Case 1.106

#106 Graeme Rendall- - WWII & Foo Fighters, SECRET Nazi Technology & The Rise of Modern UFOlogy

2024.03.10 1:34:26

Total Disclosure

0:00 1:34:26

Graeme Rendall - An Aviation enthusiast, WW2 enthusiast, German secret weapons enthusiast, UFO enthusiast, all from an early age. Has written five UFO related books (so far), all available via Amazon. Lives in one of the hilly parts of Northern England. Well be discussing his career, and work on the historical cases, all the way back to WW2/Foo Fighters, Nazi Tech & Modern History of UFOlogy #History #UFOtwitter #UFOHistory #FooFighters #GraemeRendall #TDP #TotalDisclosure #Podcast

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/total-disclosure-ufos-coverups-conspiracy--5975113/support.

Subscribe to the channel on YouTube: www.youtube.com/@totaldisclosure

Support TDP directly: https://www.paypal.me/TDPstudios767?locale.x=en_US

Support & JOIN THE COMMUNITY By Becoming a Paid member(CHOOSE WHAT YOU PAY) GAIN ACCESS TO EARLY CONTENT, BONUS MATERIAL, 1-1’S, A YEARLY GIFT, AND PRIORITY QUESTIONS FOR GUESTS AS WE BUILD OUT OUR COMMUNITY.

YOUTUBE MEMBER
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCy2Cra7aLAAMVxkA9rSYCxg/join

PATREON MEMBER: https://www.patreon.com/Total_Disclosure?fan_landing=true&view_as=public

FOLLOW TDP ON RUMBLE, A growing Platform that Rivals Youtube, and Allows for More Free Speech: Sign Up And tell them TDP sent you, by using our link: https://rumble.com/register/TotalDisclosure93/

CONTACT TDP DIRECTLY For Collaboration, Use of Segments/clips, or any other media produced by “TDP” —[email protected]

Special Thank you to all of our PODCAST/YouTube Channel Members for your continued support, and dedication to seeking the truth, together. We can’t do this WITHOUT YOU!

-COPYRIGHT-2020-

Copyright Disclaimer: Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, commenting, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. Non-profit, educational or personal use tips the balance in favor of fair use. Total Disclosure Podcast Copyright 2020 and … segments, early access to interviews, and a yearly gift autographed by yours truly!thank you in advance now, Let's explore the unknown together!

All right, everybody, welcome back to Total Disclosure, and today we are

presented to you specific by Biomind supplied by Ademschia Herbels. It's a new supplement

that I've been taking that includes a variety performance mushrooms and other things like lions

maine that really promote nor unhealth and growth. It's been an absolute game changer

for me and my lifestyle. And all the links for that will be in

the description below, as well as all of our other advertisers. And don't

forget if you want to get access to early interviews, ad free content and

all that good stuff bonus material. Like I said, we're working on a

film right now, so all the behind scenes footage for that is going to

members only. Click joint if you're watching on YouTube, and if you're listening

on any platform like Apple or Spotify, leaving a review really really hairly really

helps, especially on those platforms, and helps us get to a wire variety

of an audience to be able to do more fun and engaging stuff like going

out to remote places. So with that being said, let's not waste too

much time tonight. I am so appreciative that I get to hit with one

of my favorite people, and that's Graham Rendel. He is an aviation enthusiast,

World War two enthusiasts, German secret weapons enthusiasts, and just a UFO

enthusiast. I mean, what comes of aviation comes with the unidentified, so

all from an early age, and he's been interested in all of these things.

So I think it all culminated together and that he has become a leading

authority, especially when it comes historical cases in modern day ufology. He's written

five UFO related books so far. I mean, he seems like he's cranking

them out weekly at this point. Uh. And they're all available on Amazon.

All the links would be in the description below. All right, Graham,

nice to nice to have you on the show. Hi, Tyler,

thanks for invitation. Of course, I would not be doing my job as

a podcaster in ufology, uh, in this crazy world that we live in

if I did not get to speak to you at least once. And I

hope this is the beginning of a of a longer discussion, and I'm super

excited that you're here. I know that that phrase leading authority might be something

that you don't like to hear, or you're not you're might might bug yell

a little bit, but you've been You've been in this field for for almost

fifty years. Forty five fifty years. Uh, I think you've earned the

title. Yeah, I mean I've been interested for fifty years. I mean

I wouldn't say I've been sort of like really really active, because obviously,

when you were a kid, you know, you can only only read about

the subject. It's only when you get a bit older and you have a

bit more the tools and the wherewithal to be able to start looking into it

to the subject as a whole, you start to learn more, You start

to develop your friendships with other people, relationships with others, and just get

into the greatly of it all. And then just actually the last few years,

I've only had the time, the space, and the enthusiasm to actually

write about it. So yeah, it's been a bit of a process over

those fifty years. But yes, I've definitely been interested in the subject for

five decades. And you know there's yeah, I am that old. Yeah,

well, there's a lot of people that came in not me, I

mean came into the UFO community. I mean I wasn't active on like Twitter

with UFOs or anything like that, because the podcast originally was about movies and

I interviewed actors and it was all I mean, I had a UFO sighting

when I was ten to twelve years old, right in the front of my

house, in the front of my pirates house. And I mean, clear

as day, man, the classic. I mean, it just came right

over my head tree top level, right oscillating with three prominent circles on the

bottom, moving forward, right over my head. I mean I grew up,

I grew up next to like not even three minutes from me. Is

something I can't even explain, to have the time to explain to you.

Now, there's that, but there's also one of Raytheon used to have a

huge, huge place, a huge building in the Technology Park that's literally spinning

distance to here. And also I grew there's a Handso Air Force base not

even twenty minutes from here. So could what have I could what I have

saw been something prosaic? Absolutely, But I remember it being so out there.

And this is when the Internet didn't exist. And that's what I want

to talk about, is how did you do all this pre Internet? Like

how did you network with other people? I think conferences. Yeah, the

networking came later. I mean in the early days, it was simply reading

as much as I could, you know, pretty much, not all the

time, but every time I had a spare hour or you know, I

had a time in the library, I'll be pulling books out the library because

this is the day when you know, that's how you learn things. Either

you were given books yourself for Christmas or Verta presents the few bookshops that were

around, obviously new bookshops, because the second hand bookshops it was still hard

to find UFO titles back in those days, but the library was always the

best source. Even my local library and a suburb of a city in northern

England had a shell of of maybe twenty or thirty UFO books and this was

probably in what nineteen seventy three, in seventy four, so that's going back

quite a long way. And then the city library itself had maybe two or

three times that in its collection as well. And then second hand bookshops you

could get occasionally you'd see something come in that would be, you know,

something that the libraries didn't have. But even as a naive kind of like

sort of you know, ten year old and early teenager. I didn't really

have the kind of capacity to sort of sign up to newsletters because I didn't

know they existed, and the books very rarely gave deals all these kind of

things. If they did, they were American, they weren't British, and

there certainly weren't ones in the North of England, which is, you know,

far removed from Lovedon. We're three hundred miles from London, so you

don't have that kind of the same kind of culture and the access to information.

You know, it was quite a bit of a poor part of the

country, if you like, you know, starved of investment, staff,

of jobs, all this kind of stuff. So yeah, it was quite

difficult, but there was time going on, and then you got the third

dial up connections in terms of the net so that you were talking about so

early to mid nineties, there was bulletin boards and some of the early bulletin

boards on usenet, if people can remember that far back. You know,

a lot of them were to do with UFOs, so I joined them when

my first PC, but before that I was buying UFO magazines because there were

actually commercially available monthly magazines in the UK or one in particular called not surprisingly

UFO Magazine right on the Money, not to be confused with the American title

of the same name, which some people also might remember. And of course

there were things like Flying Source of Review which you could subscribe to, but

you know, some of them were relatively expensive for somebody who was only living

on pocket money, so especially getting it chipped, you know, a lot

of them being based in the United States. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

I mean I never came across things like APRO, you know, by reading

UFO books, and to me that was just like four letters, you know,

I didn't even know what it meant to start with. I didn't realize,

you know, what it stood for. I didn't realize the Lorenzums were

part of it. I didn't realize that it was a long running organization,

you know, with with you know, lots of members and people whose the

sense stuff into them. But I just saw it was like a footnote in

a lot of these books and just wondered what it was because it was always

this really good source of information. But then again, things like True Magazine

and Fate Magazine were also always you know, coming up in the footnotes.

If there were any footnotes in books, because a lot of them didn't have

that kind of thing, which I'm really strong on in my own work,

because I believe I should people should try and you know, see your homework,

they should see where you get your information from. But these all these

things always fascinated back me back then because I didn't know what these magazines were,

and I've never seen copies of them. It was only later that I

managed to, you know, either source them or see digital copies as well

recently, so you know, they were kind of there were a bit of

a mystery as well, not just interesting, but yeah, quite mysterious and

a little bit kind of it was like an El Dorado, you know kind

of things. Yeah, we're going to get copies of these, So yeah,

there was all that going on. So yeah, pre in days weren't

fun in terms of you know, getting information. I mean certainly it's not

like today. People are spoilt today. They don't even realize how spoiled they

are because and that's why, like, especially with some of these historical cases.

