sense. It occurred to me

29:46 Speaker 3: that Bigfoot is telepathic because Naviho, even for somebody trying

29:55 Speaker 3: to learn it, is a very very difficult language. That's

29:58 Speaker 3: why it was so effected if in World War two

30:01 Speaker 3: as a code and and you know, you just you

30:07 Speaker 3: don't just start speaking. So what happens is that if

30:12 Speaker 3: it looks you in the eye, it can communicate with

30:15 Speaker 3: you in what you perceived to be your own language.

30:22 Speaker 3: But I just find find that amazing.

30:26 Speaker 2: But so wow, wow, So it was it? Because was it?

30:33 Speaker 1: So?

30:33 Speaker 2: So?

30:34 Speaker 1: There was almost like a quid pro quo between early

30:38 Speaker 1: Navo and these cryptid creatures, like, hey, listen, let me go.

30:44 Speaker 2: I wasn't I'm not trying to bother you guys.

30:48 Speaker 1: You know, let me go, and I won't come back

30:51 Speaker 1: this way, we won't have any issues. So would you

30:54 Speaker 1: say that that kind of is that? Essentially what you're

30:59 Speaker 1: saying is there was this kind of quid proquo between

31:03 Speaker 1: whatever this creature is and whatever they are and what

31:06 Speaker 1: they represent and the Navo people.

31:09 Speaker 4: They coexisted, Yeah, they did coexist, and it's my understanding

31:15 Speaker 4: that they rode with it between the horses still rope

31:20 Speaker 4: and went all the way up to Masaverti.

31:24 Speaker 3: Is there anything let it go? There?

31:27 Speaker 1: Is there anything special about masa Verte that we should

31:30 Speaker 1: know about?

31:32 Speaker 3: Masaverti is the where the cliffdwellers lived, and so there's

31:39 Speaker 3: even a more ancient civilization that had been gone probably

31:46 Speaker 3: from ten to seventy AD. They disappeared and they left

31:52 Speaker 3: all their their ruins, just like Chocoal Canyon. So you know,

31:59 Speaker 3: we don't know what significances, but there is something going

32:04 Speaker 3: on there.

32:05 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, So then okay, so this is your I mean,

32:08 Speaker 1: this is if that's your first case, what happens next?

32:15 Speaker 3: Oh well, we had UFO cases. We had a rather

32:20 Speaker 3: famous one where a guy had one land about a

32:24 Speaker 3: quarter mile away from his house and come to his

32:28 Speaker 3: house in the middle of the night and he was

32:32 Speaker 3: looking out through his window because he locked his doors,

32:35 Speaker 3: he knew they were coming. And there's a big, long

32:40 Speaker 3: story involved in that. That's that you can you know,

32:44 Speaker 3: probably here on one of our other deals. But long

32:50 Speaker 3: story short, he was looking through the window and he

32:55 Speaker 3: saw what he called little children. You know, twelve thirty

33:01 Speaker 3: one thirty morning and he's gotten no electricity except for

33:06 Speaker 3: these little little lights solar lights around his house, and

33:11 Speaker 3: he is getting upset. You know, what are these little

33:15 Speaker 3: children doing? He said. They were small, about three and

33:18 Speaker 3: a half four feet tall, They had big heads, they

33:21 Speaker 3: had big black eyes, and they wore a skin tight

33:26 Speaker 3: either white or light gray outfit on them. And you know,

33:35 Speaker 3: he went out the front door and went around the

33:38 Speaker 3: house to because they were in the back, and he

33:42 Speaker 3: tried to turn the corner and surprise them with a flashlight,

33:46 Speaker 3: and he says that he tripped on the concrete steps

33:50 Speaker 3: behind his house and fell down. The guy's, you know,

33:54 Speaker 3: in his mid eighties at the time, and so you know,

33:58 Speaker 3: and I know, any fall like that, yeah, right, And

34:05 Speaker 3: when he looked up, he says, these things were in

34:09 Speaker 3: line and drifting back up the hill like they were

34:14 Speaker 3: straddling something.

34:18 Speaker 1: What drifting up the hill do you mean like, yeah,

34:23 Speaker 1: like levitating off the ground to a degree, or.

34:27 Speaker 3: That's that's correct. What the And they made no sound,

34:35 Speaker 3: you know, as far as i'm I think, you know,

34:39 Speaker 3: I'm just making the supposition is that they they were

34:44 Speaker 3: on some kind of.

34:44 Speaker 2: A vehicle, got it.

34:48 Speaker 3: And if you think about it, our Navy seals do

34:50 Speaker 3: that today. They ride on the tubes exactly.

34:54 Speaker 2: I was just I was literally just going to bring

34:55 Speaker 2: that up.

34:56 Speaker 1: And then, you know, I'm sure you heard about this

34:59 Speaker 1: case that you know, case in what was it Brazil,

35:02 Speaker 1: South America where the.

35:06 Speaker 2: Face peeler things that all not that story? Did you

35:11 Speaker 2: hear that?

35:13 Speaker 3: I'm not sure there's so many of them.

35:16 Speaker 2: Well this was recent, like really recent.

35:18 Speaker 3: Where like oh okay, I don't think I've heard that

35:21 Speaker 3: one yet.

35:22 Speaker 1: Yeah, the government tried to explain it away as mercenaries

35:27 Speaker 1: with jet packs. That was the official narrative that they

35:30 Speaker 1: put forward. It was pirates with jet packs. But these

35:35 Speaker 1: things were coming down and they were trying to take

35:43 Speaker 1: biological material from the the people there, and they called

35:48 Speaker 1: them face peelers. I mean, it's a but again, it

35:52 Speaker 1: kind of just drives me back to this notion that

35:56 Speaker 1: like on like on the Res and in South America,

35:59 Speaker 1: you know, in these places that have very rich and

36:02 Speaker 1: long history, especially history that incorporates their their maybe maybe

36:10 Speaker 1: religious or their creation uh lore, the more they're they're

36:17 Speaker 1: okay with this kind of thing and it doesn't completely

36:21 Speaker 1: shatter their paradigm.

36:22 Speaker 2: It's part of everyday life.

36:27 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's correct, And I'm going to digress just a

36:33 Speaker 3: little bit here. One of the things that we attempted

36:37 Speaker 3: to do is to investigate these cases in a thorough

36:43 Speaker 3: manner using the laws of legal evidence. What we uh

36:49 Speaker 3: look for in statements and everything else. Was to vet

36:55 Speaker 3: the people that we talked to. Some of the questions

36:59 Speaker 3: were very embarrassing, uh naturally, you know, and we would

37:04 Speaker 3: tell them upfront, these are going to be really embarrassing.

37:07 Speaker 3: But we'd ask them, Uh, do you use drugs, you know,

37:11 Speaker 3: recreational drugs, Do you use prescription medication? Do you use alcohol?

37:16 Speaker 3: When was the last time you had any of those?

37:19 Speaker 3: And what kind were they?

37:21 Speaker 2: Uh?

37:22 Speaker 3: During the event, And just like an interrogation, you read

37:28 Speaker 3: body language, and so we we would look for facial picks, expressions,

37:36 Speaker 3: the eyes, even the fuels dilating anything that would tell

37:42 Speaker 3: us that the person is making a misleading statement or

37:47 Speaker 3: or out and out, you know, lie to us. And

37:54 Speaker 3: so it was rather thorough. I was a Class three

38:01 Speaker 3: technical accident investigator, and when you investigate accidents, you don't

38:07 Speaker 3: immediately run to the public and say what did you see? Right,

38:13 Speaker 3: You look at the evidence that's on the roadway, and

38:16 Speaker 3: you interpret that evidence based on your knowledge, and you

38:21 Speaker 3: come up with what happened, and then you go see

38:24 Speaker 3: if the witness statements fit what you see on the

38:28 Speaker 3: roadway as skid marks and scuff marks and goalgees and things.

38:33 Speaker 2: Like that exactly.

38:36 Speaker 1: So you're again you're coming at this from the perspective

38:40 Speaker 1: of if I had to go to court, I could

38:43 Speaker 1: present my case and basically essentially prove beyond a reasonable

38:50 Speaker 1: doubt that something. Maybe you don't know exactly what it is,

38:54 Speaker 1: but you know something is happening.

38:57 Speaker 3: That's correct. You investigate, Uh, you put away personal biases.

39:03 Speaker 3: I mean you personally might think this person's nuts, right

39:08 Speaker 3: you You don't allow that to color uh, what you're investigating.

39:12 Speaker 3: You just let the facts need you and let the

39:16 Speaker 3: cards fall where they will.

39:19 Speaker 1: What is you you talked about that that obviously you

39:23 Speaker 1: talked about that case just a minute ago with the

39:27 Speaker 1: coming going up the hill?

39:30 Speaker 2: What what you know?

39:32 Speaker 1: Obviously we, like I said, we just spoke about the

39:34 Speaker 1: UFO sightings on Nava Hole land. But is there is

39:38 Speaker 1: there one that sticks out the most, something that was

39:42 Speaker 1: like that you could take to court and say we

39:45 Speaker 1: have enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that

39:49 Speaker 1: this this occurred the way the witness is described.

39:55 Speaker 3: You know, I would say the majority of the cases

39:59 Speaker 3: that we work with, you could we can say that

40:02 Speaker 3: there were a tremendous number of what we classified as flybys.

40:08 Speaker 3: This is somebody that sees the UFO over on this

40:12 Speaker 3: side and they say, okay, you know it flew from

40:17 Speaker 3: here here to hear you know, over to here, and

40:21 Speaker 3: I saw it for maybe five seconds and yeah, so

40:28 Speaker 3: those yeah, we can't.

40:33 Speaker 2: Much.

40:33 Speaker 1: You can't do much with with And that's the thing,

40:37 Speaker 1: you know, with these sightings, and you know, fortunately the

40:40 Speaker 1: rise of technology and the ability of people to have

40:44 Speaker 1: a camera in their pocket, but even then we don't get,

40:48 Speaker 1: you know, as much evidence as we think we might.

40:51 Speaker 1: And nowadays we have a different problem, you know, with

40:53 Speaker 1: people faking things. But these flybys, Yeah, I understand that,

40:57 Speaker 1: you know, there's not much. There's not much you can

41:00 Speaker 1: you to investigate that unless you have a time machine,

41:02 Speaker 1: and you know, we don't currently, not that we know.

41:06 Speaker 3: We've also been asked by a lot of people, well

41:10 Speaker 3: how come they don't take cell phone pictures? And the

41:14 Speaker 3: thing is, when you see a UFO flying through the sky,

41:18 Speaker 3: it already looks like a dot, and you take a

41:22 Speaker 3: picture with a cell phone and you try to blow

41:25 Speaker 3: it up, it becomes pixelated.

41:28 Speaker 1: Yeah, for reference, And I didn't mean to cut you off.

41:33 Speaker 1: I think we're having a little bit of an Internet

41:36 Speaker 1: lag over each other, So I apologize for that. But

41:39 Speaker 1: I'll definitely want to be flying you to Boston or

41:42 Speaker 1: me coming there to have an in person discussion after this,

41:46 Speaker 1: because I could talk with you for hours. But like

41:52 Speaker 1: you had just said, next time, just go try to

41:55 Speaker 1: take a picture of the moon, and a clear picture

41:57 Speaker 1: of the moon on a phone.

41:59 Speaker 2: It just it doesn't work.

42:01 Speaker 1: Even though your eyes are seeing this hd beautiful large moon,

42:07 Speaker 1: your camera shows it as just like this small white,

42:11 Speaker 1: bright light.

42:13 Speaker 3: Right. So, like I said earlier, most officers that work

42:20 Speaker 3: on the Navela Nation have had experiences with skin walkers,

42:26 Speaker 3: with UFOs, with all of this bigfoot, and they just

42:31 Speaker 3: don't talk about it. The only difference is that Scan

42:34 Speaker 3: and I were assign these cases on top of our

42:39 Speaker 3: regular work, and we investigated them thoroughly, we wrote reports,

42:46 Speaker 3: and at the end we decided to talk about these things.

42:52 Speaker 3: And the purpose for us speaking about it was just

42:56 Speaker 3: to just to say these things are there as ours,

43:00 Speaker 3: we can tell they're real.

43:05 Speaker 2: Wow. So was there any at any Was there any

43:12 Speaker 2: point where.

43:14 Speaker 1: Leadership didn't want or didn't necessarily agree with you guys

43:20 Speaker 1: talking about it publicly, because obviously that has to come

43:24 Speaker 1: back on the Nava Nation as a as a sovereign,

43:28 Speaker 1: as a sovereign entity, as as a place, as a

43:33 Speaker 1: you know, a thing inside of the United States that

43:38 Speaker 1: has a reputation, and obviously trying to protect that. Did

43:43 Speaker 1: you ever face any like, hey, please don't do this.

