A Human-Alien Hybrid Program? With Whitley Strieber

0:07 Speaker 1: Try to keep the aliens on their toes.

0:09 Speaker 2: There's a typical close encounter witness. They move around a lot,

0:12 Speaker 2: they all do. I'm not alone, right, but I've got

0:15 Speaker 2: the visitors living. I'm not the visitors, but people who

0:18 Speaker 2: are connected to them directly living just a short distance

0:22 Speaker 2: from where I am in Santa Monica.

0:24 Speaker 1: And the people connected to them. Who's them?

0:26 Speaker 2: The visitors, the Grays, Oh.

0:28 Speaker 1: You know, people that are connected to them?

0:30 Speaker 2: Of course, Oh, I am. That's why an implant, That's

0:33 Speaker 2: what it is. That's why what the implant in my

0:37 Speaker 2: ear is. It's it'll turn on during the interview and

0:42 Speaker 2: you'll be talking to me and to them.

0:45 Speaker 1: You don't have an implant to pull my leg.

0:47 Speaker 2: No, I'm not telling you the truth. You don't know

0:49 Speaker 2: about it. You never read the books.

0:51 Speaker 1: I read Communion.

0:52 Speaker 2: Oh okay, you've only read Community.

0:53 Speaker 1: You've only read Communion.

0:54 Speaker 2: Okay, well let's talk about it.

0:56 Speaker 1: You have forty books, I mean I don't have. I

0:57 Speaker 1: got yeah, I accord, like three of these.

1:00 Speaker 2: I understand that. I understand that. Okay, yeah, I have this. Well,

1:06 Speaker 2: i'll tell you the story. I'll just give you a

1:07 Speaker 2: brief presis now perfect. It was put in in nineteen

1:10 Speaker 2: eighty nine. I was wide awake when it was done.

1:13 Speaker 2: It was done by two people people. There's a whole

1:16 Speaker 2: lot of people who are connected with the visitors are

1:18 Speaker 2: connected with them, and these were two of them. And

1:26 Speaker 2: I couldn't use it for years, but after my wife

1:30 Speaker 2: died it began to become useful and it now is

1:35 Speaker 2: my absolute go to. It's like having an unbelievable AI,

1:41 Speaker 2: only whatever's on the other side of it is not

1:43 Speaker 2: artificial but brilliant. And it works with me when I'm writing.

1:51 Speaker 2: At three o'clock every morning, I get up and there's

1:56 Speaker 2: a dialogue that goes on. It's not like channeling. It's

2:00 Speaker 2: much more direct than that. It's very direct, and during

2:07 Speaker 2: interviews it will be working most of the time, and

2:12 Speaker 2: it turns sometimes it will turn off in the middle

2:14 Speaker 2: of an interview, which turn off. Yeah, then it's like

2:19 Speaker 2: my mind becomes much smaller. It's what it feels like

2:22 Speaker 2: is your mind gets very large. You have a very

2:25 Speaker 2: large complex and all kinds of things are available to

2:29 Speaker 2: your memory that aren't normally there, and then when it

2:34 Speaker 2: turns off, you're back to being your normal self.

2:37 Speaker 1: Can you see it behind your heel? It. Yeah, you

2:40 Speaker 1: can feel it right here? Yeah?

2:41 Speaker 2: Have you ever like had a doctor look at it? Absolutely,

2:45 Speaker 2: it's I've got an MRI scan of it. In fact,

2:47 Speaker 2: i'll send it to you on one, I mean a

2:49 Speaker 2: CT scan of it.

2:50 Speaker 1: Is it online? We can look at it?

2:51 Speaker 2: Oh, let me.

2:53 Speaker 1: You don't have to show right now, we can we can.

2:55 Speaker 1: You can send it to us after and we can

2:56 Speaker 1: look at it. Yeah.

2:57 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll give it to you afterwards. I can just

2:59 Speaker 2: send it to it's right here, I have it.

3:00 Speaker 1: And what and what does it look like?

3:02 Speaker 2: On the a little white dot because it's metal and

3:05 Speaker 2: on the CT scan it looks like a round white dot.

3:11 Speaker 2: It you want to see it now?

3:12 Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, let me see it. Yeah, I'd love to

3:14 Speaker 1: see it.

3:16 Speaker 2: This is you know, being connected to this doesn't mean

3:19 Speaker 2: I love them, I'm I'm their friend. It does mean

3:25 Speaker 2: that I don't know exactly who I am connected to.

3:29 Speaker 2: But whoever I am connected to, uh is is uh ah?

3:41 Speaker 1: Let me see if I can find it easily? And

3:43 Speaker 1: what did what made you decide to leave it in

3:46 Speaker 1: your ear? And my wife?

3:48 Speaker 2: My wife at the beginning when I realized the next morning,

3:52 Speaker 2: I'll tell you the whole story on the air.

3:54 Speaker 1: I think we're rolling. We're up. Oh, we're up. Now

3:57 Speaker 1: we're not live, but we're recording it. Yeah, okay, this

4:00 Speaker 1: this is great.

4:01 Speaker 2: All right because yeah, after the day after it was

4:05 Speaker 2: put in, I felt it and I could feel it

4:10 Speaker 2: back in their hurt, and you know, I knew something

4:15 Speaker 2: had happened the night before. I remember it vividly. I

4:17 Speaker 2: remember every detail. But uh well, let me let me,

4:22 Speaker 2: let me hear it is good. You take a look.

4:25 Speaker 2: You can see it. That's the left side that's reversed

4:28 Speaker 2: on a on a CT scan. See that little white

4:30 Speaker 2: dot on the left side. Yeah, that's the implant.

4:36 Speaker 1: And what did your doctors or whoever did the MRI

4:42 Speaker 1: I say about it?

4:43 Speaker 2: The CT scan? That CT scan was done by someone

4:47 Speaker 2: in the CIA? What who wanted it very badly to

4:51 Speaker 2: be taken out? But I wouldn't let him.

4:55 Speaker 1: Yeah, how did you get a CT scan done by

4:58 Speaker 1: somebody in the No?

5:00 Speaker 2: On the CT scan was done privately at his request

5:04 Speaker 2: by a doctor who he called and sat up.

5:10 Speaker 1: Okay, how did you get how did a CIA person

5:14 Speaker 1: get to find out about your implant?

5:22 Speaker 2: I'm known to them to the IC to be a

5:26 Speaker 2: legitimate close encounter witness and they are interested in that.

5:31 Speaker 1: Why do you think the CIA is so interested in

5:33 Speaker 1: people who have had close encounters?

5:35 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think they kind of backed into

5:37 Speaker 2: it because their brief is foreign intelligence, and this is

5:42 Speaker 2: about as foreign as foreign intelligence can get. And when

5:46 Speaker 2: the CIA was first founded, the Roswell incident occurred, the

5:53 Speaker 2: Army Air Corps became the Air Force, and the CIA

5:56 Speaker 2: was founded, and the National Security Act was passed all

5:59 Speaker 2: in the same few months. And this was like July

6:04 Speaker 2: July forty seventh, July to October forty seven, and so

6:08 Speaker 2: all of the infrastructure was then in place, and I

6:11 Speaker 2: think it was just a very natural thing that CIA

6:16 Speaker 2: would be the go to agency to study this, and

6:22 Speaker 2: that's what happened. Who was it? Who was the first

6:25 Speaker 2: guy who studied worked on it? He became the Russia

6:29 Speaker 2: Desk later.

6:32 Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, I think I know what you're talking about. Yeah,

6:37 Speaker 1: is this a weird desk guy?

6:38 Speaker 2: No? No, No, the Russia Desk was He was a

6:42 Speaker 2: Oh anyway, I met him in college before I knew

6:47 Speaker 2: anything about any of this. I had breakfast with him

6:49 Speaker 2: without knowing why. So he already knew that this probably

6:54 Speaker 2: would happen to me when I was in college in

6:56 Speaker 2: the sixties.

6:58 Speaker 1: You randomly met him at breakfast?

7:00 Speaker 2: No, I didn't randomly meet him. He called me and

7:07 Speaker 2: said that he wanted to meet me, and I said

7:12 Speaker 2: I have classes, and he said, well, why don't we

7:16 Speaker 2: have breakfast? And so we went to breakfast together at

7:18 Speaker 2: the Commons at the University of Texas, and he oh.

7:24 Speaker 2: I remember now. I had told my father, who was

7:28 Speaker 2: not a member of the intelligence community but his brother was,

7:32 Speaker 2: and he knew a lot of people in it, that

7:33 Speaker 2: I was interested in possibly joining the Central Intelligence Agency

7:38 Speaker 2: because I knew a little bit about my brought my

7:41 Speaker 2: uncle's work in the Air Force intelligence and it sounded exciting.

7:45 Speaker 2: I was an innocent young kid, and Dad said, as usual,

7:49 Speaker 2: closed mouthway, Okay, Well, you'd have to fill out an application,

7:54 Speaker 2: wouldn't you, And I said, yeah, I would. He said, well, god,

7:57 Speaker 2: we'll go ahead and find see if they send you

7:59 Speaker 2: an application, fill it out. He sounded real cheerful about it.

8:04 Speaker 2: So I went about finding out how to apply, and

8:07 Speaker 2: a few days before I even applied, this call comes

8:11 Speaker 2: from this man whose name is still blocking me. On

8:16 Speaker 2: being seventy nine years old, you have these things with

8:19 Speaker 2: mental these name block it anyway. This guy calls out

8:24 Speaker 2: of the blue at my dorm.

8:26 Speaker 1: Is it Ron Pandelphi? No, no, no.

8:28 Speaker 2: Ron Pandelphie was much younger. This was this Ron. This

8:33 Speaker 2: was a serious member of the organizers. Lem Me, I'm

8:37 Speaker 2: going to look. He was eventually drummed out because he

8:43 Speaker 2: became obsessed with.

8:45 Speaker 1: Moles, a lot of moles during the Cold War. Yeah, well,

8:50 Speaker 1: I don't know why I can't remember his name. That's okay,

8:53 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. We can keep going. Yeah, it's probably

8:57 Speaker 1: best not to say too many CIA folks names this

9:00 Speaker 1: podcast anyways, because.

9:01 Speaker 2: Oh no, it's okay. It's he's dead and he's well known.

9:03 Speaker 1: He's nothing, it's nothing new, it's nothing.

9:07 Speaker 2: I don't I don't say that. I don't want to

9:08 Speaker 2: say any names of living CIA agents, except the ones

9:12 Speaker 2: who are out like uh Semi Van, Jim Semi Van.

9:15 Speaker 2: I mean, everybody knows he's in c A, makes no

9:18 Speaker 2: secret of it. So it was, well, I can't remember

9:25 Speaker 2: his name.

9:26 Speaker 1: Do you want to put your headphones on or do

9:28 Speaker 1: you prefer not to have them on? Does it does

9:29 Speaker 1: it bother your ear?

9:30 Speaker 2: Well? Yeah, I'm it bothers this a little bit. Yeah,

9:34 Speaker 2: because this gets very hot while I'm working, and with

9:38 Speaker 2: a headphone, it gets really.

9:39 Speaker 1: So what did the CIA so? The CI, this guy

9:42 Speaker 1: we're talking about, he told you you needed to get well.

9:45 Speaker 2: He said to me that I was too patriotic and

9:47 Speaker 2: that the CIA was infiltrated with Russian moles and I

9:51 Speaker 2: would get killed if I become became an officer.

9:55 Speaker 1: You would be killed by a mole.

9:57 Speaker 2: That's what he said.

9:58 Speaker 1: Yeah, because you were too patriotic, been too too patriotic.

10:03 Speaker 2: And I don't know if that was true or not,

10:07 Speaker 2: but it scared the hell out of me because suddenly

10:09 Speaker 2: I was talking to this little gnomic man in a

10:11 Speaker 2: black suit and he's telling me that I'm too patriotic

10:15 Speaker 2: and I should not join the CIA because it's full

10:19 Speaker 2: of Russian moles, and I thought, Holy God. Eventually he

10:24 Speaker 2: was fired because of his obsession with Russian moles or

10:27 Speaker 2: forced to retire.

10:30 Speaker 3: A little bit of schizophrenia. Schizophrenia, Well something was wrong

10:33 Speaker 3: with him, But at the time he was, you know,

10:36 Speaker 3: a major guy in the Central Intelligence Agency.

10:40 Speaker 1: In the in the fifties, sixties.

10:43 Speaker 2: Fifties and sixties. I know how to find it. I'm

10:46 Speaker 2: gonna look on chat GPT. Okay, it's just right on

10:53 Speaker 2: tip of my tongue. I've probably heard of his name.

10:57 Speaker 1: I had a guy in the podcast name John Newman

10:59 Speaker 1: who wrote a book called Popov's Mole, all about Russian

11:03 Speaker 1: moles in the CIA leading up to the Kennedy Kennedy assassination.

11:10 Speaker 1: There was moles that we were infiltrated with moles, and

11:13 Speaker 1: they were infiltrated with moles. It was crazy. I think

11:16 Speaker 1: they probably had more more Russian moles inside the CIA

11:21 Speaker 1: than we had the other way around. I'm sure you

11:26 Speaker 1: find it.

11:27 Speaker 2: No, it won't tell me.

11:29 Speaker 1: That's okay.

11:30 Speaker 2: Some of the bullshit about the classified documents, what specific words.

11:37 Speaker 1: Yeah, he can look it up.

11:42 Speaker 2: He was the CIA Russia Desk in the fifties and

11:45 Speaker 2: sixties and early sixties, and he was eventually drummed out

11:50 Speaker 2: because of his.

11:53 Speaker 1: His CIA officer in charge of Russia Desk fifties, nineteen fifties,

11:58 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties. Yes, Harold Jim, it was Jim Angleton. Jim oh, oh,

12:03 Speaker 1: James Jesus Angleton. Yeah anyway, yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

12:10 Speaker 1: I know a lot about that guy. His son actually

12:11 Speaker 1: lives here in Tampa. He did interest anymore. What I

12:16 Speaker 1: think his son lives here in Tampa. Well, anyway, he

12:18 Speaker 1: told me that Jim Angleton told me that the CIA

12:24 Speaker 1: was had Russian moles in it, and then I would

12:27 Speaker 1: be likely killed because I was too patriotic if I

12:30 Speaker 1: joined it. Wow.

12:32 Speaker 2: And uh so yeah there he is. Wow man, he

12:40 Speaker 2: smoked like a chimney under anything like it. Uh. Anyway,

12:46 Speaker 2: he was apparently my dad knew him or somehow my

12:51 Speaker 2: name got to.

12:52 Speaker 1: Him, or how was your dad involved in all that?

12:54 Speaker 1: I don't know. Whenever your dad was in the Air Force.

12:57 Speaker 2: No, my dad was in the army during World War

13:00 Speaker 2: Two in the Judge Adfrica General's Corps. And he said

13:08 Speaker 2: a number of things about what he did. He said

13:11 Speaker 2: he found rental housing for war widows, war women whose

13:17 Speaker 2: husbands were at war. And he also said he picked

13:21 Speaker 2: up cigarette butts on the streets of Fort sam Houston

13:26 Speaker 2: and that was his war work. In other words, he

13:30 Speaker 2: wasn't telling me truth, right.

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15:06 Speaker 1: say he was friends with LBJ? Dad was? Well?

15:10 Speaker 2: That was also Dad was so secretive you couldn't tell.

15:14 Speaker 2: He seemed to be. His brother in law was Attorney

15:17 Speaker 2: General of Texas all through the nineteen fifties, and he

15:21 Speaker 2: used to go out to Odessa to his brother in

15:24 Speaker 2: law's house where they would meet with LBJ. And once

15:27 Speaker 2: the whole family went out and took a big family picture,

15:30 Speaker 2: so I know it it's real. But Dad just never

15:34 Speaker 2: said much of anything about anything. He had a very

15:38 Speaker 2: successful career as an oil operator and a lawyer. He

15:43 Speaker 2: was apparently fluent in Spanish, although I have never heard

15:46 Speaker 2: him speak a word of it. Because he was an

15:49 Speaker 2: expert at finding Spanish Empire land titles, which is a

15:55 Speaker 2: very important issue in Texas. Probably is in Florida too.

15:59 Speaker 2: It's it called Spanish from the from the Spanish Empire, right,

16:03 Speaker 2: the land titles that go back, you know, because the

16:06 Speaker 2: titles can be valid all the way back there's they

16:10 Speaker 2: weren't they weren't ever the titles, at least in Texas

16:15 Speaker 2: weren't ever vacated.

16:17 Speaker 1: All of Texas used to be Mexico, right, right, exactly.

16:19 Speaker 2: And when the Republic of Texas came along, they didn't

16:23 Speaker 2: want to vacate all of the Hispanic people's titles because.

16:28 Speaker 1: Right because they the USA just swallowed up like a

16:31 Speaker 1: ton of Mexico, right, yeah, right, people.

16:35 Speaker 2: People out the Republic of Texas, and then and then

16:38 Speaker 2: when it came into the USA, the titles just stayed intact,

16:41 Speaker 2: got it, Okay. So so Dad was an expert at

16:44 Speaker 2: that meaning he must have known Spanish very well, but

16:48 Speaker 2: he never spoke it.

16:49 Speaker 1: In my presence, in my life. Interesting he.

16:55 Speaker 2: As far as this stuff is concerned. I remember him

16:58 Speaker 2: taking me out to the country house to meet these

17:01 Speaker 2: visitors a couple of times.

17:03 Speaker 1: Your dad taking you to the country house meets the well,

17:07 Speaker 1: I don't have any my memories.

17:10 Speaker 2: Stop at the I'll tell you one of the stories.

17:15 Speaker 2: All of a sudden one day, one evening, he said, said,

17:20 Speaker 2: we're going to go out to the country house to me, and.

17:27 Speaker 1: We left. It was it was.

17:30 Speaker 2: I don't know what time it was, but it felt

17:32 Speaker 2: pretty late to me. I was a little boy. I

17:34 Speaker 2: was probably eight nine maybe at most, and I was

17:38 Speaker 2: pretty confused, but I didn't say anything, because you know,

17:41 Speaker 2: I didn't want to contradict my dad, you know, I

17:44 Speaker 2: I he was just told me we were going there.

17:48 Speaker 2: We got there and we went up onto the It

17:53 Speaker 2: had a big wrap around double porch upstairs and downstairs.

17:56 Speaker 2: A beautiful old house is still in the family, and

18:01 Speaker 2: unfortunately for me, it's in the I'm the distaff side,

18:04 Speaker 2: so it's it's in my cousin's side at the actual ownership.

18:09 Speaker 1: But I still am allowed to go there anytime I want.

18:12 Speaker 2: Any case. We went there and we went onto the

18:18 Speaker 2: porch and then out into the front yard. It was

18:22 Speaker 2: a beautiful night, and this thing that was square looking

18:27 Speaker 2: and very brightly lit came flying over the house, tumbling

18:35 Speaker 2: over and over and went down into the pasture behind

18:38 Speaker 2: the house, and I could see a glow back there.

18:41 Speaker 2: Dad became completely silent. He was just standing there like

18:45 Speaker 2: he was turned off, and I knew I had to

18:48 Speaker 2: go down there. When this car came up to the driveway,

18:52 Speaker 2: moving very fast, faster than a normal car could, and

18:56 Speaker 2: it had two lights, but they were not bright, you know,

19:00 Speaker 2: they didn't shine. They were kind of dull glowing. They

19:04 Speaker 2: glowed dully, they didn't shine like regular car lights. And

19:08 Speaker 2: it moved very fast and stopped very suddenly, and I

19:11 Speaker 2: immediately knew I had to walk down into the back

19:14 Speaker 2: pasture and I where that glow was. And I did it.

19:18 Speaker 2: But I don't remember anything about what happened there, and

19:21 Speaker 2: that's the last of that memory. I don't remember being

19:24 Speaker 2: taken home or anything, but I guess I was. Another

19:28 Speaker 2: thing that happened was and this one was I remember

19:31 Speaker 2: pretty vividly. All of a sudden, after dinner, the family,

19:41 Speaker 2: my father announced that the family was going to the

19:43 Speaker 2: country house, but I was going to stay in San

19:46 Speaker 2: Antonio and I was eleven, And so they all pack

19:50 Speaker 2: up in the car and go driving off fifty miles

19:53 Speaker 2: north of San Antonio, leaving their eleven year old boy

19:55 Speaker 2: alone in the house. And you know, I have my

20:04 Speaker 2: dog and I watch a little TV. I get a

20:08 Speaker 2: little nervous and scared, you know, because I've never really

20:11 Speaker 2: done that before. And finally I go up to stairs

20:16 Speaker 2: to go to bed, and my bedroom had a window

20:19 Speaker 2: air conditioner in it, with the window above the sash.

20:24 Speaker 2: The upper sash was filled in so that it couldn't

20:28 Speaker 2: be pulled down. It had been pulled down, and all

20:30 Speaker 2: the insulation and others hanging out. And I could see

20:34 Speaker 2: on the roof of the house outside that I was

20:36 Speaker 2: on the second story, and there was a first story

20:38 Speaker 2: roof wing beside my room. There was a man standing there.

20:43 Speaker 2: I could see him in the dark, and I scared

20:46 Speaker 2: the living daylights out of me.

20:48 Speaker 1: So I ran.

20:49 Speaker 2: Downstairs and called the country house and I told my

20:52 Speaker 2: mother answered, and I told her that there was a

20:55 Speaker 2: man on the roof, and she said, well, call the police.

20:59 Speaker 2: And I said I would call the police, but there

21:02 Speaker 2: was no nine to eleven in those days, and I

21:04 Speaker 2: didn't know how to call the police. So I was

21:06 Speaker 2: looking in the phone book for a number for our

21:08 Speaker 2: local police department, Terrell Hills, Texas, and finally found it

21:13 Speaker 2: and I called him and I said, I'm home alone

21:15 Speaker 2: and there's a man on our roof. And so they

21:19 Speaker 2: sent a police officer and the following thing happens. Now,

21:23 Speaker 2: this is a little Texas one horse town in those days,

21:27 Speaker 2: so maybe he wasn't the best police officer in the world,

21:30 Speaker 2: and maybe that's why this happened. But he pulls up

21:33 Speaker 2: to the front of the house and he gets out,

21:36 Speaker 2: and he's got this huge gun in his hand, and

21:39 Speaker 2: he's walking up stalking up to the house, looks terrified,

21:45 Speaker 2: and I think, my what is going on?

21:49 Speaker 1: Why is he already scared?

21:51 Speaker 2: And so he comes into the house and I said,

21:53 Speaker 2: you can see him in the standing up on the roof,

21:57 Speaker 2: and if you go in the bed, and I pointed

22:01 Speaker 2: him out, and he goes up the stairs and immediately

22:04 Speaker 2: comes running down again, yells as he's passing there's nobody there.

22:07 Speaker 2: There's nobody there, runs back to his car and drives away.

22:12 Speaker 2: And there I am.

22:13 Speaker 1: And this was when you were how old? Eleven?

22:16 Speaker 2: Eleven eleven? And then my next memory is getting my

22:20 Speaker 2: breakfast the next morning and having them come in before noon.

22:24 Speaker 2: And I don't think anything was ever said about it.

22:26 Speaker 1: Now, all these memories that you have of your childhood,

22:29 Speaker 1: and all these experiences that you have from your young childhood,

22:33 Speaker 1: those didn't surface until I mean correct me if I'm wrong.

22:36 Speaker 1: But those seem to surface around in the eighties, is

22:39 Speaker 1: that right?

22:39 Speaker 3: No?

22:39 Speaker 2: No, these two, these two have always been with me.

22:42 Speaker 2: These two have always been the ones that surfaced later.

22:44 Speaker 2: And I wrote a book about this, called The Secret School.

22:47 Speaker 2: I'm very iffy about, you know, because memory. I've studied

22:51 Speaker 2: memory a lot, right, and memory is memory is not

22:56 Speaker 2: It's not marble, it's not even plastic. Memory is a liquid.

23:02 Speaker 2: It's a liquid. And so if you've got something fixed

23:07 Speaker 2: in your memory, that's a special kind of memory. Most

23:11 Speaker 2: memories are very malleable and very changeable. And you know,

23:18 Speaker 2: witness testimony is not reliable testimony. It never has been right,

23:22 Speaker 2: And unfortunately still in our courts we put people in

23:26 Speaker 2: jail all the time, all over the Western world, in fact,

23:29 Speaker 2: all over the world, based on bad memories. And so

23:33 Speaker 2: I'm very wary of my memory and very careful. So

23:38 Speaker 2: I don't talk about like in a situation like this,

23:42 Speaker 2: I don't talk about things that aren't direct fixed memory.

23:46 Speaker 2: I don't like the other memories from childhood. You can

23:48 Speaker 2: read The Secret School and decide for yourself whether or

23:51 Speaker 2: not you think they're true.

23:53 Speaker 1: To see, I didn't read the secret.

23:54 Speaker 2: Okay, well a secret schools. It's about my childhood.

23:58 Speaker 1: So let me ask you. Sorry to interrupt, but real quick,

24:00 Speaker 1: So was Communion your very first book about this about

24:03 Speaker 1: this stuff, and Communion was is arguably like one of

24:06 Speaker 1: the most popular books on this topic.

24:09 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's as far as I know, it's the most popular.

24:11 Speaker 1: It is the most popular book on alien abductions and

24:14 Speaker 1: this phenomenon in modern history.

24:16 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, it it initiated if the if contact is real,

24:20 Speaker 2: the book initiated contact. I mean it because it woke

24:23 Speaker 2: up millions of people up to those that face with

24:26 Speaker 2: those big black eyes on the cover.