Now, don't get me wrong, modern day you know, I'm talking

modern day, like twenty twenty four, not twenty twenty four. Jesus two

thousand and four on like, no, it's on. Don't get me wrong.

The cases are you know, they're they're good, you know, you

know, photography is better, you know all that, But these historical cases,

people forget how limited the technological landscape was on the side of citizenship,

so the average person didn't have the of it, the the information available to

them to make these certain aspects up like we see to you know, with

with today, everybody knows what a gray is. Everybody knows, you know,

even if you're not familiar with UFOs and ufology. The culture is there,

isn't it. It's been. It's also been ingrained into people's social landscape.

So you be interested in youthology to know what a gray looks like,

or you're a black triangle, right, you know, everybody knows what Area

fifty one is. They might not know what it is in detail, but

they'll have heard of it and they'll have something, you know, some kind

of idea associated with it what it is, so yeah, and it just

won't mentioned the word roswell and people, you know, all automatically think aliens

crashed spocecraft, you know, secret, secret recovery is and all the resport

because the reaon has either seen a documentary or they've read something in a newspaper,

even if it's just a brief article, and yeah, it's part of

you know, part of the overall psyche. So yeah, you're right,

certain things do sort of like you know, are quite long live, even

though if people might not know a huge amount of them. Absolutely, and

like you know, pop cultures have obviously played a huge part in that,

and I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing, but it hasn't really

helped the topic as much as you'd think it might, because I mean,

everyone's got this fascination, uh with these right now, at least with these

two different disclosures, the catastrophic disclosure and the controlled disclosure. You know,

I was just watching uh Neil's uh Sall Foundation presentation, and I mean he

talks about the difference and the definitions of each and I mean, yeah,

it's it's all good and and good and well and and I don't know what

you took of some of those videos and if you watch them from the All

Foundation, but I would love to get your perspective on some of them,

but at a future date. So what all right? So Graham, what

got you into being an aviation enthusiast, because I assume it starts there and

with aviation comes unidentified aviation, and right the gap is right there, I

mean, so yeah, so that the start the start point for the aviation,

the start of the eupology probably only maybe five or six years apart.

They're not that far apart. When I was a kid, So even at

the age of four, I was I knew what aeroplanes were because we lived

fairly close to the flight path of the international airport for the city where I

lived, the flight path was only maybe two miles away, so you could

see airplanes coming in. Sometimes they flew over the house, depending on what

kind of your circuit they were flying, especially the smallest stuff. So it

was, you know, it was you saw airplanes pretty much every day.

And I certainly remember one day in the schoolyard which was just from the back

of the house where I lived in back then, and these four jet interceptors

were called Lightnings, and then they took off almost together in formation, and

then as soon as they they got so far off the end of the runway,

they basically just went vertical. Because that was one of the things they

used to do back then. They put the you know, go almost not

quite, but they put the engine that well after burn it and then just

shoot off in a vertical decline, so they got to operate an altitude and

then they'll just shoot off to wherever they were going for whatever exercise were flying.

But the noise, you know, were these and these nineteen sixty late

ninety fifties, early like the sixties era jets which I was watching probably nineteen

seventeen, nineteen seventy one, maybe the and then you know, the kids

in the school yard wall stopped playing and just looked up at the skies these

things and you saw them, and you saw these big triangular jet bombers called

the Vulcan, which was a big delta wing aircraft. You know, you

couldn't miss those, and the power and the noise of those things when they

came came thundering over as well. So a lot there was steady stream of

airplanes back then. It was the middle of the Cold War. We had

a lot more military aircraft in Britain than we do now, and there were

constantly, you know, flying exercises or training missions, so you always saw

them either when I was at home or when I was out and about,

and because I lived didn't live fair from the airport, it was also a

convenient place. So sometimes my father would take me out and we'll sit at

then the runway and watch the planes, so just for maybe an hour,

you know, just to just to kill an hour or so if we're if

we were coming back that way from somewhere else. So I was introduced to

airplanes at quite an early age. But another thing was I used to be

bought model aircraft kids to keep me quiet at home, because it was a

great thing for a kid, you know, give them a model kid,

some glue and a quiet place to work, and then you know, you've

got somebody quiet for hours. And I used to hang the finished items from

my bedroom ceiling, so I had like a little air force, you know,

above my bed. And of course the instruction for these models had a

little pottard history of the type of airplane that you were building, so I

started to build up a little bit of knowledge about the aeroplanes themselves. But

being a bit of a sponge back then, the library again got me all

more information about the aeroplanes, so I started learning much more, and even

at an early age, I was a bit of a reader. I'd learned

to read before I went to school, so you know, I was straight

into books which are probably aimed at adults, but I was still reading things

like that. You know, some of the stuff went over my head.

But you know, as I got older and older, I was starting to

pick up a hell of a lot more so. Yeah, so that's how

the aviation bit started. And then by sort of eight or nine years old,

I was reading science fiction novels, and these from some of the classical

authors from the fifties and sixties, and they also the paperback novels had nice

pictures of spacecraft at the front of the artwork was obviously designed to you know,

entice the reader. My mother who's long dead now, but she she

bought another book for me, thinking it was another one of these science fiction

novels, but it wasn't. It was a book on flying sources had a

picture of flying saucer on the front. But she was like a book of

case studies or it was yeah, it was. Yeah, it was a

book called Mysterious Visitors. It was by an author of The Trench, which

some of the Audiens might have heard of. And that got me hooked.

So you know, I was already interested in aeroplanes and some of the cases

involved in aeroplanes as well that were in the book. But it was just

one of these things where I'd never come across anything like this before. I

mean, I've seen science fiction films on you know, on television, but

it was nothing of things. Yeah, it was nothing like something that was

supposed to be fact because I was reading a book then, you know,

being quite naive back when you're nine year old, anything that you read it

in a book must be fact unless it's called a novel. So yeah,

it was that kind of kind of bridge the gap. It bridged the gap

between So so it's funny because I say this all the time, is we're

we're like most of us grow up and we taught, we're taught that the

world is very black and white. Right, it's not untill later on that

we we we find that there's much more great than we we ever could imagine.

And it seems like you kind of got got that at a younger age

and most of us. But also it was something that I wasn't being taught

at school. You know, you were talked like history geography signs, you

know, French all all the pyramids. Yeah, but nothing like this,

And I'm thinking, well, hold on, you know, who else knows

about this kind of stuff. And it wasn't something I could ask my father,

my mother and father about because they had no idea, you know,

it wasn't something they were aware of. My friends didn't really know at the

time, didn't really know that much about the subject either. And teachers,

it was that kind of school, that kind of time where you couldn't relate

to your teachers. You couldn't necessarily have a good conversation with them that you

might be able to do that nowadays. Was a different kind of era.

You were quite set apart from me, from your teachers. They were from

a different generation. A lot of them were quite stress authoritary. Yeah,

they were old school. Yeah, that the phrase. They were authoritarian.

So you couldn't just like, you know, rock up to them and have

a conversation about something as weird as this, yeah, I mean, Mike,

and get any meaningful conversation from them. My uncle he went to you

know, I'm not not to say this in a bad way, but he's

about your age, and he was he's left handed, naturally. But he

said that in school, they would they they said that left handedness was like

some demonic and they they would slap his hand with the ruler and you know,

force him to write with his right hand like stuff like that. My

dad was also the same as that. He was left handed when he was

a child, and he grew up in the nineteen sort of late late twenties,

early thirties, and he had the same thing back then, the same

attitude. You had to write with your you had to write with your left

handed. So he basically became ambidextrous because he was he was forced to write

at school with his right hand, but he was naturally left handed, so

you know, when he grew up, he could write with the hand.

It was just the way he was instilled into it. It's crazy how times

change, right, and it's all definitely and like that. You know.

That's why I'm so fascinated with you, because I really want to talk about

I mean, let's let's just let's paint it for what it is. I

mean, your leading authority on UFOs, especially historical cases, and the progression

of what I would call modern day ufology post nineteen hundred or what we call

modern. I do want to ask you one question before we go down that

path. Do you think there's a possibility that has been happening much longer.

Let's just say, let's get the elephant out of the room, or not

elephant out of the room, but let's call it what it is, the

ancient astronaut hypothesis. Do you subscribe to any part of that? I can't

discount it. I must admit that in terms of, like, you know,

how much there is to it. I haven't looked at all of it.

I've seen documentaries, I've read a few books on the subject. Obviously,

you know, Eric von Danikin was required reading back in the seventies when

his books came out, which which I owned back then from an early age.

So it's not as if I'm not aware of all that stuff. But

I don't know. It's one of those things where I still I'm still you

know, neither sort of like I just yeah, I just don't know.

And I think that's a hard thing for a lot of people to say.