43:48 Speaker 3: Well? At our division level, we had other program managers

43:52 Speaker 3: that would laugh and ridicule and stuff like that, but

43:56 Speaker 3: we were actually encouraged and ordered to do these cases,

44:01 Speaker 3: and we did, no matter how fantastical it might seem.

44:08 Speaker 3: I mean, you get somebody that said that they saw

44:11 Speaker 3: a ghost, you know, how do you handle that?

44:14 Speaker 2: You know, yeah, show me exactly.

44:17 Speaker 3: And yet we go do the interviews, take the case.

44:22 Speaker 3: And sometimes the things would happen right in front of us,

44:28 Speaker 3: and we'd go, there's no explanation for that. We had

44:33 Speaker 3: one case where janitors were working and they saw there's

44:38 Speaker 3: a two story building with stairs and up at the

44:42 Speaker 3: second landing there's metal railing, and they saw, you know,

44:48 Speaker 3: they're they're cleaning, so nobody should be in the building.

44:52 Speaker 3: And they saw a woman with a long dress and

44:56 Speaker 3: they said it was a light colored clothing, and she

45:01 Speaker 3: held her arms out at her side, turned sideways and

45:05 Speaker 3: fell through the railing to the floor. Whoa, and and

45:11 Speaker 3: the girl that was working screamed, and the guy came

45:14 Speaker 3: running in the other the other housekeeping, and there was

45:20 Speaker 3: nothing there on the ground. And so obviously they were

45:24 Speaker 3: pretty pretty freaked out after that. They would not work

45:29 Speaker 3: in a building after the sun went down. So this

45:34 Speaker 3: is that's how much. That's how much it affected them.

45:38 Speaker 2: Wow. And and I mean, so.

45:45 Speaker 1: We've okay, it's kind of interesting because in Navajo, like

45:52 Speaker 1: in the in the oral tradition, there are stories of

45:56 Speaker 1: star people, and I do you see the parallels between

46:02 Speaker 1: you know, the mythology and what you know the witnesses

46:06 Speaker 1: that you're talking about are seeing.

46:10 Speaker 3: Well, in the case of ghosts, we think that we

46:16 Speaker 3: we came up with the theory, a working theory for

46:18 Speaker 3: all of this that explains pretty much everything.

46:23 Speaker 2: So it's all all.

46:24 Speaker 1: That being connected because one thing I say a lot,

46:27 Speaker 1: and again I don't mean interject, but I think the UFOs,

46:32 Speaker 1: the cryptids, the paranormal, what we perceive as the paranormal,

46:35 Speaker 1: and the supernatural. I think it's I think they're all

46:39 Speaker 1: linked to some degree. I just don't know how and

46:42 Speaker 1: exactly why. But again I'm kind of with you that

46:46 Speaker 1: there there's there's there's things that overlap between all of them.

46:52 Speaker 3: Well, we started looking at the navel creation story, right,

46:58 Speaker 3: that tells of the navel people starting off in a

47:01 Speaker 3: world of darkness. They moved through several different worlds and

47:06 Speaker 3: into the worlds they described going through a hole in

47:12 Speaker 3: the sky into the next world, and then they end

47:18 Speaker 3: up in this world in which they call the Shining World.

47:23 Speaker 3: And we started looking at that and thinking, what if

47:26 Speaker 3: they're talking about going through a dimensional gate or a portal.

47:31 Speaker 3: And it started to make sense to us because it

47:37 Speaker 3: could account for UFOs popping into existence and disappearing or

47:43 Speaker 3: fading out. It could account for Bigfoot being tracked and

47:47 Speaker 3: the tracks disappear in tractable ground, and it could even

47:53 Speaker 3: account for stories of ghosts and pull their guys activity.

47:58 Speaker 3: And so we started thinking, maybe this is the answer.

48:03 Speaker 3: So we started coming up with that theory in two

48:06 Speaker 3: thousand and six. To this date, we haven't seen anything

48:11 Speaker 3: that tells us otherwise.

48:15 Speaker 1: And now you must you know, I know that there's

48:20 Speaker 1: like and we can get into this as well.

48:23 Speaker 2: I know there is a bit of.

48:27 Speaker 1: I don't want to call it tension, but maybe it is.

48:29 Speaker 1: Maybe tension is the best word. But there's a divide

48:33 Speaker 1: between the Navo, not all native tribes, I would say

48:38 Speaker 1: most Native tribes, and the United States of America. Like

48:43 Speaker 1: the actual entity the United States of America because of

48:47 Speaker 1: obviously how everything was handled in you know, I don't

48:56 Speaker 1: want to get too political or anything like that, but

48:58 Speaker 1: in the beginning, when when the white man first tried

49:02 Speaker 1: came came in, right, everyone knows the story, right, Christopher

49:06 Speaker 1: Columbia and sailed the ocean blue, and we invaded a

49:11 Speaker 1: land and took it over. Now we and then we've relegated, uh,

49:15 Speaker 1: these reservations and put the native people on them and

49:19 Speaker 1: said good enough, right, And the answer is obviously no,

49:24 Speaker 1: it's not good enough.

49:26 Speaker 2: It's a kind of thing makes me think about, you know, that.

49:30 Speaker 1: Story you told with the with the cryptid and the

49:34 Speaker 1: deal that they came to eventually, right, it's like, hey,

49:38 Speaker 1: we're both here. I won't bother you, don't bother me,

49:42 Speaker 1: and we'll just coexist. But that's not exactly how it

49:45 Speaker 1: went down. So you know, there's there's a divide. So

49:51 Speaker 1: is there is there any you know again again, I

49:55 Speaker 1: come back to this. Now, in US government, you're seeing

50:00 Speaker 1: David Grush testify that the US government has non human

50:06 Speaker 1: biologics and craft of non human origin. I mean, does

50:10 Speaker 1: that feel like some sort of vindication when you hear that?

50:14 Speaker 3: Well, everybody is waiting for something that they call disclosure,

50:19 Speaker 3: and everyone in the country is just sitting on the

50:23 Speaker 3: edge of their seat saying, when is the government going

50:25 Speaker 3: to fess up? Now? For myself and stand and for

50:30 Speaker 3: other native tribes, they are not waiting for disclosure. They've

50:38 Speaker 3: known for hundreds of years that these things exist, and

50:45 Speaker 3: so they don't need the government, you know, to tell

50:48 Speaker 3: them anything. And we have a very strong distrust of

50:53 Speaker 3: the US government because you know, of six thousand treaties

50:58 Speaker 3: being made since fourteen ninety two, and not one of

51:02 Speaker 3: them was ever kept. So you know, that's a pretty

51:07 Speaker 3: impressive track record for treaties. And so everybody complains, you

51:14 Speaker 3: know that the government isn't telling the truth. Well, we

51:19 Speaker 3: know that they're not telling the truth, and.

51:22 Speaker 2: It's never been straight with you guys. Yeah, that's right.

51:28 Speaker 3: So the thing is is that this stuff does exist.

51:35 Speaker 3: We have had visitations for hundreds and hundreds of years

51:41 Speaker 3: by star people. And I saw a picture earlier that

51:45 Speaker 3: you had of some dancers they're called Yevich and not

51:53 Speaker 3: that no, those are old Navajo's, but there was one

51:57 Speaker 3: that they had black masks on and yeah, there Now

52:02 Speaker 3: this picture is put up a lot of times and

52:05 Speaker 3: they say, oh, these are skin walkers. You see that

52:08 Speaker 3: on TV. If you get up on the internet. On

52:11 Speaker 3: the internet, this is the pictures you'll find. But these

52:15 Speaker 3: are Yeba dancers. The Yeba represent the Holy People that

52:21 Speaker 3: came to the Navajo to teach them how to live,

52:25 Speaker 3: how to have morals, how to do things, and give

52:31 Speaker 3: them wisdom. Now, the Yava are usually ten to twelve

52:38 Speaker 3: different dancers, and what's interesting about them is that the

52:44 Speaker 3: last one in the line of dancers they always called clown.

52:49 Speaker 3: The clown does everything backwards. He doesn't listen. If they

52:54 Speaker 3: tell him to do something, he does something else. He

52:56 Speaker 3: chases the girls in the crowd, and he's just totally irresponsible. Right.

53:05 Speaker 3: He actually represents the five fingered people, that's you and me.

53:13 Speaker 3: So this is a commentary by the holy beings saying

53:17 Speaker 3: that this is our people. We're the clown. We don't

53:22 Speaker 3: know how to listen, we don't know how to take construction,

53:25 Speaker 3: and we war with each other, we kill each other,

53:29 Speaker 3: We steal from each other and we should because that's

53:34 Speaker 3: not what the Holy people taught us.

53:36 Speaker 1: And we chase after things when it's detrimental to our

53:42 Speaker 1: you know, our path in life, And yeah, I mean

53:45 Speaker 1: that's so, and that in a lot of these oral

53:49 Speaker 1: traditions that have been passed, oral histories that have been

53:52 Speaker 1: passed down throughout the Native's native tribe. I mean a

53:57 Speaker 1: lot of that's not public information. We can't just you know,

54:01 Speaker 1: there's stuff that you know that we won't. We can't

54:06 Speaker 1: and we shouldn't know, and you keep it out of

54:10 Speaker 1: you And I say that sparingly.

54:13 Speaker 2: But the Navo.

54:15 Speaker 1: Do they think, do they protect this information because it's

54:21 Speaker 1: sacred to them, or do they protect it from people

54:24 Speaker 1: because they don't trust what they'll do with that information.

54:29 Speaker 3: Well, it's a combination of not trusting people with that information.

54:35 Speaker 3: And at the same time, you have to understand that

54:39 Speaker 3: from around eighteen sixty four, it was decided that the

54:45 Speaker 3: Native peoples in the United States would be stripped of

54:48 Speaker 3: their culture. There was a theory that America was a

54:54 Speaker 3: great melting pot and if we could just even though

54:58 Speaker 3: we gave me put them on reservation, if we could

55:01 Speaker 3: incorporate them, melt them into society, that these tribes would

55:06 Speaker 3: cease to exist and take over those lands. They found

55:12 Speaker 3: out that America was not a melting pot. It was

55:16 Speaker 3: a stew Pot and there were chunks. You go up

55:20 Speaker 3: to Minnesota, you'll find, you know, European people up there.

55:25 Speaker 3: If you go, you know, you'll find Puerto Ricans, you'll

55:29 Speaker 3: find Italians, you'll find Germans, you'll find you know, every

55:34 Speaker 3: type of ethnicity you can imagine. There's chunks of them

55:38 Speaker 3: in the United States. But we were told, even through religion,

55:43 Speaker 3: that we could not practice our traditional ways, that we

55:48 Speaker 3: had to give them up in the name of religion

55:52 Speaker 3: and learn to be white people. And so that's why

55:58 Speaker 3: they don't trust anybody this knowledge anymore. It's just not

56:02 Speaker 3: open and out there.

56:05 Speaker 2: Right right now.

56:06 Speaker 1: Back to back to the this this story, the creation story,

56:13 Speaker 1: the way you explained it, the way you kind of

56:16 Speaker 1: walked to me, walked us through it, and you said

56:21 Speaker 1: that they came through a hole in the sky, and

56:25 Speaker 1: it kind of the way I pictured it in my

56:28 Speaker 1: head was maybe, yes, maybe an interdimensional portal, but also

56:35 Speaker 1: could it be maybe that they were underground, under in

56:40 Speaker 1: the earth and then you know, coming up through different

56:44 Speaker 1: worlds or potentially you know, I we we hear these

56:47 Speaker 1: stories that.

56:48 Speaker 2: The the.

56:51 Speaker 1: Inside the earth, there's you know that that I don't

56:55 Speaker 1: I don't know I'm losing my train here, but uh,

56:58 Speaker 1: that there's something underneath that these things may be ultra terrestrial,

57:03 Speaker 1: meaning you know, they live amongst us without our knowledge,

57:08 Speaker 1: and could one of those other worlds be right under

57:11 Speaker 1: us and we not just we not know it.

57:15 Speaker 3: There are stories all Indian tribes have a an internal

57:24 Speaker 3: history that they recount of a flood. Now this is

57:28 Speaker 3: all around the world. And in the naval story, they

57:36 Speaker 3: climb up on the top of shipwreck and that saves

57:41 Speaker 3: the people. The Hopies have a story of being taken

57:46 Speaker 3: by the ant people underground and the entrance is sealed.

57:51 Speaker 3: So I think a lot of those stories probably come

57:54 Speaker 3: from different Indian tribes that may have been taken underground

57:58 Speaker 3: during this time. So there.

58:01 Speaker 1: So yeah, so even in Native American, you know, again

58:05 Speaker 1: it's it's not one size fits all. It's different regions,

58:10 Speaker 1: different tribes, different perspectives, different stories. But again, I like

58:14 Speaker 1: that you bring up the flood, you know, because in

58:17 Speaker 1: in school quote unquote, they taught us that you know,

58:23 Speaker 1: the Natives had no zero, had zero interaction with anyone

58:31 Speaker 1: from the other side of the world. That's the same

58:34 Speaker 1: goes with you know, the Mayans and you know, uh,

58:41 Speaker 1: Sumerians like those, They just they didn't they didn't mingle,

58:45 Speaker 1: there was there was no connection. Yet we see the

58:49 Speaker 1: same story about a flood told and you know, with

58:53 Speaker 1: your archaeology archaeological background, you must know this as well.