24:29 Speaker 1: Now is your when you wrote about these creatures with

24:32 Speaker 1: the typical gray aliens with the big heads and the

24:34 Speaker 1: big black eyes. Were you the first one to bring

24:36 Speaker 1: this into the public sphere or was this already? Were

24:38 Speaker 1: there already like films being made about this? Not Betty

24:41 Speaker 1: and Barney Hill.

24:43 Speaker 2: Betty and Barney Hill's descriptions weren't like mine exactly?

24:47 Speaker 1: Were they prior to you?

24:48 Speaker 2: Though? Yeah? Okay, I knew about I had seen I

24:52 Speaker 2: think I'd seen an article in Look magazine about Betty

24:55 Speaker 2: and Barney Hill years before. But my interest in this

25:01 Speaker 2: was zero I had by the time I was in

25:04 Speaker 2: high school. I had those funny memories, but they didn't

25:11 Speaker 2: you know, they didn't really they just hung there because

25:14 Speaker 2: they didn't have They made no sense, and I didn't

25:19 Speaker 2: think about them. I had well, I had a period

25:24 Speaker 2: of time when I became very depressed in my early teens,

25:32 Speaker 2: because I think now it was because I used to

25:35 Speaker 2: have a lot of contact with the visitors when I

25:37 Speaker 2: was a boy, and they quit contacting me after I

25:40 Speaker 2: reached puberty. But here's the peculiar part of this. I

25:46 Speaker 2: was so depressed that my parents were afraid for my life,

25:50 Speaker 2: and they decided to for me to see a psychiatrist.

25:55 Speaker 2: And there was a period of time when there was

25:57 Speaker 2: a lot of discussion about who should he see. I

26:02 Speaker 2: end up with an army general who has a security

26:05 Speaker 2: clearance and who is a big psychiatrist in the US Army.

26:11 Speaker 2: Now why would they choose that person? And he says

26:14 Speaker 2: to me, Whitty, you can say anything you want to me.

26:18 Speaker 2: You can tell me anything. I didn't know what to

26:21 Speaker 2: think because I didn't have by that time. I just

26:24 Speaker 2: had those two memories, but they weren't important, and they

26:27 Speaker 2: weren't they didn't feel like why I was feeling so sad.

26:29 Speaker 1: Right, So is this around the time where you they

26:36 Speaker 1: put you on in Randolph Air Force Base or something?

26:38 Speaker 2: Now that happened earlier. Okay, Now that's another case where

26:45 Speaker 2: I thought for a long time that maybe that never happened.

26:51 Speaker 1: Maybe it never happened.

26:52 Speaker 2: But here is what proceeded to occur a few years ago.

26:57 Speaker 2: My closest friend in the world isn't very prominent in

27:03 Speaker 2: his field. He lives in Texas. I don't say his

27:07 Speaker 2: name because I don't. People would be very surprised if

27:10 Speaker 2: the two of us were know that two of us

27:13 Speaker 2: were such close friends.

27:14 Speaker 1: But we are.

27:15 Speaker 2: Each of us is the closest friend the other has.

27:18 Speaker 2: And I was telling him about this and his wife,

27:23 Speaker 2: and I was saying, and we were talking about it,

27:27 Speaker 2: and I had talked about it, and I was saying,

27:29 Speaker 2: you know how I was talking about memory actually is

27:32 Speaker 2: how it came up, and saying how dubious I was

27:35 Speaker 2: about memory. And he suddenly says to me, well, I.

27:37 Speaker 1: Remember that was specifically was he talking about?

27:40 Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you, I said, you remember, he said, yes,

27:45 Speaker 2: I was recruited. I was in the living room when

27:47 Speaker 2: they came and recruited me two Air Force officers. They

27:50 Speaker 2: recruited me asked my parents if I could join this

27:55 Speaker 2: program for bright children, which was a special education program

28:01 Speaker 2: at Randolph. And I was amazed, and I said, and

28:06 Speaker 2: you didn't. They didn't let you join? I said no,

28:09 Speaker 2: he said no. They mentioned when they mentioned a skinner box.

28:12 Speaker 2: My parents said they didn't want me involved because they

28:14 Speaker 2: didn't think that that was a good idea. And the

28:18 Speaker 2: idea as was as it must have been told to

28:21 Speaker 2: my parents. I was not present when I was recruited,

28:24 Speaker 2: and therefore I don't know what was said to them.

28:27 Speaker 2: That the child would be placed in this box that

28:30 Speaker 2: would use repetitive teaching for a high speed learning of

28:38 Speaker 2: advanced subjects. That was probably what they were told, because

28:43 Speaker 2: that was what the other parents were told. And so

28:45 Speaker 2: this boy did not get into this program. But I

28:48 Speaker 2: did get into it. I did. I got into it

28:50 Speaker 2: in July of nineteen fifty two. I thought for a

28:56 Speaker 2: while it was earlier, but it was not earlier. It

28:58 Speaker 2: was July of nineteen fifty two. And I'll tell you,

29:00 Speaker 2: I know that it was extremely stressful.

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31:03 Speaker 2: I went on Thursdays and I was I don't remember

31:10 Speaker 2: anything about it except being confined and they're being a

31:16 Speaker 2: very loud noise involved. That's all I remember. I confined. Yeah,

31:23 Speaker 2: I was like I guess I was in the skinner box.

31:26 Speaker 2: But that's what they said the other the parents of

31:28 Speaker 2: the other boy. Skinner Box Skinner BF Skinner was a

31:35 Speaker 2: was a psychologist who practiced in the nineteen fifties who

31:40 Speaker 2: came up with an idea of a high speed learning

31:45 Speaker 2: system where the person was placed in this box and

31:48 Speaker 2: was fed repetitive learning as I understand it, but I

31:54 Speaker 2: don't remember any competitive learning. I remember really loud noise,

31:57 Speaker 2: and in any case, I was in the skinner box.

32:05 Speaker 2: I guess that being in the skinner box must have

32:08 Speaker 2: been very stressful, because when I was going to school

32:12 Speaker 2: in that fall, I began to get all kinds of illnesses.

32:17 Speaker 2: I couldn't go to school for a few days before

32:20 Speaker 2: out coming down with another cold. And they took me

32:23 Speaker 2: to the doctor and the doctor said, he has no

32:26 Speaker 2: white blood cells. He's under tremendous stress of some kind.

32:32 Speaker 2: And they took me out of that. And where did

32:35 Speaker 2: I end up being treated for this lack of an

32:40 Speaker 2: immune system was at Brooke General hospital again a military hospital,

32:45 Speaker 2: and they gave me shots of gamma globulin, and I

32:48 Speaker 2: remember very vividly because the needles were huge, and I

32:52 Speaker 2: was a little boy, and these were doctors who were

32:54 Speaker 2: only used to dealing with adults. In one time, and

32:58 Speaker 2: maybe more than when the needle went all the way

33:00 Speaker 2: through my arm and got a globulin and went down

33:03 Speaker 2: my chest. So and I was there for a few

33:08 Speaker 2: days and very scared because I was alone and they

33:12 Speaker 2: didn't they I was in isolation, and you know, there

33:17 Speaker 2: was a sheet over the door, as I recall, and

33:20 Speaker 2: no one would come in, and when they did come in,

33:23 Speaker 2: they had masks on, and it was very scary. In fact,

33:29 Speaker 2: it scares me now thinking back on it. Anyway, soon

33:33 Speaker 2: I was sent home and I was isolated. I couldn't

33:41 Speaker 2: go I could get my food only in my bedroom,

33:44 Speaker 2: and then during the day when my sister was gone,

33:48 Speaker 2: I could go downstairs and go in the backyard and

33:50 Speaker 2: stay in the backyard. And so I was out of

33:52 Speaker 2: school from October through January until January. Interestingly enough, when

33:59 Speaker 2: my mother died, I found one thing she had saved

34:05 Speaker 2: from all my school years, which was my report card

34:08 Speaker 2: from that year. With all of the nun's neat handwriting

34:13 Speaker 2: absent due to illness, absent due to illness for all

34:16 Speaker 2: of those months. And I showed it to my sister

34:19 Speaker 2: and she said, how did you get this? My sister

34:23 Speaker 2: was eighteen months older than me, she's deceased now. And

34:28 Speaker 2: I said, well, it's in mother's box, her keepsakes. She

34:32 Speaker 2: said she should never have kept this, and I said, well,

34:35 Speaker 2: I'm going to keep it. The next thing, I knew

34:37 Speaker 2: it had disappeared, and my sister told me she didn't

34:39 Speaker 2: know where it was. She took it and hit it

34:41 Speaker 2: or threw it out for some reason. She did not

34:44 Speaker 2: want that known that you miss school. No, she didn't

34:48 Speaker 2: want the evidence. And I don't know whether she was

34:51 Speaker 2: programmed to do it, or she knew more about it

34:53 Speaker 2: than I did or not. I don't know, because maybe

34:55 Speaker 2: Mother had talked to her about it. I think Mother

34:57 Speaker 2: felt very guilty about it. That's why she would say

35:00 Speaker 2: that all those years, what do you think was going on?

35:02 Speaker 1: What do you think they were doing to kids like

35:04 Speaker 1: you at this military base that was this progressive learning?

35:08 Speaker 1: That was stressed that it wasn't progressive learning.

35:14 Speaker 2: I have theorized about it. I can't remember anything except

35:20 Speaker 2: the loud noise. This is my living memory. What I

35:25 Speaker 2: even have started a novel about it, called The Changeling,

35:29 Speaker 2: which I'm never going to finish because nobody will buy

35:32 Speaker 2: my fiction, only my nonfiction. Now, you know, I want

35:35 Speaker 2: to I want to eat eat, So I just anyway,

35:38 Speaker 2: maybe the maybe I will finish it and my kids

35:41 Speaker 2: can publish it after I die. It'll tell the whole story,

35:45 Speaker 2: the novel as fiction. But what I will say now

35:49 Speaker 2: is that I think they might have been trying to

35:54 Speaker 2: get me to leave my body to and are something

35:59 Speaker 2: like that.

36:00 Speaker 1: It was not like mk Ultriss been off or something.

36:03 Speaker 2: It was before and right before m k Ultrists started.

36:07 Speaker 2: And I think it had something to do with that

36:10 Speaker 2: sort of thing. And but what I mean, that's just

36:13 Speaker 2: a wild guess. Really, there could be any number of

36:16 Speaker 2: things they were trying to do.

36:18 Speaker 1: I mean, who knows, God.

36:20 Speaker 2: I mean, one thing I do know, whatever they were

36:23 Speaker 2: trying to do, it was total bs and it just

36:26 Speaker 2: hurt a little boy terribly and they should pay me

36:31 Speaker 2: for that, but they never will. You know, the records

36:35 Speaker 2: they always looking for these records in this disclosure, Congress

36:40 Speaker 2: is demanding that the records be brought forward, and then

36:43 Speaker 2: the DoD says, we don't have any records, and they're

36:46 Speaker 2: not lying because they've of offloaded them to the defense

36:50 Speaker 2: industry so they don't have to be FIA doesn't matter

36:55 Speaker 2: that the records aren't there in any case, as Art

36:57 Speaker 2: x and General X and Arthur x And told me

37:01 Speaker 2: long ago, he was a close friend of my uncle's

37:03 Speaker 2: and they were both at Right Field at the Air

37:07 Speaker 2: Materiel Command when the debris and bodies were brought in.

37:11 Speaker 1: So Roswell from.

37:12 Speaker 2: Roswell, yeahteen and July of nineteen forty seven. So no

37:15 Speaker 2: one can tell me it didn't happen, because it did,

37:18 Speaker 2: as I didn't get lied to by my own family

37:21 Speaker 2: and a good friend like General Xen, who was a

37:25 Speaker 2: very distinguished officer and also was commandant of Right pat

37:29 Speaker 2: for a long time.

37:31 Speaker 1: So what do you think that was? That Roswell? What

37:33 Speaker 1: do you think crashed? Oh?

37:34 Speaker 2: I can tell you precisely what crashed.

37:38 Speaker 1: It?

37:39 Speaker 2: Whyat crashed? I can't tell you. It was a device

37:43 Speaker 2: containing three entities which were part of the device. Essentially,

37:49 Speaker 2: they were biological entities, and supposedly one of them was

37:58 Speaker 2: still alive when it was brought to right. But General

38:02 Speaker 2: Xen didn't say anything about that. The only thing, and

38:05 Speaker 2: he didn't tell me this directly. He told me, told

38:07 Speaker 2: one of my relatives this that he had held one

38:11 Speaker 2: in his arms and it was like a big insect.

38:13 Speaker 2: That was this precise description. My uncle said that he

38:19 Speaker 2: had not. He didn't refer to the bodies. He referred

38:23 Speaker 2: only to the debris and the and the object, which

38:26 Speaker 2: he said was somewhat intact. And so they had from

38:32 Speaker 2: Roswell partially intact object and some debris.

38:37 Speaker 1: And bodies, three bodies, three bodies.

38:41 Speaker 2: And Walter Howt, who was the press officer at at

38:46 Speaker 2: the at the Army Air base in Roswell, left a

38:51 Speaker 2: an Affidavid which was published by his family after he died,

38:55 Speaker 2: describing all of this, the bodies and so forth, in

38:58 Speaker 2: great detail. And he said to me, I went out

39:01 Speaker 2: to Broswell to talk to him. He wouldn't talk about

39:05 Speaker 2: the bodies. I asked him point blank, were their bodies?

39:09 Speaker 2: And he was simply silent. He wouldn't say yes. He

39:13 Speaker 2: wouldn't say no because he didn't like to lie. He

39:15 Speaker 2: was a very straight up guy, straight ahead guy. What

39:19 Speaker 2: was And so he left this This is as much

39:22 Speaker 2: as he could do, and Colonel Jesse Marcel left a

39:27 Speaker 2: videotape with thanks to Stanton Friedman, where he describes in

39:34 Speaker 2: detail the debris that he found and brought in to

39:37 Speaker 2: his home in his station wagon with his little boy,

39:41 Speaker 2: who Doctor Marcel passed away just a couple of years ago,

39:45 Speaker 2: who attested to this story also, so it happened.

39:49 Speaker 1: Have you ever heard any Jacobson's account of this crash.

39:51 Speaker 2: I don't think it's correct. Yes, I do know it

39:53 Speaker 2: very well.

39:55 Speaker 1: It seems really compelling. I know it's I know a

39:58 Speaker 1: lot of people aren't a fan of that theory, but

40:01 Speaker 1: it's interesting that she's the only one that talks about

40:05 Speaker 1: it and no one else seems to appreciate it or

40:08 Speaker 1: take it seriously at all. You think it's you think

40:12 Speaker 1: the guy who told her. Essentially, for people that are listening,

40:16 Speaker 1: there's a Inny Jacobson wrote in her book Area fifty

40:18 Speaker 1: one that there was an engineer of a private aerospace

40:22 Speaker 1: company or something like that who was working in Arizona

40:25 Speaker 1: or Nevada who told Annie, under anonymity that the device

40:32 Speaker 1: that crashed in Roswell was a right brothers or something

40:38 Speaker 1: engineered craft like some sort of human made flying saucer

40:42 Speaker 1: with children that were surgically manipulated to look like aliens

40:48 Speaker 1: from the Nazi Mingel or mingle A.

40:51 Speaker 2: His name was, Yeah, I know the story, but go

40:53 Speaker 2: ahead and tell it.

40:54 Speaker 1: Because I just saw people who aren't familiar with it. Yeah,

40:56 Speaker 1: And essentially Stalin sent the aft over here, remote controlled

41:01 Speaker 1: it over here, and crashed it with these children, these

41:04 Speaker 1: Russian children that were deformed by this Nazi to sow

41:07 Speaker 1: chaos within the United States.

41:09 Speaker 2: Okay, I can tell you a lot about that and

41:12 Speaker 2: where that comes from.

41:13 Speaker 1: And let me let me just finish the end of it.

41:14 Speaker 1: She asked, this guy, Steven, you could probably find his

41:17 Speaker 1: name if you just google Annie Jacobson, engineer Roswell I

41:23 Speaker 1: find out who his name actually was. She actually talked

41:25 Speaker 1: about it on Lex's podcast Lex Friedman podcast recently, and

41:29 Speaker 1: she asked him later. She goes, you know, why wouldn't

41:33 Speaker 1: you make this public? Why is this such a big secret?

41:36 Speaker 1: Why are you waiting until you're essentially on your deathbed

41:38 Speaker 1: to tell me this? Why didn't you guys sit Because

41:40 Speaker 1: if you guys would have let the public know when

41:42 Speaker 1: this happened, it would not hurt the image of America.

41:45 Speaker 1: It would hurt the image of Russia because it makes

41:47 Speaker 1: them look like, you know, sikkos. It makes them look

41:49 Speaker 1: like like sinister people. The fact that they would do

41:52 Speaker 1: something like this, and his response to Annie was because

41:55 Speaker 1: we started doing the same thing as soon as we

41:58 Speaker 1: found what they did. As soon as we found out

42:00 Speaker 1: that they were altering children and doing this stuff in

42:03 Speaker 1: Roswell or in Russia, we started experimenting with the same thing.

42:07 Speaker 1: And we know that in the I think it was

42:12 Speaker 1: the seventies and eighties that there was projects going on

42:17 Speaker 1: on the East coast of the United States where they

42:19 Speaker 1: were injecting children with plutonium and all kinds of you know,

42:25 Speaker 1: nuclear material to test on them. I think Bill Clinton

42:28 Speaker 1: shut it down in like the early nineties.

42:31 Speaker 2: I don't know anything about that, and therefore I can't

42:33 Speaker 2: speak of it. But what I can speak of is

42:36 Speaker 2: of is what I do know. I'll circle back for

42:41 Speaker 2: a moment to General Xen and my uncle after I

42:47 Speaker 2: before I published Communion, I knew nothing about General xon

42:51 Speaker 2: and I knew nothing about my uncle's work in the

42:54 Speaker 2: Air Force. Nothing nobody in the family did. I knew

42:58 Speaker 2: one thing about it. Thing, which was that he had

43:01 Speaker 2: seen when they blew off a gigantic hydrogen bomb the

43:08 Speaker 2: Russians did in nineteen fifty nine, I think. And I

43:12 Speaker 2: happened to be at staying at an aunt and uncle's

43:15 Speaker 2: house in Washington at the time with a friend, and

43:19 Speaker 2: suddenly my uncle shows up. The aunt and uncle were

43:23 Speaker 2: on vacation in Spain, and he told me. I asked him,

43:30 Speaker 2: because I knew he was an intelligence officer, I just

43:33 Speaker 2: didn't know what he did. And I said, what do

43:35 Speaker 2: you think of this massive h bomb that went off

43:40 Speaker 2: they blew off in Russia? He said, oh, I saw it.

43:43 Speaker 2: It's the size of a football field. And I thought

43:47 Speaker 2: he saw it. How did he see it? And I said,

43:51 Speaker 2: when did you see it? He just laughed and didn't

43:54 Speaker 2: say anything more. So he was in, you know, in

43:58 Speaker 2: other words, he was deep in this intelligent in Air

44:01 Speaker 2: Force intelligence. Apparently, now after Communion was published, he suddenly

44:06 Speaker 2: telephones me. Now at this point he's in retirement at

44:09 Speaker 2: retirement village in Lachland at Lachland Air Force Base in

44:13 Speaker 2: San Antonio. Says Witty, I want you to come down.

44:16 Speaker 2: I've got some things I would like to talk about

44:19 Speaker 2: that have to do with your book, and I thought.

44:22 Speaker 2: I hung up and I said to Anne, my wife,

44:24 Speaker 2: I said, Mickey's going to talk to me about my book.

44:27 Speaker 2: Can you believe this? And so I go down and

44:30 Speaker 2: he and his wife and me and Anne have a lunch,

44:34 Speaker 2: and he talks about the debris and the object. As

44:40 Speaker 2: he put it, he I didn't ask him directly about

44:45 Speaker 2: bodies because it didn't occur to me at the time.

44:47 Speaker 2: I was just I hadn't done much. I hadn't been

44:51 Speaker 2: to Roswell yet, for example, and or no, I had

44:54 Speaker 2: been to Roswell, but I hadn't. In any case, it

44:57 Speaker 2: didn't the bodies didn't come up. He he he may

45:06 Speaker 2: have alluded to him. I've never been sure. I'm trying

45:11 Speaker 2: to remember if I you know, I always say that

45:17 Speaker 2: he didn't say anything about the bodies, and I don't think.

45:19 Speaker 2: I don't think I asked him anything about them directly.

45:24 Speaker 2: I did ask General Xen about them, and he said

45:26 Speaker 2: that he and General Xen had worked on this project

45:31 Speaker 2: it right pat at right Field at the time and

45:35 Speaker 2: air Material under General Twining and who was the head

45:41 Speaker 2: of air Material at the at the time. And he

45:45 Speaker 2: told me about the debris and as I say, I

45:48 Speaker 2: think he alluded to the bodies may not have And

45:51 Speaker 2: he introduced me to General Xen, who I talked to

45:54 Speaker 2: on the phone a number of times, who told me

45:56 Speaker 2: a great deal about the whole thing, more than he knew,

45:59 Speaker 2: more than much more, and Mickey did because he had

46:00 Speaker 2: been a higher level officer at the time. I think

46:03 Speaker 2: Mickey was a major and he was a colonel at

46:05 Speaker 2: the time. And General Xen said, and I'm quoting him,

46:11 Speaker 2: and he's been quoted in an unfortunate interview public interview

46:16 Speaker 2: that's in a book by Don Schmidt and Randalls and

46:24 Speaker 2: Schmidt that everyone from Truman on down, as he put it,

46:29 Speaker 2: knew that what we had found was not of this

46:31 Speaker 2: world within twenty four hours of our finding it. Now,

46:37 Speaker 2: let's go back to the story of the altered children.

46:43 Speaker 1: Yes, and by the way, just to quick aside, the

46:46 Speaker 1: guy's name is Alfred O'Donnell.

46:48 Speaker 3: That's the and he was an EG and G engineer. Okay,

46:51 Speaker 3: this is the guy who told me gg wrot Trump.

46:53 Speaker 3: So can you copy and paste his name into a

46:57 Speaker 3: new tab so we can get some more background on

46:58 Speaker 3: that guy?

46:59 Speaker 1: Sorry, go ahead, Okay, So.

47:02 Speaker 2: This is where that I think that story comes from immediately.

47:09 Speaker 2: Here is the situation, the world situation as it stood

47:12 Speaker 2: at that time. Stalin has four and a half million

47:16 Speaker 2: soldiers fully equipped, largely with top notch American equipment, on

47:23 Speaker 2: the what is now being called beginning to be.

47:26 Speaker 1: Called the Iron Curtain Line.

47:29 Speaker 2: NATO, or rather, the Allies are telling Churchill and I

47:36 Speaker 2: guess to Gaul and Truman that this army can move

47:45 Speaker 2: across western Europe in six weeks and in all probability

47:50 Speaker 2: will be able to successfully invade England because the West

47:53 Speaker 2: has demobilized and they have not. So what is preventing them?

48:00 Speaker 2: Why don't they do it? There's one thing on the

48:03 Speaker 2: planet that's preventing them. It is the five hundred and

48:06 Speaker 2: ninth bomb wing at Roswell, which is believed to be

48:11 Speaker 2: equipped with nuclear weapons, right and can deliver them to Russia.

48:17 Speaker 2: And Stalin knows that his radars and his anti aircraft

48:20 Speaker 2: systems are not sufficiently robust to guarantee that all of

48:25 Speaker 2: the planes will be destroyed. So the biggest secret on

48:30 Speaker 2: the planet upon which the hinge of door of history

48:35 Speaker 2: is hinged is that bomb wing right there at Roswell. Right,

48:41 Speaker 2: do they really have the bombs or not? Is it?

48:46 Speaker 2: What is the situation now? I was told by somebody

48:51 Speaker 2: who was who's it was at the base, and he

48:55 Speaker 2: was an older man, and I I am I don't

48:59 Speaker 2: remember his name. I'm not in the business of not

49:02 Speaker 2: saying names, by the way, I try to say all

49:04 Speaker 2: the names I can remember. But this is a guy

49:07 Speaker 2: who he told me that they did not have all

49:14 Speaker 2: of the planes were only a couple of the planes

49:17 Speaker 2: had were actually operational at that time. And the result

49:23 Speaker 2: of this was the immediate thought when they found the

49:28 Speaker 2: debris and wreckage thirty miles north of Roswell an apparent balloon.

49:35 Speaker 2: The fear was that he had sensitive equipment on there

49:40 Speaker 2: that could have detected the level of radiation coming from

49:44 Speaker 2: the base if he'd gotten near enough, and determined from

49:49 Speaker 2: that whether or not there were really bombs on the base.

49:53 Speaker 2: And this caused a tremendous upset. That's why, when the

49:59 Speaker 2: disc story was being disseminated by Walter Howt, it was

50:05 Speaker 2: suddenly killed by the Pentagon because they weren't afraid of aliens.

50:10 Speaker 2: They'd never even heard understand in those days, that idea

50:13 Speaker 2: was not something people thought about people from another planet

50:19 Speaker 2: we aren't even I mean, maybe they'd think from Mars

50:22 Speaker 2: or something. They had no information, nothing like what we

50:26 Speaker 2: have now about outer space. So their immediate thought was

50:32 Speaker 2: these were people, these were Russians, and because they were small,

50:36 Speaker 2: the assumption was they were children. And then the cover

50:40 Speaker 2: story was the story that they were altered children.

50:45 Speaker 1: Yeah, but that was never the story about them being

50:48 Speaker 1: altered children was never released into the public officials, no.

50:50 Speaker 2: No, but it went all over the Air Force, went

50:54 Speaker 2: all over the Air Force. Because my uncle mentioned it.