I think some people, you know, will try and fit theories into you

know, the square pegs in the round holes and try to come up with,

you know, with an answer, whereas I'm happy just to say I

don't know when I don't know in terms of being you know, in terms

of a long time, yeah, I mean the stories going back to like

times of Alexander the Great, you know, flaming shields over battlefields and things

like that. So if you take those stories as being either halfway true,

then it seems like the phenomenon has been with humans for a long long time.

And then of course you've got various things from medieval times and from later

on. If you believe things like woodcuts and early paintings that have things that

could be construed as UFOs. Now it might just be the way that the

imagery of certain other things were depicted back in those days. I think the

jury is still out with a lot of that. And again it comes down

to who is looking at it and what kind of narrative you're trying to push,

and how you interpret these symbols as to what they are. And unfortunately,

now we're so far removed from these times that we can't really, you

know, sort of ask the people who who came up with these these icons,

these pictures, these images, these paintings, et cetera. So we

don't know, we're trying to put a modern kind of spin if you like,

on early on much earlier things. It gets a bit easier when you

get to it more like as you were saying, you know, sort of

after the nineteen after nineteen hundred, but even going back to the late eighteen

hundreds and the airship Saga if you like it in America, yeah, where

that was a case of one of maybe the first times where the technology that

was being seen or being reported on and being witnessed was probably just you know,

a little bit more advanced than what was people were capable of the time.

And it's that kind of technological gap, which to me is the interesting

bit and was interesting to me at an early age because the things I was

reading about back in the seventies of things that had been happening maybe thirty forty

to fifty sometimes years beforehand, you know, the gap between what was possible.

You know, humanity had a distingertips. I feel like in terms of

aeroplanes, rockets, et cetera, et cetera, and whatever was being described.

In terms of what people were seeing, there was a bit of a

golf there, and that kind of gulf was what got me interested in so

much as Okay, well what are these things? If we can't build them,

then where they're from? You know, who's who's you know flying these

things? You know what moti do they have and all this kind of stuff.

So that was that interested me really early on as to why this stuff's

different. I like that. I like that. So I want to talk

about I want to start here. I mean, the Cold War will get

to it, but I want to start with the Foo Fighters. Okay,

you wrote a book about them. I mean, I think it's fair.

It's fair to say that we should start there. And then I want to

get into Hitler, the Third Reich and their you know, secret Science Division,

a search for a way to win the war, you know, Operation

High Jump, that kind of stuff. So I want to begin there.

And I know that's a lot, but that's fine. It's fine. Can

you tell our viewers what if because aside from the band that everybody knows,

which actually they named their band that in inspiration of these things, can you

explain what a Foo Fighter is and when when we were seeing them and why

they're a part of history. Okay, Well, so I'll answer that question

just in a little bit but I'll probably expand it a bit just to talk

about its UFOs and World War two generally, because it's actually important to get

a bit of context, just to see where the food fighters fit in,

if you don't mind, absolutely So, yeah, as you say, I

wrote a book about the World War two UFO phenomenon and it was called UFOs

before Roswell, European Food Fighters nineteen forty nineteen forty five, which gives you

know, your audience a bit of an idea what the was about. So,

yeah, UFOs were seen throughout World War Two, not just at the

end of the war when the Foo fighters became a phenomenon. People have been

seeing all sorts of shapes and sizes in terms of craft, not just lights

in the sky. So these were things that you know, were torpedo shaped

objects. Some of them were different shapes, but a lot of the time

there were just lights and lights that followed aeroplanes. Now, the Royal Air

Force have been reporting these things since about nineteen forty and some of the intelligence

documents that I've sort of turned up from the National Archives in Britain that few

people or few of any people have actually looked at talk about lights that follow

aircraft for up to two undred and fifty miles in some cases that's quite a

long way and so long. Yeah, So Bobber commands, that's what the

Royal Air Force is, Bobber Command. They're what they call the Operational Research

Section, which would task with looking at types of German measures in terms of

trying to shoot down our bombers. They were looking at this kind of thing

for quite early on, from about the summer of nine and forty when this

started, and they looked at it for about two years trying to work out

what was going on, and to the end they just gave up. Obviously,

they thought there were some kind of German weapon or some kind of German

tactics on behalf of the night fighter force, but they couldn't get to the

bottom of it. So after a couple of years they just thought they were

wasting their time, so they moved on to other things. But the report

still kept coming in. And then, of course when the Americans joined the

war in Europe and their bombing raids over Germany started in January nineteen forty three,

then the Americans start the crew starts seeing strange things during the daytime as

well, bearing byd the r IF bomber cruise over Germany were mostly flying at

night. So yeah, things were seen by day and by night, but

not just over Germany. They were seen over Holland, they were seen over

France, they were seen over the Bay of Biscay, they were seen over

Italy, over the Balkans, over the Eastern Front, so that you know

straight away you can see it's not just a small part of Europe. Then

you fast forward to well, actually the beginning of nineteen forty four, and

things which later be called the Foo fighters are seen much more regularly. They're

reported over the Mediterranean, they're reported of the Balkans by RIF bob cruz,

attacking targets in Romania, Bulgaria, Czechoslovakia, those kind of places. And

they are literally balls of light which follow aeroplanes, sometimes even six surrounding an

aeroplane and in one particular account, and these accounts are buried away in the

squadron archives, so you look for you in the mission reports from bombing raids

and you see references to things like this. It's just a question of going

through them, you know, bit by bit, and not many people.

In fact, I'm the first person to have looked through a lot of these

squadron records, because some of the things I was pulling out had never been

published before by anybody, and never been found before by anybody. Some work

has been done, and some really good work has been done in terms of

some of the American squadrons, but in terms of the RF side of it,

not so much, possibly because the authors of work beforehand were American,

so they had access to the American side, and not so much for the

British. But nevertheless, you know, it's quite a good thing to build

further research on. So some of the stuff I was coming up with never

seen the light day before, but it just basically builds up the picture that

you know, these things were increasing, and then of course you get to

about October. Now the recognized start of the food fighter phenomena is November,

but actually in October nineteen forty four Cruise night fighter cruise from the US Army

Air Force based in Europe, so they were based in Belgium and based in

France. They were starting to report being followed by these red balls light and

then one of the radar operators from the four and fifth night Fighter Squadron a

guy called Donald Myers. He came up with a name of food fighters because

he was interested in comic books, and there was one particular comic strip in

particular, which was Smoky Stover, which was a comic fighter, which was

he was a comic firefighter, fire firefighter, sorry, and he drove around

in something called the Foo Mobile and his catchphrase was where there's foo this fire.

So it was a kind of corruption of all these things in this comic

book that Donald Meyers actually came up with the name Foo Fighters. And the

story goes that when he first reported one of the followings, if you like,

he went to the intelligence officer of this particular squadron, and when he

was asked about what these things were, got the comic book out of his

back pocket and slammed it down on the intelligence officer's desk and said, it's

another one of those Foo fighters you used to swear with beforehand. But so

there you go. So that's that's how the name came about, and it

spread throughout the squadron. It also spread to another squadron, the four twenty

second, which was based in another part of Europe, at the Western Europe

at the time. But then the name actually went across to Italy as well,

because in northern Italy there was a couple of night Fighters squadrons based there

as well, the fourth fourteenth and the four sixteenth, and they were all

sort of seeing the same kind of thing, and that name actually spread to

them in February forty five, but they've been saying the same kind of thing

the previous year as well, and actually in the previous summer in forty four.

So you can see that these things were being you know, witnessed,

who were being reported, even if the name Foo Fighters wasn't being used.

But that was the kind of catch all term that applied for everything from about

the last week in November in the official reporting, and you'll see that name

crop up in squad and reports of missions, you know, a food fighter,

fighter, fro fighter, et cetera. And it just keeps coming up.

And they got the point where there were so many of these cases that

that intelligence officer I mentioned before, he started compiling a list because he thought,

I've got to do something with this information. I've got to send it

up the chain of command. Absolutely, yeah. So he came up with

a list of fourteen different cases, and that was only a very small number

of you know, what was actually going on? And it is it?

Is it fear to say that everybody thought it was everybody else? Oh yeah,

yeah, Well what else would it be? If you were an intelligence

analyst back then and you know something strange that you'd never seen me before that

you couldn't work out what it was, then it had to be a German

secret weapon. And all the intelligence, all the kind of intelligence analysis,

all the scientists that got in, all the rest of it to try and

look at this stuff. That's basically what they came up with. It was

either the saying things or their German secret weapons. And that's how they still

thought at the end of the war, when the final kind of determination,

when they got the final word because the Americans didn't know what it was,

and they then passed the request of can you tell us what this is to

the British Air Ministry because they were considerably the last word, if you like,

and it took them about maybe a month month and a half to come

up with the answer, and the answer was the jet fighters or there's some

kind of flack rocket. Well, if you look at the reports that were

neither of those things. Is it Now I only bring this up because I

swear I think it was Nick Pope. He had said that there was a

communication between Winston Churchill and was it Eisenhower. Oh, I've heard this story

before, so it would it have been Eisenhower. So I'll tell you how

this story comes out. Okay. In one of the releases from the National

Archives back in the two thousands, there was a collection of letters that a

scientist he was he was working on I think might have been like a space

one of the space programs in Britain. One the small kind of you know,

we have like people who build satellites, like early early early space development.