58:59 Speaker 2: In the fossil record, it.

59:02 Speaker 1: Shows that there is there's some sort of cataclysm that happened.

59:06 Speaker 2: It happened around.

59:08 Speaker 1: Thirteen thousand years ago and seems to be part of

59:14 Speaker 1: that younger dry Is impact. And I mean, what do

59:18 Speaker 1: you think about all that?

59:19 Speaker 2: Do you? I mean, is that something that you do

59:22 Speaker 2: kind of subscribe to and think is accurate.

59:28 Speaker 3: One of the things I've found from working in the

59:31 Speaker 3: archaeological field is that archaeologists go to college, their professor

59:38 Speaker 3: teaches them that this is the method, and this is

59:45 Speaker 3: what I ascribed to. And so in every archaeological report

59:54 Speaker 3: that they're doing where they're going to do a dig

59:58 Speaker 3: and they're putting this paper together, it usually has a

1:00:01 Speaker 3: sentence in there that says we expect to find And

1:00:09 Speaker 3: so they're talking about, you know, what culture they're they're

1:00:12 Speaker 3: digging up, and they already have a preconceived idea of

1:00:18 Speaker 3: the things that they're expecting to find based on what

1:00:21 Speaker 3: their professors taught them. If they find anything unusual in there,

1:00:26 Speaker 3: they don't you know, really put it down as a

1:00:31 Speaker 3: discovery to be investigated further. They'll just say religious object. Right,

1:00:37 Speaker 3: And but we have found, uh, the archaeologists have found

1:00:44 Speaker 3: domesticated turkeys with pens. They've found parents, now where the

1:00:51 Speaker 3: parents come from South America. They found a city from

1:00:57 Speaker 3: South America that has a greenish tinged to it that's

1:01:02 Speaker 3: only found around Mexico. They found pottery from South America

1:01:06 Speaker 3: and shells, so you know, there were trade routes, extensive

1:01:13 Speaker 3: trade routes going all through what is now the United

1:01:18 Speaker 3: States and Canada and South America and that. And then

1:01:25 Speaker 3: there's there's evidence, you know, even the Chinese anchors that

1:01:29 Speaker 3: were found off the coast of California that explained, you know,

1:01:35 Speaker 3: back a lot earlier that there was interaction and monolithic

1:01:40 Speaker 3: mounds that were built, you know, in in the areas

1:01:44 Speaker 3: of Florida all the way to to through the Gulf

1:01:48 Speaker 3: Coast area. So lots of information that looks at it

1:01:54 Speaker 3: and says there could have been a lot of interaction

1:01:57 Speaker 3: going on.

1:01:59 Speaker 1: And do you I mean it seems to me, you know, again,

1:02:04 Speaker 1: to me as a you know, traditional white man.

1:02:09 Speaker 2: Right.

1:02:11 Speaker 1: It seems to me that you know, we come into

1:02:15 Speaker 1: this world, at least us right now, We come into

1:02:21 Speaker 1: this world and we are taught from an early age

1:02:25 Speaker 1: that everything is kind of it's black and white, right,

1:02:29 Speaker 1: it's either it's either there or it isn't right. And

1:02:36 Speaker 1: it's not until it's not until you have one of

1:02:40 Speaker 1: these experiences, whether it be spiritual, whether it be otherworldly.

1:02:46 Speaker 1: It's not until you actually go up against something that

1:02:48 Speaker 1: you can't explain. And trust me, your brain does everything

1:02:53 Speaker 1: in its power to try to explain it away and

1:02:57 Speaker 1: try to rationalize it.

1:02:59 Speaker 2: But there's things that I it forces you almost to see.

1:03:07 Speaker 1: That there are so much more there's so much more

1:03:10 Speaker 1: gray than we were ever ever let to believe.

1:03:14 Speaker 2: And I think it almost was by design.

1:03:18 Speaker 1: Two, Because if everyone had psychic abilities, and if everyone

1:03:23 Speaker 1: had all the knowledge of of of of you know,

1:03:30 Speaker 1: this really rich and amazing free energy and all and

1:03:36 Speaker 1: and everything that we seem.

1:03:37 Speaker 2: To to uh to talk about in this community.

1:03:42 Speaker 1: It seems if we all had these you know, abilities,

1:03:45 Speaker 1: that the world would be a radically different place.

1:03:48 Speaker 2: Uh.

1:03:48 Speaker 1: And and you know, the there would be no power vacuum, right,

1:03:53 Speaker 1: So it seems like we're almost being cattle were heard,

1:04:00 Speaker 1: they're hurting the general population and after.

1:04:05 Speaker 3: We're we're being led by fear. You know. That's that's

1:04:11 Speaker 3: why you see terrible headlines in the in the in

1:04:15 Speaker 3: the news every day. If if you were to go

1:04:20 Speaker 3: to the UK, you'd get a whole different view of

1:04:23 Speaker 3: what the United States stands for. Yeah, and it's very different.

1:04:29 Speaker 3: And to a lot of people, we are the ugly Americans. Yeah,

1:04:35 Speaker 3: you know, there there's so much of this stuff that

1:04:40 Speaker 3: and we are, in effect, we are exactly what we've

1:04:46 Speaker 3: been taught and what we believe, and and a lot

1:04:52 Speaker 3: of times there's no changing that. We don't want to

1:04:54 Speaker 3: look up. People do not look up at the sky

1:04:59 Speaker 3: now in the cities, granted you can't see the sky

1:05:02 Speaker 3: because of all light pollution, but if you ever go

1:05:06 Speaker 3: out to the desert and see the sky, you know,

1:05:10 Speaker 3: it's amazing to understand that Navajo's in the past have

1:05:15 Speaker 3: Navaju names for consolations we cannot see with the naked eye.

1:05:21 Speaker 2: Wow, is that really? Is that true?

1:05:24 Speaker 3: Yeah? And they didn't have telescopes back then, so they

1:05:29 Speaker 3: have deep knowledge.

1:05:31 Speaker 2: Of this stuff right right.

1:05:34 Speaker 1: And and then I mean you talk about like the

1:05:36 Speaker 1: Dogon tribe, I said in the intro, the Dogon and

1:05:40 Speaker 1: the knowledge of the serious Star, serious b which isn't visible,

1:05:46 Speaker 1: like it's like.

1:05:47 Speaker 2: Who is coming down? Who is?

1:05:50 Speaker 1: Who's giving them this information? Who's and and then you

1:05:56 Speaker 1: start looking at these creation myths and you start to

1:05:59 Speaker 1: get the answer. And again it seems deliberate in nature,

1:06:04 Speaker 1: that deliberate in its nature that we're taught that none

1:06:07 Speaker 1: of these places ever talked to each other, they never

1:06:10 Speaker 1: had any interaction, because if they did, if they did,

1:06:15 Speaker 1: then it changes everything. It changes history, Everything needs to

1:06:19 Speaker 1: be written rewritten. And they build these same sort of

1:06:24 Speaker 1: structures every everywhere across the earth, and they seem to

1:06:29 Speaker 1: build it in hopes or in anticipation of something coming back,

1:06:37 Speaker 1: the thing that taught it right, like almost like what

1:06:40 Speaker 1: they would consider their god. You know, insert cultural god here,

1:06:44 Speaker 1: whether it's the sky people, the ant beings, the Anunaki,

1:06:51 Speaker 1: it's all seems to be something similar. It's a non

1:06:57 Speaker 1: human intelligence. So have we just does the word become

1:07:01 Speaker 1: blurred between God and what we call alien.

1:07:06 Speaker 3: That could very well be you know, we we look

1:07:11 Speaker 3: at anything that probably has a higher technology than we have.

1:07:18 Speaker 3: Everything they do seems like it's magic, yep, because we

1:07:24 Speaker 3: don't understand it. But you can draw a parallel and say,

1:07:30 Speaker 3: what if I went to a ant mount and I

1:07:36 Speaker 3: pointed to my digital watch here and said, let me

1:07:41 Speaker 3: explain to you how a digital watch works. There have

1:07:46 Speaker 3: no comprehension to start with with an ant mount. Maybe

1:07:51 Speaker 3: that's how the aliens view us, as you know, bacteria

1:07:55 Speaker 3: covering the earth.

1:07:56 Speaker 1: And yeah, I tend to not think that. I tend

1:08:02 Speaker 1: to not think that because I think now I'd really

1:08:07 Speaker 1: like to hear what the navo And you know, so

1:08:11 Speaker 1: what is consciousness? I I I this question is it's

1:08:16 Speaker 1: very hard to ask and to answer so in your

1:08:21 Speaker 1: best words with with given what you know in your background. Uh,

1:08:27 Speaker 1: consciousness seems to be something that's unique. Uh, and and

1:08:32 Speaker 1: you know doesn't. Yeah, I think it's special, right, I

1:08:37 Speaker 1: think all life is special. But I think again, Uh,

1:08:42 Speaker 1: we are conscious in a different way than say a

1:08:45 Speaker 1: dog is. That's not to say a dog is stupid either,

1:08:48 Speaker 1: but we you know dolphins, Some say dolphins are smarter

1:08:53 Speaker 1: than people. Well, they're not building cities as far as

1:08:56 Speaker 1: we know under under the water. So to get to

1:08:59 Speaker 1: a degree that we've gotten too. We've got to be

1:09:01 Speaker 1: special in some sort of way. And so what do

1:09:04 Speaker 1: you what do you think is consciousness and does it survive?

1:09:07 Speaker 1: Is it eternal?

1:09:10 Speaker 3: Well, we have we call it spirit exactly, and we

1:09:15 Speaker 3: and we have an ability to decide what we're going

1:09:20 Speaker 3: to do. You know that there's there's religions that teach

1:09:26 Speaker 3: that evil must be destroyed. The naval people and other

1:09:34 Speaker 3: tribes look at it as that evil exists along with

1:09:38 Speaker 3: good and it's up to you to have a moral

1:09:41 Speaker 3: compass and decide which way you're going to lean on that.

1:09:47 Speaker 3: So there is choice and in that choice, you know,

1:09:52 Speaker 3: one of the things that we found out because we

1:09:55 Speaker 3: had in doing ghost investigations, uh, there were a lot

1:10:01 Speaker 3: of questions, are these things just repeating what they did

1:10:05 Speaker 3: in the past? Can they actually interact with us? And

1:10:09 Speaker 3: we found evidence to suggest that they can actually interact

1:10:13 Speaker 3: with us. We also started looking at this idea that

1:10:22 Speaker 3: the spirit or what we call spirit or consciousness is energy.

1:10:30 Speaker 3: And interestingly enough, when you die, energy cannot be destroyed,

1:10:36 Speaker 3: nor can it can change state. But it can't be

1:10:41 Speaker 3: destroyed nor can it be created.

1:10:44 Speaker 2: So it always permits this right and it always.

1:10:50 Speaker 3: So this explains how places can be haunted because when

1:10:55 Speaker 3: people die, especially violent deaths, those energy leave and they

1:11:01 Speaker 3: attach to inanimate objects like geologic surfaces. They can attach

1:11:08 Speaker 3: to inanimate objects, you know, dolls and other things and

1:11:15 Speaker 3: just be in the vicinity. And so the NAVO they

1:11:19 Speaker 3: don't talk about things like that, right, yeah, just momentarily

1:11:28 Speaker 3: they don't talk about stuff like that because to even

1:11:31 Speaker 3: mention a deceased name is to invite them to come back.

1:11:36 Speaker 3: You don't go to the graveyard and cry, because that's

1:11:40 Speaker 3: telling them you want them to come home with you.

1:11:46 Speaker 3: So you know, you may go to the services themselves.

1:11:51 Speaker 3: You may go to the graveside is considered a taboo,

1:11:56 Speaker 3: and after that you don't speak their names ever again,

1:12:00 Speaker 3: because to speak their names is to invite them to

1:12:03 Speaker 3: come back.

1:12:04 Speaker 1: To invoke them in. Yes, right, that makes sense. That

1:12:08 Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense.

1:12:10 Speaker 3: There's a lot of practicality to it. Even with inevitable clans,

1:12:16 Speaker 3: and there's something like thirty something clans. Each clan had

1:12:21 Speaker 3: a group of people within the clan to handle the burials.

1:12:28 Speaker 3: You didn't touch the dead bodies by yourself. You had

1:12:33 Speaker 3: other people come in kind of like your clan funeral

1:12:36 Speaker 3: director right, you have specialized people to come in and

1:12:41 Speaker 3: handle that burial for you, and that's all they did.