50:58 Speaker 2: He said that that was the story that was told

51:02 Speaker 2: in the Air Force, that that was what was told. Okay,

51:06 Speaker 2: and because he was definite, no, art was definite about

51:10 Speaker 2: the bodies. He said they were not human at all.

51:15 Speaker 2: And in fact, well I know they weren't human. I'm

51:19 Speaker 2: quite certain of it. And you know for a fact

51:26 Speaker 2: pretty much. Okay, Well, you know it'll all come out.

51:34 Speaker 2: It's it's not your thing, I know. So, but how

51:37 Speaker 2: do you know? This has to do with time? And

51:41 Speaker 2: it is like an an onion being peeled, you know,

51:45 Speaker 2: you peel one layer and another layer and another layer,

51:48 Speaker 2: and the deeper you get, the closer you get to

51:51 Speaker 2: the heart of the matter. And the worse, it smells.

51:53 Speaker 2: So it's that's where we are.

51:57 Speaker 1: Do you think that the government has played out out

52:00 Speaker 1: some sort of simulated like war games but for society

52:04 Speaker 1: on what happens if this sort of stuff comes out?

52:07 Speaker 2: And I don't think the government has much to do

52:10 Speaker 2: with the decision making process here. I think the decision

52:13 Speaker 2: making processes elsewhere, and it's with these non human presences

52:21 Speaker 2: and not directly with us. I'm pretty sure that's the case.

52:26 Speaker 2: And I think they probably manipulate the defense departments quite

52:31 Speaker 2: extensively in order to be sure that exactly what they

52:35 Speaker 2: want done is done at the right time.

52:39 Speaker 1: Who manipulates the Defense department? These these creatures, the off

52:43 Speaker 1: world visitors, yeah, the visitors, yeah.

52:45 Speaker 2: And as to how they do it, there could be

52:50 Speaker 2: direct interface very easily. If it's not direct interface, then

52:55 Speaker 2: I have experienced fluent telepathy with them and with human

53:02 Speaker 2: beings who look human but also have these abilities, And

53:07 Speaker 2: therefore I think that that could be used to affect

53:13 Speaker 2: the minds of people, and especially people who are not

53:16 Speaker 2: familiar with that and do not have any experience of it.

53:20 Speaker 2: They may be easily deluded into thinking that it's their

53:24 Speaker 2: own thoughts. Now, another thing though, that has happened, is

53:30 Speaker 2: that is regarding the secrecy and the reason that the

53:34 Speaker 2: defense industry is so determined to excuse me. Another thing

53:44 Speaker 2: that's happened, and the reason the defense industry is so

53:46 Speaker 2: determined to keep this under wraps is the following and

53:51 Speaker 2: how Putoff has now talked about this publicly. So at

53:56 Speaker 2: the Sole Foundation conference, and it was in October of

54:01 Speaker 2: the last year of W's presidency. A committee, a group

54:07 Speaker 2: of committees actually were convened by the White House in

54:10 Speaker 2: Washington and told everyone was who was involved were people

54:15 Speaker 2: who had worked on this extensively and their companies, representatives

54:20 Speaker 2: of their companies go out and consult with each other

54:24 Speaker 2: in groups, in separate groups, and provide us with a

54:29 Speaker 2: report as to whether or not you think we should

54:31 Speaker 2: make this public. And everyone went into the thing thinking, wonderful,

54:36 Speaker 2: we're going to do this right now and maybe maybe

54:39 Speaker 2: win w Beck the presidency in November. But they all

54:46 Speaker 2: came back with the same recommendation, do not release this.

54:50 Speaker 2: And the reason is this, you have to understand how

54:54 Speaker 2: patents work. You can't find something in the ground like

55:00 Speaker 2: a stone or a mineral that's an unknown mineral and patented.

55:07 Speaker 2: You have to create a process, a process that is patentable.

55:13 Speaker 2: A natural object is not patentable. So all of this debris,

55:20 Speaker 2: all of these objects that are are in a gray area.

55:26 Speaker 2: And what's the most complex part of it is not

55:30 Speaker 2: all companies that have an interest in the development of

55:39 Speaker 2: processes and other materials based on what's been found have

55:43 Speaker 2: had access to it because the access was given to

55:48 Speaker 2: the companies that already had the correct track in terms

55:56 Speaker 2: of security clearances into the company because they the Defense

56:01 Speaker 2: Department made a decision a long time ago. I think

56:04 Speaker 2: that they would not be giving they would not be

56:07 Speaker 2: going to a company and saying you need to get

56:09 Speaker 2: this in this in this type of classification or security

56:13 Speaker 2: clearance in order for us to do this, because they

56:16 Speaker 2: were afraid that that would would open the door would leak.

56:20 Speaker 2: And the result is some companies have profited immensely from

56:25 Speaker 2: these processes and have patented things that are not actually patentable.

56:31 Speaker 2: The found material specifically is not patentable, okay, not legally

56:37 Speaker 2: patent not legally patentable. And they know this, and they

56:43 Speaker 2: also know that there would be a not only is

56:47 Speaker 2: there possible criminal activity involved, but all of the companies

56:53 Speaker 2: that have been left out of the picture have a

56:57 Speaker 2: massive grievance and and us to sue the other companies.

57:03 Speaker 2: And this is why this committee, these committees recommended that

57:07 Speaker 2: this not be disclosed. And why also who in the

57:12 Speaker 2: Schumer Amendment was gutted by the House that was led

57:20 Speaker 2: by congressmen who Ohio, Yeah, who are dependent on the

57:26 Speaker 2: defense industry for contributions.

57:28 Speaker 1: What were the what were the specific companies that were

57:32 Speaker 1: basically lobbying or you know, funding them?

57:35 Speaker 2: Well, I don't I wasn't told directly, but I can

57:37 Speaker 2: certainly guess that Boying and Lockheed Martin, OOY and Locked

57:40 Speaker 2: and a few others would be be highly.

57:44 Speaker 1: Concerned about this, right. And it's also convenient that these

57:48 Speaker 1: companies would have all this information because they can't be

57:50 Speaker 1: foid right. Private companies can't be foyd.

57:53 Speaker 2: Exactly, and that's why the information was In my opinion,

57:57 Speaker 2: a lot of the paperwork was taken to Woodstock, New

58:04 Speaker 2: York and placed in the Iron Mountain facility in spaces

58:11 Speaker 2: that are owned by E. G and G Roetrom.

58:13 Speaker 1: Do you think people in the Pentagon or deep in

58:16 Speaker 1: the government somewhere have simulated what would happen if this

58:19 Speaker 1: stuff did get out to the public, I would assume so.

58:23 Speaker 1: But I think their conclusion would be, well, their conclusion

58:28 Speaker 1: or what do you think that? I don't think their

58:29 Speaker 1: dam would be.

58:30 Speaker 2: I think that I think the that that's a really

58:34 Speaker 2: complex question. And on the on one level, their conclusion

58:40 Speaker 2: would be, we've got to protect our industry and therefore

58:43 Speaker 2: we can't allow this to get out because it's going

58:45 Speaker 2: to cause economic turmoil for all of our suppliers. That

58:50 Speaker 2: would be one level of it, another level of it.

58:53 Speaker 2: And this gets to whether or not there is an

58:55 Speaker 2: interface of some kind with these entities, and that is

59:00 Speaker 2: cultural colonization. When the Europeans moved out into the Americas

59:10 Speaker 2: and the Far East, they did so with superior technology.

59:15 Speaker 2: And this is a terribly critical point, so I'm gonna

59:19 Speaker 2: hit it hard. Moved out with superior technologies and devastated

59:26 Speaker 2: these other cultures because the other cultures saw the ships,

59:31 Speaker 2: the cannons, the guns, the armor, the wonderful knives and

59:36 Speaker 2: metal pots and things, and they wanted that too, and

59:40 Speaker 2: their own cultural significance greatly diminished. And that if you

59:45 Speaker 2: go to India you see that kind of culture. Shock

59:47 Speaker 2: is still there everywhere. It's still part of Indian, the

59:52 Speaker 2: Indian soul. It was a real bruising they took by

59:56 Speaker 2: cultural colonization and got in even worse bruising in the Americas,

1:00:01 Speaker 2: where ninety percent of the people in Mexico were dead

1:00:07 Speaker 2: within ten years of the arrival of the Spaniards. I mean,

1:00:11 Speaker 2: that's cultural colonization out the wazoo right now. Someone who

1:00:17 Speaker 2: is aware of that and wishes to leave the society

1:00:21 Speaker 2: intact would be very careful about exposing the society to

1:00:30 Speaker 2: what would in fact be I'm sure an extraordinarily dramatic

1:00:36 Speaker 2: amount of new processes and capabilities and materials that would

1:00:44 Speaker 2: seem to us almost to be magic.

1:00:47 Speaker 1: The Yeah, it would almost kick the legs out from

1:00:50 Speaker 1: under society, right.

1:00:52 Speaker 2: And there's possibly another reason, and it's very interesting. In

1:00:57 Speaker 2: April of nineteen seventy seven, DBH. Kuyper and Mark Morris

1:01:06 Speaker 2: to astrophysicists. One of them is an astronomer and the

1:01:11 Speaker 2: other an astrophysicists. The astronomer Kuiper discovered the Kuiper Belt.

1:01:15 Speaker 2: There were very prestigious guys published an article in the

1:01:18 Speaker 2: magazine's Science which was about what if aliens came here,

1:01:25 Speaker 2: Why would they why they would remain hidden? And you understand,

1:01:31 Speaker 2: these are guys who might have known they were here.

1:01:33 Speaker 2: They could easily have known that. And their conclusion was

1:01:39 Speaker 2: that the only thing they would be interested in here

1:01:43 Speaker 2: would be what we had and had discovered that they had,

1:01:47 Speaker 2: not what was new to them. And as soon as

1:01:51 Speaker 2: they revealed themselves, the whole culture would re form itself

1:01:57 Speaker 2: and refocus itself toward them, and all of the potential

1:02:01 Speaker 2: innovation that they might be looking for would be disappeared.

1:02:04 Speaker 2: Would poison the well, if you may poison the well,

1:02:07 Speaker 2: And I think that is a major issue with the.

1:02:10 Speaker 3: Visitors, it seems I mean, yeah, no, that makes that

1:02:13 Speaker 3: makes perfect sense.

1:02:15 Speaker 2: Well, it gets darker though, that's not I mean, this

1:02:17 Speaker 2: is the good part. There's all there's all kinds of

1:02:19 Speaker 2: stuff as well as this. That all kinds of other

1:02:21 Speaker 2: reasons for the secrecy, But I think the secrecy and

1:02:25 Speaker 2: I think it's important to always understand this when when

1:02:28 Speaker 2: we are going after the Defense Department, it's the little

1:02:32 Speaker 2: dog biting the boot that's kicking it. It ain't the

1:02:37 Speaker 2: man in the in the the dog never sees the man.

1:02:40 Speaker 2: He's only worried about the boot. You got to look

1:02:43 Speaker 2: up and there you see who's really behind it, and

1:02:46 Speaker 2: that's not us, that's them.

1:02:49 Speaker 1: So you think somehow this advanced species or whatever you

1:02:57 Speaker 1: want to call it, is controlling and manipulating our society

1:03:00 Speaker 1: in a way that benefits that it benefits.

1:03:02 Speaker 2: Us too, I would assume. So I would assume that

1:03:06 Speaker 2: it must be our things would not be like they are. Well,

1:03:10 Speaker 2: look at the Roswell incident. There's what's going on here

1:03:14 Speaker 2: has two sides to it. One is controlling and manipulating

1:03:19 Speaker 2: the society and the and its governments in such a

1:03:24 Speaker 2: way that they will not reveal to the public the

1:03:28 Speaker 2: bits and pieces that fall into their hands. And two

1:03:32 Speaker 2: making sure that enough falls into their hands and into

1:03:37 Speaker 2: the public's hands. That we're all getting used to this,

1:03:42 Speaker 2: and that we are building toward something closer to parity.

1:03:50 Speaker 2: That we were nowhere near parity in nineteen forty seven.

1:03:54 Speaker 2: We're much closer now, and as we'd become more sophistic

1:03:58 Speaker 2: And you say, parody, what do you mean to do?

1:03:59 Speaker 2: I mean a logical parity with them, with them, because

1:04:02 Speaker 2: remember I said a few minutes ago that this is

1:04:04 Speaker 2: terribly important, and I brought up the story of the Europeans,

1:04:09 Speaker 2: especially the Spaniards. Right, the fact that they are technologically

1:04:13 Speaker 2: more proficient than we are does not mean that they're

1:04:16 Speaker 2: ethically and morally more proficient than we.

1:04:19 Speaker 1: Are, right, exactly.

1:04:20 Speaker 2: That's really important to remember because I remember, I know

1:04:23 Speaker 2: these people, well, a lot of them quite well. Not

1:04:26 Speaker 2: not on a sit down across the table. Well, what

1:04:29 Speaker 2: do you mean people, the visitors, I've had a lot.

1:04:32 Speaker 2: I'm they're in my life, and I'm I communicate with

1:04:36 Speaker 2: them a.

1:04:36 Speaker 1: Lot, and they are not. Can you do this whenever

1:04:39 Speaker 1: you want?

1:04:40 Speaker 2: No, they do it. It's when they want. I usually

1:04:43 Speaker 2: happens between three and four in the morning, and it

1:04:46 Speaker 2: involves working on my books. The best, the most extensive communication,

1:04:56 Speaker 2: more direct communication I've had with them in recent years,

1:04:59 Speaker 2: was when I was writing a book called A New World,

1:05:03 Speaker 2: and I wrote it that the country house, which was

1:05:06 Speaker 2: now then owned by my aunt, who was recently deceased

1:05:10 Speaker 2: and whom I loved dearly. She was she was really

1:05:14 Speaker 2: a wonderful woman. And she also the other was the

1:05:19 Speaker 2: other member of the family who had had a close

1:05:22 Speaker 2: encounter when she didn't talk. Oh yeah, she didn't talk

1:05:25 Speaker 2: about it much, but we discussed it pretty extensively, of course,

1:05:30 Speaker 2: and I don't I have to find out from her

1:05:32 Speaker 2: daughters whether or not she what she mentioned to them,

1:05:35 Speaker 2: because I would like to tell them what she told me.

1:05:37 Speaker 2: If they don't know and we never have talked about it,

1:05:40 Speaker 2: that's down the road in my life. In any case.

1:05:45 Speaker 2: We're at the country house. I'm downstairs and I've been going.

1:05:49 Speaker 2: She's just come up. I've been going. I've been there

1:05:53 Speaker 2: for about four days, and I've been sitting in the

1:05:56 Speaker 2: living room with all the lights out, and the visitors,

1:06:00 Speaker 2: presumably the little gray people have been coming onto the

1:06:02 Speaker 2: porch right beside me, just a couple feet away, and

1:06:07 Speaker 2: so very close like that. The telepathic communication is very clear,

1:06:14 Speaker 2: and we are working literally, working together on the book directly. Now,

1:06:19 Speaker 2: what happens my aunt comes and she is upstairs in

1:06:24 Speaker 2: the bedroom, and there's another porch, the sleeping porch outside

1:06:29 Speaker 2: her room, and this is all Florida ceiling windows. It's

1:06:32 Speaker 2: an old house. And suddenly I hear her say, what

1:06:35 Speaker 2: is that you? And I say, what do you mean?

1:06:40 Speaker 2: She says, well, someone just talked to me on the

1:06:43 Speaker 2: porch and I said, no, I'm down here, and she

1:06:47 Speaker 2: said well, someone, and I went upstairs and said, what's

1:06:50 Speaker 2: going on? And she said, well, I think it's your friends,

1:06:54 Speaker 2: because it had they had that shuffling walk they sort

1:06:57 Speaker 2: of scraping along walk on. She could hear that on

1:07:02 Speaker 2: the porch, and it said to me, why aren't you asleep?

1:07:07 Speaker 2: And I thought to myself, this is not good, because

1:07:13 Speaker 2: people are They will say, I say, how do you feel?

1:07:17 Speaker 1: He said, you all right?

1:07:19 Speaker 2: I said. She said, sure, I'm all right. But I

1:07:22 Speaker 2: guess they're here. I said, yes, I guess they are.

1:07:25 Speaker 2: And it was interesting she wanted to see them. She

1:07:28 Speaker 2: would go up to the house with me, just the

1:07:31 Speaker 2: two of us alone, often in hopes of seeing them,

1:07:34 Speaker 2: even though her relationship with them was very hard. She'd

1:07:37 Speaker 2: had some hard things happened to her. And so I said, well,

1:07:41 Speaker 2: I guess they are here. I mean I knew they

1:07:43 Speaker 2: were there because I'd been with them and they were

1:07:45 Speaker 2: downstairs that that moment. But they had apparently I was

1:07:50 Speaker 2: going to go up to my room, which is the

1:07:52 Speaker 2: far room in the back, the farthest way darkest room

1:07:56 Speaker 2: in the house, and they were going to probably come

1:08:00 Speaker 2: up to that area, and when they realized she was awake,

1:08:03 Speaker 2: they thought they couldn't come up. They're very shy, and

1:08:07 Speaker 2: I have a number of theories about that, but I

1:08:09 Speaker 2: don't really know why. In any case, I thought to myself,

1:08:13 Speaker 2: I had better be careful here because I think this

1:08:16 Speaker 2: is extremely stressful for my aunt. The next afternoon, she

1:08:23 Speaker 2: became ill and she said, I feel very nauseous and

1:08:32 Speaker 2: light headed. And I put my fingers on her wrist

1:08:36 Speaker 2: and her heart was not beating correctly, and I thought

1:08:41 Speaker 2: to myself, it's stress and she's having a heart attack.

1:08:45 Speaker 2: And so I called our a lifelong friend who is

1:08:50 Speaker 2: also a doctor, not the one I talked about earlier,

1:08:54 Speaker 2: who happens to have his country houses half ten minutes

1:08:58 Speaker 2: away by car, and I said to him, you need

1:09:02 Speaker 2: to get over here. I think she's having a heart attack.

1:09:05 Speaker 2: And he came rushing over diagnosed her. He's a cardiologist,

1:09:09 Speaker 2: diagnosed her and got an ambulance to take her into town,

1:09:13 Speaker 2: got a pacemaker into her, and saved her life. Because

1:09:17 Speaker 2: I knew she would get stressed, and she always disagreed

1:09:21 Speaker 2: that the stress was because of what happened the night before,

1:09:23 Speaker 2: but I'm sorry that is not the case. It's tremendously

1:09:27 Speaker 2: stressful and I can tell you precisely why and also

1:09:30 Speaker 2: a reason for the secrecy they had. And this gets

1:09:33 Speaker 2: back to my mention of time a little while ago.

1:09:37 Speaker 2: They haven't got the same relationship to time as we do.

1:09:43 Speaker 2: If you can visualize it, we are inside the stream

1:09:47 Speaker 2: of time, and the stream of time is always coming

1:09:50 Speaker 2: toward us. Everything in your life and my life is

1:09:54 Speaker 2: always new. We never experienced time any other way now

1:10:00 Speaker 2: we Time is not and I hear people all the time,

1:10:03 Speaker 2: even physicists talking about time as if it was a

1:10:06 Speaker 2: sort of force or presence like gravity.

1:10:08 Speaker 1: It's not.

1:10:09 Speaker 2: Time is.

1:10:10 Speaker 1: It's a side.

1:10:11 Speaker 2: Effect of quantum entanglement. And there's just one paper I

1:10:15 Speaker 2: know of that's I think being prepared now that discusses this.

1:10:19 Speaker 2: But it is the case in any case, that's almost

1:10:23 Speaker 2: neither here nor there with what I'm about to say.

1:10:26 Speaker 2: What I want to say here is visualize them as

1:10:31 Speaker 2: like fishermen on the shores of the river of time,

1:10:35 Speaker 2: and us as trout swimming in the river, and all

1:10:39 Speaker 2: experience is coming in, and we're devouring the little bits

1:10:43 Speaker 2: of experience that we get, and they're making us stronger.

1:10:46 Speaker 2: If you take us out of the stream of time,

1:10:48 Speaker 2: it's devastating for two reasons. One is we can't function

1:10:54 Speaker 2: outside of the stream of time, and the second and

1:10:58 Speaker 2: most important one is we see the stream of time

1:11:01 Speaker 2: from the outside. And if you do this, believe me

1:11:08 Speaker 2: you it's horribly hard because for a while after that,

1:11:13 Speaker 2: your life is all known to you and you are

1:11:19 Speaker 2: like running on rails. It's like automatic. It's horrible, and

1:11:24 Speaker 2: you can't get the energy of the experience that you

1:11:29 Speaker 2: have paid dearly to get by being locked up in

1:11:33 Speaker 2: a physical body. They are not locked in their bodies.

1:11:37 Speaker 2: They can come and go and leave and enter their bodies.

1:11:40 Speaker 2: That's why they have left bodies here in the first place,

1:11:44 Speaker 2: because they can leave the bodies behind. And they left

1:11:47 Speaker 2: when they left that craft at Broswell with bodies in it,

1:11:50 Speaker 2: they weren't in the bodies they'd left. They'd left except

1:11:53 Speaker 2: for one that remained. Apparently, I say apparently. I've never

1:11:57 Speaker 2: had any direct proof of this, but I've that's what

1:12:01 Speaker 2: General Exen implied that, and General Twining's son said that

1:12:07 Speaker 2: General Twining had spoken to this individual who had told

1:12:11 Speaker 2: the first lie of many when he said they asked

1:12:15 Speaker 2: General Axon asked if they were or I mean general,

1:12:19 Speaker 2: Twining got an answer to a question, and the answer was,

1:12:22 Speaker 2: we're not interested in human beings. Of course, that's absolutely false.

1:12:27 Speaker 2: So almost the first thing they was ever said to

1:12:30 Speaker 2: anybody was a lie, and that shouldn't surprise us, because

1:12:32 Speaker 2: they're going to.

1:12:33 Speaker 1: Be a lot more of those. Can you expand a

1:12:36 Speaker 1: little bit more on what you mean about looking at

1:12:40 Speaker 1: time from the outside, being outside the time.

1:12:42 Speaker 2: Stream, Yes, I can. Let me give you an excuse me,

1:12:47 Speaker 2: let me give you an example of how that experience

1:12:51 Speaker 2: works for somebody. Jeff Kreipel, who is my dear friend

1:12:55 Speaker 2: and my co author of Supernatural and hasment on your

1:12:57 Speaker 2: show and so forth, had an experience with me at

1:13:03 Speaker 2: the Essenon Institute. When I'm up there, there's a house

1:13:07 Speaker 2: called the Murphy House where there's a certain room that

1:13:11 Speaker 2: looks right out over the Pacific, and it's an ideal room.

1:13:15 Speaker 2: It makes it very easy for them to come in

1:13:18 Speaker 2: and when they're active in my life, in the physical

1:13:21 Speaker 2: life and coming, if I go and stay in that room,

1:13:24 Speaker 2: they will often show up there. And so Jeff wanted

1:13:27 Speaker 2: to stay in the room when that would hope that

1:13:30 Speaker 2: would happen to him, and it did. What Oh, yes, and.

1:13:35 Speaker 1: After reading your book, I don't know who in the

1:13:37 Speaker 1: right mind would want to have that experience. I was

1:13:40 Speaker 1: terrified reading your book.

1:13:41 Speaker 3: I was literally petrified in my bed at night when

1:13:43 Speaker 3: I was reading your book, like I'm shaking him.

1:13:45 Speaker 1: Yeah, I knows your hands shaking. Now, it's not an

1:13:48 Speaker 1: experience I would wish upon my worst enemy.

1:13:50 Speaker 2: Well, let's put it this way. Human beings are here

1:13:54 Speaker 2: because we are more curious than afraid, and I am

1:13:57 Speaker 2: in that boat. Ultimately, after the experience, I became more curious,

1:14:02 Speaker 2: and I started going out in the woods in the

1:14:04 Speaker 2: middle of the night to indicate to the visitors that

1:14:07 Speaker 2: I was ready for more in sight of the fact

1:14:12 Speaker 2: that this was clearly the act, an insane act. But

1:14:16 Speaker 2: going over the next hill, which is how we conquered

1:14:19 Speaker 2: that we came to the whole planet, was always an.

1:14:21 Speaker 1: Act like that. We've been doing that.

1:14:23 Speaker 2: That's how we have grown and lived and fooling around

1:14:28 Speaker 2: with the atom. Of course we did it, and now

1:14:30 Speaker 2: we can completely destroy ourselves asselves at a moment's notice.

1:14:34 Speaker 2: Curiosity is the primary driving force. It's more powerful than fear.

1:14:41 Speaker 2: And I can assure you you think if you've found

1:14:44 Speaker 2: the chance to have a face to face with the visitors,

1:14:49 Speaker 2: you would say yes, Danny.

1:14:50 Speaker 1: No, I wouldn't.

1:14:51 Speaker 2: Yeah, you will, I would not in the moment you

1:14:53 Speaker 2: would say yes, no, Okay, if.

1:14:55 Speaker 1: They're listening right now, the answer is no, I would not.

1:14:58 Speaker 1: I promise you, well.

1:14:59 Speaker 2: You got to watch out, because sometimes they are listening.

1:15:02 Speaker 2: You're not. Wouldn't be the only podcaster who's ever had

1:15:04 Speaker 2: an experience with them after having a conversation like this.

1:15:07 Speaker 1: So it has it ever happened where people that you're

1:15:09 Speaker 1: around end up having similar experiences.

1:15:12 Speaker 2: With that guests all the time. Absolutely tell me that.

1:15:16 Speaker 1: Yeah.