No no, no, no, no no no, it's Leslie University.

I believe they have the kind of division where they you know, they

build satellites and they teach bil to build satellites but are launched by you guys

and you know, the European States Agency. It's a very small operation,

but it exists in Britain. Now, this guy, I think he was

attached to one of these one of these things. But this is not the

that's not the issue. What he said was that his mother had told him

a story about his grandfather and his grandfather was supposed to be a guard at

the War Office where church in the underground, you know, one of the

underground bunkers where Churchill met all these advisors, et cetera, during the war.

So this is under under ten Downing Street, if you like, in

the war, in the war rooms, underneath the underneath Parliament during the war.

So this is like a not not just like a first like a kind

of this is somebody who told me this story. It's also not just a

second hand story. It's a third hand story, okay. So the story

was that this guard was present at a meeting where Churchill was supposedly in fortun

Night in late nineteen forty four, was supposed to have been given details of

a moscuit of fighter bomber coming back from Europe over the North Sea and being

chased by a board night okay. And therefore, when the news got to

Churchill, he then said, this can't get out. We must keep it

secret because it'll panic the you know this, that and the other all this

kind of stuff. And that's how it's now that story has never been corroborated.

Again, It's like, so it's basically somebody telling somebody about something somebody

told them. So it's like how Chinese whispers. There was never any release

about who it was. There was no information you can chase up. It

was just he said, she said. And also, if it was a

guard, he wouldn't have been present in the room itself. He would have

been outside the room because you know, these these meetings were secret. You

know you had a guard posted on the outside of the doors, not inside.

You're not inside. Yeah, he doesn't have the clearance. A lot

there's a lot of stuff doesn't add up with this tale. You know what

pisses me off. I am super sorry that I interrupted the Great Graham Rendell,

but it pisses me off because people like Nick Pope and I'm not listen.

This is not a dig at Nick Pope. I actually like him,

but he tells some stories and because people see him as a former. Yeah,

it's true the insider, they take it as fact. I mean to

be honest, it's it's factual in so much as the letters are in the

archives. But unfortunately the papers when they got wind of this, when those

documents were released in whichever year it was, the papers basically go on on

the premise of that's true and also everybody else that seems to comment on this

story, because I keep getting questions about it every so often. You know,

well, do you not know the Churchill band or talk about the food

fighters. Well, that's not true because we don't know if he did or

not. It seems you know, it's one of those stories where it's got

legs because it keeps getting kind of you know, people like I'll see yourself.

You've just asked it as well, so you know it's out there.

It's it's like an urban myth, but it's got no provenence whatsoever. It

is literally somebody who said, my dad, you know, my father told

me this. I'm now passing this story to you, and we don't know

how true it is, right, It's just one of those things where it's

literally the words of somebody who told somebody else something and we may or may

not be true. What's and and you know what sucks to say is four

percent of this euphology, like the stories that's where people see is uncorroborated stories.

Well, he asked, so when you look at the letters again,

he is basically asking whether there are any official records of the meeting, and

if so, you know what was discussed, and of course the MD the

Ministry of Defense can't find anything because there probably wasn't a meeting all of these

lines, I mean, all those kind of meetings were minuted. Now whether

or not some of them are still secret is another question, but you know,

there's never been anything. And my response to this and actually something,

because I devoted a chapter to this particular topic in the book that I wrote

about the Food Finals. And my argument is, there were so many other

stories that happened before this case is alleged to have occurred. So I'm going

back to nineteen forty two where an object was actually shot at by a bomber,

and then there are other stories of two hundred foot long torpedo shirt objects

being seen by bomber cruise over Italy in nineteen forty two. Those things,

though, that last case was actually sent up the chain of command, A

report was sent up to, you know, the higher echelons of bob a

command. Now, if anything would have got to Churchill, it would have

been these cases from two years earlier. So why did it take until nineteen

forty four for just like an innocuous case like some lights following an airplane when

nothing was shot at and it was something huge. Why did it take that

for him to go, oh, no, we're gonna knock on talk about

this anymore. It just it just doesn't make sense to me. I actually,

the way you just painted that, it makes so much more sense that,

yeah, because if I'm kinetically engaging, that is big, right,

we don't you don't just shoot things to shoot at things in the sky without

having to explain why you did so, And that would have eventually some sort

of you know, I am shooting at something I can't identify in the sky,

I don't know if it's foreign, that would have made its way to

Churchill by that, by that, and it's not clear exactly when in nineteen

forty four this particular case is supposed to have happened. Because the actual kind

of details of this alleged case and I'm going to use that word in the

colors, you know, alleged case that turns out in this Churchill story.

You say, there's nothing that you can actually look into it about. You

don't know the squadron, you don't know the date, you don't know the

unit you know, you don't know that any of the crew details. You

know nothing beyond its supposed to have been a mosquito. But we don't even

know that's true. But let's say a fargument. It's the beginning in nineteen

forty four. We'd had several cases by then of things being shot at,

and in one particular case, the bullets going were nothing happening. We've had

there were cases of huge wins objects following bombers. I'll come back to that

if you want. I'm sorry, did you do that? They were absorbing

accord according to the person, According to the pilot, that's what happened.

And then also over North Africa, things being shot at by fighting on the

pilots as well, and then other engagements where they were being chased in circles

by these lights. Now all these stories add up. You know, there

are a story after story. Sometimes you know you're probably getting into dozens something

maybe hundreds of cases by the time this case in that you're forty four,

supposed to have happened. So somewhere along the line Churchill, if it had

been so important, he would have known about it by then. So that

is why I failed to kind of like sort of put any credence behind this

particular story. But as I said before, it's everywhere you know, the

news stories keep quoting, coming back to it and quoting it as being fact

when it's nothing of the sort. And unfortunately that's the kind of thing that

the Devil's uthology. But is it safe to say that there is a possibility,

whether it be nineteen forty four or before that, they might have reached

out to the United States and asked, we're dealing with these things. We

want to know if you are, oh, yeah, you know, is

it is it plausible? Then well we know that we know that happened already

because intelligence reports from the RAF and from the United States Army Air Force were

actually sent to each other. They were copied to each other. So if

you look on the historical records a sort of agency in America for the United

States Air Force, you can find microfilms would actually have copies of RAF intelligence

documents on them, so we know they were passed to the to the Air

Force, you know your side. And similarly US Air Force reports Eighth Air

Force, the bomber the squadrons, and also from the Ninth Air Force the

bomb squadrons that were based in England flying against Germany and the continent we know

that their intelligence documents were also passed to the RAF because everybody had to know

about what everybody else was seeing in terms of German defenses. And that's the

reason why these reports were passed on, because you know, you didn't want

to have you know, not all the information to your at your fingertips if

you were flying, you know, against the enemy. He needed to know

what everybody else knew about their defenses. And of course these things were considered

to be possibly part of the German defenses. Wow, Wow, Wow,

I'm blowing. I'm just kind of taken back a little bit a few times

on the show. I don't I think I've been a little speechless because you

know what would the so all right, we have the Foo fighters and a

lot of people described them as just balls of light. Now, were there

any other encounters with different shaped objects or we because a lot of people think

that UFOs are disc shaped often, but I would say that that's not the

truth. There's there's so many accounts of a cigar shaped, you know,

propane tank shaped, you know, just just as much. So were do

you think these food fighters were were circular balls of light or you know,

were they something different? Or were there multiple. So one of the questions

when the information about the food fights, I mentioned that list before that this

intelligence officer compiled, when that was sent up the chain of command, one

of the questions that came back to him effectively was what part of the aircraft

are these lights attached to? And that's one of the things we asked,

because they assumed that the you know, these lights were just like navigation lights

or headlights or something like that. But it turned out that, you know,

they weren't attached to anything. They were literally just lights. There was

nothing behind them. There was no airframe, there was no apparatus, there

was nothing that there was there were actually fixed to the just lights and the

way these things were maneuvering and being able to follow aeroplanes even when airplane aeroplanes

were throwing you know, like you know, diving and turning and all the

rest of it invasive maneuvers. These things were just managing to sit on their

tails. And story after story, not just the Americans, but also the

bridge beforehand, there were just lights. The ARIF had a different name for

pilots, had a different name for these foo fighters. They called them the

thing or the light, and that name had been coined as early as nineteen

forty three, and even maybe even beforehand, So you know, you'll see

in lot in pilot log books occasionally, you know, reference to those things,

the names, but also not just lights. I mentioned there was a

huge wingless object came up behind an anti submarine aeroplane on the Bay of Biscay,

and that was an American aeroplane, by the way. That was November

nineteen forty two. There was a two hundred or three hundred foot long torpedo

shaped object seen by a bomb a crew of a northern Italy, so that

you know, you could call that a tic tac. That's your cigar shaped

object. And other things like that were seen and reported. Some things were

class as rockets, but they were flying zigzags, and a rocket can't do

that. Rockets follow ballistic trajectories, they don't zigzag, whereas a lot of

these things that were seen over the skies of Europe, following bombers would follow

in what they call a series of jerks, so they would zigzag, or

they would put spurts of speed on and then slow down again and then speed

up again. So you can't reconcile that with anything that was being built at

that time. There was over a battlefield in Russia at the beginning of nineteen

forty three there was something that was described as an upturned bathtub sitting above the

battlefield, watching an aerial battle below it, and then the ground battle below

that as well. So you've got different shapes and sizes. You know,

there's no kind of one common denominator throughout the war. The stuff that you

were reported after the war, all the different shaped sizes, colors, all

the rest of it is the kind of a bit of a kind of a

microcosm during the war. It's almost like an early you know early you know,

sort of iteration of everything that happened. Afterwards. You even get things

like flying rectangles which were seen by a spitfire pilot at about twenty thousand feet

above northern England, not too far from where I live now. That was

reported, that's in the records of the of the of the Unity flew with.