1:12:45 Speaker 1: That's a really really so you know almost in a

1:12:50 Speaker 1: way that ties with something again that I think where

1:12:55 Speaker 1: you know you've been to Skinwalker Ranch a few times, yes,

1:13:00 Speaker 1: And you know I've had this theory bouncing around because

1:13:04 Speaker 1: I grew up in I am in Massachusetts. Obviously, you

1:13:10 Speaker 1: know King Phillip's War happened here between the natives and

1:13:15 Speaker 1: early the early settlers, So that happens then you know

1:13:23 Speaker 1: the Salem witch Trials happened. There's a place called the

1:13:27 Speaker 1: Bridgewater Triangle. There's obviously Salem where the witch trials took place.

1:13:32 Speaker 1: But witchcraft was I mean people were being accused of

1:13:35 Speaker 1: it throughout the region and you know where these atrocities occurred.

1:13:40 Speaker 1: It seems the land itself holds almost like a resonant

1:13:44 Speaker 1: frequency of like this really impactful event because you know,

1:13:52 Speaker 1: I've talked about this in the show before. But you know,

1:13:54 Speaker 1: there was even a study done where they spoke to

1:13:56 Speaker 1: water and the when they froze it. Anything that you

1:14:00 Speaker 1: know had a good connotation that they spoke to it

1:14:03 Speaker 1: because they spoke to it before they froze it, and

1:14:05 Speaker 1: anything that had a positive connotation the crystals would be

1:14:08 Speaker 1: very beautiful. Anything that had a negative connotation like hatred

1:14:13 Speaker 1: or war frozen. These really irregular, unnatural ways. So what

1:14:19 Speaker 1: they what their conclusion was is that your thoughts, your actions,

1:14:25 Speaker 1: and your intent they affect the matter around you. So

1:14:31 Speaker 1: in essence, your your your thoughts, and your intent matter

1:14:35 Speaker 1: literally they literally affect the matter around you. That's why

1:14:40 Speaker 1: so many people recall, you know, having dreams about the

1:14:44 Speaker 1: planes hitting the towers on nine to eleven, or premonitions

1:14:47 Speaker 1: of something like that.

1:14:49 Speaker 2: So there's definitely a connection somewhere.

1:14:54 Speaker 3: We can manifest things just by speaking. And you know,

1:15:02 Speaker 3: we often tell people that words have power, and that's

1:15:08 Speaker 3: why they call it spelling. You can create a spell

1:15:13 Speaker 3: just based on words.

1:15:17 Speaker 2: Holy shit.

1:15:19 Speaker 3: So if you think about it, you can manifest. But

1:15:24 Speaker 3: if you have ill intentions toward people, you can also

1:15:29 Speaker 3: manifest bad things for them.

1:15:32 Speaker 2: You just blew my mind.

1:15:35 Speaker 1: I'd never put that together, spelling a spell.

1:15:43 Speaker 2: Holy shit.

1:15:44 Speaker 1: I'm sorry for the abrupt, like what the fuck moment,

1:15:47 Speaker 1: but what the what?

1:15:50 Speaker 2: What the hell?

1:15:53 Speaker 1: What that is such a and that like witchcraft? Right,

1:15:57 Speaker 1: I'm sure you you dealt with this on the ranch,

1:15:59 Speaker 1: I mean on the on the the res.

1:16:03 Speaker 2: You know, there's this this show that I was watching.

1:16:08 Speaker 1: About It's It's Dark Skies and it's it's uh Leopold, Joliopold.

1:16:16 Speaker 2: And Jim Chi.

1:16:17 Speaker 1: Uh you remind me a lot of obviously Jim ch

1:16:20 Speaker 1: Uh in your ways. That show really got me back

1:16:24 Speaker 1: into wanting to talk to you. And uh so I

1:16:27 Speaker 1: will say that that show is kind of what like

1:16:29 Speaker 1: sent me on the path of trying to find you

1:16:31 Speaker 1: again because I had always been really fascinated with you.

1:16:35 Speaker 3: But yeah, we actually got uh Stan and the chief

1:16:39 Speaker 3: Ranger got to sit down with Tony Hillerman in person

1:16:43 Speaker 3: and meet with him, and the informed him that Jim

1:16:48 Speaker 3: Chi should have never been a police officer, never a ranger,

1:16:55 Speaker 3: because police officers. I've seen police officers literally turn the

1:17:01 Speaker 3: other way and walk away from something because it was

1:17:05 Speaker 3: an archaeological side or had some taboo with traditional Navil

1:17:11 Speaker 3: belief skinwalkers. You know, they won't even talk about them

1:17:17 Speaker 3: except amongst themselves. They'll tell you all kinds of amazing

1:17:21 Speaker 3: things and encounters, but you know, they generally keep quiet.

1:17:29 Speaker 3: So we've had situations like that, and so if you

1:17:34 Speaker 3: look at Tony Hillerman's last book that he wrote. In

1:17:37 Speaker 3: the forward he mentions the Navo Rangers, And you know,

1:17:43 Speaker 3: so I'm in the process of writing a book right now.

1:17:47 Speaker 3: And the title, the working title is called Navo Arranger.

1:17:51 Speaker 3: And underneath a really handsome picture of a ranger probably

1:17:57 Speaker 3: won't be somebody wearing us the bear hat, uh with

1:18:02 Speaker 3: his eyes shaded in a desert background. And underneath it'll

1:18:08 Speaker 3: say the true story of the real Jim Chee.

1:18:12 Speaker 2: That's a really yeah, that's really good. So you have.

1:18:18 Speaker 1: You you And because in that show, and I wanted

1:18:22 Speaker 1: to ask this because in that show, it's there.

1:18:26 Speaker 2: They like they just touch that line.

1:18:33 Speaker 1: They and they don't go over it, like the in

1:18:37 Speaker 1: both seasons. It seems like it got a little bit

1:18:39 Speaker 1: more in in in each season. But like that paranormal aspect,

1:18:45 Speaker 1: they they definitely imply with witchcraft a lot, but they

1:18:50 Speaker 1: don't overtly incorporate it in in in the overall story

1:18:57 Speaker 1: aside from like you just kind of knowing, like they

1:19:00 Speaker 1: like they gave you that wink like pay you know,

1:19:04 Speaker 1: pay attention to what's going on.

1:19:07 Speaker 2: So you know, that's what really like I really enjoyed.

1:19:13 Speaker 1: About the story, but I think they need to take

1:19:14 Speaker 1: a side because I mean either include because there was

1:19:18 Speaker 1: like a great opportunity.

1:19:19 Speaker 2: So did you ever come across like literal witchcraft?

1:19:24 Speaker 3: Oh yes, yes, Na, witchcraft is what we call it.

1:19:28 Speaker 3: So what I'm not I'm not referring to wickens, you know, which,

1:19:35 Speaker 3: which is a whole different subject. So don't don't get

1:19:38 Speaker 3: me wrong. We say witchcraft, but we're referring to naviho witchcraft.

1:19:44 Speaker 3: Or in the naval tradition, first man and first woman

1:19:51 Speaker 3: were taught by the Holy people how to shape change

1:19:56 Speaker 3: and uh. This allowed them to get close to h

1:20:00 Speaker 3: deer and other animals to take them for sustenance. Later

1:20:05 Speaker 3: on they used it in times of war to go

1:20:10 Speaker 3: spy on the enemy. Now somewhere later it became a

1:20:18 Speaker 3: source of negative we call it negative energy, where somebody

1:20:27 Speaker 3: just devotes themselves completely to this and people die and

1:20:35 Speaker 3: poisons are made. They're able to shape shift into other things,

1:20:41 Speaker 3: other animals, and is still prevalent to this day. In podcasts,

1:20:47 Speaker 3: we tell people do not go looking for them because

1:20:52 Speaker 3: if you do, you may find them and it's not

1:20:57 Speaker 3: going to be the outcome. Yeah.

1:21:00 Speaker 2: So skinkers are all skin walkers witches.

1:21:08 Speaker 3: Uh yeah, in the the idea of naval witchcraft, there's

1:21:12 Speaker 3: several different types. There is a somebody that just learns

1:21:20 Speaker 3: how to shape shift and that's all they do, okay,

1:21:23 Speaker 3: and you know, so they go out they terrorize whole communities.

1:21:30 Speaker 3: That that's a source of power. Uh. You have a

1:21:34 Speaker 3: type that are medicinal. They know everything about plants and

1:21:39 Speaker 3: how to make poisons and how to make healing things.

1:21:43 Speaker 3: There are others that do what we call frenzy witchcraft,

1:21:47 Speaker 3: which is much more involved. This involves curses on people.

1:21:55 Speaker 3: This involves digging up dead bodies and stealing the jewelry

1:21:59 Speaker 3: and so in the jewelry and border towns away from

1:22:03 Speaker 3: the reservation. And you know which is very very taboo.

1:22:09 Speaker 1: You know, right you said even going to the graves

1:22:14 Speaker 1: and right so if if and if you then you

1:22:17 Speaker 1: go start digging up the grave, I mean you you've

1:22:21 Speaker 1: got to be working. And and anyone like people get

1:22:26 Speaker 1: I get upset with people because if you don't think

1:22:29 Speaker 1: evil exists, like real pure evil evil, you can feel

1:22:34 Speaker 1: that when you walk in a place or you see

1:22:36 Speaker 1: you know this certain person, that the room changes literally

1:22:43 Speaker 1: or that evil you can feel if you don't think

1:22:47 Speaker 1: that's real, then you are living a lie. You're you're

1:22:54 Speaker 1: or you're you're happily naive about it. How many times, working,

1:23:01 Speaker 1: you know, with the rangers, did you go into a

1:23:04 Speaker 1: place and feel, this is not this is not a

1:23:08 Speaker 1: good place.

1:23:09 Speaker 2: I should not be here.

1:23:12 Speaker 3: There were many times that happened, and you know, we

1:23:15 Speaker 3: call it our sixth sense. When you're in law enforcement,

1:23:20 Speaker 3: you start to rely on it a lot. And what

1:23:25 Speaker 3: we found, I mean, I'm going down the hallway. This

1:23:29 Speaker 3: kid had shot a lot of you know, shot at

1:23:33 Speaker 3: a lot of people, trying to kill them, and we

1:23:36 Speaker 3: were after him, and he took off from the house

1:23:39 Speaker 3: and took off into the back country. So they had

1:23:42 Speaker 3: a big man hunt going. And I mentioned a couple

1:23:46 Speaker 3: of the other officers. I says, we need to check

1:23:48 Speaker 3: the house again. I just felt that he might have

1:23:52 Speaker 3: gone back to the house. So we're searching the house

1:23:56 Speaker 3: again and I'm going down the hallway to the bedroom.

1:24:01 Speaker 3: And as I got halfway down that hallway, something told

1:24:07 Speaker 3: me don't go there, and I started backing up and

1:24:12 Speaker 3: I got back to the end of the hallway and

1:24:15 Speaker 3: I mentioned, you know, when you're doing swat work, you

1:24:17 Speaker 3: do a lot of hand signals. Everything silent, and I

1:24:23 Speaker 3: told the other officers, I said, come up here, I says,

1:24:26 Speaker 3: I can't see. I've got something further up the hall.

1:24:30 Speaker 3: We got in there and we called to him by

1:24:33 Speaker 3: his name and told him, we know you're in there,

1:24:36 Speaker 3: come out and leave the gun behind it. You know,

1:24:41 Speaker 3: after a couple of minutes, that guy came out of

1:24:45 Speaker 3: the back room and he had been armed with a pistol,

1:24:51 Speaker 3: and we took him into custody. But if I had

1:24:54 Speaker 3: gone just beep popping down that hall and gone in there,

1:24:58 Speaker 3: I would have explore myself and what we call the

1:25:02 Speaker 3: fatal funnel, which is where the doorway is. If you

1:25:07 Speaker 3: want to ambush somebody, that's the place to do it, right,

1:25:10 Speaker 3: And so you know, I didn't want to get shot,

1:25:16 Speaker 3: even if I did have a vest. So, but things

1:25:20 Speaker 3: like that happen all the time, and you start to

1:25:23 Speaker 3: rely on that ability that you get just to just

1:25:28 Speaker 3: to survive.

1:25:29 Speaker 2: Sometimes, right, Right, So what do you take of you know,

1:25:36 Speaker 2: are you are? You did grow up?

1:25:40 Speaker 1: So you said you spent time off the res during

1:25:44 Speaker 1: the year, and then you spent summers on the res, right,

1:25:50 Speaker 1: So are you are you a religious man John.