1:15:17 Speaker 2: Absolutely. Anyway, let's go back to Jeff, because it's a

1:15:21 Speaker 2: wonderful story and he's told it publicly. It's not a secret. Okay.

1:15:25 Speaker 2: I try. I try and never. If I can't remember

1:15:27 Speaker 2: a name, that's one thing. But I try never to

1:15:29 Speaker 2: come in a podcast like this and say, well, I

1:15:31 Speaker 2: had on the authority of or with you know, I

1:15:34 Speaker 2: can't say his name.

1:15:35 Speaker 1: I don't like that. No, I don't either. I'm not.

1:15:37 Speaker 2: I'm I'm in the business of telling a story. I'm

1:15:41 Speaker 2: a storyteller, not a story hider. So anyway, Jeff stays

1:15:46 Speaker 2: in the room that night, and one of the visitors

1:15:50 Speaker 2: does show up, and very clever hits me, I'm here's

1:15:57 Speaker 2: the situation. The room. The end of the room is here.

1:16:03 Speaker 2: There's a little porch that you can step off and

1:16:05 Speaker 2: walk down to a cliff, and the Pacific is roaring

1:16:09 Speaker 2: away on that cliff right there. Okay, seventy foot drop

1:16:14 Speaker 2: and the I'm in the bed right beside that window.

1:16:21 Speaker 2: Jeff is across the room, in a bed across the room.

1:16:25 Speaker 1: Hey, guys in the same room together, in the same Yeah.

1:16:28 Speaker 2: So they show up. One of them shows up, and

1:16:30 Speaker 2: it's it's not a gray, it's one of these dark

1:16:33 Speaker 2: blue figures that actually I have more contact with physically

1:16:36 Speaker 2: than the grays.

1:16:37 Speaker 1: The shorter beafier ones yeah, yeah, and he.

1:16:43 Speaker 2: Wakes me up by tapping me on this shoulder, causing

1:16:46 Speaker 2: me to look look this way, and then I look

1:16:50 Speaker 2: back and I see him, and then he disappears, and

1:16:54 Speaker 2: it's an indication in my mind that I'm supposed to

1:16:58 Speaker 2: get up and do the meditation I do with them

1:17:01 Speaker 2: at three o'clock every morning, or.

1:17:03 Speaker 1: Approximately three every morning.

1:17:05 Speaker 2: Every morning, it's supposed to be an hour and a

1:17:06 Speaker 2: half before dawn, so it varies a lot. And you

1:17:09 Speaker 2: can't use like an alarm system because that alarm clock

1:17:12 Speaker 2: because they basically will wake me up at the right moment.

1:17:16 Speaker 2: It's a time called in certain yoga practices brahmam a

1:17:22 Speaker 2: hearth of time. It is an hour and thirty minutes

1:17:26 Speaker 2: before dawn hour and thirty nine minutes before dawn, and

1:17:30 Speaker 2: it is the time when the mind is most open,

1:17:34 Speaker 2: and that's when I work with them on my books.

1:17:38 Speaker 1: Interesting, so it's also the time when you're having you're

1:17:41 Speaker 1: in rem sleep, you.

1:17:43 Speaker 2: Would be, but if you're sitting in a room doing

1:17:46 Speaker 2: a meditation to open your mind to this outer these

1:17:50 Speaker 2: this material coming from the outside, you're not in rem sleep.

1:17:53 Speaker 3: But if you were sleeping, typically that would be the

1:17:55 Speaker 3: part of the night when your brain is the most active.

1:17:57 Speaker 1: And you say that remsleep. I don't know if they've

1:17:59 Speaker 1: proven it, but it is connected to the pineal gland.

1:18:02 Speaker 2: Well, you have to have some control over the functioning

1:18:05 Speaker 2: of the pineal gland in order to do this and

1:18:07 Speaker 2: remain sane and healthy in any case. Getting back to Jeff,

1:18:14 Speaker 2: the visitor disappears short time after that, Jeff is awakened,

1:18:23 Speaker 2: and his description of how it felt is what I

1:18:28 Speaker 2: was getting at he said, It felt like I heard

1:18:34 Speaker 2: glass crashing down breaking all around me. That was his veltshown,

1:18:41 Speaker 2: his worldview. It was his worldview. His whole vision of

1:18:46 Speaker 2: reality was collapsing, and it was like glass to him.

1:18:53 Speaker 2: His mind interpreted it like glass breaking. And then he

1:18:56 Speaker 2: heard a voice from inside himself, as he was drawn

1:19:00 Speaker 2: on to the edge of the time stream, cry out

1:19:03 Speaker 2: his own voice, but from deep inside his body.

1:19:06 Speaker 1: Oh my god. And if you're taken out of the.

1:19:12 Speaker 2: Time stream, your reason for living is over. And you

1:19:17 Speaker 2: have to get used to that possibility. And you have

1:19:20 Speaker 2: to get used to the idea that if you're taken

1:19:24 Speaker 2: out of the time stream, it'll only be for a

1:19:26 Speaker 2: while and your relationship to time will return. But until

1:19:33 Speaker 2: you do, you're gonna be scared to death. And that's

1:19:37 Speaker 2: a natural fear. It's the fear of a fish being

1:19:41 Speaker 2: pulled out of the water.

1:19:42 Speaker 1: Is it like dying? When you compare it to dying,

1:19:44 Speaker 1: it's worse than death.

1:19:46 Speaker 2: Oh, it's worse than death, because death death is when

1:19:49 Speaker 2: you leave you were locked into these bodies. There's a

1:19:54 Speaker 2: place just above the c one vertebra which we can't unlock,

1:20:00 Speaker 2: but they can the grays can because they haven't a

1:20:04 Speaker 2: way of doing it. And when they do that, you

1:20:07 Speaker 2: feel you literally feel like something things opening all down

1:20:13 Speaker 2: your spine. Your spine is opening and you can roll

1:20:17 Speaker 2: right out of your body. Now, in my case, I

1:20:21 Speaker 2: would love to be left on my own. But when

1:20:24 Speaker 2: I do that, but they always have a job for me,

1:20:27 Speaker 2: a specific thing, and I don't think that they would

1:20:32 Speaker 2: care for me to be allowed out on my own

1:20:35 Speaker 2: to cut up in that state as I might do.

1:20:39 Speaker 2: Because I've learned to do things. I can make myself

1:20:42 Speaker 2: visible in that state, which I have done a couple times,

1:20:46 Speaker 2: because there's there's a movement in the When you're in

1:20:50 Speaker 2: that state, you still have what feels like a nervous system,

1:20:53 Speaker 2: and you can you can address your attention to it

1:20:56 Speaker 2: in a certain way that can make you visible. And

1:20:59 Speaker 2: I think they trust me enough to let me fun

1:21:02 Speaker 2: with that, and I would have a lot of fun

1:21:04 Speaker 2: with it. It's quite true.

1:21:07 Speaker 1: So how is it worse than death?

1:21:10 Speaker 2: Because the soul is here gathering the energy of life,

1:21:16 Speaker 2: and this is like being in the stream of Once

1:21:20 Speaker 2: you're out of the stream and you see the next

1:21:23 Speaker 2: four days, say for those four days, your soul can't

1:21:27 Speaker 2: gather any energy because it already knows what's going to happen.

1:21:32 Speaker 2: It is the energy of the new that we are

1:21:35 Speaker 2: here to receive, to get. That's why we're in these bodies.

1:21:39 Speaker 2: That's the fundamental reason we're in these bodies. Dying is

1:21:43 Speaker 2: a natural part of this. It comes to an end

1:21:45 Speaker 2: at a certain point, right, and that's what makes us tick.

1:21:48 Speaker 2: A lot of people believe, right, and we are here

1:21:52 Speaker 2: to be born, to live, and to die. This is

1:21:56 Speaker 2: not dying. This is being in a living, breathing body

1:22:01 Speaker 2: with no reason to be in it. And it's horrible.

1:22:05 Speaker 2: The first time it happened to me, I just was

1:22:08 Speaker 2: almost went mad because I was I didn't know that

1:22:11 Speaker 2: it would end.

1:22:13 Speaker 1: It's almost like the death of the soul.

1:22:15 Speaker 2: It's not the death of the soul. The soul becomes.

1:22:19 Speaker 2: It's like being trapped. It's claustrophobic as hell. It's really

1:22:23 Speaker 2: claustrophobic because you're suddenly very aware of the fact that

1:22:28 Speaker 2: you are in this body and you can't get out.

1:22:30 Speaker 2: It's like being locked in a closet. It, believe me,

1:22:35 Speaker 2: it's hard, hard, and Jeff wasn't prepared, and people aren't

1:22:40 Speaker 2: prepared and that's why they don't want it. Every instinct

1:22:44 Speaker 2: in us says, we must not do this, we must

1:22:47 Speaker 2: not get out of the time stream. That's this is

1:22:50 Speaker 2: why we're here. We paid for this in some way.

1:22:53 Speaker 2: We're here. This is our precious treasure is being in

1:22:58 Speaker 2: this time stream and being pulled out of it. No, No,

1:23:04 Speaker 2: that's not supposed to happen. They are outside of it

1:23:08 Speaker 2: looking in. Why are they like that? This is a

1:23:12 Speaker 2: great question, because I am quite sure from my own

1:23:16 Speaker 2: experience this is experiential. It is not observational, though, and

1:23:22 Speaker 2: there's a difference in the quality of something like that,

1:23:26 Speaker 2: because I'm saying what I believe to be true, not

1:23:29 Speaker 2: what I have seen. Okay, what I believe to be

1:23:34 Speaker 2: true is that they would they can enter us, and

1:23:40 Speaker 2: when they're in us, they can share this constant, unending

1:23:45 Speaker 2: sense of the new that they don't have anymore. They

1:23:48 Speaker 2: lost it, or gave it up, or it was taken

1:23:51 Speaker 2: from them. My wife Anne, who knew she was a

1:23:58 Speaker 2: little gal from ann Arbor, Michigan, who grew up in

1:24:02 Speaker 2: a difficult situation, and there was just nothing mysterious about her.

1:24:09 Speaker 2: There was nothing mysterious in our life together until well,

1:24:13 Speaker 2: once we met, things got weird, but we didn't know why.

1:24:16 Speaker 2: And you know, we were a couple of kids basically

1:24:18 Speaker 2: interested in bed, not in weird stuff. I mean, we

1:24:21 Speaker 2: didn't care about that. We were interested in each other.

1:24:24 Speaker 2: So she knew once she knew. You know, when I

1:24:32 Speaker 2: went through a period after I published Communion of thinking

1:24:36 Speaker 2: I was going crazy and trying to drive her out

1:24:38 Speaker 2: of my life because I thought I'm psychotic and anything

1:24:43 Speaker 2: can happen if she's ends up, I end up in

1:24:46 Speaker 2: this state that I was in that night and can't

1:24:49 Speaker 2: get out of it. I'm going to be in a

1:24:51 Speaker 2: mental institution maybe for the rest of my life. And

1:24:53 Speaker 2: she's going to be saddled with me because she's not

1:24:55 Speaker 2: being able to divorce me. And so I was trying

1:25:01 Speaker 2: to get hurt to divorce me until finally consciously or

1:25:07 Speaker 2: consciously very consciously, and so we were fighting a lot,

1:25:10 Speaker 2: and I was kept telling her why don't you just leave,

1:25:12 Speaker 2: Why don't you you leave? Why don't you get a divorce?

1:25:16 Speaker 2: And it was killing me inside because I lumber so

1:25:18 Speaker 2: dearly and deeply, but I just thought it was you know,

1:25:22 Speaker 2: she had to have a life, and she wouldn't have

1:25:24 Speaker 2: a life with me very much longer. I was afraid

1:25:26 Speaker 2: of that. When I finally realized that it had happened,

1:25:31 Speaker 2: physically happened when the doctor said to me, you've been

1:25:35 Speaker 2: or he didn't say that, he said, you have a

1:25:38 Speaker 2: lesion in your rectum because I had been entered inrectly

1:25:43 Speaker 2: and by a machine that caused an erection, an expulsion

1:25:48 Speaker 2: of seeing.

1:25:49 Speaker 1: This is the by nineteen eighty six July or December

1:25:53 Speaker 1: December nineteen eighty five, December twenty sixth, nineteen eighty seven. Five. Right, yeah, yeah,

1:25:57 Speaker 1: I want you to also keep a pen there because

1:26:00 Speaker 1: I want you to tell that story.

1:26:01 Speaker 2: Okay, surely I will so, but she once you know.

1:26:06 Speaker 2: I finally I talked to my friend Timothy Greenfield Saunders,

1:26:10 Speaker 2: a photographer in New York. We've been we're dear friends.

1:26:13 Speaker 2: I love friends, and I love to have friends in

1:26:17 Speaker 2: my life, and so I keep my friends as long

1:26:21 Speaker 2: as I can, and Timothy and I have been friends,

1:26:23 Speaker 2: and she and our families have been friends for a

1:26:27 Speaker 2: long time, so we we were. I told Timothy before

1:26:34 Speaker 2: I told Anne. And the reason is that members of

1:26:40 Speaker 2: his wife's family had seen the visitors. They lived just

1:26:44 Speaker 2: ten minutes from our house and our cabine in upstate

1:26:47 Speaker 2: New York. And they'd seen the visitors in their back

1:26:49 Speaker 2: garden one morning while they were having breakfast, and so

1:26:53 Speaker 2: you know that.

1:26:54 Speaker 1: Was morning outside. That's yeahs our.

1:26:56 Speaker 2: Oh listen, it was because of me. They were shown

1:27:00 Speaker 2: because of me. I'm sure whether it was. It might

1:27:02 Speaker 2: have been about a year before. In any case, but

1:27:05 Speaker 2: the visitors, because they're outside of the stream of time,

1:27:08 Speaker 2: they can stitch things together differently than we can. And

1:27:12 Speaker 2: so I told him the story and I said, he said, well,

1:27:18 Speaker 2: I said, I don't know how to tell Anne. And

1:27:21 Speaker 2: he says, just tell her. She'll roll with it.

1:27:25 Speaker 1: And and I.

1:27:27 Speaker 2: Thought, well, I don't have any choice because I've got

1:27:30 Speaker 2: to tell her something and explain myself because I've been

1:27:33 Speaker 2: really bad to her. And so I told her, and

1:27:37 Speaker 2: she looks at me, and I looked back at her,

1:27:42 Speaker 2: and I was afraid she would say, well, now, maybe

1:27:46 Speaker 2: we should get a divorce, But instead she says, oh,

1:27:51 Speaker 2: thank god, now I don't have to get a divorce,

1:27:56 Speaker 2: ride or die. She was rolling with it, and she

1:28:00 Speaker 2: took it over. She took over everything. Anne was the

1:28:04 Speaker 2: one who said you should write a book about it.

1:28:08 Speaker 2: She was the one who gave the book the title.

1:28:10 Speaker 2: I was going to call it body Terror because it

1:28:12 Speaker 2: was so physically terrifying, and she said no. Whitly, one night,

1:28:17 Speaker 2: when she was half asleep, she suddenly says, Whitly, call

1:28:24 Speaker 2: the book communion, because that's what it's about, and that

1:28:29 Speaker 2: is the defining reality here can we do it? And

1:28:34 Speaker 2: another part of that reality comes from Colonel Philip Corso.

1:28:39 Speaker 2: Phil Corso who had an encounter in New Mexico where

1:28:46 Speaker 2: he was asked by the visitors to turn off some

1:28:50 Speaker 2: radars so they could safely leave a cave that they

1:28:53 Speaker 2: were in, and to turn them off for ten minutes.

1:28:57 Speaker 2: And he said, well, in my prof less in ten

1:29:00 Speaker 2: minutes can be a long time, which is quite an understatement.

1:29:04 Speaker 2: And what's in it for us? And the answer is

1:29:08 Speaker 2: the defining reality of this Along with the word communion,

1:29:13 Speaker 2: The answer was a new world. If you can take it.

1:29:18 Speaker 2: That means if you can rest it out of our hands,

1:29:23 Speaker 2: if you can bear it, if you can stand it,

1:29:27 Speaker 2: if you can understand it, if you can steal it,

1:29:32 Speaker 2: beg for it, buy it, borrow it. However, there's a

1:29:37 Speaker 2: new world waiting for us, and that world that circles

1:29:40 Speaker 2: back to communion because it is in that level of

1:29:45 Speaker 2: relationship that this new world is going to come. Because

1:29:48 Speaker 2: what will happen to us is that all kinds of

1:29:51 Speaker 2: abilities that we see the visitors in possession of that

1:29:54 Speaker 2: look like magic to us will become part of us

1:29:58 Speaker 2: as well. I'm right a book about this right now,

1:30:01 Speaker 2: and it's going to be out, hopefully by December, and

1:30:05 Speaker 2: it's going to lay it all out. It's called the

1:30:07 Speaker 2: Fourth Mind of exactly what we need to do and

1:30:11 Speaker 2: where we are with this because it's time and it

1:30:15 Speaker 2: gets back to the original statement here that this is

1:30:18 Speaker 2: about time, and it is about time too.

1:30:23 Speaker 1: Okay, going back to when this December twenty sixth of

1:30:29 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty five, yep, experience, this was the first experience

1:30:34 Speaker 1: I believe that you talk about in communion. Yes, right,

1:30:37 Speaker 1: well yeah, okay sort of the first. So is this

1:30:42 Speaker 1: experience what sort of kicked off your inspiration to come

1:30:47 Speaker 1: up with this book or was did you decide to

1:30:49 Speaker 1: write about the book? Like? How many years after that

1:30:51 Speaker 1: experience did you try to write the book? Oh?

1:30:54 Speaker 2: And brought it up the night I told her the story?

1:30:59 Speaker 1: Oh really? Oh yeah?

1:31:00 Speaker 2: She was ready right then?

1:31:02 Speaker 1: It was time. Okay. So first of all, before we

1:31:09 Speaker 1: go into that story, why do you think they chose you?

1:31:14 Speaker 2: I think I've probably been in this all my life.

1:31:17 Speaker 2: I am a good writer, I can tell a good story.

1:31:21 Speaker 2: I am a willing to do it. My curiosity is

1:31:27 Speaker 2: stronger than my fear. And there's another thing that's very important.

1:31:35 Speaker 2: They obviously they could have chosen excuse me, they could

1:31:38 Speaker 2: have chosen someone like a prominent scientist, who would they

1:31:44 Speaker 2: would find they could find one who would do it.

1:31:45 Speaker 2: I'm sure smart people, smart people. I'm smart enough to

1:31:50 Speaker 2: do it. I mean obviously I couldn't do it. But

1:31:55 Speaker 2: they chose a horror novelist. And the reason is this.

1:31:59 Speaker 2: It gets back to cultural colonization. You don't have to

1:32:04 Speaker 2: believe me. You can say no, he's making it up.

1:32:09 Speaker 2: It's another horror novel. He's just doing it for the cash.

1:32:14 Speaker 2: That you can defend yourself. If you feel uncomfortable with

1:32:20 Speaker 2: this and don't want to go down this road, you

1:32:22 Speaker 2: can turn away from it with no questions asked and

1:32:26 Speaker 2: nothing lost. And that's why they chose someone whose situation

1:32:30 Speaker 2: would be so ambiguous as mine. I write horror novels

1:32:35 Speaker 2: and then I come out with this bizarre and terrifying

1:32:40 Speaker 2: story and say no, no, no, this isn't a horror novel.

1:32:43 Speaker 2: This really happened to me. And so that level of

1:32:48 Speaker 2: ambiguity remains intact to the stay, and I would never

1:32:52 Speaker 2: disturb it.

1:32:54 Speaker 1: Do you think it had anything to do with the

1:32:56 Speaker 1: stuff that you recollected when you were a child being

1:32:58 Speaker 1: on the Air Force base?

1:33:01 Speaker 2: You know? I think interestingly enough yes, And I'll tell

1:33:04 Speaker 2: you why. There was a book written by Ken Ring

1:33:10 Speaker 2: called the Omega Project, and Anne and I financed this project.

1:33:16 Speaker 2: And what it was is he went to a numerous

1:33:20 Speaker 2: group of about one hundred I think close encounter witnesses

1:33:23 Speaker 2: or maybe less. It was a small study, and gave

1:33:26 Speaker 2: them each a list of questions, and this has been

1:33:28 Speaker 2: repeated on a larger scale in the close encounter community. Subsequently,

1:33:33 Speaker 2: of their asked him about their childhood, and they, most

1:33:38 Speaker 2: all of them remembered something traumatic in their childhood, something

1:33:42 Speaker 2: that cracked the cosmic egg. Their expectations were destroyed. And

1:33:48 Speaker 2: when I was at Randolph, my expectations of life and

1:33:52 Speaker 2: of what it was and if what I could expect

1:33:55 Speaker 2: from it were shattered completely, so much so that I

1:34:00 Speaker 2: still have complete amnesia about it almost. That's why I

1:34:03 Speaker 2: always say I can only remember this loud noise. And

1:34:07 Speaker 2: because you know at this point I was hypnotized twice

1:34:09 Speaker 2: in my life by Donald three times.

1:34:10 Speaker 1: In my life by Donald Clein three times.

1:34:13 Speaker 2: The third time did not work. Bud Hopkins tried to

1:34:16 Speaker 2: hypnotize me. The Bud Hopkins he wrote a book called Intruders.

1:34:22 Speaker 2: He was an artist who was very interested in close

1:34:25 Speaker 2: encounters and abductions because he'd had one a close encounter

1:34:28 Speaker 2: anyway himself. And excuse me, anyway, it did not work

1:34:37 Speaker 2: because I did not I did not want to be

1:34:39 Speaker 2: hypnotized by an artist. Doctor Klein was the head, and

1:34:46 Speaker 2: to Bud's credit, he found doctor Clin for me. Okay,

1:34:49 Speaker 2: he was the head of the New York State Department

1:34:52 Speaker 2: of Psychiatry and wonderful world's leading forensic hypnotists. And never

1:34:57 Speaker 2: let it be said that, you know, there's a lot

1:34:59 Speaker 2: of the IC puts out a lot of balloony about

1:35:02 Speaker 2: light detectors not working and hypnosis not working, but it

1:35:08 Speaker 2: does these both of these things do work in the

1:35:10 Speaker 2: hands of experts, not in the hands of someone who

1:35:14 Speaker 2: already believes everything already has a belief system about UFOs

1:35:18 Speaker 2: and is going to transfer that belief system to the

1:35:25 Speaker 2: person being hypnotized. But a doctor like that at that

1:35:28 Speaker 2: level no idea of any of this and purposely didn't

1:35:33 Speaker 2: get into it before hypnotizing me. He had at that

1:35:38 Speaker 2: point solved seventy two cases of hidden runs and other

1:35:44 Speaker 2: crimes using evidence gathered by helping people to remember things

1:35:50 Speaker 2: like license plate numbers. So it's real and tangible evidence.

1:35:57 Speaker 2: I mean, it wasn't used as evidence in court, but

1:35:59 Speaker 2: they would guy go out and find the car and

1:36:01 Speaker 2: find the evidence all in the car, that kind of thing.

1:36:04 Speaker 1: Okay, So should you use it as evidence of court?

1:36:06 Speaker 2: No? No, no, no absolutely not that you can't use

1:36:09 Speaker 2: light detections as evidence in court either, although I have

1:36:11 Speaker 2: to say that what I've learned about memory suggests to

1:36:14 Speaker 2: me they might actually be more accurate than witnesses in

1:36:17 Speaker 2: any case. That's the way we have it now. So,

1:36:22 Speaker 2: doctor Kleine, I understand, I had no idea, but I

1:36:29 Speaker 2: had read a book that my brother sent me called

1:36:34 Speaker 2: Science in the UFOs by Jenny Randalls. He sent it

1:36:37 Speaker 2: to me for Christmas that Christmas, and I looked at

1:36:40 Speaker 2: it and then you know, stupid. Why would he send

1:36:44 Speaker 2: me this? We send each other joke presents a lot

1:36:46 Speaker 2: and Christmas and birthdays. He once tried to give me

1:36:51 Speaker 2: a tarantula, but my wife wouldn't let me take it.

1:36:54 Speaker 2: They make nice pets, but I did not think so

1:36:57 Speaker 2: in any case, so I figured it was a joke

1:37:03 Speaker 2: president and.

1:37:03 Speaker 1: Forgot about it.

1:37:04 Speaker 2: But then after this happened, and I began realizing that

1:37:09 Speaker 2: I had in fact been and this needle mark it

1:37:13 Speaker 2: needly went in my head, had gone in my head,

1:37:16 Speaker 2: and the mark was there. The doctor saw it and

1:37:18 Speaker 2: saw it, it was no question about it.

1:37:21 Speaker 1: And the.

1:37:23 Speaker 2: Damage to my rectum actually took more than twenty years

1:37:26 Speaker 2: to heal. It was significant.

1:37:30 Speaker 1: Wow.

1:37:30 Speaker 2: So now, but there's a gap here between those crimes

1:37:37 Speaker 2: and the and the the removal of seeing my own

1:37:43 Speaker 2: life from my body. Those are crimes, Those are big

1:37:49 Speaker 2: time crimes. But was what did it? These little funny

1:37:54 Speaker 2: looking creatures or was it someone who did something to

1:37:58 Speaker 2: my head when you make a kid, No, I'm talking

1:38:01 Speaker 2: about the communion experience. Something to my head. But that

1:38:07 Speaker 2: maybe went all the way back to nineteen fifty two.

1:38:11 Speaker 2: In other words, maybe I was prepped to believe this.

1:38:14 Speaker 2: You see what I mean from the beginning.

1:38:16 Speaker 1: Right, Well, you made it clear that there was a

1:38:19 Speaker 1: significant amount of trauma you went through when you were

1:38:21 Speaker 1: a kid.