I've actually seen that, you know the record how it says he saw

four black rectangles at twenty two thousand feet, So yeah, you saw that.

You stay these stories rectangles, rectangles, and you know that this it

just rings that bell in my head about more modern cases that say, like

you know, there was like a Walmart that flew over them, like it

was the size of a Walmart. Yeah, football field time, sootball field.

Yeah, Like that's like those that that's what that reminds me of.

And you know, I do want to say so Hitler in the Third Reich,

it they did have this you know, science division, and it was

definitely looking for a search or searching for a way to win the war,

and or at least that's well, that's the kind of that's the kind of

common perception right there. There were a lot of different companies and different competing

projects into the right and really if you didn't have official patronage, so if

you didn't have like a top general or some like top party boss who was

on your side, then you actually didn't really get anywhere. There weren't a

lot of very small private enterprises who could get the kind of funding and the

research facilities to be able to build your really specialist stuff. So it was

basically the big aircraft manufacturers and some of the companies that built the tanks,

rockets and all this kind of stuff that could succeed and have the wherewithal to

be able to put these things into into into reality if you like. But

even before the war, so just before the war started, I'm talking sort

of June and August nineteen thirty nine. In June thirty nine that the Germans

flew the first rocket powered aeroplane. It was the world's first, that the

Henkel won seven to six. And then in August nineteen thirty nine, just

four days before the Second World War started, they flew the first jet aeroplane

minutes, but it was still the world's first jet flight because previous to that,

we're using propellers. Well still, yeah, that's right. Also,

and not much further earlier than that, a lot of the world's air forces

in the mid nineteen thirties were still flying biplanes. The RF were still flying

biplane fighters about as late as nineteen thirty five, nineteen thirty six. It

just goes to show you that these lights that were following them doing zigzags and

do it you know, rock like we even our best of the best were

flying planes that were yeah, yeah, black luster to say the police.

So there was already detected. By the time the war started, the Germans

already had the kind of capability, if not the actual desire, to immediately

build jet and rocket power fighters. The German generals couldn't get their head around

the kind of possibilities. They weren't that far seeing. They still didn't even

develop a strategic bomber force, unlike what the Americans and the British had,

you know, with the big four engine bombers. They did have aircraft like

that, but they didn't understand the potential. They were still a kind of

a tactical air force, so their bombers were basically charged with the support of

the army, if you like, rather than you know, kind of strategic

bombing industry and this kind of stuff. But by and also because of the

early victories that the German army managed to get in Europe, by sort of

about June nineteen forty, there was actually a moratorium on weapons development because the

Germans pretty much thought they'd won the war. They actually disbanded some army units

because they thought, well, we're not going to need all these soldiers,

you know, really, oh yeah, definitely, yeah. They disbanded several

army divisions because they just didn't need demand power because France, you know,

France was beaten. A lot of other countries in Europe were beaten. It

was only the British across the Channel who were still fighting on. You know.

By the end of nineteen forty the Germans had moved and they'd taken over

the Balkans, they'd taken over Greece, they were, you know, it

was about to start in things in North Africa. In nineteen forty one,

it was all kicking off and they were effectively winning the war before they declared

warn the Russians when it all started to go a little bit wrong, but

still in the in the first six months of the war of the war against

Russia, you know, they pushed all the way to Moscow. So things

were going well for the Germans and they didn't have the kind of, oh,

we need to get all these war winning weapons. That came pretty much

towards nineteen forty two when things started to go a bit you badly for them.

They started to get Theirs reversals, so l al Amine in North Africa.

The British pushed back against the Germans, yes Stalingrad in Russia, which

was the end of nineteen forty two, the first month of nineteen forty three,

so about this time they started to like really try and push towards Well,

look, you know, what have we got on the shelf. What

do we need to develop? Okay, we'll dust off the jet, you

know, the jet aircraft, and some early jet prototypes were built. There

was the Henkel ket they'd already built the first jet. They came up with

the Henckel two eighty, which wasn't success, but it paved the way for

the two six two, which did go into service by then war. It

was a really good airframe, if not very good engines, so it could

stay up. Oh yeah, it could stay up for quite a long time.

It was very quick as well, and they had enough pilots trained to

fly the aircraft by then the war, and it was quite potent when used

correctly, so they had they had decent jet aircraft. They also developed rocket

powered airplanes that the mentionment was sick three Comet was was a rocket powered interceptor.

It wasn't very safe to fly, it wasn't very effective, but it

was there. So they had the technology to do this at the same time.

Sorry, go on, are the Germans credited with the modern day commercial

airline. Uh, not necessarily, although they did have plans to build jet

airlines after the war, they would I mean if it wasn't for their development

and then bringing those people over, you know through pop operation paper clip clip

do you think, well, I mean, could it? Could it?

That's a question for another day. Well, actually, at the same time,

Britain were developing jet engines America, So it wasn't as if the Germans

had a monopoly on this technology. They just seemed to be faster because it

was more kind of like crucial for them to actually develop it before we did

it, before you did. And they did actually come up with the first

operational jet fighter, an operational rocket power fighter long before though they were a

thing on the British and the marriage. Yeah, let's not be you know,

let's not be coy about it. I mean, they did have some

of the best working for them. Well, certainly they certainly had some really

quite interesting ideas about what to do, and it's safe to say that they

had a lot more stuff on paper. In terms of missiles, they had

about fifty different missile designs. So whether you're talking about air to air,

a surface or service to air or service to surface. They had all these

different missiles. Some managed to get into production also the famous ones that you

know most people know about the V one, the V two rocket. However,

they also had an artillery kind of rocket. It was called the Rhine

butt or the Rhine. But they had various air to air missiles, one

of which was almost in combat but for the bombing of the of the factory

that built the actual engines for this missile, it would have gone into service

in early nineteen forty five. And then there were anti tank missiles that were

built as well. You know, you had all and glide bombs. That

was a thing that they came out with, first of all being unpowered and

then being rocket powered. So I'm talking about Fritz X, which was a

glide bomb which was radio controlled, and then the Henckle of Henschel one to

two ninety three, which was an anti shipping glide rocket powered, anti anti

shipping missile, and that was wire guided first of all, and then they

built a television camera into the nose so it could be TV guided. So

that's really kind of for then cutting edge technology in nineteen forty four. So

all this stuff was you know, on on the table. Some of it

was actually being put into production, and it was only the fact that the

war ended when it did, when some of the stuff that was some of

the even more incredulous stuff that was on the on the drawing boards and actually

just on the point of being sort of operational, the war ended before it

could be put in the surve And I'm talking there about vertical take off rocket

powered interceptors that could fly at thirty six thousand feet a minute in terms of

a climb, and they would shoot off anywhere rockets and bombers and then break

up into bits to be parachuted back to the ground to be reused in the

next mission. So this is the kind of technology that we're coming up with.

It was incredible some of the stuff that they had, you know,

on their books. It's after you, and this is the stuff I was

I was really interested in as a kid, and I'm still interested in now,

right. So I want you to bring me to why did Germany go

to the Arctic? A we're talking about the Arctic of the Antarctic, because

Arctic antartic well, you see, this is one of the things where we'll

start again to come into the same realms as the Churchill story. That basically

things that people have said which then become fact, even though they're not necessarily

fact. So in terms of the facts, the Germans did go Antarctica,

but they went before the wall, so there was an expedition over the winter

of nineteen thirty eight to nineteen thirty nine, so it was only for like

a couple of months when they sent ship down to the Antarctic, and the

only thing they did was fly aircraft over the coast because where they turned up

Anartica, you couldn't get a boat shore because of big ice cliffs, so

they were they all they could do was fly some floatplanes from the ship that

went down, because it carried two floatplanes, and they flew over the coastline

maybe you know, thirty or forty miles maybe in land, and they dropped

some little flags with swastikas on them to say that they've been there. You

know, this is what you do when you go and find a new place

and you put your flag up. But because they couldn't get people ashore,

that was an XPEX thing. So they dropped these little flags with swastikas on

them, and they called it New Schwabenland. Now from that and that's all

they did. A huge myth has basically evolved of Germans going down there and

setting up a colony and possibly during the war, and then you know certain

people going there at the end of the war to hide to escape the Allies

and a lot of technology going down there, to the point of where they

had this huge infrastructure down there with all this that and the other which was

able to wipe out or force a retreat from the people in High Jump,

which is the US military expedition to try and get some understanding of kind of

Arctic fighting, even though it was in the Antarctic, but I was there

that was the best place to do it, so try and work out how

they could fight a war in the Arctic or the Antarctic in nineteen forty in

nineteen forty seven, so the whole story built up around that, you see.