1:25:55 Speaker 3: Actually I am. I grew up in a church. It

1:26:01 Speaker 3: was an independent church, but it was a native church

1:26:04 Speaker 3: in Los Angeles, and this church is more closely aligned

1:26:10 Speaker 3: with Southern Baptist Doctor. So after that, from nineteen seventy

1:26:18 Speaker 3: six to seventy eight, I went to a Bible school

1:26:25 Speaker 3: where I studied theology. I studied the Latin Vulgate, I

1:26:31 Speaker 3: studied the greep subject to it. So I did a

1:26:36 Speaker 3: lot of study in that area. All the people I

1:26:39 Speaker 3: went to school with became preachers, and I went into

1:26:43 Speaker 3: law enforcement instead. So I do have a background. And

1:26:49 Speaker 3: it's always fun because I hear people say in the

1:26:52 Speaker 3: comments sometimes you need Jesus Christ you're going to have

1:26:59 Speaker 3: And you know, I could argue doctor, and I could

1:27:06 Speaker 3: go into apologetics, and you know, and and the reason

1:27:12 Speaker 3: that I still I'm born again Christian is because I

1:27:16 Speaker 3: cannot refute two things. And if you wanted to destroy Christianity,

1:27:23 Speaker 3: all you have to do is refute two things. Number one,

1:27:27 Speaker 3: the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Number two, the conversion of

1:27:32 Speaker 3: Saul of Tarsus to the apostle Paul on the road Damascus.

1:27:39 Speaker 3: If you can refute either one of those, you will

1:27:42 Speaker 3: have destroyed Christianity mhm, and nobody can refute it. They've

1:27:48 Speaker 3: had people like doctor Simon Greenley, who puts Harvard Law

1:27:53 Speaker 3: School on the map, take his own money and do

1:27:57 Speaker 3: his own research and came back and said evidence such

1:28:02 Speaker 3: as the resurrection of Christ cannot be disputed in any

1:28:07 Speaker 3: court of law. And he ended up becoming a Christian

1:28:11 Speaker 3: because of his work. So I look at that kind

1:28:15 Speaker 3: of stuff and that's you know there, there's there's nothing

1:28:20 Speaker 3: there now. Doctrine wise, you can get into a lot

1:28:24 Speaker 3: of different arguments right now. Every every group has you know,

1:28:30 Speaker 3: every group has a different doctor.

1:28:33 Speaker 1: Does it conflict does does does your do your religious beliefs?

1:28:40 Speaker 1: Do they conflict with Navajo tradition or anything like that.

1:28:48 Speaker 3: I am very respectful a naval tradition because I've had

1:28:53 Speaker 3: to work within those confines for so long. Ah, I

1:28:59 Speaker 3: do not put it down. There's a lot of it

1:29:02 Speaker 3: that's practical. I will use smudging and smoke myself. I

1:29:09 Speaker 3: will carry arrowheads for protection. I have turquoise on my

1:29:17 Speaker 3: bracelet on my ring for that purpose. Turquoise protects traditionally

1:29:23 Speaker 3: in navoculture. So there are a lot of things Smudging,

1:29:29 Speaker 3: if you notice that even the Catholic Church does a

1:29:33 Speaker 3: form of that. They have an altar boy walking down

1:29:36 Speaker 3: the middle of the aisle carrying an urn on chains

1:29:41 Speaker 3: and he swings it back and forth with the smoke.

1:29:46 Speaker 3: So smudging has been used all through history, through different cultures,

1:29:51 Speaker 3: and now they're finding out that sweet grass, sage, and

1:29:55 Speaker 3: cedar have a medicinal property there anti microbial. I just

1:30:04 Speaker 3: like the smell. But but I pray and and I

1:30:09 Speaker 3: use an eagle feather to just smudge with. And when

1:30:13 Speaker 3: I'm done, I say, in the name of Jesus Christ.

1:30:18 Speaker 1: So you're you're it's it's like your you.

1:30:23 Speaker 2: You're bringing it together and you're Yeah. I like that.

1:30:27 Speaker 2: I do.

1:30:28 Speaker 1: I like that because I think again, I think there's

1:30:32 Speaker 1: what people what people often will do is say it's

1:30:35 Speaker 1: either you have to be one or the other. I

1:30:38 Speaker 1: don't think that that that's the case. And I don't

1:30:40 Speaker 1: think that if you know, I've had my own UFO

1:30:48 Speaker 1: like that's in bolt UFO sighting, right. But then when

1:30:53 Speaker 1: I was in the room when my mother died, I

1:30:55 Speaker 1: had what you definitely call or label something more of

1:31:01 Speaker 1: a paranormal supernatural experience, and uh, you know, I'm grateful

1:31:07 Speaker 1: to have had both of those because you know, again

1:31:10 Speaker 1: it tells me that, uh again, the world.

1:31:14 Speaker 2: Isn't black and white, right, and I was.

1:31:16 Speaker 1: I was lucky enough to grow up in that kind

1:31:18 Speaker 1: of environment where you know, I wasn't shaped into some

1:31:22 Speaker 1: something or someone that was unable and unwilling some some

1:31:28 Speaker 1: people are just unwilling to allow for the idea of

1:31:34 Speaker 1: anything other than the paradigm they live in. So the

1:31:39 Speaker 1: thought of of angels or demons or aliens, all of

1:31:46 Speaker 1: that is quote unquote nonsense, when in fact it's it's

1:31:52 Speaker 1: it's quite the opposite. It's not nonsense. It's talked about

1:31:56 Speaker 1: by every culture. It's talked about. I mean, it's there's

1:32:02 Speaker 1: so much, there's so much, so much I could get into, But.

1:32:08 Speaker 3: Is it.

1:32:09 Speaker 2: Do you think.

1:32:13 Speaker 1: These beings that have have come here that they are

1:32:21 Speaker 1: are responsible for us being here, like like in a

1:32:26 Speaker 1: way that they played a direct role in our creation

1:32:31 Speaker 1: to some degree.

1:32:34 Speaker 3: If you really think about it. They came here to

1:32:39 Speaker 3: provide knowledge, moral knowledge, knowledge of how to live, h

1:32:46 Speaker 3: knowledge of what not to do. There's just so much

1:32:53 Speaker 3: and that stuff you can't gain it just by yourself,

1:32:56 Speaker 3: you know, you just can't look up in the sky

1:32:58 Speaker 3: and say, I suddenly know everything it has to be

1:33:03 Speaker 3: built on. And so I think that there was a long,

1:33:07 Speaker 3: long period of time where this knowledge was possessed and

1:33:15 Speaker 3: it wasn't just one one meeting, It was a whole

1:33:19 Speaker 3: series of stuff. And you know, I'm thinking about what

1:33:24 Speaker 3: you were talking about earlier. One of the reasons I

1:33:29 Speaker 3: think that governments do not want to talk about, you know,

1:33:35 Speaker 3: entities is that in some ways we rely on flags

1:33:43 Speaker 3: and countries and we go to war with other countries

1:33:46 Speaker 3: because we had political aspirations, and war is politics carried

1:33:53 Speaker 3: out by other means. So, you know, we have this

1:33:58 Speaker 3: situation in the world today where we have enemies that

1:34:06 Speaker 3: are traditional enemies, and if we if there was suddenly

1:34:14 Speaker 3: some other race of people coming from outside of our world,

1:34:21 Speaker 3: all these countries would disappear. We would all be united.

1:34:26 Speaker 2: As a white.

1:34:32 Speaker 3: You know. So it's it's a way of control to

1:34:36 Speaker 3: say that there are no other enterities out there other

1:34:39 Speaker 3: than us. Where where it? You know?

1:34:44 Speaker 2: And yeah, top of the food team we are.

1:34:48 Speaker 3: I think that is a doctor and aside, right.

1:34:52 Speaker 1: Right, right right, and you know, one of the and

1:34:56 Speaker 1: that's one of the things I was getting at was

1:34:58 Speaker 1: the fact that like so I don't understand why governments

1:35:05 Speaker 1: or whoever began, whoever is in indeed in like responsible

1:35:12 Speaker 1: whatever entity, whether that was the Vatican and the Church

1:35:16 Speaker 1: from the beginning, you know, which I do think there

1:35:20 Speaker 1: there's a strong possibility that the Church had something to

1:35:25 Speaker 1: do with with it.

1:35:28 Speaker 3: And you know, putting the not only the Catholic Church,

1:35:32 Speaker 3: you had the Church of England, you had uh, you know,

1:35:38 Speaker 3: and and a lot of people with with all all

1:35:41 Speaker 3: the political stuff going on now they say, oh, we're

1:35:45 Speaker 3: a Christian nation. You know, we're an evangelical Christian nation.

1:35:51 Speaker 3: But if you really look at the history, our founding

1:35:54 Speaker 3: fathers were what they called Deus agust Is, somebody who

1:36:01 Speaker 3: believes that God set everything in motion and then stepped

1:36:05 Speaker 3: back and said, it's all up to you, guys.

1:36:07 Speaker 2: Now let it be right, right, right, let it be.

1:36:11 Speaker 3: And that's our nation was founded by a group of

1:36:16 Speaker 3: diasts and it had nothing to do with evangelical Christianity.

1:36:22 Speaker 3: That came much later. So, and I always laugh about

1:36:27 Speaker 3: there's there's this long joke that was done by a

1:36:32 Speaker 3: comedian where he sees the guy ready to jump off

1:36:35 Speaker 3: the bridge and he starts trying to have a conversation,

1:36:39 Speaker 3: and he says, well, you know, I'm Christian, how about you?

1:36:42 Speaker 3: And the guy says, I'm Christian too, you know, oh

1:36:45 Speaker 3: what time Catholic Protestant? You know. And they keep going

1:36:48 Speaker 3: down the line until they find out that they're both

1:36:51 Speaker 3: Baptists and what convention of Baptists and what you know,

1:36:57 Speaker 3: just all the way down to the needing gritty and

1:37:01 Speaker 3: at the end he asks them, you know or you

1:37:04 Speaker 3: know what, what group are you with? And he tells

1:37:08 Speaker 3: him and he pushes them off the bridge and says,

1:37:11 Speaker 3: die heretic. Oh, And that's kind of what our country is,

1:37:18 Speaker 3: you know. We we look at it and we say, well,

1:37:21 Speaker 3: you got to believe like I believe, right, that's not true.

1:37:26 Speaker 1: That yeah, that's that's been it's becoming a very big

1:37:29 Speaker 1: problem in the country, is that we are no longer

1:37:34 Speaker 1: able to have discussion with contention now because if you believe,

1:37:41 Speaker 1: if you have a differing belief than I do, then

1:37:44 Speaker 1: you are no longer my equal, You're my opponent, right,

1:37:49 Speaker 1: And that I grew up at least I remember growing

1:37:53 Speaker 1: up in a world where discourse was part of life,

1:37:56 Speaker 1: where you know, you might have been a domestic democrat

1:38:00 Speaker 1: or Republican or navo or uh, you know anything. You

1:38:05 Speaker 1: could be You have any affiliation, but you could have

1:38:09 Speaker 1: a discussion and walk and you might not agree in

1:38:12 Speaker 1: that discussion. You might not even agree walking away, but

1:38:15 Speaker 1: you walk away after a handshake.

1:38:18 Speaker 2: That's no longer the case.

1:38:20 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, unfortunately, you know. But it's it's like a pendulum.

1:38:26 Speaker 3: The pendulum is swinging one way and it'll eventually start

1:38:30 Speaker 3: swinging back the other way. Equal one opposite is physics.

1:38:34 Speaker 1: Teaches, absolutely so. And getting back to some some of

1:38:40 Speaker 1: the some of the more weird stuff as we round out,

1:38:47 Speaker 1: is there was there a case that sticks out to

1:38:54 Speaker 1: you as one that maybe changed the course of your

1:38:58 Speaker 1: life or had an packed.

1:39:00 Speaker 2: On you more so than any other.

1:39:05 Speaker 1: Well maybe even an experience after the fact after you

1:39:11 Speaker 1: were out, like was there any is there any moment

1:39:15 Speaker 1: like that for you?

1:39:17 Speaker 3: Yeah? There, I get asked that a lot. And the

1:39:23 Speaker 3: story that I relate is how I was leaving early

1:39:26 Speaker 3: in the morning before Suna. I travel north and I'm

1:39:32 Speaker 3: going forty seven miles to Kaykotsmithy, which is called New

1:39:37 Speaker 3: Arribi on Hopie Reservation, and then I go west to

1:39:42 Speaker 3: Tuba city another sixty eight miles, and I have a

1:39:47 Speaker 3: routine where I go to the local drug through restaurant

1:39:51 Speaker 3: and I get a cup of coffee in my breakfast sandwich,

1:39:55 Speaker 3: and I had just enough time to go across the

1:39:57 Speaker 3: street and park and wait for gate to open up.

1:40:02 Speaker 3: On the way, the sun is just it's pre dawned,

1:40:07 Speaker 3: so the sun is showing on the horizon sunlight, but

1:40:12 Speaker 3: not the sun yet. And I looked in front of me,

1:40:15 Speaker 3: and I got straight road for miles and miles. I

1:40:18 Speaker 3: look in the rearview mirror, miles and miles behind me,

1:40:21 Speaker 3: a straight road. And I blinked, and when I opened

1:40:25 Speaker 3: my eyes, I was fifteen more miles down the road

1:40:31 Speaker 3: coming to a sharp left turn. Now you have to

1:40:34 Speaker 3: understand that that road goes up and down, it goes

1:40:37 Speaker 3: around curved, it goes along cliffs and back. Then there

1:40:42 Speaker 3: are no guardrails. And I don't know how I made

1:40:47 Speaker 3: that fifteen miles. And at first I thought, did I

1:40:51 Speaker 3: just zone out completely? And I'm just on autopilot. I

1:40:55 Speaker 3: got to the city and I went through the drive there,

1:41:00 Speaker 3: got my sandwich, got my coffee. I'm sitting at the gate.