1:38:22 Speaker 2: Well, that's what I'm sorry. I sort of went off

1:38:25 Speaker 2: the subject and let me go back to that. That

1:38:27 Speaker 2: was very traumatic when I was a child, very traumatic,

1:38:31 Speaker 2: and ken Ring lost I got lost in the communiton experience.

1:38:36 Speaker 2: Excuse me. Ken Ring study showed that this was not

1:38:41 Speaker 2: unusual that people who had the close encounter experience had

1:38:44 Speaker 2: had shattering experiences in their childhoods. The cosmic egg had

1:38:49 Speaker 2: been cracked. Their set of assumptions about what was real

1:38:53 Speaker 2: was shattered, and therefore they were open to this experience,

1:38:59 Speaker 2: open to remembering it. And there are a whole lot

1:39:02 Speaker 2: of reasons why it might happen to people and might

1:39:05 Speaker 2: never remember. Yeah.

1:39:06 Speaker 1: When I asked Jeff Kreipel about like consistencies between people

1:39:10 Speaker 1: who had these experiences, he said, the number one consistency

1:39:13 Speaker 1: he believes is trauma.

1:39:14 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's correct. It's trauma.

1:39:17 Speaker 1: And also when you were a child, how did you

1:39:19 Speaker 1: end up in Monterey, Mexico.

1:39:23 Speaker 2: I don't know. We were taken there by a plane.

1:39:27 Speaker 1: You were taken there by plane by my father, by

1:39:31 Speaker 1: your father. Yeah, And was this after what happened at

1:39:36 Speaker 1: the Air Force base. It was during the same during

1:39:39 Speaker 1: the same period period, probably.

1:39:40 Speaker 2: In August of nineteen fifty two, would be my guess,

1:39:43 Speaker 2: because we would have been in school in September.

1:39:45 Speaker 1: Okay, And what was happening in Monterey, Mexico.

1:39:47 Speaker 2: I don't want to talk about it.

1:39:49 Speaker 1: You don't want to talk about it, Okay.

1:39:51 Speaker 2: I don't want to talk about it. It was awful,

1:39:53 Speaker 2: It was awful, I have Here's the reason I don't

1:39:56 Speaker 2: want to talk about it. A, but I meant I

1:39:59 Speaker 2: recall is awful, and B I'm not absolutely sure I'm

1:40:04 Speaker 2: recalling something that really happened. I know the trip happened

1:40:07 Speaker 2: for sure, because I remember being in the plane. I

1:40:11 Speaker 2: remember being in the Grand en Sera hotel in Mexico,

1:40:13 Speaker 2: in a Monterey I remember going up into the into

1:40:18 Speaker 2: the hills to a house that was owned by a

1:40:20 Speaker 2: man who was at the somehow connected with a company,

1:40:28 Speaker 2: an American company that operated mines in Mexico, operated mine mines. Yeah,

1:40:34 Speaker 2: and that there were a lot of other children there

1:40:37 Speaker 2: and it was not a good situation.

1:40:39 Speaker 1: But here's the problem. So you know, for a fact,

1:40:41 Speaker 1: you were in Monterey at this house in a specific

1:40:43 Speaker 1: location doing so.

1:40:44 Speaker 2: I looked, I looked and looked for that house, and

1:40:46 Speaker 2: I've never been able to find it. I can't I

1:40:48 Speaker 2: remember what it looked like in the front. But when

1:40:50 Speaker 2: you go up in the hills above Monterey where those

1:40:53 Speaker 2: nice houses are, they all look like that. You know,

1:40:56 Speaker 2: you just can't pick one out. I drove all in

1:40:58 Speaker 2: there with Ann in my one year I think, with Anne,

1:41:02 Speaker 2: and I couldn't find it, so it was a little frustrating.

1:41:06 Speaker 2: But I also remember the name of the man who

1:41:11 Speaker 2: was supposedly doing this. His name was Antonio Krauss Ka

1:41:17 Speaker 2: r U s E. But I've never been able to

1:41:20 Speaker 2: find anything definite about him. Peter Lavenda did some research

1:41:24 Speaker 2: for me to try to find this guy and found

1:41:27 Speaker 2: that there was a man named that who was at

1:41:33 Speaker 2: had a school for German children in Colombia, and Antonio Krause,

1:41:39 Speaker 2: I remember, spoke very strange accent. It was a mixture

1:41:43 Speaker 2: of a Spanish accent and a German accent. So you know,

1:41:49 Speaker 2: that's all very fragmentary, But I think those are probably

1:41:52 Speaker 2: true memories.

1:41:53 Speaker 1: You don't want to talk about.

1:41:54 Speaker 2: Yeah, because I don't want to talk about it because

1:41:56 Speaker 2: it's very incendiary, and I'm not sure it's real.

1:42:00 Speaker 1: That's the problem. If it was real, what would the

1:42:02 Speaker 1: point of it be.

1:42:05 Speaker 2: The point of it would have been to, I think,

1:42:10 Speaker 2: to traumatize children in such a way that it literally

1:42:15 Speaker 2: cracked the cosmic egg. I think that's what it was

1:42:17 Speaker 2: all about. And whatever was being done to me at

1:42:19 Speaker 2: that Air Force base, if that was is also true,

1:42:22 Speaker 2: and I think it is was an.

1:42:23 Speaker 1: Attempt to.

1:42:26 Speaker 2: Engage with whatever I would call up once I no longer,

1:42:32 Speaker 2: once my worldview had been shattered.

1:42:35 Speaker 1: Do you think it had anything to do with these visitors? Yes,

1:42:38 Speaker 1: it did. It did have something to it, certainly did. Yes.

1:42:40 Speaker 1: So whoever was involved in this trying to making you

1:42:43 Speaker 1: a part of some program, they had the visitors in mind.

1:42:47 Speaker 2: They were trying to sell mustairs. And look look at

1:42:50 Speaker 2: it this way. Here's a Man German America, a German

1:42:55 Speaker 2: Spanish teaching German children in column be a at a

1:43:02 Speaker 2: time when a lot of former Nazis had moved to

1:43:07 Speaker 2: this Operation paper Clip. Well, he could have been on

1:43:10 Speaker 2: Operation paper Clip. Sure, that may be why he was.

1:43:13 Speaker 1: Listen.

1:43:14 Speaker 2: A lot of the Operation paper Clip people lived on

1:43:19 Speaker 2: a street right next to ours, and we were on

1:43:22 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Road in San Antonio, and a number of them

1:43:24 Speaker 2: were on Tuttle.

1:43:24 Speaker 1: Road as in Texas.

1:43:26 Speaker 2: In Texas, and uh, my father used to walk over

1:43:30 Speaker 2: there in those days in the evenings. And I don't

1:43:35 Speaker 2: know if that's correct. It could have been. There were

1:43:38 Speaker 2: there were other There were not paper clip scientists, but

1:43:40 Speaker 2: I do know that they were something to do with

1:43:43 Speaker 2: the government and the military, and they were kind of

1:43:46 Speaker 2: hush hush some of them. Other people were just normal

1:43:50 Speaker 2: people on that street. But that was all happening there

1:43:54 Speaker 2: and there was I you know, I can't I wish

1:43:57 Speaker 2: I could be more clear about it, but it's not

1:43:59 Speaker 2: clear because you talk and I was a seven year

1:44:01 Speaker 2: old boy, and you know, I'm not was not prepared

1:44:07 Speaker 2: to have memories, real true memories formed out of experiences

1:44:14 Speaker 2: that were so far beyond my expectations and understanding. Just

1:44:19 Speaker 2: anyone who says that they remember things like that clearly

1:44:22 Speaker 2: cannot be telling the truth. So I'm doing them my best.

1:44:27 Speaker 1: Did these memories stick with you or were these memories

1:44:29 Speaker 1: brought back with hypnosis?

1:44:32 Speaker 2: No, The only things that stuck with me were the

1:44:36 Speaker 2: memory of growing to the country and the memory of

1:44:38 Speaker 2: the time they went to the country and left me behind. Now,

1:44:42 Speaker 2: when I was with doctor Klein the second time, the

1:44:45 Speaker 2: first time, I was just screaming that on Unknown Country.

1:44:48 Speaker 2: On my website, you can actually find these tapes. They're

1:44:51 Speaker 2: all there, and the first tape is just sounds of

1:44:54 Speaker 2: me screaming away. And I think the Travel Channel did

1:44:58 Speaker 2: a show that has the tapes as well.

1:45:04 Speaker 1: And is that painful for you to listen to?

1:45:08 Speaker 2: Oh? Yes, the screaming when is agonizing, I can hardly listen.

1:45:12 Speaker 2: I've listened to it a couple of times since it happened,

1:45:14 Speaker 2: and it's hard. It was very hard to listen to.

1:45:20 Speaker 2: And then the Travel Channel show starts out with the screaming.

1:45:25 Speaker 3: Boy, that was hard to you know, to keep the

1:45:27 Speaker 3: audience hooked right, Well, yeah, I guess.

1:45:29 Speaker 2: It hooked the audience, but it certainly unhooked me. In

1:45:33 Speaker 2: any case, How did you know to bring up Mono?

1:45:36 Speaker 1: Ray Georgianni. He gave me a about a one hour

1:45:42 Speaker 1: debrief on our history. He's been listening to your interviews

1:45:45 Speaker 1: and reading your books for years.

1:45:46 Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't want to go too far down that

1:45:48 Speaker 2: road because that was the problem, is what I remember is.

1:45:53 Speaker 2: So it's so bizarre and so horrible that I suspect

1:45:59 Speaker 2: the memory. But they're also really incendiary.

1:46:02 Speaker 1: And you mean by it what's incendiary? What do you

1:46:04 Speaker 1: mean by that?

1:46:04 Speaker 2: Well, they're in the sense that if I saved them,

1:46:07 Speaker 2: people are going to really hook onto them. And I

1:46:10 Speaker 2: think that may be an intentional in other words, they

1:46:14 Speaker 2: may have been planted in me in order to deceive

1:46:17 Speaker 2: people and take them on.

1:46:18 Speaker 1: The wrong down, a wrong strategic deception or something exactly.

1:46:21 Speaker 2: And that's why I never refer to them, because I

1:46:24 Speaker 2: don't believe they're real. I think, And you know.

1:46:29 Speaker 1: You sent me an audio file I listened to where

1:46:31 Speaker 1: you were talking about it on There was an audio

1:46:34 Speaker 1: recording I listened to which sounded like it was from

1:46:36 Speaker 1: a long time ago where you were discussing Monterey.

1:46:38 Speaker 2: Yeah. I probably have a few times, and but I

1:46:43 Speaker 2: I remember more now than you know. I just remember

1:46:46 Speaker 2: that it was children, and it was very ugly and.

1:46:52 Speaker 1: The and there was government involved or intelligence involved.

1:46:55 Speaker 2: Well that I don't know what There were people who

1:46:59 Speaker 2: were involved who were obviously I had the impression they

1:47:05 Speaker 2: were military people that they weren't in uniform, and but

1:47:10 Speaker 2: I don't know who they were, you know, I was.

1:47:12 Speaker 2: You see, when you're talking about my childhood, talking about

1:47:15 Speaker 2: a little boy in a very bizarre situation who had

1:47:19 Speaker 2: no no way of understanding what was happening. And and

1:47:26 Speaker 2: that's why the memories are so like. One of the memories,

1:47:29 Speaker 2: I remember seeing my sister holding this hooked saw this

1:47:34 Speaker 2: and uh, but why, I mean, and what was it?

1:47:37 Speaker 2: What was it about?

1:47:38 Speaker 1: And surgical?

1:47:40 Speaker 2: It was like the kind of saw that you saw

1:47:43 Speaker 2: tree limbs off. Yeah, and uh, and she looked terribly,

1:47:48 Speaker 2: terribly upset, and uh, there were bits of red material

1:47:56 Speaker 2: on the saw, and you know that kind of thing.

1:47:59 Speaker 2: I I mean, I'll tell that much, but I'm not

1:48:02 Speaker 2: going to go into the whole lurid memory because I

1:48:07 Speaker 2: just don't know whether it's a terrified little child being confused,

1:48:15 Speaker 2: or if it's something entirely different, or I just don't know.

1:48:20 Speaker 2: And my dad and my sister are passed on, and

1:48:22 Speaker 2: my sister would never talk about it. I never got

1:48:25 Speaker 2: to ask my dad about it because I didn't remember

1:48:27 Speaker 2: that part of it. And I remembered going to Monterey,

1:48:31 Speaker 2: and I remember there was something wrong, but I didn't

1:48:34 Speaker 2: remember any details like that until after don Kline and

1:48:38 Speaker 2: what happened? Are we recording again? Yes?

1:48:41 Speaker 1: Okay, good?

1:48:42 Speaker 2: All right? After during the second hypnosis session with Don Klein,

1:48:51 Speaker 2: he suddenly asks me how old are you? And I

1:48:55 Speaker 2: heard my little Texas boy voice pipe up twelve and

1:49:03 Speaker 2: I was shocked. I mean, you're not like out of

1:49:06 Speaker 2: it when you're on hypnosis, at least I wasn't. You're

1:49:09 Speaker 2: aware of everything that's going on. But it's a very

1:49:14 Speaker 2: different state of mind like I was seeing, revisiting, the

1:49:18 Speaker 2: reliving these things.

1:49:20 Speaker 1: When I was with Klein.

1:49:22 Speaker 2: It was remarkable. First and second hypnosis sessions were remarkable.

1:49:27 Speaker 2: After that, the third session we tried, he said it's over.

1:49:30 Speaker 2: We'll never be able to go there again. We tried

1:49:33 Speaker 2: a third time. It didn't work.

1:49:35 Speaker 1: Why why would it have been over?

1:49:36 Speaker 2: It?

1:49:36 Speaker 1: Because I was.

1:49:40 Speaker 2: Responding, you know, it's suggestions and when you are expecting

1:49:48 Speaker 2: the answer, if you have expectations about what your answers

1:49:53 Speaker 2: are going to be, you will try to please the hypnotist,

1:49:58 Speaker 2: and therefore you will answer, You will confabulate without knowing it,

1:50:04 Speaker 2: and you will build a false memory in yourself. I've

1:50:07 Speaker 2: been very interested in the work of a quite a

1:50:11 Speaker 2: good memory researcher called Elizabeth Loftus, who has been quite

1:50:15 Speaker 2: critical of the use of hypnosis, I think more critical

1:50:19 Speaker 2: than she should have been, because it was used in

1:50:23 Speaker 2: these child abuse cases, and really people were harmed by

1:50:28 Speaker 2: children being essentially hypnotized and remembering things that didn't happen.

1:50:34 Speaker 2: And that's a major issue in my life. I do

1:50:39 Speaker 2: not want to be the victim of my own memory.

1:50:46 Speaker 2: Did you ever meet doctor John Mack?

1:50:48 Speaker 1: Of course I knew him well. Were you were in

1:50:51 Speaker 1: one of his books?

1:50:53 Speaker 2: Am I in one of his books?

1:50:54 Speaker 1: Did he write about you in any of his life?

1:50:55 Speaker 2: I don't know. We mostly talked about practical jokes we

1:50:59 Speaker 2: play together. We were we were big pranksters when of

1:51:02 Speaker 2: your kids, both of us. And he never hypnotized you. No, No,

1:51:05 Speaker 2: he didn't really hypnotize people. He used a breath technique. Oh, okay,

1:51:12 Speaker 2: he didn't. I don't think he did hypnosis. He may have, he,

1:51:18 Speaker 2: I'm not sure, but he was. He was a wonderful

1:51:24 Speaker 2: man and a very brave man. I'll never forget the

1:51:26 Speaker 2: morning and called me up and told me that he

1:51:28 Speaker 2: was in danger of losing both his license to practice

1:51:31 Speaker 2: psychiatry and his tenure. And I thought to myself, my God,

1:51:36 Speaker 2: what is he going to do? And you know, and

1:51:40 Speaker 2: and unfortunately Harvard saw the the head of the department,

1:51:49 Speaker 2: or whoever was in charge, saw the situation more clearly eventually,

1:51:55 Speaker 2: and the problem went away. But I remember that, I

1:51:59 Speaker 2: remember John vividly, and I remember how I felt the

1:52:03 Speaker 2: morning someone called me and said John Scotten killed last

1:52:09 Speaker 2: night London.

1:52:13 Speaker 1: John.

1:52:14 Speaker 2: I remember when he called me up and he said,

1:52:19 Speaker 2: there's an incredible case in Africa. I'm going to going

1:52:23 Speaker 2: to go over there. And I thought, my I should

1:52:27 Speaker 2: go with him, but I didn't have the money at

1:52:30 Speaker 2: the time. We were going through the broke period, which

1:52:33 Speaker 2: happened in the in the late nineties and early two thousands,

1:52:39 Speaker 2: so or I was otherwise occupied. I forget which in

1:52:43 Speaker 2: any case, it was ninety six, right, yeah, well I

1:52:45 Speaker 2: would have been the height of the broke period if

1:52:47 Speaker 2: it was ninety six.

1:52:49 Speaker 1: So I've recovered somewhat.

1:52:53 Speaker 2: Fortunately, But it was a long time of having not

1:52:57 Speaker 2: a lot of money. And so anyway, John and he

1:53:02 Speaker 2: came back and he called me again. He said, it

1:53:05 Speaker 2: is incredible. I've made videos. I'm going to send you

1:53:09 Speaker 2: the videos. And I got a box of these tapes.

1:53:14 Speaker 2: I realized it was an extraordinary story. But something that's

1:53:17 Speaker 2: not in the story that's terribly important. It is that

1:53:22 Speaker 2: the uh, that area right near the school is an

1:53:28 Speaker 2: area where for generations, thousands of years probably there has

1:53:33 Speaker 2: been a level of communication with the ancestors, between the

1:53:38 Speaker 2: living and the dead in other words, and this is

1:53:41 Speaker 2: a critically important part of the whole experience. That is,

1:53:46 Speaker 2: we're just now beginning to get our heads around. One day,

1:53:54 Speaker 2: when Anne was collecting all of the letters that are

1:53:56 Speaker 2: now at Rice University at the Archives of the Possible

1:54:00 Speaker 2: collected by Jeff Kreipel. Now, she walked out of her

1:54:04 Speaker 2: office and there's just thousands of letters were coming in

1:54:08 Speaker 2: from people who had had experiences after they saw the

1:54:12 Speaker 2: face on the cover of Communion. And she said, Whitley,

1:54:15 Speaker 2: this has something to do with what we call death,

1:54:18 Speaker 2: because so many people have the dead in their close

1:54:24 Speaker 2: encounter experiences. And that happened when we had groups of

1:54:27 Speaker 2: people having experiences with a visitor with the Grays up

1:54:30 Speaker 2: at our cabin, which we had a number of times.

1:54:34 Speaker 1: How so, how are the dead involved.

1:54:37 Speaker 2: Oh, that's an excellent question, and let's leave that for

1:54:42 Speaker 2: the future. To answer correctly. I could only theorize the

1:54:49 Speaker 2: the what happens is that, well, I'll give you an

1:54:52 Speaker 2: example to illustrate it. Lady Glory Burns is at the

1:54:58 Speaker 2: cabin and secretary at this point, and she's had a

1:55:03 Speaker 2: close encounter experience and would invite people like Luri Barnes

1:55:07 Speaker 2: and Raven Dana, who have all gone out publicly with

1:55:09 Speaker 2: their experiences, to the cabin and when she felt like

1:55:15 Speaker 2: the visitors would show up, and she was uncanny about that. Annie.

1:55:20 Speaker 2: Annie was into this in a very unusual way. I

1:55:23 Speaker 2: don't know quite. I don't know if she knew what

1:55:26 Speaker 2: she knew, let me put it that, but she knew

1:55:28 Speaker 2: a lot and she seemed to be working with them

1:55:33 Speaker 2: in some way. In any case, Laurie's walking down the

1:55:36 Speaker 2: road in front of the house in the afternoon. We'd

1:55:39 Speaker 2: got just before dinner, and she's taken.

1:55:41 Speaker 1: A walk.

1:55:43 Speaker 2: And suddenly her brother's standing there in the road and

1:55:48 Speaker 2: she says, my god, how wonderful. How did you know

1:55:54 Speaker 2: I was here? Come down and meet my friends. And

1:55:58 Speaker 2: he says, I just want did to tell you that

1:56:01 Speaker 2: I'm all right? And he drifts back into the woods

1:56:06 Speaker 2: glides and just disappears. And the reason she was so

1:56:09 Speaker 2: amazed is that he was dead. He had disappeared twenty

1:56:18 Speaker 2: years before and the FBI had given him up as dead,

1:56:22 Speaker 2: and she thought he was dead, and then suddenly there

1:56:26 Speaker 2: he was. But then when he drifted off into the woods,

1:56:29 Speaker 2: she realized he wasn't physically there. He only looked physically there,

1:56:33 Speaker 2: only looked real. And that was And as soon as

1:56:38 Speaker 2: Anne heard that story, when Laurie came kind of staggering

1:56:41 Speaker 2: in to dinner and told us this had happened, and

1:56:45 Speaker 2: he says to me quietly, the visitors will be here tonight.

1:56:49 Speaker 2: And they were there. They came in and they first

1:56:52 Speaker 2: went to Raven Dana. They went to a filmmaker, Drew Cummings.

1:56:57 Speaker 2: It was in the living room with sleeping on the

1:57:00 Speaker 2: vultable convertible couch with his wife. And they went into

1:57:04 Speaker 2: the next room where Lori Burnes was one of them

1:57:08 Speaker 2: and a different one in the living room. So she

1:57:12 Speaker 2: was absolutely right. And there's a connection. I'll give you

1:57:15 Speaker 2: another story that illustrates this connection in a slightly different way.

1:57:25 Speaker 2: This is before the Internet, in those gloriously quiet days

1:57:28 Speaker 2: of your and I got a call from my agency, Quitley,

1:57:35 Speaker 2: there is someone desperate to get a hold of you,

1:57:39 Speaker 2: and he's gotten a hold of the agency. And to

1:57:43 Speaker 2: find my literary agency in those days and find anything

1:57:46 Speaker 2: about a private person like me was not easy. So

1:57:49 Speaker 2: I figured, you know, I'll call this guy because he's

1:57:52 Speaker 2: trying so hard. So I phone him and he says,

1:57:56 Speaker 2: mister Streeber, I want to tell you a story, and

1:57:59 Speaker 2: I want you to tell me if I have any

1:58:01 Speaker 2: reason to believe this. My wife and I were sitting

1:58:06 Speaker 2: in the living room a few nights ago. It was

1:58:10 Speaker 2: we had taken the dog out for a walk, and

1:58:14 Speaker 2: the dog was asleep, and she's an old dog and

1:58:17 Speaker 2: very much a creature of habit, and suddenly she became

1:58:21 Speaker 2: extremely nervous and got up and wanted to go out again.

1:58:25 Speaker 2: So my wife took her out, and as they went

1:58:29 Speaker 2: out the front door, what looked like a burning plane

1:58:33 Speaker 2: went overhead and disappeared beyond the trees. And he was

1:58:38 Speaker 2: an FAA. He was in the FAA, and so she

1:58:44 Speaker 2: called back to him, you're going to get a call.

1:58:47 Speaker 2: I just saw a plane go in on fire. And

1:58:51 Speaker 2: that moment, their little seven year old boy comes running

1:58:55 Speaker 2: downstairs saying, Mommy, daddy, mommy daddy. Little blue men came

1:59:02 Speaker 2: into my room with Johnny, his older brother, a teenager

1:59:09 Speaker 2: with them, and he told me to tell you he

1:59:11 Speaker 2: was all right, and he wanted to know if this

1:59:17 Speaker 2: could be true, because his teenage son a couple of

1:59:20 Speaker 2: weeks before had been killed in an auto accident. These

1:59:24 Speaker 2: are the same people I saw with Jeff, with my

1:59:27 Speaker 2: aunt I've lived with for years. They're connected to the

1:59:31 Speaker 2: Grays in some way, and they are connected to our dead,

1:59:37 Speaker 2: they said. Laurie Barnes had had an experience with them

1:59:41 Speaker 2: where when she was a young woman with pregnant with

1:59:44 Speaker 2: her first child. She was asleep, lying in bed, rereading

1:59:48 Speaker 2: actually at about eleven o'clock at night. They were performers

1:59:51 Speaker 2: and her husband was out on a gig. She was

1:59:55 Speaker 2: obviously at home, she was pregnant, and she noticed movement

2:00:00 Speaker 2: in the room. She looked up and there was this terrible,

2:00:03 Speaker 2: frightening looking little blue man, dark blue troll like figure

2:00:08 Speaker 2: that I now lived.

2:00:09 Speaker 1: With often, the little short stocky ones.

2:00:12 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

2:00:13 Speaker 1: And what do their faces look like?

2:00:17 Speaker 2: You know?

2:00:20 Speaker 1: Illustrations that accurately.

2:00:22 Speaker 2: Yeah, the the community, the ones in the Communion movie

2:00:26 Speaker 2: are pretty close. Okay, they're pretty close. They sort of

2:00:30 Speaker 2: look like they have almost they're hard to look at.

2:00:34 Speaker 2: They're they're very pit crushed up faces. They have uniforms

2:00:39 Speaker 2: that have got a lot of patch a lot of

2:00:41 Speaker 2: pockets and straps and things on them.

2:00:43 Speaker 1: See if you can keep going. So that's the big

2:00:47 Speaker 1: tall that's the woman.

2:00:49 Speaker 2: The yeah, the one on the one beside the the

2:00:56 Speaker 2: side Christopher with the round mouth. That's what they look like.