So you don't think that there's any connection between High Jump and the Germans

going there. I think when you look into it a bit more, the

Germans allegedly, well, there's a lot of there's a lot of heavy lifting

going on with people's stories. There's all this kind of either it's a well

known fact that and you'll see you say that ray written or things which are

basically stories presented as fact because if you taste say something long enough and hard

enough, people starting to believe it. But unfortunately, when you look like

a lot of things to do with the German secret weapons and a lot of

myths which are on the internet, the more you actually dig into the stories

and find out where the origin of the stories is, the less you find

out, and you get to a point where you can't get any further back,

and you tend to be able to get back to any actually you know,

the actual know of the story because it just doesn't exist, can I

I I? And this is my this is a subtangent, but this is

my problem with religion. Organized religion is we have the same same problem.

It's a curation of you know, the Bible. Look, it's the best

example. It's curated. It was put together stories to form a narrative,

and you know, to they left certain parts out that didn't aligne and you

know, like it's all just stories. It's all stories. And of course,

like things in the Bible that we can say, you know, it's

only when we step back and we're able to look at it as a whole

picture, right that we see that there are things in like the Bible and

other texts that we can agree happened. There's evidence that that that for it,

at least the places that they happened, and uh, the event that

happened in some cases like the flood, and then obviously like places are are

being discovered. Uh, like I believe, Troy, Uh what was what

was the found? And it was always believed to be a mythical place and

it was ended? Was it, Troy? I have to you'd have to

ask someone else about Yeah, I guess. I guess that's the problem.

That's the problem with not having a producer. I don't have anyone to be

like, okay, fat, you know I'm not I don't have a But

anyway, the things, the things about you know, this particular story about

the Antarctic and the Germans supposed to be being there. You know there are

some facts are there. But also the way that you build a story about

things, you always include some things which are true and then you can weave

your story around them, because then it muddies the issue a bit. So

we know the Germans were there because that's well documented. It's the bits that

people then try to make up, which you know, they fall down because

you don't have the same kind of level of documentation or witness accounts you have.

It's basically he said, she said kind of stuff. So therefore,

you know, yes, okay, if you're trying to sell a narratives,

and the Germans were an anti art Antarctica and they and they did this,

They did that, they had a flying saucers down there. That of course

you're gonna, you know, try and weave a story that makes Germans being

down there during the warm sending submarines down there, But actually there's nothing to

say that they ever did. German submarines did go missing maybe is the wrong

word. They were out of contact for something for a long period of time

at the end of the war, but they all turned up, you know,

they surrendered to the Allies in different places. It wasn't as if they

disappeared off the face of the earth. And yes, a lot of submarines

did you know, sort of you were lost, but because they were lost

through enemy action and that they were sunk, you know that there's very few

that they've never found. And it's a long way to Antaraga, and really

at the end of the day, is okay you might you know, let's

say for argument's sake, this is true and people were sent down there,

how do they survive, you know, grow food down there? It's the

very hospital in hospitable environment. How do you heat you know the place?

How do you how do you stay warm? How do you feed yourself?

How do you clothe yourself? How do you supply how can you get enough

supplies down this fuel for electricity, all this kind of thing. It would

think about that, you know. So it would have had to been a

huge undertaking in the sense that multiple voyages happen multiple, I mean, were

countless, because we need to we need to set up infrastructure, like you

said, you know, and there's no evidence to suggest that that there isn't.

And something on that scale would have registered somewhere. The documentation or the

witness films would have been there in much more numbers than the few stories which

are alleged to be the kind of bedrock of these these tales. There are

some people who have said, look, you know, certain crews who said

they were submarine crew who said that this kind of thing happened but yet they

were very few and far between though, so but again that's third you know

second hand. A lot of time they weren't directly involved. So I look

at this what evidence and they use that again that would advisedly what evidance there

is to actually support this idea, and I just keep coming up again and

again just saying there's not enough. It's like the German flying saucer myth,

which it goes through at length in the book about UFOs before I was gonna

bring it up. And so there's this huge, huge misconception about the glock

or the bell something else entirely. Yeah, people, oh this is different.

Oh yeah, that's that's something else entirely. So you've got two different

myths going on here, the bell or the glocker, and you also have

the German flying saucer myth as well. They're two separate things. Oh well,

if you wouldn't mind, okay, so you can hit But no,

so if you look for food fighters on the internet, sooner or later,

you will also come up with German flying discs. Because there is a huge

amount of stuff that's been and it's not It actually predates the Internet age.

It goes back to about thirdly nineteen fifties. Funny enough, where Germans started

contacting various newspapers and magazines in that country in nineteen fifteen, nineteen fifty one,

nineteen fifty two to say I worked on this type of project. We

were building flying discs. They flew such and such a place, such and

such a time, or they were building them, or they were planning to

build them. It depends on who you taught who who's actually writing these things

or talking to journalists and these All the stories come out in various newspapers,

but when you try and dig in further, you can't go any further back.

It's because that's when the story stopped. And in one case, somebody

said that he was a Henkel test pilot, but you can't find any record

of him. Actually what he did was he drove a truck for the US

Army after the war and he delivered newspapers. That was his you know,

that was his job. So he was supposed to be some high you know,

some real real clever designer who built flying discs in the war. Now,

if that being the case, he wouldn't be snapped up by the likes

of the people who were snapping up the German rocket engineers and the rocket scientists,

so you weren't going to let someone like that slip the net. And

yet he, you know, he was delivering newspapers for the US Army,

so that something doesn't figure there. There was another guy saying that he was

part of a German technical branch who oversaw some of these projects, and he'd

seen the test flight of one of these discs in February nineteen forty five,

I believe it was. But again it's one of these people who you can't

trace in the war. There's no records of him, you know, being

part of anything in the wall, let alone a secret or some kind of

a secret weapons branch. The only connection that anybody's been able to prove with

rockets is that he was one of the partners of a company which built toy

rockets powered by fireworks in about nineteen fifty two or nineteen fifty three. So

you know, again you can see where you know, some of this is

leading. A lot of people were saying a lot of things, but proving

it and you're getting any evidence for this was a completely different thing. But

these stories stayed as because they were in the newspapers and people latched onto them

afterwards, and again they're presented as fact, even though it's just somebody talking

to a journalist saying I did this with no evidence. So yeah, it's

very very tenuine. And they say you can't trace the stories any further back

than that, there's no wartime records. But people then presented as fact,

and it's popped up in book after booker and it's on internet pages all over

the place, and you know, there's a lot of people who believe it,

but when you try and get actual proof from them, they come up

really short and get really angry about it as well. So so glock Glocker,

Ye glocker in the bell So that's right. So that story comes from

a Polish a guy who was actually originally started writing things about secret weapons.

And from what I've heard from some other people, those books aren't entirely accurate

either. I do actually have a copier on them, and I'm trying to

get it translated from Polish into English because obviously it's a been a long process.

I'm doing myself, just trying so I can read it, you know,

I can see for myself how accurate and how maybe inaccurate, it is,

but he came up with an idea, he'd allegedly and they're going to

use this word again. He'd been given some information from somebody who had some

documents from Polish intelligence just after the war, and there was an allegedly an

interview by Polish intelligence officers with one SS higher police leader, a guy called