1:41:04 Speaker 3: I was forty five minutes early, instead of waiting there

1:41:10 Speaker 3: just for a few minutes and having them opened the

1:41:12 Speaker 3: gate at eight. So I cannot and there's no time

1:41:19 Speaker 3: change at that time, I cannot say what happened. I

1:41:27 Speaker 3: had people say, oh, the UFO snatched you, and they

1:41:30 Speaker 3: put me back in the wrong time. I've had another person,

1:41:35 Speaker 3: very scientifically minded, that said I hit the event horizon

1:41:41 Speaker 3: of a microscopic black hole and it changed time for me.

1:41:47 Speaker 3: Still still skeptical. I went to the Snippy conference and

1:41:53 Speaker 3: a gentleman approached me after I told that story at

1:41:56 Speaker 3: the end, and he says, I know what happened to you,

1:42:02 Speaker 3: And he proceeded to tell me that I basically teleported,

1:42:08 Speaker 3: and so far that's the only explanation that I found.

1:42:13 Speaker 3: And in looking at this idea of teleportation, I found

1:42:17 Speaker 3: out that you can have variations in time. And now

1:42:21 Speaker 3: I tell people that it's just like doctor who, time

1:42:25 Speaker 3: is this you know, wibbly wobbly timey whinmy stuff that

1:42:31 Speaker 3: we don't understand.

1:42:32 Speaker 2: It's not it's not linear.

1:42:35 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not linear. And that really brought me to

1:42:40 Speaker 3: the cusp of understanding that there's much much more out

1:42:45 Speaker 3: here than we realize and if we just opened up

1:42:49 Speaker 3: our eyes and let our curiosity lead us, you might

1:42:54 Speaker 3: get some answers.

1:42:56 Speaker 2: There's no telling what are United Humanity couldn't do. I'd

1:43:03 Speaker 2: be hard pressed.

1:43:04 Speaker 3: You know.

1:43:05 Speaker 1: It reminds me of the story of the Tower of Babbel, Right,

1:43:11 Speaker 1: United Humanity, you know, it gets too close to the gods,

1:43:16 Speaker 1: and it needs to be you know, struck down a

1:43:19 Speaker 1: peg and separated and divided by language, divided by culture.

1:43:30 Speaker 1: But I think one of the biggest messages that I've

1:43:33 Speaker 1: tried to send throughout conversations with you know, experiencers, members

1:43:39 Speaker 1: of Congress, scientists, academics, is that if we all stepped

1:43:46 Speaker 1: back and put our let our biases be right, leave

1:43:50 Speaker 1: that check that at the door for a moment, and

1:43:54 Speaker 1: step away and look around. Because I think we all

1:43:59 Speaker 1: have a piece of the story, and we're just like

1:44:03 Speaker 1: you said, we need to open our aperture up a

1:44:05 Speaker 1: little bit so that we can get the full picture.

1:44:09 Speaker 3: Yeah. I truly believe that what I found in my

1:44:15 Speaker 3: journey is that I had to look inside myself bingo,

1:44:22 Speaker 3: and I had to decide, you know, how I was

1:44:27 Speaker 3: going to live from here on out, And you know,

1:44:32 Speaker 3: and you look at everything how you think just every

1:44:38 Speaker 3: aspect of your life and how you relate.

1:44:45 Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely.

1:44:49 Speaker 1: There was one question that I had, Oh man, now

1:44:52 Speaker 1: I just completely blanked on it because I went another

1:44:55 Speaker 1: way in my head.

1:44:58 Speaker 2: If oh, that's right?

1:45:00 Speaker 1: Have you you know, I think most people will know

1:45:04 Speaker 1: the story of the skin Walker, right and how it

1:45:08 Speaker 1: how it came to be the curse of the skin Walker,

1:45:11 Speaker 1: at least in that Utah area.

1:45:14 Speaker 2: Is that the the the thing that you know.

1:45:19 Speaker 1: Struck why Skinwalker ranches the way it is and in

1:45:24 Speaker 1: terms of its location because of the curse that was

1:45:26 Speaker 1: put on it, you know, through contention between tribes, you know,

1:45:33 Speaker 1: and and one puts a curse on the other.

1:45:37 Speaker 2: But so is that.

1:45:42 Speaker 1: It kind of seems like an oversimplification of it. But

1:45:45 Speaker 1: have you first off, what is a skinwalker? Like I said,

1:45:50 Speaker 1: We've talked about it already a little bit, but what

1:45:55 Speaker 1: is that the right definition of a skin walker? And

1:45:59 Speaker 1: have you ever come actually face to face with one

1:46:02 Speaker 1: of these things?

1:46:03 Speaker 2: Ever?

1:46:06 Speaker 3: I've come to face to face with them many times,

1:46:10 Speaker 3: and I've investigated them. I've found out in at least

1:46:14 Speaker 3: eight cases who they were, their identities, and in one

1:46:21 Speaker 3: case I put word out in the community that if

1:46:23 Speaker 3: you continue terrorizing people, I'm going to din you out

1:46:27 Speaker 3: to the community and let them know who you are.

1:46:30 Speaker 3: In the natural tradition, if you find out the identity

1:46:36 Speaker 3: of the skin walker and somebody goes up to them

1:46:40 Speaker 3: and say I know who and what you are, that

1:46:44 Speaker 3: person will be dead within three days. And I've seen

1:46:47 Speaker 3: that happen before. The person that knows the person you

1:46:53 Speaker 3: know the person who is the skin walker, because just yeah,

1:46:59 Speaker 3: unlike what you see on TV, they are not avatars.

1:47:03 Speaker 3: They are not these spirit things that run around. There

1:47:08 Speaker 3: are people just like you and me, flesh and blood,

1:47:12 Speaker 3: and they learn this stuff and they get together and

1:47:17 Speaker 3: teach each other all these secrets. My grandfather was a

1:47:22 Speaker 3: medicine man early on in his life, and my grand

1:47:28 Speaker 3: grant one of my grandmother's brothers, and he became a

1:47:33 Speaker 3: Christian in his young life, probably about twenty five twenty six.

1:47:37 Speaker 3: He was taught as a child to be a medicine man.

1:47:42 Speaker 3: And he told me that when you're taught to be

1:47:46 Speaker 3: a medicine man, you're taught the good things and the

1:47:50 Speaker 3: bad things. So he says, you're taught everything because you

1:47:56 Speaker 3: have to know how the curses are constructed in order

1:47:59 Speaker 3: to uh do something.

1:48:01 Speaker 1: With them counter it, and so you have to understand

1:48:05 Speaker 1: the curse to be able to you know, reverse engineer it.

1:48:12 Speaker 3: Right. So with that said, you know, he just told

1:48:17 Speaker 3: me be very careful, be strong in your faith because

1:48:20 Speaker 3: that's what's going to protect you. And so, like I said,

1:48:24 Speaker 3: I pray, I smudge myself, I take all the precautions.

1:48:30 Speaker 3: I've been just going to walk a ranch about four

1:48:33 Speaker 3: or five times now, and I've never had anything negative

1:48:37 Speaker 3: happen to me. The last time I went up there,

1:48:41 Speaker 3: I felt like I was literally in a clear bubble

1:48:45 Speaker 3: of some kind and that nothing was going to come

1:48:48 Speaker 3: and bother me. So interesting, But getting getting back to

1:48:55 Speaker 3: the question, my arsenal research has found that there's a

1:49:03 Speaker 3: romantic story that goes around that's repeated off. It says

1:49:08 Speaker 3: that when the Navajos were being rounded up by the

1:49:11 Speaker 3: cavalry in eighteen sixty four, they were force marched to

1:49:17 Speaker 3: Bosco Redondo, New Mexico, and a lot of them died.

1:49:23 Speaker 3: It was kind of like the Batan death March. And

1:49:28 Speaker 3: by the time they got there, there were march different directions.

1:49:31 Speaker 3: Some of them went through Santa Fe and were marched

1:49:34 Speaker 3: down the city streets put on display. Some of them

1:49:38 Speaker 3: were just marched through the desert, and at the end

1:49:41 Speaker 3: of that thing they were interred for four years. Supposedly,

1:49:46 Speaker 3: the government said that Navajos are raiding and causing a

1:49:51 Speaker 3: lot of depredation and stolen livestock and all this other stuff.

1:49:57 Speaker 3: The real story behind it, I believe, is that in

1:50:01 Speaker 3: eighteen sixty three gold was discovered in Prescott, Arizona. A

1:50:08 Speaker 3: military assayer was on its way back to Washington and

1:50:14 Speaker 3: reported that the Navo nation has land up there that

1:50:18 Speaker 3: could contain gold. Oh no, and so the government had

1:50:23 Speaker 3: to find a way, just like the Black Hills, to

1:50:25 Speaker 3: get rid of the natives, and so they sent a

1:50:29 Speaker 3: punitive military operation to do that. Now, the Utes actually

1:50:34 Speaker 3: come into this because they provided scouts for the military.

1:50:39 Speaker 3: Now in those days, in the eighteen sixties, that was

1:50:42 Speaker 3: an honorable job to be a scout for the military.

1:50:47 Speaker 3: So the youths rounded up the Navajos with the military

1:50:52 Speaker 3: and hunted them down. But you have to understand that

1:50:55 Speaker 3: the Utes and the Navajos were traditional enemies, and so

1:51:00 Speaker 3: the Navajos supposedly took this as an affront that the

1:51:04 Speaker 3: Uths were giving them payback, and after the Navajos got

1:51:11 Speaker 3: done at Mosco Redondo in eighteen sixty eight, signed the

1:51:15 Speaker 3: treaty and were allowed to come back. The story is

1:51:19 Speaker 3: that they put a curse on the Ute land and

1:51:24 Speaker 3: said you're going to have skinwalkers from now on. Now,

1:51:29 Speaker 3: with that story being out there, what I found out

1:51:34 Speaker 3: because remember I've had a career in archaeological law enforcement,

1:51:39 Speaker 3: so I had to learn about archaeology. And you had

1:51:42 Speaker 3: the Fremont people up in that area along with the Utes,

1:51:47 Speaker 3: and when I went up there, I found sites near

1:51:53 Speaker 3: the ranch that were set up as religious locations, and

1:51:59 Speaker 3: it occurred to me that all these sites circle that

1:52:03 Speaker 3: ranch area. However, what I found out is that the

1:52:10 Speaker 3: Fremont had been there and the Youthes had been there,

1:52:14 Speaker 3: you know, hundreds and hundreds of years, and they were

1:52:20 Speaker 3: already practicing protection for their tribe by having these ceremonies

1:52:30 Speaker 3: at these locations to hold back whatever evil that they

1:52:34 Speaker 3: were experiencing. So I'm going, okay, it doesn't match up

1:52:40 Speaker 3: with the dates the you know the and then later on,

1:52:46 Speaker 3: if you really look at Navu history, you find out

1:52:50 Speaker 3: that after they got back in eighteen sixty eight, for

1:52:54 Speaker 3: nine years, there was a round up a suspected of

1:53:00 Speaker 3: skin walkers all over the reservation that were put together

1:53:05 Speaker 3: kind of like Salem witch trials.

1:53:07 Speaker 2: I was just gonna, oh, my god, you read my

1:53:09 Speaker 2: mind a little bit.

1:53:10 Speaker 1: I was gonna say, sounds exactly like the witch trial.

1:53:14 Speaker 3: So, you know, did they have that big of a

1:53:18 Speaker 3: problem with Navajo witches? I don't think so. What I

1:53:24 Speaker 3: read between the lines and looking at the history is

1:53:29 Speaker 3: that there was a faction of Navajos that wanted to

1:53:34 Speaker 3: go to war with the United States after the treaty

1:53:37 Speaker 3: was signed, because they said that the treaty was not

1:53:43 Speaker 3: in the best interests of the Navajos and they should

1:53:46 Speaker 3: never have signed it. So there was a political faction

1:53:51 Speaker 3: that was active after they came back and Manulito, Gnado, Mucco,

1:53:58 Speaker 3: all these chiefs signed onto that treaty basically hunted them down,

1:54:04 Speaker 3: said you're a witch, and killed them. They said over

1:54:08 Speaker 3: nine years around forty, which is around up and killed.

1:54:13 Speaker 2: But there was an ulterior motive.

1:54:16 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm looking at the politics and thinking, how how

1:54:20 Speaker 3: else what better way to get rid of your political rivals,

1:54:24 Speaker 3: right than to stamp it out and execute them.