2:01:02 Speaker 1: The little stocking. Oh, the one the woman looks like

2:01:05 Speaker 1: it's blowing. Yeah, to the very left. Yeah, that's right there,

2:01:08 Speaker 1: right next to Christopher walking. Yeah, that's that's Nope, Nope,

2:01:11 Speaker 1: to the right, Yep, right there, Nope, nope, nope, agreed, No,

2:01:15 Speaker 1: look at Christopher walking.

2:01:18 Speaker 2: That's the That's what they look like. Only their eyes

2:01:21 Speaker 2: are bigger and more insect like, as I recall, and

2:01:25 Speaker 2: they have. That's one of their expressions. And another one

2:01:28 Speaker 2: is their face is just really flat.

2:01:30 Speaker 1: By the way, how cool is it the Christopher Walking

2:01:33 Speaker 1: played you in a movie. That was pretty cool.

2:01:36 Speaker 2: I was pretty happy about that.

2:01:38 Speaker 1: That's pretty incredible.

2:01:39 Speaker 2: Yeah, I wish you hadn't sort of overplayed me because

2:01:42 Speaker 2: I'm really very sedate and quiet. And he said to me, well,

2:01:46 Speaker 2: you know, sedate doesn't work in a movie.

2:01:49 Speaker 1: What was it like when you met When you met

2:01:51 Speaker 1: him and he was getting ready to like gear up

2:01:52 Speaker 1: for the movie.

2:01:54 Speaker 2: What was it like when I met Christopher Walking? Yeah,

2:01:57 Speaker 2: well it was quite interesting. He was he was he

2:02:02 Speaker 2: was into it. He was definitely into it. He'd read

2:02:04 Speaker 2: the book and he was very aware of it. He'd

2:02:07 Speaker 2: read my script, which he thought was no good and said,

2:02:10 Speaker 2: know on certain terms, and he said, you know the

2:02:13 Speaker 2: He said, you know, the writer never thinks about the

2:02:16 Speaker 2: actor and what he has to say. And I said, well,

2:02:20 Speaker 2: you don't like my script? He said, no, I wouldn't say.

2:02:24 Speaker 2: That's close. Also that picture, he says, no, I wouldn't

2:02:27 Speaker 2: say I I don't like it. But we're still going

2:02:30 Speaker 2: to make a movie. And so he did make a movie,

2:02:33 Speaker 2: but not a lot of my script got into it.

2:02:35 Speaker 1: He had lived most.

2:02:36 Speaker 2: Of the movie. Really, Yeah, pretty much. I think he did.

2:02:40 Speaker 2: At least that was my impression.

2:02:41 Speaker 1: Doom Mount Steve, go back to the other picture. Go

2:02:43 Speaker 1: to the picture of the alien that's like a like

2:02:45 Speaker 1: at the bottom of his face is ripped off. Yeah,

2:02:48 Speaker 1: right there. What's going on here? Uh, that's nothing to

2:02:51 Speaker 1: do with my They just they altered the move.

2:02:54 Speaker 2: That's that's something else. It's nothing to do with my movie.

2:02:57 Speaker 1: And it's horrible.

2:02:58 Speaker 3: And how accurate is go down, go down, go down?

2:03:01 Speaker 1: Right there? Up up the mean looking face? How accurate

2:03:06 Speaker 1: is that to what you saw? Uh?

2:03:11 Speaker 2: Well, I've seen something like that in the hanging in

2:03:16 Speaker 2: the window of my house. But it didn't have that

2:03:19 Speaker 2: sense of menace about it. It was it was that color

2:03:22 Speaker 2: and it was just hanging in the window, okay, but

2:03:27 Speaker 2: it wasn't menacing. Although when you're face to face with

2:03:31 Speaker 2: it's gonna look menacing, believe me, right.

2:03:34 Speaker 1: So we were kidding, we were getting ready to go

2:03:37 Speaker 1: jump down this rabbit hole earlier. But I think we

2:03:39 Speaker 1: went off on a tangent. But I want to go

2:03:42 Speaker 1: back to the December twenty sixth, nineteen eighty five incident.

2:03:45 Speaker 1: Was that the most frightening and vivid experience you ever had?

2:03:53 Speaker 2: I had blanked out most of the really terrible things

2:03:55 Speaker 2: that had happened during childhood.

2:03:57 Speaker 3: So at that time, yes, at that time, and you

2:04:00 Speaker 3: were in your forties, I was forty five, forty five,

2:04:04 Speaker 3: Nor was I forty? Okay, can you walk me through that?

2:04:09 Speaker 2: Forty I was forty.

2:04:10 Speaker 1: Can you to your best of your recollection. Can you

2:04:12 Speaker 1: walk me through at least what you experienced during the

2:04:15 Speaker 1: hypnosis where you got more details from this.

2:04:18 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, by the time I went into hypnosis, I

2:04:22 Speaker 2: had pretty much the whole thing in my head. Only

2:04:26 Speaker 2: my problem was I didn't believe it could be real.

2:04:29 Speaker 1: Okay, and.

2:04:32 Speaker 2: Neither did doctor Klein, by the way, we both thought.

2:04:35 Speaker 2: We didn't talk about this with Bud because he was

2:04:38 Speaker 2: convinced it was real. We were sort of laughing up

2:04:40 Speaker 2: our sleeves at him, to be honest with you, because

2:04:44 Speaker 2: neither of us thought in for a minute this was

2:04:47 Speaker 2: anything to do with aliens. I had forgotten it pretty

2:04:53 Speaker 2: much everything about my childhood. I remembered the two experiences

2:04:57 Speaker 2: I talked about earlier, but his strange experiences. There's a

2:05:00 Speaker 2: third one I haven't mentioned, by the way, but that

2:05:03 Speaker 2: I also remembered always, which I will just I'll go back.

2:05:07 Speaker 2: We can go back to it. It's not an important experience.

2:05:10 Speaker 2: But in any case, I had certainly not thought about

2:05:14 Speaker 2: flying saucers in years. I thought about them a lot

2:05:17 Speaker 2: in the fifties because there was a big UFO incident

2:05:20 Speaker 2: called the leveland Texas UFO incident, where the father of

2:05:25 Speaker 2: one of my closest friends in those days, had been

2:05:32 Speaker 2: a part of it. He had seen the UFO and

2:05:35 Speaker 2: it caused cars to stop, and his cards stopped on

2:05:37 Speaker 2: the highway and everything. So we boys were really and

2:05:40 Speaker 2: we were eating this stuff up in those days. But

2:05:43 Speaker 2: you know, you get older, you grow up, you've become

2:05:45 Speaker 2: a teenager, you cease to be interested in aliens and

2:05:48 Speaker 2: become interested in girls. And I was intensely interested in girls.

2:05:52 Speaker 2: I couldn't have cared less about it, especially ugly aliens.

2:05:56 Speaker 2: So by the time I went to there, I was

2:06:01 Speaker 2: By the time I went to don Klin, I was

2:06:04 Speaker 2: sure something had happened. I was sure I had been injured.

2:06:08 Speaker 2: And I was also pretty sure that I had been

2:06:13 Speaker 2: attacked criminally, and that these faces and so forth had

2:06:18 Speaker 2: something more to do with some kind of drugs or

2:06:20 Speaker 2: something than they did with the real world. So I was.

2:06:28 Speaker 2: But when the hypnosis session occurred, the first hypnosis occurred,

2:06:34 Speaker 2: I hadn't consciously remembered what I remembered in the hypnosis.

2:06:39 Speaker 2: The conscious memory was of two friends, Jacques Santelesco and

2:06:43 Speaker 2: Anti Gottliebre at the cabin in October of nineteen eighty five,

2:06:47 Speaker 2: and we were asleep in the middle of the night,

2:06:50 Speaker 2: all of us. We were upstairs in our bedroom. They

2:06:52 Speaker 2: were downstairs in their bed in the guest room, and

2:06:55 Speaker 2: our son was in his room beside their room downstairs.

2:07:00 Speaker 2: And suddenly this huge light came over the house and

2:07:04 Speaker 2: just the windows were just light was pouring in every window. Uh.

2:07:09 Speaker 2: And it just scared the living daylights out of me

2:07:12 Speaker 2: because I thought the roof was on fire because the

2:07:15 Speaker 2: woodstove had been burning. And I jumped out of bed.

2:07:20 Speaker 2: Then there was this. Before I jumped out of bed,

2:07:23 Speaker 2: there was this big bang. My boy started screaming. I

2:07:28 Speaker 2: could hear Annie and Jock yelling. I went and looked

2:07:33 Speaker 2: out up. The light went out at that moment, so

2:07:38 Speaker 2: I went running downstairs to get to Andrew, who was

2:07:41 Speaker 2: still screaming. And I passed Jock and Annie's room and

2:07:44 Speaker 2: said to Annie, yeah, Annie was standing in the door.

2:07:48 Speaker 2: As I recall, or they we have both been there,

2:07:50 Speaker 2: that it's okay, just go back to bed. And I

2:07:54 Speaker 2: went and comforted my son. How old was he He

2:07:58 Speaker 2: would have been six, I guess going on seven at

2:08:01 Speaker 2: that time. It's been seventh. Birthday was a few weeks later, so,

2:08:09 Speaker 2: you know, we talked about it a little bit the

2:08:10 Speaker 2: next day and they wanted to go home, and so

2:08:13 Speaker 2: we took them home, and in the hypnosis session, I

2:08:20 Speaker 2: remembered seeing something standing like the dark blue figures in

2:08:24 Speaker 2: the corner of my bedroom. And that hypnosis session scared

2:08:29 Speaker 2: me worse than anything it had happened before. And it

2:08:32 Speaker 2: was the first time I began to think, maybe this

2:08:35 Speaker 2: is real because when I I didn't have any memory

2:08:41 Speaker 2: of this, and I had remember at that point, I

2:08:43 Speaker 2: had no idea what they looked like with the big

2:08:46 Speaker 2: eyes or anything like that, but it had been very careful

2:08:49 Speaker 2: to not let me get in near anything that had

2:08:53 Speaker 2: any pictures or anything like that.

2:08:55 Speaker 3: That all came about after the first hypnosis, the images

2:08:57 Speaker 3: of them.

2:08:58 Speaker 2: The images of them came about during the second hypnosse

2:09:01 Speaker 2: the second hypnosis, and the first hypnosis, all I got

2:09:04 Speaker 2: was the image of that dark blue figure standing in

2:09:07 Speaker 2: the corner of the room, and it was just terrifying,

2:09:11 Speaker 2: absolutely terrifying. Then the second hypnosis comes and at this

2:09:19 Speaker 2: point we're not really sure. We were laughing about Bud

2:09:24 Speaker 2: before the first hypnosis, we're not laughing so much now.

2:09:28 Speaker 2: But doctor Klein is still fairly sure that this is

2:09:32 Speaker 2: some kind of a crime that's been committed, which it was.

2:09:36 Speaker 2: I mean, it's just I don't think it was committed

2:09:37 Speaker 2: by human beings anymore, but I did then. I'm not

2:09:41 Speaker 2: absolutely sure about that though to this day. Believe me,

2:09:44 Speaker 2: I'm never going to say that this is Ali in

2:09:47 Speaker 2: contact until I have proof, physical proof. And if people

2:09:52 Speaker 2: say it's imaginal or whatever, or interdimensional and so forth,

2:09:56 Speaker 2: and we can never get proof, then I'm going to

2:09:58 Speaker 2: state where I am now. In any case, midway through

2:10:03 Speaker 2: the second hypnosis, he suddenly says, Doctor Clin says, how

2:10:07 Speaker 2: old are you? And that's when my voice goes twelve?

2:10:12 Speaker 2: And I suddenly begin to remember things from my childhood.

2:10:17 Speaker 2: And it was quite amazing, quite amazing. And afterwards I

2:10:22 Speaker 2: said to doctor Clin, how did you know to ask

2:10:24 Speaker 2: me my age? He said, Whitley, your voice had changed.

2:10:28 Speaker 2: And my experience of working with people who have been

2:10:31 Speaker 2: abused is that they will go back to the abused,

2:10:36 Speaker 2: the period of abuse, and their voice will return to

2:10:41 Speaker 2: the cadence and tone of that it was when they

2:10:45 Speaker 2: were being abused, and then if I ask them questions

2:10:48 Speaker 2: about the abuse, I will get detailed and accurate answers.

2:10:54 Speaker 2: Now that's how it should be done, not how I

2:10:56 Speaker 2: was done to the poor people who Elizabeth loft to

2:10:59 Speaker 2: say from the whoscal But that's the real way to

2:11:04 Speaker 2: do it, and he did it right. But that was

2:11:09 Speaker 2: when we became rather sure that it was not human

2:11:16 Speaker 2: because it had happened in my childhood. And I put

2:11:19 Speaker 2: the memories together with the memories of those strange memories

2:11:23 Speaker 2: that had been in my childhood. And the third one

2:11:25 Speaker 2: I referred to briefly was of being in this dark

2:11:29 Speaker 2: blue kind of like a big old fashioned life raft,

2:11:33 Speaker 2: you know, with big tubular sides, floating over the neighborhood

2:11:39 Speaker 2: and hanging over the edge of it, and having these guys,

2:11:41 Speaker 2: these little guys, gasping and trying to pull me in

2:11:44 Speaker 2: because they didn't want me to fall off. And it's

2:11:47 Speaker 2: just a fragmentary memory, and it meant nothing. I thought

2:11:50 Speaker 2: it was probably a dream, and I never thought about it.

2:11:53 Speaker 2: But then after all this happened, I thought maybe it

2:11:55 Speaker 2: wasn't a dream. And so that's where that kind of

2:11:57 Speaker 2: sits in my mind. But it's one of the little memories.

2:12:00 Speaker 2: It's always been in my mind.

2:12:04 Speaker 1: Now.

2:12:06 Speaker 2: So we had a situation then where it had apparently

2:12:10 Speaker 2: been in my life. My dad had already passed away.

2:12:16 Speaker 2: My mother didn't said she didn't remember anything about this.

2:12:21 Speaker 2: But my brother said two things about when he told

2:12:23 Speaker 2: her about communion. The first time he told me that

2:12:27 Speaker 2: she had told her. I said, what did she say?

2:12:29 Speaker 2: And she said, well, she said, oh my god, Whitley's

2:12:32 Speaker 2: written about the little men. Yeah. Now he says, I

2:12:38 Speaker 2: never said that. She just said Whitley's written about little men.

2:12:42 Speaker 2: So which is true? I don't remember. I don't know.

2:12:45 Speaker 1: Okay. So there is one moment when you explain how

2:12:52 Speaker 1: these things carried you out to the forest into a

2:12:55 Speaker 1: little depression. You found yourself being elevated above the trees.

2:12:58 Speaker 1: The next thing you know, you're sing on a bench

2:13:00 Speaker 1: with this female entity that you believed it was female,

2:13:03 Speaker 1: but you didn't know for sure.

2:13:04 Speaker 2: It felt female. Later I found out it definitely was.

2:13:07 Speaker 1: And this is the image of the of the being

2:13:09 Speaker 1: that's on the front of your book with the bag

2:13:10 Speaker 1: is the classical uf, the classical alien.

2:13:12 Speaker 2: What happened was, now this we're moving to December of

2:13:15 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty five from October. Now this happened. I woke

2:13:21 Speaker 2: up because there was movement around me, and I was

2:13:28 Speaker 2: when I woke up, I was already in the little room.

2:13:30 Speaker 2: When I initially, over the next few days or a

2:13:36 Speaker 2: few weeks, I should say, I remembered this figure in

2:13:39 Speaker 2: coming into the into the bedroom with a funny hat

2:13:44 Speaker 2: on and this like suit of armor, a little shield

2:13:49 Speaker 2: on its chest. And but initially, when I was struggling

2:13:56 Speaker 2: with this, I was remembering mostly what had happened inside

2:14:02 Speaker 2: the room under hypnosis. There was added to it the

2:14:08 Speaker 2: memory of sitting in the woods with these other creatures,

2:14:13 Speaker 2: and they were all they were like I perceived them

2:14:16 Speaker 2: as young people, and they were in these uniforms that

2:14:20 Speaker 2: were completely body complete body suits, and they had on

2:14:24 Speaker 2: helmets that had round eye holes and round thing at

2:14:29 Speaker 2: the mouth. And they did not, in other words, look

2:14:32 Speaker 2: like grays. They looked like grays might look if they

2:14:34 Speaker 2: were wearing some kind of a mask. But the most

2:14:42 Speaker 2: vivid thing in the whole hypnosis, in many ways, was

2:14:46 Speaker 2: the sensation of going up into the air, which I

2:14:51 Speaker 2: was like being in an elevator with no elevator. I

2:14:54 Speaker 2: just went right up past the trees and I ended

2:14:56 Speaker 2: up in the little room. And so you put all

2:14:59 Speaker 2: of that together and it becomes a single coherent sequence,

2:15:04 Speaker 2: but it was fragmentary before the hypnosis. Before the hypnosis,

2:15:09 Speaker 2: I remembered mainly waking up in the little room and

2:15:14 Speaker 2: being absolutely terrified that I couldn't move and there were

2:15:19 Speaker 2: these huge insects in the room, and then thinking it

2:15:22 Speaker 2: was a nightmare, and then not being able to wake

2:15:25 Speaker 2: up further from it and panicking, and then this voice,

2:15:29 Speaker 2: this automatic voice, came on, going what can we do

2:15:32 Speaker 2: to help you stop screaming? What can we do to

2:15:34 Speaker 2: help you stop screaming? The answer was, well, one thing

2:15:38 Speaker 2: would be not anything you were doing now. But you know,

2:15:44 Speaker 2: there's an interesting side story here that is I don't

2:15:49 Speaker 2: believe is in any of my books. About a year later,

2:15:54 Speaker 2: a friend who lived in the same area as we did,

2:16:00 Speaker 2: came over to the cabin after he had read Communion.

2:16:03 Speaker 2: About two years later, I guess it was a year

2:16:04 Speaker 2: and a half later. Whenever, it was about six weeks

2:16:07 Speaker 2: after Communion came out in nineteen eighty eight. That's when

2:16:10 Speaker 2: he would have come over and he said, Whitley, I

2:16:13 Speaker 2: have something I want to talk to you about, which

2:16:16 Speaker 2: was not unusual. I mean, you know, we were on

2:16:19 Speaker 2: the same private road, and we often had things to

2:16:21 Speaker 2: talk about. So he came in and he says, I'm

2:16:24 Speaker 2: embarrassed to say that I saw this happen to you,

2:16:28 Speaker 2: and I'm.

2:16:31 Speaker 1: I ran.

2:16:34 Speaker 2: And I said to him, you're lucky you ran, You're alive.

2:16:40 Speaker 2: And he told me this story. He said, he and

2:16:43 Speaker 2: his wife are coming home from a party at about

2:16:45 Speaker 2: two o'clock in the morning up in Woodstock and coming

2:16:49 Speaker 2: down to our place, our area, and he was passing

2:16:53 Speaker 2: down a road and there's a number of fields. It's

2:16:59 Speaker 2: very rural on that road, and he saw what he

2:17:03 Speaker 2: thought was the Goodyear Blimp down in front of a

2:17:07 Speaker 2: row of trees in that field. It was snowy field,

2:17:11 Speaker 2: and he was a retired state trooper, and so he

2:17:16 Speaker 2: felt an immediate need to stop and render aid if

2:17:20 Speaker 2: he could, because obviously, two o'clock in the morning, the

2:17:23 Speaker 2: night after Christmas, the Goodyear Blimp does not belong in

2:17:27 Speaker 2: that field and any way whatsoever. So he stops, he

2:17:30 Speaker 2: gets out of the car, climbs the fence, and starts

2:17:36 Speaker 2: trudging into the field with the snow, and he hears

2:17:40 Speaker 2: screaming inside the thing, and he starts to run toward it.

2:17:43 Speaker 2: Then and it turns, lights turn on all over it.

2:17:48 Speaker 2: It starts to make a growling noise and comes toward

2:17:51 Speaker 2: him behind him in the car. His wife panics and

2:17:55 Speaker 2: he panics. He jumps back in the car and comes home,

2:17:59 Speaker 2: and he says, Whitley, I think it was probably you

2:18:02 Speaker 2: in there, because it was the same night and everything.

2:18:05 Speaker 1: And now from the ground, do you say it was.

2:18:08 Speaker 2: Hovering above the ground. He didn't say a specific number

2:18:11 Speaker 2: of feet, but I mean I would say ten fifteen feet,

2:18:15 Speaker 2: not far far low enough to where he thought it was.

2:18:18 Speaker 2: The blimp was in trouble, and he said, I think

2:18:23 Speaker 2: it might have been you in there, and I'm so

2:18:25 Speaker 2: sorry that I didn't try to help you. And I

2:18:27 Speaker 2: said to him, you're here because you didn't try to

2:18:31 Speaker 2: help me. Would be I have no idea what would

2:18:34 Speaker 2: have happened to him, but whatever it was, it wouldn't

2:18:37 Speaker 2: have been good because they were doing this, and you know,

2:18:40 Speaker 2: when they get their mind to do something, they're going

2:18:42 Speaker 2: to do it. And if someone impedes their their actions,

2:18:47 Speaker 2: they're they're going to react to that. I mean, you

2:18:50 Speaker 2: know they're they're they're very passive until they're either threatened

2:18:56 Speaker 2: or or impeded.

2:18:59 Speaker 1: And how how so?

2:19:02 Speaker 2: I mean, like them, they're going to shoot back at you,

2:19:05 Speaker 2: you turn right, shoot back at you.

2:19:08 Speaker 1: Who has shot at them that has been shot?

2:19:10 Speaker 2: I think the Air Force is shot at them. In

2:19:12 Speaker 2: my book Them, I go into that, and I go

2:19:14 Speaker 2: into a discussion of a of an MRI scan that

2:19:20 Speaker 2: was briefly up on YouTube on Twitter, and and it

2:19:26 Speaker 2: shows a brain with bad demyelinization in the area of

2:19:32 Speaker 2: the caud eight and the pudamin and uh that part

2:19:36 Speaker 2: of the brain, the executive area.

2:19:38 Speaker 1: Of the brain, the basil ganglia.

2:19:39 Speaker 2: Yeah, which is what you would you would harm if

2:19:43 Speaker 2: you wanted to make a person unable to control an airplane.

2:19:47 Speaker 2: And this man apparently died a few days later. And

2:19:51 Speaker 2: the this MRI was taken of an Air Force officer

2:19:56 Speaker 2: who had been ordered on combat air patrol to fire

2:19:59 Speaker 2: missiles at one of these UFOs. It was only up

2:20:03 Speaker 2: on the internet for a few days or maybe even

2:20:06 Speaker 2: a few hours, but I did get a hold of

2:20:08 Speaker 2: a copy of it and still around. I'm sure I

2:20:11 Speaker 2: have it myself, and I discussed it extensively in them

2:20:15 Speaker 2: because of course it's very much like Havana syndrome.

2:20:18 Speaker 1: Do you ever have your brain studied by any of

2:20:19 Speaker 1: these people like Gary Nolan or any of those people

2:20:21 Speaker 1: that it's.

2:20:22 Speaker 2: Been studied by someone in the central intelligence agencies.

2:20:27 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you mentioned that in the beginning, that's they

2:20:29 Speaker 1: found the implant.

2:20:30 Speaker 2: Well, no, he's he was interested in the implant. No way,

2:20:33 Speaker 2: I'm getting rid of the implant now. I use it

2:20:35 Speaker 2: every day of my life. It's my go to tool

2:20:38 Speaker 2: for writing, and it's my best writing tool you could

2:20:40 Speaker 2: ever imagine. But let's uh, the brain, My brain is

2:20:47 Speaker 2: the you know, Gary has made studies of the of

2:20:51 Speaker 2: the white matter between the caud ad and the pudamin

2:20:54 Speaker 2: and this white matter that controls communications in the type.

2:21:00 Speaker 2: That level of communication in the brain is very dense

2:21:04 Speaker 2: in like psychics and people who are involved in the

2:21:07 Speaker 2: close encounter.

2:21:08 Speaker 1: Explores people who experience like paranormal stuff too, right.

2:21:12 Speaker 2: Right, So they looked at mine and this individual in

2:21:18 Speaker 2: the Central Intelligence Agency, who has done a numerous he's

2:21:25 Speaker 2: done studies of neurology of unusual brains his whole career,

2:21:31 Speaker 2: reported that it was high normal in terms of the

2:21:36 Speaker 2: density of the white matter, but that the way the

2:21:42 Speaker 2: white matter appeared and the way the connections worked were

2:21:47 Speaker 2: absolutely unique in his experience. He had never seen it

2:21:50 Speaker 2: before like that. I have a copy of that report,

2:21:54 Speaker 2: and I thought to myself when I read that, I thought,

2:21:57 Speaker 2: I remember that need going into the side of my

2:22:00 Speaker 2: head right in the right place to reach that area.

2:22:06 Speaker 2: And I thought to myself, maybe they altered me so

2:22:09 Speaker 2: that I could do this. Do what what I do.

2:22:17 Speaker 2: I engage with them on many different levels and write

2:22:21 Speaker 2: books about this engagement, with the objective of helping in

2:22:29 Speaker 2: the process of advancing us to the point where we

2:22:34 Speaker 2: are used to this enough and knowledgeable enough to where

2:22:40 Speaker 2: at least critical parts of the culture will not experience

2:22:45 Speaker 2: cultural colonization. If they emerge. That's the purpose of my

2:22:51 Speaker 2: life to defeat that problem. And if they do emerge,

2:23:00 Speaker 2: as I say, it's going to be hard, because the

2:23:03 Speaker 2: difficulty of the different relationship with time is going to

2:23:06 Speaker 2: be a very significant difficulty. When they're fully invested in

2:23:11 Speaker 2: a physical body, they're not like that. In other words,

2:23:14 Speaker 2: they can get into the time stream, but then they

2:23:17 Speaker 2: have a lot of limitations apparently, and they can't They

2:23:22 Speaker 2: can't do much inside the time stream, not like they

2:23:24 Speaker 2: can from the outside.