Jakob Sporreenberg, who had allegedly again been part of a secret weapons progion which

knew about de Gloca, which was supposed to be nanty gravity experiment in an

underground facility in Silesia, which is southern Poland nowadays. And if anybody's seen

the documentary Hunter zero point, then they will see this thing that looks like

a henge, looks like a kind of these kind of stilts in a circle,

and that was, according to this Polish author, was supposed to be

the basis of a test rig for an anti gravity device called the Bell,

because it was supposed to shape like a bell. His soul, as far

as I can tell, his sole evidence for this comes from these transcripts from

this interview in about nineteen forty six, nineteen forty seven, maybe from Polish

intelligence, and this former SS officer. Now this SS officer, you can

trace his history. You know where he was a certain times during the war,

and he wasn't in Poland. Towards the end of the war. He

was in Norway because he's been banished there for some transgression or other in forty

four. So at the end of the war, he wasn't actually anywhere near

this project. And it's debatable as to how much you know, kind of

knowledge he is somebody in his position, bear in mind he was effectively like

a kind of put like a top policeman, if you like, was more

conc concentrating on, you know, sorting out the Jewish question as it was

then, or getting rid of partisans, et cetera, rather than being interested

in a secret weapons project. Because actually in the SS at the end of

nineteen forty four weren't even into the secret weapons project. They only took over

the German secret weapons programs at the end of January nineteen forty five, and

that's Kamela His doing, So you know, in nineteen forty four they weren't

really into it in terms of officially. But again it's one of these things

where you can weave a story around all sorts of things and make it sound

really good, and if you have a little bit of knowledge about to say,

well, I've got this information it was from a secret source, as

anonymous source, and about this, that and the other, which you can't

disprove, you know, you can't prove a negative, and you can purport

this fact and then say and then build a whole narrative around it you made

basically. You know, I'm sure if I had mind to it, I

could probably come up with something really really kind of you know, sort of

believable. But well, why would I do it? You know? You

you know, it just destroys your credibility as far as I'm concerned, So

I don't believe it. I'm afraid. You know, there's never been anything

presented to me about that entire story that I can go, yeah, I

believe that, okay, and that that you know fair enough, you know

honestly that the points you make and the evidence, uh, because I know

you have done the work, I trust you, And now it just kind

of sheds light that these are just stories and maybe in some scenarios are used

to tell people like me who want to believe right. Yeah, I mean,

don't get me wrong. I mean, so they said the pert and

so much as it sopposed as if they're an object lesson in how to do

research. But this is the thing to me, there are so much more,

there's so much more credible stuff that why make it up? Why make

it up? Some people like to sell books, some black people sell documentaries.

And also it's as you say, it serves a narrative sometimes because they're

trying to push something else and without that they can't then tell that story.

So there's a lot of that goes on. And yeah, well yeah,

I guess so. But yeah, because you know, just because people like

to tell and like to become famous for being you know, the person who

found this out if you like, because I've been given this information, I

can't tell you it's from, but it tells a story, you know.

You know, we've got people like that all over the place, and them

and not just a neuthology, you know, it's in different subjects. You

know, across history that you have people who come out of the wood work

and say I know something you don't and it gives them fame, fortune sometimes

and notority as well. So yeah, people people are allured to that.

Of course their allrd to that it's something about them and especially our community.

But also it also aligns to the aligns to people's world views occasionally as well.

So some people will think a certain thing and because that matches what they

think, they're more readily than somebody else would be, because yeah, it's

added evidence and it sits nicely the where they're going or what they're thinking about.

But because they don't do the ju Jillians, they don't see that actually

what they're what they're sort of hanging their hat on is full of holes.

You know, it just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Whereas I try to

be objective as possible. Yes, okay, I'm interested with the subject,

but there's for me, there's no sacred counts. And also, I'll just

give a caveat to all the stuff I've said before. If somebody comes out

tomorrow with a kind of cast iron guaranteed a bit of evidence that says,

actually, Graham, you're completely wrong, these things did exist, then I'll

be the first person to put my hands on and say, do you know

what I was wrong? This then proves it. But I've not seen that

information, and I can only go on what's available now I can. I'm

reaching my hand out to shake yours and say that it takes a big you

know. You know what, I've always said that myself if someone like like

you know currently they're the MH three seventy videos. Oh yeah, yeah,

you know, all that kind of stuff, and you know, I had

Ashton on and you know, it was it was interesting. But I just

the story is full of holes, and ultimately, as of right now,

I don't believe believe it, and I think there's I don't know, I

don't even know. You go back to the glocker, you see. The

things which are true are that the Germans didn't build underground factories because they had

to because their surface stuff, you know, the aircraft factories, board bearing

factories, they were getting bombed out of existence. So they did, first

of all, they started to like kind of disperse everything into smaller factories and

garage workshops and all the rest of it. They sub contracted out a lot

of stuff, and then they realized that it was easier just to build things

underground. So they were building rockets, they were building aircraft underground. They

were building you know, all kinds of munitions and stuff in the underground facilities,

a lot of the time built by slave labor. But they were building

them, but a lot of them weren't available at the end of the war

because they still weren't finished. And the ones that were, you know,

they weren't operating to anywhere, and that like the caind of capacity they did.

So that side of things is true. But then when you start hanging

these other bits on them, they say, oh, they were building this,

they were building that in in these places. That's why they getting a

bit wooly, and that's when the kind of the evidence dries up. In

terms of the Foo fighters, there were two things that an Italian author came

up with. He wrote the book originally about nineteen fifty six books that were

published until sixty eight, and he comes up with these two what they call

aerial fleck mines. So there are things that basically sniff out engine exhausts,

are attracted to it, and then they're supposed to interfere with the ignition systems

of aircraft and you drop them out the skies that way. And he calls

them google Blitz and fire ball ball, lightning fighter and fireball. That was

that's the English names. And he's called rin out of Vesco that this Italian

guy. Now this is again something else that you'll see all over the place,

which are presented as fact because people have read about this and they think

that because he has all these footnotes in the book that he wrote about these

things, then it must be true because he reckons he's written, he's looked

at research documents and all the rest of it. Again, it's one of

these stories where yes, the footnotes do relate the stuff that you can prove,

but when he tries to actually give you evidence for these things that he's

purporting to be, these sickert weapons that the Germans built, those references dry

up completely. He doesn't have any evidence for them. So you know,

it's again one of these stories where there's enough kind of truth there to build

a story around, but whether the story itself is false or it doesn't have

supporting documentation. But everything else I was great, So why isn't that bit

true? And people who aren't maybe capable of this extra little leap in terms

of you know, looking to see well is that true? Is that not

true? They've just accepted all as being fact. But actually, if you

look a bit closely, you'll see you know where it just like you know,

you can't cover the bits that he's trying to sell the reader. And

I read that book. I've probably got to copy that book something in about

nineteen eighty, a long time ago. And I looked at this and already

I knew about, you know, virtually all the secret weapons programs that the

Germans were building or had planned or you know, this kind of thing.

And I looked at this book and I thought, well, I've never come

across these before. Actually I had come across one of them, but for

something completely different. The name was used for a tank which had an ant

the aircraft gun, and it was it was it was a self propelled and

the aircraft gun called google Blitz, and that was the only way name and

actually a place that I ever come across that name. And I certainly had

to come across it as a you know, as an aerial kind of mine,

if you like. So I knew there was something off straight away.

And then just the more and more I looked into it, the less I

found out. And I found a few people who had a similar kind of

viewpoint, and they've done a little bit more research than I had, so

I was able to build on that as well. But then to counter that,

you just saw person after person coming up and parroting this stuff in whether

it was magazines or in documentaries or in books, and you just you just

kind of like shake your head and think, oh, for God's sake,

you know, just read a bit more deeper. In listening, you would

assume that that when you're making these documentaries, like you'd have it at least

a couple of people dedicated to like vetting, But they don't. It's all

for entertainment. And that's the problem. You know, it looks good,

right, and and you know, I come in guys like James Fox because

I think they do great work in their documentaries and that's what I aspire to

do. Uh, and I have been doing, you know, like that's

what I went to school for. This is what I want to do.

And this topic is one that intrigues me so much. But I kind of

I want to fast forward a little bit and I want to talk about the

DC flyovers. Now this is talking about Yeah, so a lot of people

and we're gonna get there, right, We're gonna I think we might go

over our sweet spot. But uh and if so, we we let me

create a marker here actually because I might edit this part. I'll probably have

to edit this one. I just want to run something by you if we

do, because I think if you're open, i'd be willing to go another

thirty minutes because I want to fush if that's all right with you, Tyler.

Sorry, but I can do something else another time. You feel like

all right, all right, then let's just finish this now. I was

just send your message in the private chat. Sorry, but yeah, okay,

so let's we'll end it. We'll end it with the flyovers, but

I'm gonna label this as part one. Would you still be open to original

time and doing a part two? Yeah, of course, yeah, I'll

be happy with that, and then we can get into like things like the

Battle of Los Angeles Phoenix Light and I have I have a huge thing that

I want to run across you, especially because you were you know, and

that's when you are getting interested. I have evidence or or a lot of

cases that happened between a certain period nineteen seventy three, and I want to

talk to you about it because I think so between September and December of nineteen

seventy three, there was a surge. I don't think it was just in

the United States, but there. I want to run some things by you,

so we could do that in a later episode. But all right,

cool, So one four. Okay, So the DC flyovers. A lot

of people ask, well, what if aliens are here, why don't they

just land on the White House lot. Well, in nineteen fifty two,

over two consecutive weekends, they practically did almost Yeah, could you? And

and again, if I was a UFO, I'm not going to land on

the lawn. I'm not trying to get killed, but I will pass over.

And I think this is a huge, huge moment. And I don't

think it's it's again. It's one of these more credible stories that you hear

about all the time. But just to play down this is a huge event.