1:54:29 Speaker 2: So that's what.

1:54:32 Speaker 1: And that's what I mean, because that's the it's very

1:54:34 Speaker 1: similar what happened in Salem.

1:54:36 Speaker 2: It was.

1:54:38 Speaker 1: Oftentimes it was either land grabs or political opponents or.

1:54:44 Speaker 2: You know, a woman that.

1:54:48 Speaker 1: You know there were there was ulterior motives of the

1:54:52 Speaker 1: people accusing the accused, And like, does the does the

1:54:57 Speaker 1: land itself hold some sort of memory? Because we talk

1:55:00 Speaker 1: about time being not linear? Could that be what ghosts are?

1:55:05 Speaker 2: Is it? Is it replaying.

1:55:08 Speaker 1: You know, some some event that had a a really

1:55:13 Speaker 1: you know, tragic or terrible atrocity on it, And could

1:55:18 Speaker 1: the land hold some sort of like a memory of

1:55:21 Speaker 1: that and that that's where the poltergeist activity.

1:55:24 Speaker 2: Comes from and stuff like that.

1:55:26 Speaker 1: I think, you know, that could be one way to

1:55:28 Speaker 1: look at it, obviously, But someone asked a great question.

1:55:32 Speaker 2: Someone asked a great question.

1:55:34 Speaker 1: Now in like in the Catholic Church, with demons, there

1:55:40 Speaker 1: is such thing as.

1:55:44 Speaker 2: You know, how did essentially.

1:55:48 Speaker 1: Out the demon right to to do exercise exercise the

1:55:54 Speaker 1: demon from the individual. Now, a skin walker is a

1:55:59 Speaker 1: little bit different, right, because it's not something that's inhabiting

1:56:03 Speaker 1: it or is it? And can they be exercised quote unquote.

1:56:10 Speaker 3: With skin walkers, you have to have a traditional practitioner,

1:56:14 Speaker 3: new ceremony, and that ceremony will protect the people. I've

1:56:21 Speaker 3: had it done for myself, you know, protect individuals that

1:56:26 Speaker 3: will protect places and there are you know, rules and

1:56:32 Speaker 3: things to abide by doing this. This is just for Navo.

1:56:36 Speaker 3: Every tribe in the United States has some type of

1:56:40 Speaker 3: shape shifter. So when we talk about shape shifters, you

1:56:46 Speaker 3: have them all over the United States. You have them

1:56:48 Speaker 3: in New Zealand and Australia, in Africa and Europe, so

1:56:55 Speaker 3: it's in an Asian countries. So it's nothing new there

1:57:00 Speaker 3: out there.

1:57:03 Speaker 1: So they can a skin walker be redeemed?

1:57:09 Speaker 2: Can they? Can they repent?

1:57:12 Speaker 3: Redemption? Redemption is there for everybody. Uh, it's up to

1:57:18 Speaker 3: the skinwalker to decide. I actually interviewed a skin walker.

1:57:25 Speaker 3: Was a young kid that wanted to talk to me,

1:57:28 Speaker 3: and he told me a story that he was taught

1:57:30 Speaker 3: with two of his buddies how to do this stuff

1:57:33 Speaker 3: and they would shape change and go run out into

1:57:35 Speaker 3: the community. That's another holy person there. Yes, not a

1:57:40 Speaker 3: skin walker.

1:57:41 Speaker 1: Not a skin walker. There's no real pictures apparently no.

1:57:47 Speaker 3: But they were taught to do this so they would

1:57:49 Speaker 3: go out and have fun because that's all they knew

1:57:51 Speaker 3: how to do. And at one point, this kid's walking

1:57:56 Speaker 3: through a border town and he walks by a church

1:57:59 Speaker 3: and here's the church music going and everybody's singing. So

1:58:03 Speaker 3: he says, oh, I'm going to go in and check

1:58:05 Speaker 3: it out. And he slid into what every church member

1:58:09 Speaker 3: calls the backslider row, you know, right at the end

1:58:13 Speaker 3: of the church, right next to the exit. And he

1:58:18 Speaker 3: sat there and watched, and he's wearing a backpack and

1:58:20 Speaker 3: he says he keeps his skin in their kyote skin.

1:58:25 Speaker 3: And as he watches this thing, he suddenly decides, I

1:58:30 Speaker 3: want to become a Christian. And so he went up

1:58:34 Speaker 3: when they when they did the uh you know, they

1:58:38 Speaker 3: asked everybody to come up, and he accepted Jesus. So

1:58:45 Speaker 3: he goes back home and that night his buddy's come

1:58:48 Speaker 3: over and says, come on, let's go change. Let's let's

1:58:51 Speaker 3: let's go have some fun. And he says, they all

1:58:55 Speaker 3: started to chant and they all started to sing, and

1:58:59 Speaker 3: they were going through your system of affecting the shape change,

1:59:05 Speaker 3: and he says that his buddy's changed. He says, you

1:59:09 Speaker 3: leave the door open so you can run out right,

1:59:13 Speaker 3: And he even told me that when that happens, you know,

1:59:16 Speaker 3: when you change, everything gets blurry, there's a red shift

1:59:20 Speaker 3: in the color spectrum, and you're thinking becomes more animalistic.

1:59:27 Speaker 2: Animally, I was gonna say animalistic.

1:59:31 Speaker 3: Yeah, he says, you don't think like a human anymore.

1:59:34 Speaker 3: And uh, he says that his buddy's changed shape and

1:59:38 Speaker 3: ran out the door, and he says he tried and tried,

1:59:41 Speaker 3: and he couldn't change shape. Then he sits there and

1:59:45 Speaker 3: he says, I guess that's what it means when you

1:59:48 Speaker 3: become a Christian, that you can't do those old things anymore. Right, So, uh,

1:59:55 Speaker 3: you know, then I spoke to a guy that had

1:59:59 Speaker 3: a really, really seriously bad background and and uh, he

2:00:05 Speaker 3: ended up becoming a Christian. I don't know if he's

2:00:08 Speaker 3: still alive today, but he was saying that some of

2:00:12 Speaker 3: the stuff that he did were if there was no

2:00:16 Speaker 3: redemption for him at all.

2:00:19 Speaker 1: Right, I can probably imagine some of the things that

2:00:23 Speaker 1: he might have been involved in.

2:00:24 Speaker 2: But yeah, so there.

2:00:27 Speaker 3: Are Yeah, It's it's again, it's up to the individuals.

2:00:35 Speaker 2: Right.

2:00:35 Speaker 1: It's almost like you have to if you are if

2:00:38 Speaker 1: you aren't a narcissist, right, if you aren't a you know, psychopath.

2:00:43 Speaker 2: Uh.

2:00:44 Speaker 1: And and you do feel some sort of remorse and

2:00:49 Speaker 1: and you allow forgiveness for yourself, then salvation.

2:00:55 Speaker 2: Is can be for you. Right, But you have to

2:00:58 Speaker 2: be willing.

2:00:59 Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to be willing to to pretty much

2:01:02 Speaker 1: give yourself up in in many facets. You know, it's physical, spiritual,

2:01:09 Speaker 1: and mental.

2:01:11 Speaker 3: It's just it's just like an alcoholic. Your your family

2:01:14 Speaker 3: can't put you in a treatment center and expect you

2:01:17 Speaker 3: to not be an alcoholic when you get out.

2:01:21 Speaker 1: Right, Yes, right, absolutely I can. Yeah, I can, Uh,

2:01:29 Speaker 1: I can, I can relate to Yes, I can relate.

2:01:33 Speaker 2: To that, I should say.

2:01:35 Speaker 1: And and you know what's funny is and this is

2:01:40 Speaker 1: something we're kind of now a little bit over time.

2:01:43 Speaker 1: And I don't mean to keep you too long they

2:01:47 Speaker 1: call you know, Uh, I'm pretty open about it, you know. Uh,

2:01:52 Speaker 1: Because again I think my path was was kind of

2:01:57 Speaker 1: meant for me. It was meant to bring me to

2:02:00 Speaker 1: this seat right now.

2:02:02 Speaker 2: Talking to you. Right.

2:02:05 Speaker 1: Everything had to have happened the exact way it did

2:02:09 Speaker 1: for me to get here to talk to you. So

2:02:11 Speaker 1: I try not to be I try not to live

2:02:13 Speaker 1: too much in in in in fear of my past

2:02:22 Speaker 1: or like, you know, I'm not beholden to it anymore.

2:02:27 Speaker 2: For a long time.

2:02:28 Speaker 1: For a long time, I was, you know it, you

2:02:31 Speaker 1: don't exactly, And so where I was going with this is,

2:02:39 Speaker 1: you know, I am pretty open about it. Uh, but

2:02:42 Speaker 1: they call they called I learned this in the treatment facility, actually,

2:02:48 Speaker 1: and I've been so I haven't had a drink in

2:02:50 Speaker 1: almost I'm going on six years. And my mom, you know,

2:02:54 Speaker 1: she was always a really big supporter of mine. Hollywood

2:02:57 Speaker 1: obviously didn't help, you know, the lifestyle I was living

2:03:02 Speaker 1: just didn't. I was putting myself in these scenarios. But

2:03:06 Speaker 1: they call liquor, they call it, and I'd never really

2:03:11 Speaker 1: I'd never really thought about it until it was kind

2:03:14 Speaker 1: of like today when you put when you said the

2:03:16 Speaker 1: spelling thing. But when you go to a liquor store,

2:03:19 Speaker 1: there's a reason it's called wine and spirits, right, because

2:03:23 Speaker 1: in this liquor bottle is a spirit, and you become

2:03:27 Speaker 1: a different person. You are essentially possessed.

2:03:32 Speaker 2: When when you're drinking.

2:03:34 Speaker 1: Like my father, you know, when he drank and he

2:03:39 Speaker 1: took substances, he became a different and a violent person.

2:03:47 Speaker 1: When I drank, I became a very isolationist i'd be,

2:03:52 Speaker 1: you know, and I had swore to myself that I

2:03:54 Speaker 1: would never become my father, And there I was exactly

2:03:58 Speaker 1: like him, you know, trait wise, not not you know,

2:04:01 Speaker 1: I wasn't violent like him. But I have my own

2:04:04 Speaker 1: way of being. And there, like I said, there is

2:04:07 Speaker 1: a reason they called a spirit. And I think alcohol.

2:04:11 Speaker 1: I think alcohol is one of the the most, if

2:04:13 Speaker 1: not the most dangerous drug on the on the face

2:04:15 Speaker 1: of the planet.

2:04:16 Speaker 3: Sure, because it's legal.

2:04:19 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, and it's so readily available, right, and

2:04:23 Speaker 1: it's so socially acceptable, it's built in to our norms.

2:04:28 Speaker 1: Like you know, as a sober person, I'm always conscious

2:04:31 Speaker 1: of being invited to a wedding with an open bar, right, Like,

2:04:35 Speaker 1: those are things I start thinking about. I'm like, you know,

2:04:38 Speaker 1: it's the situations that were put in. And then you're

2:04:42 Speaker 1: watching the Super Bowl half the commercials for fucking bud light, right,

2:04:46 Speaker 1: or or some tequila or liquor imagine if they imagine

2:04:51 Speaker 1: if on your TV pop an ad for Heroin, right,

2:04:56 Speaker 1: some guy fix it up, fix it up? And uh,

2:04:59 Speaker 1: you know Byfizer Heroine? Uh what if that that?

2:05:04 Speaker 2: Like, what are we doing?

2:05:07 Speaker 1: And you know, I guess that's why I've always kind

2:05:10 Speaker 1: of related to certain Native people, and I I do.

2:05:15 Speaker 2: I have a couple friends.

2:05:17 Speaker 1: That are native, uh To their their families are Native,

2:05:20 Speaker 1: and I always really like I would I loved listening

2:05:24 Speaker 1: to their parents, particularly, I liked I liked the wisdom,

2:05:30 Speaker 1: the the way that they shaped the world and this,

2:05:35 Speaker 1: you know, how they talked about things. It just fascinated me.

2:05:41 Speaker 1: What is if there's one message that you can tell

2:05:46 Speaker 1: people through all of the work, all of the stuff

2:05:50 Speaker 1: that you've done, everything, If there's one message you could

2:05:54 Speaker 1: give to people, what would it be?

2:05:59 Speaker 3: Oh, that's a good one. I will tell you that

2:06:04 Speaker 3: we live in a much stranger world than anybody thinks,

2:06:12 Speaker 3: and it's there, it's all around us, and we can

2:06:17 Speaker 3: close our eyes and put the blinders on and go

2:06:20 Speaker 3: through our lives, or we can accept it that you know,

2:06:26 Speaker 3: we may not believe in them, but they believe in us.

2:06:29 Speaker 2: And that yep, exactly exactly.