2:23:26 Speaker 1: Inside. They can't do much when they're in here.

2:23:27 Speaker 2: When they can go. We are locked into our bodies. Yes,

2:23:32 Speaker 2: as I said, there's a place back here where you

2:23:34 Speaker 2: can be unlocked, and people like Robert Monroe had methods

2:23:41 Speaker 2: to unlock you. And there are a lot of lots

2:23:47 Speaker 2: of people who teach you how to do out of

2:23:50 Speaker 2: body travel. I've tried home all and failed at all

2:23:53 Speaker 2: of them. The only ones saying, way I can get

2:23:54 Speaker 2: out of my body is if the visitors.

2:23:56 Speaker 1: Take me out.

2:23:57 Speaker 2: Yeah.

2:23:57 Speaker 1: I had a guy here who did a great job

2:24:00 Speaker 1: explaining that stuff, David Morehouse, who was shot in the

2:24:02 Speaker 1: head in the military.

2:24:03 Speaker 2: Yeah.

2:24:03 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then he did remote viewing as part of

2:24:05 Speaker 1: the Stargate and yeah, he had brought in these extensive

2:24:10 Speaker 1: documents and like protocols that they would follow to like

2:24:13 Speaker 1: leave their bodies, and they were given coordinates and time

2:24:17 Speaker 1: timelines basically, and they were able to like project to

2:24:21 Speaker 1: wherever that was in a specific place and time, like

2:24:25 Speaker 1: even going back to like the Titanic. They could put

2:24:27 Speaker 1: themselves in the middle of the Titanic sinking and like

2:24:30 Speaker 1: tell you what was going on anyways, Sorry, that was

2:24:34 Speaker 1: that's just interesting. Yeah, No, nothing good.

2:24:37 Speaker 2: No, the well that you know, that whole program was

2:24:41 Speaker 2: absolutely fascinating. I knew one. I knew a fair amount

2:24:46 Speaker 2: about the program after the fact I didn't and of

2:24:49 Speaker 2: course now I'm known how for half my life, right

2:24:53 Speaker 2: and some of the others. But uh, I, I have

2:25:03 Speaker 2: no idea whether or not that program is still going on.

2:25:06 Speaker 2: It has to be, right, I would think so, and

2:25:09 Speaker 2: I think that it almost certainly is is effective. And

2:25:21 Speaker 2: I know that people have talked here on this show

2:25:25 Speaker 2: about an incident. An incidance is well known on the

2:25:31 Speaker 2: inside of where a remote viewer identified an incident in

2:25:39 Speaker 2: the future involving an attempt by terrorists to spread bacteria

2:25:46 Speaker 2: or viruses or something on the east on the southeastern

2:25:50 Speaker 2: coast of the United States that intercepted by the Coast Guard,

2:25:54 Speaker 2: and apparently that happened. So if they're not doing it anymore,

2:25:59 Speaker 2: if the program has really been closed down, somebody needs

2:26:02 Speaker 2: to go to jail.

2:26:04 Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, No, that's that's definitely worth the money and

2:26:09 Speaker 1: investment to be able to do that kind of.

2:26:10 Speaker 2: Stuff, because the investment is negligible.

2:26:13 Speaker 1: Right exactly. Okay, going back to the October incident, when

2:26:19 Speaker 1: you were in this you got you imagine yourself being

2:26:22 Speaker 1: lifted up above the trees. No, this is December. This

2:26:24 Speaker 1: is December. And you're in there, and then you're sitting

2:26:28 Speaker 1: on a bench. You see these insect things going around,

2:26:30 Speaker 1: like moving around fast in the background. And then this

2:26:33 Speaker 1: one main being that you feel is female, is sitting

2:26:38 Speaker 1: there with its legs up, staring at you. Yeah, and

2:26:42 Speaker 1: is it communicating. It's asking you, how can I help

2:26:44 Speaker 1: you stop screaming?

2:26:46 Speaker 2: No, there was an automatic voice, a machine was saying that.

2:26:49 Speaker 2: Oh so this wasn't inside you. This was no, No,

2:26:51 Speaker 2: that was outside me. Okay, it was a voice. I

2:26:54 Speaker 2: was not in any way prepared to do to lepathy

2:26:57 Speaker 2: at that time. I was too excited and upset to

2:27:00 Speaker 2: even think about that. I couldn't have done it. I

2:27:02 Speaker 2: can do it now fairly easily. But no, not at

2:27:05 Speaker 2: that moment. I didn't even know it existed.

2:27:08 Speaker 1: And this is when they're trying to prepare you to

2:27:11 Speaker 1: They have this tool and they essentially with it.

2:27:15 Speaker 2: Yeah, well what they do is and it's it's it's

2:27:19 Speaker 2: a known thing. It's not it's not a mysterious thing

2:27:21 Speaker 2: from the beyond. It's a it's used to this day

2:27:26 Speaker 2: an animal husbandry. And in those days, they made these

2:27:30 Speaker 2: these devices that would stimulate the nerve that causes an erection.

2:27:34 Speaker 2: And for people who had a rectile dysfunction before viagra,

2:27:38 Speaker 2: they would insert this into this the rectum and turn

2:27:40 Speaker 2: this on. It would create a gentle electrical current and

2:27:44 Speaker 2: the result was an erection. And then the person could

2:27:48 Speaker 2: it could have sex. And as I say, when they're

2:27:57 Speaker 2: getting seemen out of a bull, they do it. Now.

2:27:59 Speaker 2: It's a it's a commonplace tool. It's nothing exotic.

2:28:03 Speaker 1: So they wanted to stream in. They wanted to stick

2:28:05 Speaker 1: a needle in your brain. And then what else did

2:28:07 Speaker 1: they do?

2:28:08 Speaker 2: Send me the hell home? And I woke up the

2:28:11 Speaker 2: next morning all upset, not knowing why.

2:28:14 Speaker 1: And also during the experience, you said you have no

2:28:18 Speaker 1: right to do this, and they said we do. We

2:28:20 Speaker 1: do have a right.

2:28:21 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, What did that mean?

2:28:23 Speaker 1: Yeah? What do you make of that?

2:28:24 Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot of possibilities. Maybe it's on some

2:28:29 Speaker 2: soul level, I don't know, higher level. If so, they

2:28:36 Speaker 2: would have been nice if they'd explain themselves at any level,

2:28:39 Speaker 2: But in any case, they didn't. What the other possibility is,

2:28:42 Speaker 2: what if we did have contact with them back in

2:28:46 Speaker 2: the past. What if the Eisenhower meeting actually did take place.

2:28:50 Speaker 2: What if there was an agreement and they did agree

2:28:54 Speaker 2: to let a certain number of people be be out

2:29:00 Speaker 2: within this way, and I think hybridized the uh there

2:29:07 Speaker 2: would be that would be one of the greatest secrets

2:29:10 Speaker 2: in the United States possessed. And you know, I think

2:29:13 Speaker 2: that's a possibility too.

2:29:15 Speaker 1: That they are cross breeding humans and their own Oh.

2:29:18 Speaker 2: I know they are because they did to me. And

2:29:20 Speaker 2: I met the child in my back in the woods

2:29:25 Speaker 2: behind my.

2:29:25 Speaker 1: House, your own child. I guess he was my child.

2:29:28 Speaker 1: At the time.

2:29:29 Speaker 2: I didn't know what he was, but I'll tell you

2:29:31 Speaker 2: the story. He I was out walking in the woods

2:29:36 Speaker 2: one afternoon in August of it was hot, and this

2:29:42 Speaker 2: was we would leave. We were losing the house. In

2:29:45 Speaker 2: the process of losing the house, and because you know,

2:29:48 Speaker 2: unfortunately for me, the cabin the cabin. Yeah, you a

2:29:52 Speaker 2: writer who's controversial, people will buy. But as soon as

2:29:56 Speaker 2: he becomes a laughing stock, forget it. They're not going

2:29:58 Speaker 2: to buy that anymore. Knocked in. This is before the Internet.

2:30:02 Speaker 2: They're not going to go to bookstore and put down

2:30:04 Speaker 2: money on a book where the clerk's going to.

2:30:06 Speaker 1: Snicker at them.

2:30:07 Speaker 2: That is. And whoever got me turned me into a

2:30:11 Speaker 2: laughing stock over the basically they turned it into the

2:30:15 Speaker 2: rectal probe. It shows up on the first episode of

2:30:19 Speaker 2: South Park as well.

2:30:21 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and after that it spread that was the

2:30:25 Speaker 1: genesis of the anal probe. Your story. Yeah, no one

2:30:27 Speaker 1: ever talked about that before you no.

2:30:29 Speaker 2: Wow, no, my god. And so I've ended up in

2:30:32 Speaker 2: the situation for thirty years of being laughed at from

2:30:35 Speaker 2: being which is an interesting position to be in, believe me,

2:30:39 Speaker 2: especially because it's my publishers felt like that story as

2:30:44 Speaker 2: it spread was destroying my sales, because my sales just

2:30:48 Speaker 2: absolutely dried up. And I wasn't even writing about this anymore,

2:30:51 Speaker 2: and I was having good sales with some of my books,

2:30:54 Speaker 2: and then the next thing, you know, they just start

2:30:55 Speaker 2: to die out, and I ended up with no money

2:30:59 Speaker 2: and no publisher and know where to turn. We had

2:31:03 Speaker 2: to give up the cabin. We didn't. It was sold

2:31:07 Speaker 2: out of bankruptcy. You know. We were just destroyed, absolutely,

2:31:10 Speaker 2: and and I had to borrow money from friends to eat.

2:31:12 Speaker 1: At one point. It was horrible. Yeah, and.

2:31:17 Speaker 2: We so in any case, where were.

2:31:22 Speaker 1: We You were saying that you were walking through the

2:31:24 Speaker 1: woods and you had a reason to believe that you

2:31:25 Speaker 1: saw like a hybrid child of yours.

2:31:27 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, okay. So I'm walking in the woods and

2:31:33 Speaker 2: behind my house there was a wooded area, then a

2:31:37 Speaker 2: cleared area going up a hill with a lot of

2:31:40 Speaker 2: rather rocky and then beyond that some pitch pines. And

2:31:43 Speaker 2: there's this boy sitting under a tree, right, you know,

2:31:47 Speaker 2: fifty feet from the pitch pines, smoking.

2:31:48 Speaker 1: Cigarettes, smoking a cigarette.

2:31:50 Speaker 2: A boy, A boy looked he looked like a boy

2:31:53 Speaker 2: from a distance anyway, And he was a boy, I

2:31:56 Speaker 2: found out later, but I'll get to that. So I

2:32:00 Speaker 2: think to myself, what in the world, what's a kid

2:32:02 Speaker 2: doing out here? And I figured, well, I understand he's

2:32:05 Speaker 2: out here, so he wants to smoke, and he's not

2:32:08 Speaker 2: going to be smoking at home. And it's not a

2:32:10 Speaker 2: It looks like a ten year old or twelve year

2:32:12 Speaker 2: old maybe, so that I understood. So I thought to myself,

2:32:16 Speaker 2: But he's too close to those pitch pines that if

2:32:18 Speaker 2: those things catch fire, this whole, this whole area is

2:32:21 Speaker 2: going to go up like a like a torch, because

2:32:24 Speaker 2: pitch pines are full of pitch. That's why they called

2:32:26 Speaker 2: pitch pines. And you light one on fire, and.

2:32:28 Speaker 1: Whoosh, oh wow, it just explodes.

2:32:31 Speaker 2: So I walk over to him and I start to

2:32:36 Speaker 2: say I'd like you to move, move, or words to

2:32:39 Speaker 2: that effect, and I realize as I'm looking down at him,

2:32:43 Speaker 2: he's he's like a weathered child. I know that now

2:32:49 Speaker 2: because he didn't have adequate hydration and he smoked all

2:32:53 Speaker 2: the time, all the time. And I got to know

2:32:57 Speaker 2: more about him over the next few weeks, you may

2:32:59 Speaker 2: be sure. And he makes this. He's looking straight ahead,

2:33:03 Speaker 2: he doesn't look at me, and he goes, and I

2:33:07 Speaker 2: think to myself, it was more menacing than that. I

2:33:10 Speaker 2: think to myself, I'm significantly far back in these woods

2:33:16 Speaker 2: and I didn't like that sound, and I don't like

2:33:18 Speaker 2: this kid at all. I'm getting out of here, and

2:33:20 Speaker 2: I turn around and go back to the house. I

2:33:22 Speaker 2: tell Anne that there's this kid out there, and she

2:33:24 Speaker 2: says we should call the sheriff, and I think about that,

2:33:30 Speaker 2: and then I think, I don't want to call the

2:33:32 Speaker 2: sheriff because people around here are very sensitive and if

2:33:35 Speaker 2: I call the sheriff on one of their children, they're

2:33:38 Speaker 2: not going to like it. Whether the children's doing right,

2:33:41 Speaker 2: child is doing right or wrong. Because I've already got

2:33:43 Speaker 2: a horrible.

2:33:44 Speaker 1: Reputation in the area.

2:33:46 Speaker 2: Some people who had done been clearing some poison ivy

2:33:51 Speaker 2: out of our trees had one of the grays walk

2:33:55 Speaker 2: across the road in front of him, and then they

2:34:00 Speaker 2: had these snakes come up around their feet and stuff.

2:34:03 Speaker 2: And the foreman came up to me and said, missus

2:34:06 Speaker 2: Treebert were leiaving those people of yours are running around

2:34:09 Speaker 2: out there, and we don't want anything to do with them.

2:34:11 Speaker 2: And they left. They wouldn't even take any money from me,

2:34:15 Speaker 2: and they also didn't finish the job. So that kind

2:34:19 Speaker 2: of story was getting around the neighborhood, and people weren't

2:34:22 Speaker 2: happy with that, you know, they were not pleased, and

2:34:26 Speaker 2: so I didn't want to have any trouble with anyone

2:34:29 Speaker 2: but calling a sheriff on their kid, so I let

2:34:33 Speaker 2: that go. The next thing we know, we're smelling cigarette

2:34:39 Speaker 2: smoke in the house and the night, you know, warm nights,

2:34:43 Speaker 2: druinses are open and I'm thinking to myself, is.

2:34:50 Speaker 1: That kid out there? And we begin to find places

2:34:52 Speaker 1: where he has been standing, and there'll be hundreds.

2:34:55 Speaker 2: Of cigarette butts. You know, it was twenty years later.

2:34:58 Speaker 2: We could have taken some of these cigarette buts and

2:35:00 Speaker 2: gotten them DNA tested. But that wasn't real. In those days,

2:35:03 Speaker 2: you couldn't do that. So I said to Ann, he's

2:35:08 Speaker 2: out here, and we took We took a lovely hike.

2:35:10 Speaker 2: We looked like to hike up to this lake up

2:35:13 Speaker 2: in the hills, beautiful and on the way out in

2:35:16 Speaker 2: the woods, three or four miles out in the woods.

2:35:19 Speaker 2: Were going along and we find one of these places

2:35:21 Speaker 2: where he's been standing, and we just went home. We

2:35:24 Speaker 2: realized those woods weren't ours anymore. That we knew by

2:35:28 Speaker 2: this time that there was something real weird going on.

2:35:31 Speaker 2: We liked to skinny dip at night, and our pool

2:35:34 Speaker 2: was very private, so no problem skinny dipping at night,

2:35:38 Speaker 2: and we were skinny dip frequently. One night after he

2:35:44 Speaker 2: started in those woods, we were skinny dipping. And remember

2:35:47 Speaker 2: the woods behind the house, there was a deck with

2:35:50 Speaker 2: a pool in it, and then thick brush, and under

2:35:53 Speaker 2: that brush were behind that brush were tall trees. So

2:35:56 Speaker 2: behind the brush there was a clear area that you

2:35:59 Speaker 2: couldn't see into from the deck. And suddenly there's a

2:36:04 Speaker 2: sound of someone running up and down in that clear area,

2:36:06 Speaker 2: breaking sticks and gasping. He could not speak. He could

2:36:10 Speaker 2: only gasp and make mouth noises. I found out later,

2:36:15 Speaker 2: and we realized it's him, and he's upset about the

2:36:20 Speaker 2: idea that we are in this pool naked, and so

2:36:27 Speaker 2: we went back in the house. We didn't feel comfortable

2:36:29 Speaker 2: anymore outside because we obviously weren't alone, and this kid

2:36:33 Speaker 2: was upset, and it was very weird, and we both

2:36:38 Speaker 2: knew by this time we were not this is no

2:36:40 Speaker 2: normal child, because a normal child, no one, no human

2:36:44 Speaker 2: being can smoke that much and live. And no normal

2:36:47 Speaker 2: child is in your woods all the time and never

2:36:50 Speaker 2: seems to be anywhere else. So we'd lived with him there,

2:36:56 Speaker 2: coming up to the house, and it was not pleasant.

2:37:01 Speaker 2: And he came into the house a few times, and

2:37:06 Speaker 2: he slept a few nights in one of the bedrooms,

2:37:11 Speaker 2: and we would find the bedroom the bed unmade like

2:37:15 Speaker 2: someone had slept in the morning, and the cigarette smoked everywhere.

2:37:18 Speaker 2: It was not pleasant. So was he's.

2:37:23 Speaker 1: Smoking in your house?

2:37:25 Speaker 2: He smoked in the bedroom, Yeah, but apparently with the

2:37:27 Speaker 2: door closed, because we didn't notice it while it was happening.

2:37:31 Speaker 1: So who is this kid?

2:37:32 Speaker 2: Well, and get to that. Give me some time. We

2:37:34 Speaker 2: got some time, don't we yeah, okay, all right. We

2:37:40 Speaker 2: lose the house October of that year. I guess it

2:37:44 Speaker 2: was ninety six or ninety seven. It was so awful

2:37:48 Speaker 2: I can't I can't even it's hard to remember exactly

2:37:51 Speaker 2: the year. And we leave for the last time. I'm

2:37:56 Speaker 2: thinking I will never go back again. It turns out,

2:38:00 Speaker 2: by the way, there's a sort of semi happy ending.

2:38:02 Speaker 2: The house is now owned by a couple who love

2:38:05 Speaker 2: my work and love me, and I get to go

2:38:08 Speaker 2: back a lot. Oh wow.

2:38:10 Speaker 1: And I get to go back, and I do. I

2:38:12 Speaker 1: am able to connect.

2:38:13 Speaker 2: With the visitors at the cabin, and I can explain

2:38:16 Speaker 2: why later if you want me to better than I

2:38:20 Speaker 2: can other places, more physically. So we.

2:38:30 Speaker 1: Leave.

2:38:31 Speaker 2: On the way down to Texas. We're going to stand

2:38:36 Speaker 2: at condo in Texas that was the last thing we own,

2:38:40 Speaker 2: if my mother lived in it. It's a little condo

2:38:42 Speaker 2: on a street. It has a screened in porch, and

2:38:46 Speaker 2: it's two bedroom, little tiny two bedroom condo, and a

2:38:49 Speaker 2: little garden, and then there's the street. Okay, that'll be

2:38:52 Speaker 2: important in a minute. Okay. I noticed this car, this

2:38:56 Speaker 2: old ratty car, driving behind us in thenumber of times,

2:39:01 Speaker 2: and the thing about it. That made me notice it

2:39:03 Speaker 2: was it had those lights that glowed without shining, and

2:39:08 Speaker 2: I thought, geez, could they be following me in a car?

2:39:13 Speaker 2: Because I know those lights. I've seen them before. I'd

2:39:15 Speaker 2: seen him as a child, and I knew they were

2:39:19 Speaker 2: that kind of light indicated the presence of the visitors,

2:39:23 Speaker 2: that the car that was no ordinary car. So we

2:39:27 Speaker 2: get to the house. I don't say anything about it

2:39:29 Speaker 2: to Anne because she's rather happy to be leaving this behind.

2:39:33 Speaker 2: As you may imagine, we get to the condo move in.

2:39:38 Speaker 2: A couple nights later, I smell cigarette smoke. The situation

2:39:42 Speaker 2: with the condo is there's a screened in porch that

2:39:48 Speaker 2: the living room looks out onto, and there's also a

2:39:52 Speaker 2: French door from the bedroom it ends and then there's

2:39:55 Speaker 2: a cul de sac, and that the cul de sac

2:39:59 Speaker 2: is right where the head of the bed is on

2:40:01 Speaker 2: the other side of that wall. Then there's a small alley,

2:40:04 Speaker 2: and immediately cross the alley is another condo. That's the situation.

2:40:10 Speaker 2: So I go out on the screened in porch and

2:40:15 Speaker 2: notice immediately movement. Someone goes around the corner. It's him,

2:40:21 Speaker 2: He's followed us, and I find cigarette butts out there.

2:40:26 Speaker 2: That's kind of cigarettes but brand. Yeah, I have no idea.

2:40:30 Speaker 2: I don't like cigarettes. I never touched him. They disgusted me.

2:40:33 Speaker 2: I'm curious. Well, I don't blame you. Probably meant all

2:40:37 Speaker 2: the way he smoked new ports. I don't know. I

2:40:41 Speaker 2: don't have any idea. I didn't I was not I

2:40:46 Speaker 2: was too fixated on the fact that he was there

2:40:49 Speaker 2: to think about things like that. And then the people

2:40:54 Speaker 2: in the condo can complain about him doing things to them.

2:40:59 Speaker 2: He's he's a feral child, and they call social services,

2:41:03 Speaker 2: and social service people come looking for him. And then

2:41:11 Speaker 2: I've become aware of the fact that he seems to

2:41:13 Speaker 2: be living in the condo immediately behind ours. Oh. I

2:41:18 Speaker 2: installed a motion sensitive light in the cul de sac,

2:41:22 Speaker 2: and one night he's there, and every time he moves,

2:41:26 Speaker 2: the motion sensitive light comes on, and he's gasping and

2:41:28 Speaker 2: going on, and so he's pretty pissed off, obviously. At

2:41:32 Speaker 2: the same time, though, what's happening is I've noticed that

2:41:36 Speaker 2: these two men, these men were not of this world.

2:41:40 Speaker 2: I'll tell you why. I know that. I was going

2:41:44 Speaker 2: down to the drug store one morning to get some

2:41:47 Speaker 2: stuff that's right on the street corner, and I walked

2:41:51 Speaker 2: into the drug store and it was very quiet. Everyone

2:41:56 Speaker 2: was just standing there except for one guy. And this

2:41:59 Speaker 2: is back in the day when smoking materials were all out.

2:42:02 Speaker 2: Anyone could pick him up. This guy is putting cigarette

2:42:07 Speaker 2: cartons of cigarettes and tobacco and stuff in a big

2:42:10 Speaker 2: shopping bag right in front of everybody. The clerks are

2:42:14 Speaker 2: just standing there. The people aren't shopping, they're just standing there.

2:42:18 Speaker 2: They're all standing there. And the guy turns around and

2:42:21 Speaker 2: walks past me and gives me this familiar kind of

2:42:27 Speaker 2: knowing look, like we're both on the same side, and

2:42:32 Speaker 2: you know, you can see what I'm doing, but none

2:42:34 Speaker 2: they can't. And you're not going to tell anybody, are you?

2:42:38 Speaker 2: And he leaves, and the whole place comes back to life.

2:42:42 Speaker 2: The whole place. I saw this with my own eyes,

2:42:46 Speaker 2: So I thought, screw I remember what I was getting.

2:42:49 Speaker 2: I get the hell out of there and went back

2:42:51 Speaker 2: to the house and told Anne, And so then we

2:42:56 Speaker 2: realize they're living there. They're behind they're in the condo

2:42:59 Speaker 2: behind us, And I call the and it's all this

2:43:02 Speaker 2: ruckus in the in the place because this weird kid

2:43:05 Speaker 2: is there.

2:43:07 Speaker 1: And so I.

2:43:09 Speaker 2: Call the management company and they say, you know, it's

2:43:14 Speaker 2: a condo and so not a co op. So then

2:43:17 Speaker 2: who's living where? And they say, well, you'll have to

2:43:21 Speaker 2: talk to the owner. And they gave me the owner

2:43:24 Speaker 2: of the condo's number in Houston, so I call him

2:43:27 Speaker 2: and he says, there's nobody living there. I use that

2:43:31 Speaker 2: when I come up to San Antonio to do business.

2:43:35 Speaker 2: I said, well, I'm sorry, there are three people living there,

2:43:37 Speaker 2: two men and a boy. And the next thing I know,

2:43:43 Speaker 2: the condo has a eviction notice on it from the sheriff.

2:43:48 Speaker 2: And the two guys are going from door to door

2:43:51 Speaker 2: trying to sell a man's furniture to all the rest

2:43:54 Speaker 2: of us who all know what's going on, And so

2:43:57 Speaker 2: then they get evicted. In the morning of the the

2:44:01 Speaker 2: boy comes blasting around the corner. I'm out in the

2:44:03 Speaker 2: garden with a cigarette in the center of his mouth

2:44:07 Speaker 2: like this, stalking off down the middle of the street.