It was for the time, yeah, because things have been vamping up

to that point. Anyway, the kind of momentum for kind of flying source

of sightings was just building from nineteen forty seven to the point of where you

know, it was being discussed by pretty much everybody. Everybody had and I

had some knowledge of all this stuff that was appearing in the newspapers because they

were picking up on every sighting that was going, whether it was from people

on the ground, just people you know, order me walks of life,

or whether there were military pilots until they put the kind of block on pilots

talking about the sightings, but airline pilots were seeing them as well. So

there was a lot of sightings up to this point in July nineteen fifty two,

and he says, yeah, as you say, over two successive weekends,

so we're talking about the nineteenth of July and twenty sixth of July over

Washington, d C. There was all these radar conducts, but also they

weren't just on radar that the pilots were seeing. That these kind of points

are light in the sky, which corresponded to these radar contacts on the screen

at Washington National Airport. Nobody knew what they were. And in one one

of the early sort of part of the story, the tower basically asked one

of the airline pilots who was who was in the in the circuit or just

taken off, you know, can you have a look to see what this

thing is that they they'd seen, and also it was on a radar and

he said, yeah, I can see something, but I don't know what

it is. So this is the kind of thing that happened. And the

controllers didn't know what was happening. They've never seen anything like this. They

knew what radar angels were like, you know, these kind of spurious echoes

that appear on the radar system. There were they were, yeah, they

were, but they were highly trained. And of course, you know,

it's a big position of responsibility to be on such a large airport in the

major city, well not just the capital any but let's just say any major

city with a big airport. So whether it was Los Angeles, whether San

Francisco or New York or Washington, you know, you're going to have a

big team of controllers who are very well you know, they're very well trained,

they're experienced, they know all the little foibles of their area and what's

picked up and what comes up on the radar and all this kind of stuff.

They're not going to be fooled by something that, you know, you

could explain as just a temperature conversion, because that was what the Air Force

came up and said. They basically were that they were just seeing, you

know, something that was produced by by by a strange fluck of nature,

if you like. But in the meantime, on these two weekends, these

things, these lights of the sky were being seen, but also on the

radar. Now it took the Air Force quite a long time to respond.

They were told pretty much straight away by the staff at Washington National but something

was happening, and could you look as well? So this is just a

cross. I think it was Andrew's Air Force Base, as Andrews Field was

well then that they were. Some of the staff there were asked, can

you see what's happening? And some of them were seeing some of the lights

in the sky as well from a distance. So it was as if you

know, things were happening in isolation, and people on the ground were saying

things as well, and they just cummulated in. The Air Force eventually sending

jets from Delaware because that was the nearest active Air Force base, and it

took them a little while to get there. I think it was something like

three hours after the first reports before the first jets got on the scene.

And of course when they turned up, the conducts melted away and as soon

as the jets turned back for fuel to land for refueling, because they didn't

have that much fuel on board in those days. They couldn't stay up for

that for very long. As soon as they left the area, the conducts

came back, so playing cat and mouse with the jet fighters. Were any

pictures ever released of this? No, And I wanted to clear that up

because there is a famous picture. There is a famous picture, but it's

wrong because they're basically reflections of the lights of the street lights. Yeah,

you're one, I think the one I think you're talking to talk about.

You went on a podcast and I love that podcast run by Jason and but

he had talked about the picture and I was like, well that actually that

picture actually wasn't real. So there's no actual pictures of the event, but

there's very much so credibility in the witnesses and the several controllers. Was also

there was a spokesman for the Air Force from the Pentagon, a guy called

al Chop was around. He was he was there. He was the one

that pushed all the reporters out of the room when things were getting a bit

more hectic. So you've got pilots, So you got airline pilots, You've

got the jet fighter plates who had also been interviewed by various people as well,

So there's a whole you know, kind of range of voices in terms

of what was going on. But then after the second weekend, you know,

things Kent were head because it was quite clear that these things were flying

over over the airspace of Washington, over the capital over Yeah, yeah,

without any kind of response. Once being effective, the Air Force were effectively

impotent, you know, and questions were probably being asked us to well,

why can't you do something about this? Is this going to happen for a

third week? But so there was a press conference called by the US Air

Force, you know, on the Monday morning after the second weekend, and

there was various people dragged out Major General Stanford, who was quite high up

an intelligence he was, he was wheeled out and he was the one,

if you've e't seen the footage, and gives that kind of speech, and

he he comes across quite unconvincing as well, that he's you know, he's

he's almost reading for a prompt kind of thing, and he's a bit spiltered.

And but the press when they were there, they lapped it all up

because it was it was coming from an authority of source they had people who

were experts in radar, who were you saying about these radar anomalies, Well,

they must be a temperature inversion, et cetera. Except they hadn't really

looked at what was happening over those two weekends. So there was all that

stuff going on, and the press basically bought it. So it took some

of the heat out of the situation. And I don't think they ever had

the same kind of not interest, that's the wrong word, just the same

kind of conviction about the source of stories. Afterwards, they're still report of

them and still reporting them on numbers, but there wasn't that saying what's going

on, we need to know what's happening, you know, is there's something

too, is we get you know, people are getting scared out there,

and I think they've been building up to that up until those two weekends and

then a press conference and the Air Force basically just took all the heat out

of the situation and deflective from the attention away from themselves. Yeah, it's

the Phoenix lights, you know scenario, it's the it's the it's it's what

would let them or it trained them on the on the phoenix lights. Uh,

when the town or city basically came, you know, screaming for answers

something like that. So they have a explanation, which sounds good. Take

a lot of takes a lot, a lot of boxes, and for a

lot of people, it makes complete sense. We know, and and and

and and up in an episode our next episode will we'll get into Project Sign

and Project Rudge because I I think there's I mean, there's so much to

talk about with you and Project Sign, Project Grudge, uh, which would

eventually become Project blue Book, which would be uh. Basically, it's a

public It was a public relationship that you samples. Yeah, yeah, in

a very in a very you know, but done so deliberately to stigmatize and

to ridicule the citizens and and really create that hostile environment for reporting because you

didn't want to be labeled as crazy or get your you know, in Pilot's

cases, they didn't want to get their wings taken away or go see this

the shrink for you know, a forty eight hour a vow evl. So

it really, I mean that's when the military industrial complex really institutes the stigma

around the topic. And I want to talk more about you about that but

your latest book you focused on nineteen fifty six, in sorry, nineteen fifty

six, God nineteen fifty five, in nineteen fifty six, and the book

is incredible. But all your books are available on Amazon. But maybe you

could tell us more about you know, just what the books are, you

know what you're aiming to do. They can find you on social media.

Okay. So after I wrote UFOs before oswell, which was the book about

the food Fighters, So then embarked on what it's now turned into a long

running series of books about aerial UFO encounters, and I picked kind of specific

years. So the first book, which it was during the Flying Sources,

was from nineteen forty six to nineteen forty nine. It tells a story of

not just aerial sightings but also the US Air Force's kind of response to these,

so the setting up, if you like, of Project Signed, Project

Grudge. And then the next book was Flying Source of Fever, which dealt

with fifty two fifty to fifty two, which fully of has a forward from

Loue Alizondo as well, so he contributed to the book. So it tells

a similar story but for those years. And then the next one was Intercept

and Identify, which was nineteen fifty three and nineteen fifty four. And then

the latest books that I just mentioned, there's Chasing Shadows, were a forward

by yeah, by Sable And that's so it's reader an appreciation for those particular

years without being a huge, huge book because I tried to throw the kitchen

to sink at you know, in terms of the amount of information to do

with each case, you know, everything I can find I present rather than

just like kind of information of the case, which is we'll see it take

maybe you know, a couple of paragraphs if you're lucky, sometimes a page

if you're really lucky. I try to give you everything so you can make

your own mind up about what happened, because the more information, yeah people

have, the better as far as I'm concerned. And you have been an

absolutely amazing guest. I am enthralled, and I don't want to end the

conversation, but it looks like this will just be part one, Part one,

and and and thank you for for coming here and and spending some time

with uh my audience and total disclosure Graham. Uh uh you know, uh,

I consider your friend now of the show, and we really look forward

to having you back on because I think, I think this is a great

conversation and I really want to start diving into the history because again, you

know, we studied at the start. Uh. The definition of insanity is

doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome. Right,

So we really need to study our past in order to understand what's going

to happen in the future or what's you know, so we don't make the

same mistakes at least and learning from it. So you are are absolutely an

authority, leading authority in my mind on this this this this realm and uh,

you know, uh, look, I really look forward to having you

back on, and for everybody listening, I want to say thank you to

you as well. You guys keep the show going, especially you know the

members who uh contribute to the show. If it was for you, we

wouldn't be doing it or couldn't be doing it. I would do this even

if zero people, like if nobody listened, I would still do this.

I love it. I'm a collector of stories, Graham, That's what I

am. And for everyone out there, let you know what it is,

uh, and we'll see you next time. Thank you again, Graham.

Thanks very much, cheers, cheers and sent and Sen

#106 Graeme Rendall- - WWII & Foo Fighters, SECRET Nazi Technology & The Rise of Modern UFOlogy

Get Updates on New Episodes and EXCLUSIVE ACCESS TO TDP STUDIOS