2:06:34 Speaker 1: So you know, uh, of course I won't have so

2:06:39 Speaker 1: many I've there's I could talk to you for literally days,

2:06:44 Speaker 1: you know, I think you're such a unique individual and

2:06:48 Speaker 1: the things that you've been through, you know, how do

2:06:51 Speaker 1: you how do you, how do you balance it? How

2:06:54 Speaker 1: do you balance your cultural heritage and uh, spiritual beliefs

2:06:58 Speaker 1: and investigative mind and dealing with with with the unknown?

2:07:04 Speaker 3: You know, I don't try to force that on anybody.

2:07:08 Speaker 3: The whole reason that we got involved in speaking about

2:07:12 Speaker 3: this stuff is just to let everybody know this is

2:07:16 Speaker 3: what we've experienced. You know, you may not believe in

2:07:20 Speaker 3: everything that that I believe, but you know, like I

2:07:25 Speaker 3: said before, you know, you didn't see what I saw

2:07:29 Speaker 3: or you didn't see what I investigated. So that being said,

2:07:35 Speaker 3: there there's there's a lot of stuff out there. We

2:07:38 Speaker 3: just need to open our eyes to be able to

2:07:40 Speaker 3: see it.

2:07:42 Speaker 1: Right absolutely, Where can where can people? You know, I

2:07:48 Speaker 1: know you said you're right, So it sounds like you're

2:07:50 Speaker 1: writing a book.

2:07:51 Speaker 2: I know you're so. You you had a partner, stan Stanley, right,

2:07:56 Speaker 2: Stanley Milford here he is pictured.

2:07:59 Speaker 1: He wrote The Paranormal Ranger. You're writing a book, Paranormal Ranger,

2:08:07 Speaker 1: And uh, you know, where else can people find you?

2:08:10 Speaker 1: And when?

2:08:11 Speaker 3: When?

2:08:11 Speaker 2: When do you think that book will make its way

2:08:13 Speaker 2: on the shelves.

2:08:16 Speaker 3: I'm about a third through it. I've got twelve thousand

2:08:20 Speaker 3: words written so far. But there's but there's forty seven chapters,

2:08:25 Speaker 3: so it might be a true parter. Yeah, and it

2:08:29 Speaker 3: doesn't just talk about the paranormal. It talks about everything

2:08:33 Speaker 3: that I did. I mean, I was an em G,

2:08:35 Speaker 3: going to traffic accidents, you know, technical rescue of people

2:08:42 Speaker 3: that were stuck on ropes and things, just all kinds

2:08:48 Speaker 3: of stuff. And you know, I don't miss the work.

2:08:55 Speaker 3: I missed the people that I used to work with, right,

2:08:59 Speaker 3: And and then after that I actually had a whole

2:09:03 Speaker 3: different career and got involved in medical manufacturing and we

2:09:08 Speaker 3: were making peripheral artery stents and aeror extents, and then

2:09:13 Speaker 3: I got into maintenance and calibration and metrology and too

2:09:18 Speaker 3: and repair so highly you know, skill trade stuff.

2:09:24 Speaker 1: And I was gonna say, you have such a wide

2:09:28 Speaker 1: range of skill set.

2:09:31 Speaker 3: Yeah, and then finally decided, Okay, that's enough. I'm going

2:09:34 Speaker 3: to grab my Soli security and get out of here.

2:09:39 Speaker 1: I love that, and now write in this book. You

2:09:43 Speaker 1: also have a podcast that you do fantastic by the.

2:09:47 Speaker 3: Way, Yeah, that will be The Paranormal Rangers. You can

2:09:52 Speaker 3: find it on.

2:09:53 Speaker 2: YouTube, absolutely absolutely, but that's.

2:09:57 Speaker 3: That's your kg R A digit broadcasting, right.

2:10:02 Speaker 1: So it streams on that as well as on podcast

2:10:05 Speaker 1: platforms for anyone. And I'll include I'll include all the

2:10:09 Speaker 1: links for the that stuff in the description below in

2:10:12 Speaker 1: the post. So John, I I I, like I said,

2:10:17 Speaker 1: I could go on for hours and hours and hours,

2:10:19 Speaker 1: like I said to Part two, yeah, and a part

2:10:22 Speaker 1: three and four. I want to come out there. Now,

2:10:26 Speaker 1: what is do you live on the reservation right now?

2:10:30 Speaker 3: Yes? I do?

2:10:32 Speaker 1: Okay, Now you said it was like coming to this

2:10:35 Speaker 1: is like, uh, this is the post credit stinger if

2:10:38 Speaker 1: you will, uh, because the formal interview part is over.

2:10:42 Speaker 2: But what is the what do you have to get

2:10:46 Speaker 2: permission to come on to the land, Like what's that like?

2:10:51 Speaker 3: No, you don't need to have permission, you don't need

2:10:53 Speaker 3: a passport, but you are considered a guest and so

2:11:00 Speaker 3: you know, once you come out there, we hook up,

2:11:03 Speaker 3: we'll give you the Nickel tour, take you around a

2:11:06 Speaker 3: little bit of navol Nation is twenty seven thousand square miles,

2:11:14 Speaker 3: covering literally four states up in the Four Corners area.

2:11:21 Speaker 3: It's about the size of the state of West Virginia,

2:11:25 Speaker 3: so a lot of land to cover. Well, we'd only

2:11:30 Speaker 3: see a little portion of it.

2:11:32 Speaker 1: And and that's where these like these pictograph stuff, that's

2:11:36 Speaker 1: that's where that is so.

2:11:39 Speaker 2: And again we didn't even get into that.

2:11:42 Speaker 1: But you know, people don't carve things in the way

2:11:45 Speaker 1: that and those aren't even parts of those aren't even carvings.

2:11:48 Speaker 2: Those are something else.

2:11:51 Speaker 1: So you know, people don't I would assume that the Native,

2:11:58 Speaker 1: like the original Native, they wouldn't be you know, doing

2:12:04 Speaker 1: something like that if they did not want us to

2:12:07 Speaker 1: know or the like. That's how they wanted to communicate

2:12:11 Speaker 1: what they were seeing. And again, just on a brief

2:12:15 Speaker 1: couple pictures, I mean these you see these beings and

2:12:20 Speaker 1: you know, I just grabbed these really quick before we started,

2:12:22 Speaker 1: but I mean you can tell that like there's a

2:12:26 Speaker 1: goat there or a sheep there right, or a ram

2:12:29 Speaker 1: like it's very defined the animal and then the human

2:12:33 Speaker 1: and then there's something else there. And again, if you

2:12:38 Speaker 1: got you start asking your questions in your head, like

2:12:42 Speaker 1: they clearly know how to accually, accurately represent something. So

2:12:47 Speaker 1: why in that same reference would they draw this alien

2:12:50 Speaker 1: looking being right a wacky if it didn't actually exist

2:12:55 Speaker 1: the way that's how they saw it. So that that's fascinating.

2:13:01 Speaker 2: How many about how many? How many pictographs. Have you

2:13:03 Speaker 2: guys found or know about.

2:13:07 Speaker 3: I've personally been to probably a thousand of them.

2:13:10 Speaker 2: And that's all on Navajo nationland.

2:13:14 Speaker 3: Yeah, and many that were off off the reservation. I

2:13:17 Speaker 3: mean there. I think they estimated that there are three

2:13:23 Speaker 3: hundred thousand known archaeological sites on Naval reservation. There may

2:13:30 Speaker 3: be another two point five million that we don't know about.

2:13:35 Speaker 1: Oh my god, wow, wow.

2:13:40 Speaker 3: It's it's actually illegal to go to an archaeological site

2:13:44 Speaker 3: on the reservation. There's only three people that are allowed.

2:13:49 Speaker 3: Number one an archaeologists, number two a medicine man, and

2:13:56 Speaker 3: number three a navagal ranger.

2:14:03 Speaker 2: How fitting? How you? How fitting you? You? You almost.

2:14:11 Speaker 1: You know, you're that's really interesting. So there's clearly a

2:14:15 Speaker 1: reason for that, and a very I that makes a

2:14:20 Speaker 1: lot of sense, And there's there seems to be like

2:14:23 Speaker 1: a real hierarchy there just to the to the locations

2:14:27 Speaker 1: to the information. Now, one last thing before I let

2:14:31 Speaker 1: you go, because it just popped into my head. Now,

2:14:34 Speaker 1: obviously people die when there's a transferm transfer. Transfer of

2:14:42 Speaker 1: information is someone picked early on and then you know,

2:14:49 Speaker 1: kind of groomed to be able to take over the

2:14:53 Speaker 1: information payload, and you know that that's the cycle continuing

2:14:58 Speaker 1: or they don't. Just it's not like and you become president, right,

2:15:01 Speaker 1: like you just get it all right?

2:15:03 Speaker 2: There couldn't.

2:15:05 Speaker 3: Well, I think what we're talking about here is medicine men.

2:15:09 Speaker 3: And for medicine men there in the old days, they

2:15:13 Speaker 3: were kind of like a general practitioner. You were taught

2:15:16 Speaker 3: everything from a very early age into adulthood. Okay, nowadays

2:15:23 Speaker 3: you have a different situation and you have what I

2:15:27 Speaker 3: would call an I knows and throat specialists. You have

2:15:33 Speaker 3: medicine men. Now they are only practiced and just a

2:15:36 Speaker 3: few of the things. So it's very different. Yeah, because

2:15:40 Speaker 3: they haven't done this their whole lives. They can't learn

2:15:43 Speaker 3: everything and then so it's very different nowadays. Right, but

2:15:51 Speaker 3: it still exists.

2:15:53 Speaker 2: Right, But the the but the sacreds, like the sacred.

2:15:57 Speaker 1: Information, the the or history. I mean that's going to

2:16:02 Speaker 1: be someone's got to get that and then hold it.

2:16:05 Speaker 1: Someone's gonna Yeah, so is there someone is that like

2:16:09 Speaker 1: the chief of the Navajo is there, president of the Novo.

2:16:13 Speaker 3: It's handed down to everybody. It's just up to us

2:16:18 Speaker 3: if you want to listen. So, but the rule is

2:16:26 Speaker 3: that we had an oral tradition, which means that everything

2:16:30 Speaker 3: that is told you has to be repeated exactly. You

2:16:35 Speaker 3: cannot change it. Your fish can't get bigger and bigger

2:16:39 Speaker 3: every story. It has to be told exactly the same

2:16:42 Speaker 3: way every single time.

2:16:44 Speaker 1: So yeah, because that's what a lot of people pull to,

2:16:47 Speaker 1: is like, Okay, maybe these stories, like at the game

2:16:50 Speaker 1: of Telephone, they've changed, you know, through through various interpretations

2:16:55 Speaker 1: and wanting to you know, the human thing is to

2:16:58 Speaker 1: want to make a story more into sting, so you know,

2:17:01 Speaker 1: putting their own little details in there. So you're saying

2:17:04 Speaker 1: that that's there is that rule of like no alterations.

2:17:09 Speaker 3: Yeah, for a medicine man, I'm doing a single ceremony

2:17:13 Speaker 3: over three nights, calls an enemy waite ceremony. They would

2:17:18 Speaker 3: have to sing over two hundred and forty songs over

2:17:24 Speaker 3: three nights and you cannot make a mistake. Otherwise that

2:17:29 Speaker 3: whole ceremony is negated. And people are paying big, big

2:17:35 Speaker 3: money for these ceremonies. I mean, whole families pitch in.

2:17:39 Speaker 3: So if you better believe that they're watching waiting for

2:17:43 Speaker 3: the medicine man to make a mistakes so they can

2:17:46 Speaker 3: say I'm not paying you.

2:17:49 Speaker 2: If you missed it up, fudge, you fudged up. Wow.

2:17:53 Speaker 2: So there's there. So okay, all right that see this stuff.

2:17:58 Speaker 1: I could literally I could like question just after question

2:18:02 Speaker 1: after question after question. But John, you are so such

2:18:05 Speaker 1: a really really interesting guy, and there's so much more

2:18:09 Speaker 1: that we just didn't even get to touch on. And

2:18:12 Speaker 1: that's just in two hours, right, So uh, definitely have

2:18:16 Speaker 1: to do a part two. And I'd really love to

2:18:17 Speaker 1: talk about coming out there as soon as possible.

2:18:22 Speaker 2: And and.

2:18:24 Speaker 1: I really really respect what you do and uh from

2:18:27 Speaker 1: the total disclosure audience and uh, you know program, you

2:18:32 Speaker 1: have an open door uh here. So with that being said,

2:18:36 Speaker 1: everyone make sure to like, share, and subscribe as well

2:18:40 Speaker 1: as check out the Paranormal Rangers podcast on kg are

2:18:45 Speaker 1: a digital uh and on any podcast platform that you

2:18:50 Speaker 1: can find.

2:18:50 Speaker 2: All the links for that will be in the description.

2:18:52 Speaker 1: Blow, we thank you and we'll see you on the.

2:18:56 Speaker 2: Other And.

2:19:00 Speaker 3: The entertaining everything that the coating, that interpreting that Patna