2:44:11 Speaker 2: And I think to myself, he doesn't even know how

2:44:13 Speaker 2: to smoke. I think this, and he grabs a cigarette

2:44:16 Speaker 2: out of his mouth and holds it to his side

2:44:19 Speaker 2: as if he'd heard it like a voice, which I'm

2:44:21 Speaker 2: sure he had. Now I have studied this carefully this

2:44:25 Speaker 2: whole business of this, all this smoking, because this is

2:44:30 Speaker 2: unusual and it's these are human beings. And I believe

2:44:36 Speaker 2: there are two possibilities here. One is, if you will remember,

2:44:41 Speaker 2: in Native American culture and to this day, in cultures

2:44:44 Speaker 2: in the Amazon, tobacco was used to communicate with another

2:44:48 Speaker 2: level of reality, with the spirit world. There's other powerful

2:44:51 Speaker 2: drugs that do it better, but tobacco was what was

2:44:54 Speaker 2: used by the Native Americans. And I would suspect that

2:44:57 Speaker 2: this was wild tobacco and probably extremely as is the

2:45:01 Speaker 2: tobacco that's still used in the Amazon to do this

2:45:04 Speaker 2: extremely strong. Okay, So that would explain why he had

2:45:09 Speaker 2: to smoke so much, because he you know, the regular

2:45:11 Speaker 2: cigarettes are not going to have that level of nicotine

2:45:13 Speaker 2: in him. If that's the correct answer. The other possibility is,

2:45:18 Speaker 2: if you read about schizophrenia, you find the schizophrenic. Some

2:45:23 Speaker 2: schizophrenic smoke a great deal, and they smoke a great

2:45:26 Speaker 2: deal not because it quiets the voices in their heads,

2:45:30 Speaker 2: but because it makes them calmer in relation to the voices.

2:45:35 Speaker 2: It calms them down so the voices don't bother them

2:45:38 Speaker 2: as much. Now, what if you had telepathy and you

2:45:41 Speaker 2: were hearing the voices of the people around you, and

2:45:43 Speaker 2: you couldn't turn it off. That might be a motive

2:45:46 Speaker 2: for constantly smoking, because you would be like a schizophrenic

2:45:50 Speaker 2: whose voices were real. The cacophony would be appalling, I'm sure,

2:45:55 Speaker 2: and that that could be another reason for it. But

2:45:58 Speaker 2: it's real, you understand, talking about something real. And this

2:46:02 Speaker 2: is very hard for people to put their heads around,

2:46:04 Speaker 2: because you're talking to a guy who's been living with

2:46:06 Speaker 2: this for years. I'm living in this world and in

2:46:10 Speaker 2: another world at the same time.

2:46:12 Speaker 1: And everybody else saw this kid too, well.

2:46:15 Speaker 2: I don't know who else saw him, but well, my

2:46:18 Speaker 2: wife certainly saw. I mean she sure did, and my

2:46:21 Speaker 2: wife saw him. I'm guessing people in the condos saw him,

2:46:27 Speaker 2: or we wouldn't have gotten our door knocked on by

2:46:28 Speaker 2: Social Services asking if he was our kid, which is

2:46:32 Speaker 2: which happened.

2:46:32 Speaker 1: And your theory is that this could have been the

2:46:35 Speaker 1: hybrid I think alien child that you had.

2:46:38 Speaker 2: I think he was my child, and I think that

2:46:42 Speaker 2: an extraction may have been something to do with him.

2:46:45 Speaker 1: So if these beings pulled you up into their ship

2:46:47 Speaker 1: and extracted your seamen to impregnate an alien being and

2:46:53 Speaker 1: create a hybrid child. Why would they just abandon the child.

2:46:56 Speaker 2: Because he didn't work out There were something wrong with him, obviously,

2:47:02 Speaker 2: and so they just left him to me in my

2:47:04 Speaker 2: woods without even so much as a by your leave.

2:47:08 Speaker 2: I think that's exactly what happened.

2:47:12 Speaker 1: That's dark.

2:47:14 Speaker 2: Well, December of nineteen eighty five, then nineteen ninety six,

2:47:19 Speaker 2: ninety seven, he shows up eleven years later, and he

2:47:22 Speaker 2: looked like an eleven year old kid. I mean, what

2:47:25 Speaker 2: am I supposed to think? And he looked a little

2:47:27 Speaker 2: bit like me, and said, and I was horrified at

2:47:30 Speaker 2: the time. I got mad at her. I said, he

2:47:32 Speaker 2: doesn't look anything like me, and she just didn't say anything,

2:47:35 Speaker 2: but she was right, he did. And he looked more

2:47:37 Speaker 2: like one of my grandfathers, one of my Streevir grandfathers.

2:47:43 Speaker 1: So we got that.

2:47:44 Speaker 2: And if it's it's not just me, there's god knows

2:47:48 Speaker 2: how many people are having eggs and taken from their bodies, right, and.

2:47:54 Speaker 1: So the ones that don't work, they just drop him

2:47:56 Speaker 1: off in the woods. Good luck.

2:47:57 Speaker 2: Well, they dropped him off in the woods. I can't

2:47:59 Speaker 2: say that about others because I don't know.

2:48:01 Speaker 1: And what do you think they do with the ones

2:48:02 Speaker 1: that do work.

2:48:06 Speaker 2: I suspect we might find out sooner or later, but

2:48:10 Speaker 2: right now I don't know. I can't answer that question.

2:48:12 Speaker 2: I don't want to answer questions. I don't like to speculate.

2:48:16 Speaker 2: I've got enough weird stuff to talk about without speculating.

2:48:19 Speaker 1: Do you know you've heard of David Huggins?

2:48:20 Speaker 2: Yes?

2:48:21 Speaker 1: What do you make of him? Have you ever met him? No?

2:48:25 Speaker 2: Well, I don't like to talk. Well, you tell me

2:48:26 Speaker 2: what you make of Dave. Dave. You asked me a

2:48:28 Speaker 2: question about David Huggins.

2:48:29 Speaker 1: I watched his documentary Love and Saucers, and I found

2:48:32 Speaker 1: it absolutely fascinating. I don't know what to make I

2:48:37 Speaker 1: know Jeffrey Kreipel met him, he was in the documentary. Yeah,

2:48:41 Speaker 1: he seems like he truly genuinely believes what he says

2:48:45 Speaker 1: about his story of this woman who looks like a

2:48:49 Speaker 1: half alien, half woman. She has long hair. Yeah, he

2:48:52 Speaker 1: doesn't say that she had looked anything like the three

2:48:54 Speaker 1: foot being with the big head, but she did say

2:48:56 Speaker 1: it had big eyes, but it was far more human,

2:48:59 Speaker 1: like a Norse looking human woman with blonde hair. I believe, yes,

2:49:04 Speaker 1: And she had sex with them, and then she came

2:49:06 Speaker 1: back and then she showed him the children that she

2:49:10 Speaker 1: bore from him. He met the children, he drew these

2:49:13 Speaker 1: beautiful paintings of these women with Okay, the story is fantastical,

2:49:19 Speaker 1: and it sounds like something that you could laugh at, right,

2:49:22 Speaker 1: or you can just say, I got what a crazy

2:49:24 Speaker 1: cuckoo guy this is? Well, it seems to be very

2:49:28 Speaker 1: similar to a lot of the things you're saying.

2:49:30 Speaker 2: Well, the mind becomes it gets a need to connect

2:49:36 Speaker 2: the dots. In other words, there may be less to

2:49:41 Speaker 2: the actual story than he's telling. But I will say this,

2:49:45 Speaker 2: I know David believes every word of it, and I

2:49:48 Speaker 2: also would think that the part of the encounter is true,

2:49:54 Speaker 2: and at least some children are true. And the reason

2:49:57 Speaker 2: I think that is I turned one of those women

2:50:00 Speaker 2: down when they tried to have sex with me.

2:50:02 Speaker 1: So did you never had any like physical intercourse as.

2:50:08 Speaker 2: I did have?

2:50:09 Speaker 1: Oh? You did?

2:50:10 Speaker 2: I certainly did. It was it was must have been.

2:50:14 Speaker 1: In a eighty eight, eighty nine maybe, And how did

2:50:20 Speaker 1: this happen?

2:50:20 Speaker 2: Okay, I'll tell you the whole story. I woke up

2:50:27 Speaker 2: in a state of full erection, under lying on my

2:50:34 Speaker 2: back with a female whom we got to know quite well,

2:50:39 Speaker 2: I'm not. She never sat down in a living room

2:50:43 Speaker 2: and chatted with She's in the house a lot. I

2:50:46 Speaker 2: tell you more stories about her.

2:50:47 Speaker 1: Because this is the main female entity you do normally see.

2:50:50 Speaker 2: I don't know if it's the same look.

2:50:52 Speaker 1: I can't test similar enough.

2:50:53 Speaker 2: Yeah, it looked similar, only she was she was somewhat

2:50:57 Speaker 2: human from one thing. She had sexual organs. And the

2:51:01 Speaker 2: little ones that you usually see don't have sexual No,

2:51:04 Speaker 2: they're not, because they're they're grown. They're not born, And

2:51:12 Speaker 2: at least that's what I would assume, because if they

2:51:15 Speaker 2: don't have sexual organs, obviously they're not having sex and

2:51:17 Speaker 2: not having babies. But they're there, therefore they must be grown.

2:51:21 Speaker 2: So anyway, this is what happened. I wake up and

2:51:29 Speaker 2: I'm engaged in sex already with this individual. It's well along.

2:51:35 Speaker 2: I look up and I cannot see the face. The

2:51:38 Speaker 2: face is blacked out, but the body is a female body,

2:51:43 Speaker 2: breasts with very small but existent breasts, thin arms, and

2:51:51 Speaker 2: legs that were human like. It's a half human, half alien,

2:51:55 Speaker 2: half a gray human. Person was filled with people, including

2:52:04 Speaker 2: The room is filled with people, including one of them

2:52:08 Speaker 2: who I recognize. He's an intelligence officer. Whom I've known

2:52:12 Speaker 2: at that point for years, and I have at that

2:52:18 Speaker 2: moment the most extraordinary experience of sex I've ever had

2:52:22 Speaker 2: in my life. Despite the situation, it was brain bending

2:52:27 Speaker 2: and terribly upsetting to me because I was a married

2:52:30 Speaker 2: man and I'm very chaste. I'm not going to be

2:52:33 Speaker 2: comfortable fooling around recently someone.

2:52:38 Speaker 1: It was so good about it.

2:52:41 Speaker 2: It was just incredibly intense, and it was like a

2:52:44 Speaker 2: Kundalini experience. It was so intense. It was just my

2:52:47 Speaker 2: whole body. I contact, not with my but with my

2:52:51 Speaker 2: entire body. It was brain bending. I was I'll never

2:52:54 Speaker 2: forget it.

2:52:55 Speaker 1: Wow.

2:52:56 Speaker 2: And I told Annie about it immediately because I had to.

2:52:59 Speaker 2: But the truth was I came awfully close with her

2:53:01 Speaker 2: a number of times because one thing about my wife

2:53:04 Speaker 2: is she knew what she was doing in bed. So anyway,

2:53:13 Speaker 2: the next morning I wake up, I'm back in my bed.

2:53:16 Speaker 2: I'm obviously I have had sex, and Annie has them.

2:53:18 Speaker 2: It's quite clear the way I look and feel and smell.

2:53:23 Speaker 2: And I tell her the whole story immediately, of course,

2:53:26 Speaker 2: because you know, there's no way, I mean, if I'm

2:53:29 Speaker 2: going to fool around, I sure as hell. I mean

2:53:31 Speaker 2: I'm going to fool around with anyone, because I really

2:53:33 Speaker 2: love my wife, and you know, she's the only one,

2:53:36 Speaker 2: the only woman exide from her that I've ever even

2:53:38 Speaker 2: had sex with.

2:53:39 Speaker 1: I'm he's in the cabin, by the way.

2:53:41 Speaker 2: In the cabin, yeah, in the old cabin in New York,

2:53:44 Speaker 2: in New York. Yeah. So I think to myself about

2:53:47 Speaker 2: the guy, and you know, he was an intelligence office.

2:53:51 Speaker 2: He's not in the CIA, is in another agency. But

2:53:55 Speaker 2: as I say, I've known him a long time for

2:53:58 Speaker 2: other reasons, nothing to do with this. And I thought,

2:54:03 Speaker 2: what the hell if did.

2:54:05 Speaker 1: I remember that or not?

2:54:06 Speaker 2: And I didn't know how to talk to him about it,

2:54:09 Speaker 2: because you know, I couldn't very well say to someone

2:54:12 Speaker 2: who knew essentially nothing about this, hey, were you watching

2:54:14 Speaker 2: me have sex with an alien in my But he guess.

2:54:17 Speaker 1: During he did know about the visitors, though right he

2:54:19 Speaker 1: may have. Why would you be involved with intelligence if

2:54:22 Speaker 1: it wasn't about this?

2:54:24 Speaker 2: You know, as a writer in the old days, were

2:54:27 Speaker 2: you were called upon to to They wanted you to

2:54:31 Speaker 2: go places where a writer could be going without suspicion

2:54:34 Speaker 2: during the Cold War and report back on what you saw.

2:54:38 Speaker 1: And they were using you as a spy.

2:54:40 Speaker 2: Not a spy exactly, but an agent. Oh no, and yeah, no,

2:54:45 Speaker 2: I guess you were recruited. I was recruited. Yeah, I

2:54:48 Speaker 2: was recruited when I was at school in England, and

2:54:52 Speaker 2: I did a few things.

2:54:52 Speaker 1: I mean not much.

2:54:53 Speaker 2: I did a few things when I was in for

2:54:55 Speaker 2: the sex.

2:54:56 Speaker 1: No further, you see I in England. This is an

2:54:59 Speaker 1: amazing detail till you left out.

2:55:01 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean it's not an amazing detail. It's

2:55:04 Speaker 2: just how many writers did it in those days.

2:55:07 Speaker 1: Many. So you woke up, you had this experience of

2:55:09 Speaker 1: having intercourse, amazing intercourse with this female. Guys there, and

2:55:14 Speaker 1: this guy's in the background watching right.

2:55:16 Speaker 2: Now as life unfolds. It turns out he's heavily involved

2:55:23 Speaker 2: in this visitor stuff. And I think to myself, should

2:55:27 Speaker 2: I ask him about it? So I asked him. I've

2:55:31 Speaker 2: asked him a few times if you ever been to

2:55:32 Speaker 2: my cabin? He always says no. And I didn't know

2:55:38 Speaker 2: what to make of that, because in fact, people can

2:55:40 Speaker 2: do things. Now, I think my father might have been

2:55:42 Speaker 2: such a person for the visitors that they don't remember.

2:55:47 Speaker 2: And I probably have that in my life too. I

2:55:49 Speaker 2: think everyone who's cone I think they control the stream

2:55:52 Speaker 2: of your memory when it comes to them. Okay, they

2:55:55 Speaker 2: don't probably care about the rest of it that they

2:55:57 Speaker 2: control that, Okay. So anyway, here is what then happens.

2:56:07 Speaker 2: Fast forward thirty years. I meet a guy from Romania

2:56:14 Speaker 2: who seeks me out. He turns out we have mutual

2:56:17 Speaker 2: friends in California. And the mutual friend says that he

2:56:22 Speaker 2: wants to meet me, and I say, sure, I'm very available.

2:56:26 Speaker 2: People want to meet me if if they don't talk

2:56:29 Speaker 2: too long. If they talk to me too long, I'll

2:56:32 Speaker 2: turn it off. But I'm open. I'm not a closed door.

2:56:37 Speaker 2: I'm not a celebrity. I don't think of myself that way.

2:56:40 Speaker 2: I'm a guy's had a lot of weird things happen,

2:56:43 Speaker 2: and I write about him. That's my life. And so anyway,

2:56:49 Speaker 2: I meet the guy. He's a very nice man and

2:56:52 Speaker 2: incredibly brilliant. He smokes, spokes, spokes, he speaks like five languages,

2:56:59 Speaker 2: and he is a graduate of MIT, and so you know,

2:57:06 Speaker 2: he's obviously way up there mentally. And he says, this

2:57:10 Speaker 2: is why I want to meet you. I had an

2:57:14 Speaker 2: experience when I was a boy. I was in a

2:57:18 Speaker 2: motel at home in Romania, and it became completely dark.

2:57:25 Speaker 2: I couldn't see anything, and I know it has something

2:57:32 Speaker 2: to do with them, the aliens, the Grays, and I

2:57:39 Speaker 2: think he may have added, I'm not sure he did. No,

2:57:43 Speaker 2: I don't think he said this. And I want to

2:57:46 Speaker 2: know if you can help me in any way with it.

2:57:49 Speaker 2: All I remember is being told something. And when I

2:57:56 Speaker 2: came out of it, I had underlined a name in

2:58:00 Speaker 2: a detective novel I was reading, and I was told

2:58:06 Speaker 2: that this man knew something that he had been told

2:58:11 Speaker 2: he was never tell to anyone. And I said, well,

2:58:16 Speaker 2: what's the name. It's the name of the intelligence officer

2:58:20 Speaker 2: who was in there that room thirty years before.

2:58:25 Speaker 1: WHOA And this.

2:58:26 Speaker 2: Man, this gentleman is totally alive, and you know he'll

2:58:30 Speaker 2: tell you the story himself alive today, absolutely no.

2:58:33 Speaker 1: Both of them are.

2:58:35 Speaker 2: And the officer either doesn't remember it or will not

2:58:38 Speaker 2: say I don't know which. But he has been heavily

2:58:41 Speaker 2: involved in this whole thing for years and he was there.

2:58:51 Speaker 1: That's kind of bizarre. That's kind of hard to process, Like,

2:58:54 Speaker 1: what do you mean, what do you what is your

2:58:56 Speaker 1: I know you don't want to speculate on things, but no,

2:58:58 Speaker 1: what do you make of it? What do you make

2:59:00 Speaker 1: Do you think he Do you think he is involved

2:59:01 Speaker 1: with them somehow? Do you think hybrid?

2:59:03 Speaker 2: Or I know he's not a hybrid. If he's a hybrid,

2:59:07 Speaker 2: they got work to do. No, he's a wonderful guy.

2:59:11 Speaker 2: I think he's a marvelous man and I like him

2:59:15 Speaker 2: very much. We've been friends a long time now. And

2:59:20 Speaker 2: the young man, the Rumanian guy, is also a wonderful

2:59:22 Speaker 2: man and brilliant. They both are. So you know, these

2:59:27 Speaker 2: are all good people. And you know, people like to hate,

2:59:30 Speaker 2: and you know Intelligence Officer Whitley Streeber involves Cee. I

2:59:34 Speaker 2: hate him forever, forget it. This is a more complex

2:59:38 Speaker 2: world than that. Yeah, it's a bigger world in a

2:59:40 Speaker 2: more complex world, and we have to do better. We

2:59:43 Speaker 2: have to get away from the believe it or don't

2:59:46 Speaker 2: believe it, hate, love, all of that and look at

2:59:50 Speaker 2: the whole thing in a much more objective way. Yes,

2:59:54 Speaker 2: I've had entanglement with the intelligence community for a lot

2:59:58 Speaker 2: of my life. I come from a family that did,

3:00:01 Speaker 2: so that's quite natural. I have never done anything that

3:00:07 Speaker 2: I would be ashamed of.

3:00:09 Speaker 1: There was another experience you explained in Communion about being

3:00:12 Speaker 1: in Europe. I believe you were in a hotel with

3:00:15 Speaker 1: a woman and you guys.

3:00:18 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that was.

3:00:20 Speaker 1: What was that? God? But you left a part out

3:00:23 Speaker 1: of out of communion. There was something you wrote about

3:00:26 Speaker 1: in a different story where you guys ended up in

3:00:28 Speaker 1: the Vatican.

3:00:30 Speaker 2: Yes, we did you want hit story?

3:00:33 Speaker 1: Yeah? What's this one on? This is wild?

3:00:36 Speaker 2: Okay, I'm traveling in Europe. I'm a young guy. I'm

3:00:42 Speaker 2: basically like as I said earlier, I was very interested

3:00:46 Speaker 2: in girls. It turned out to be very chaste, but

3:00:50 Speaker 2: that's another story. So I meet a girl on the

3:00:53 Speaker 2: train in Italy going to Italy, and we chat. We

3:00:59 Speaker 2: both decided to off in Florence. She's going to meet

3:01:01 Speaker 2: friends in Florence. She's in the arts world, and.

3:01:07 Speaker 1: We have.

3:01:11 Speaker 2: We go to share a Penzioni and we make out

3:01:15 Speaker 2: and stuff. We do not make love, but we make

3:01:17 Speaker 2: out and we have a lot of fun. Actually, I

3:01:19 Speaker 2: meet her friends and they're all art students and there's

3:01:22 Speaker 2: a lot of stuff being done at you FITZI because

3:01:26 Speaker 2: all of the paintings had to be taken upstairs because

3:01:29 Speaker 2: there had been a flood on the po and they're

3:01:33 Speaker 2: being brought back down and I'm involved in that. It's

3:01:36 Speaker 2: really a lot of fun. And so then we go

3:01:38 Speaker 2: on to Rome and everything's fine. We get in another

3:01:43 Speaker 2: PENZIONI and you know, we have no money on I mean,

3:01:45 Speaker 2: so we're really living very rough, but having loads of fun.

3:01:50 Speaker 2: And we go to the Vatican. I have no idea

3:01:53 Speaker 2: who this girl is. Basically, I know her name, our

3:01:56 Speaker 2: first name. I don't even know her last name. Yeah,

3:01:58 Speaker 2: actually I do. I remember her last name now and so,

3:02:03 Speaker 2: but I know nothing about her except that she's from

3:02:05 Speaker 2: Ireland and she's English Irish. In other words, she's an

3:02:08 Speaker 2: English person who lives in Ireland. In their few I

3:02:11 Speaker 2: guess from northern Ireland.

3:02:13 Speaker 1: And go to the.

3:02:18 Speaker 2: Where we go to the Vatican, and typical of me,

3:02:22 Speaker 2: I managed to get myself lost in the in the

3:02:25 Speaker 2: catacombs under the Vatican. I'm the only person.

3:02:30 Speaker 1: I know who could make it.

3:02:33 Speaker 2: And finally I get out of there and I'm walking

3:02:36 Speaker 2: around trying to find her. There's no cell phones or

3:02:39 Speaker 2: anything in those days. And she's walking stalking along in

3:02:44 Speaker 2: the in the in the nave of the Vatican, and.

3:02:47 Speaker 1: She's totally.

3:02:49 Speaker 2: Crazy. She looks like a vampire. She's just furious about

3:02:54 Speaker 2: something and won't talk, and she's glaring straight ahead, scares

3:02:59 Speaker 2: the hell out of me, and I think, perhaps I

3:03:02 Speaker 2: don't want to sleep another night with this woman, because

3:03:04 Speaker 2: she's beneath the surface. There's obviously a fantastically crazy person

3:03:10 Speaker 2: going on here, and I'm not up to this. I

3:03:13 Speaker 2: haven't had any weird experiences yet at all, so, I mean,

3:03:17 Speaker 2: except my childhood, but I don't remember much of that

3:03:19 Speaker 2: at that time. So I go back to the pension

3:03:22 Speaker 2: and I decide, I'm I'm gonna sciaddle. Her suitcase is

3:03:28 Speaker 2: lying there, and I think to myself, maybe I should

3:03:33 Speaker 2: just look in inside that suitcase. I'm curious, I wonder

3:03:36 Speaker 2: who I am with, and I do open the suitcases,

3:03:40 Speaker 2: not locked, and here is what I remember seeing. Now understand,

3:03:46 Speaker 2: I'm still a Catholic boy at this point. I'm not

3:03:50 Speaker 2: seriously Catholic. I'm, you know, occasional mass Catholic, but I'm

3:03:54 Speaker 2: not a non believer.

3:03:55 Speaker 1: Your parents raised you Catholic, Yeah right, your.

3:03:58 Speaker 2: Parents raise me Catholic. Open the suitcase and there on

3:04:05 Speaker 2: one side is a nun's habit, A nun's habit, a

3:04:10 Speaker 2: nun's clothing black and the white thing in a and

3:04:15 Speaker 2: I think, oh, no, she's a nun. She's left the nunnery,

3:04:21 Speaker 2: and she's crazy in the Vatican because of the fact

3:04:23 Speaker 2: that she's an escaped nun or a nun who is leaving.

3:04:29 Speaker 2: And I've been having not sex but close to it

3:04:33 Speaker 2: with a nun whoa this is young Whitley.

3:04:38 Speaker 1: Is horrified at himself.

3:04:41 Speaker 2: Then I noticed on the other side what appeared to

3:04:44 Speaker 2: my mind to be a dried owl, a crushed owl,

3:04:49 Speaker 2: owl owl, And I think, okay, I was right, she

3:04:55 Speaker 2: is completely crazy. I closed the suitcase and the next

3:04:58 Speaker 2: time I went up to roam the train station to

3:05:02 Speaker 2: Termany that Pancyoni was right near it, got on literally

3:05:05 Speaker 2: the next train that was moving out, and didn't get

3:05:07 Speaker 2: off the train until I was in Strasbourg. I just

3:05:12 Speaker 2: got out of there, scared the hell out of me.

3:05:15 Speaker 2: And I still don't know. I know that I'm not

3:05:18 Speaker 2: sure that what happened there, but obviously there was something

3:05:22 Speaker 2: way off.

3:05:23 Speaker 1: I thought it was something else that you found in

3:05:25 Speaker 1: her suitcase. I thought it was skin. No, the skin

3:05:30 Speaker 1: of like of a human. No, absolutely not. No.

3:05:33 Speaker 2: Anyone who said that to you was was blowing smoke

3:05:36 Speaker 2: in your face. That's I never seen absolutely not.

3:05:40 Speaker 1: Huh. I wonder how that would have got out.

3:05:41 Speaker 2: There, because people like to embellish things.

3:05:44 Speaker 1: Have you heard that before people say that. I haven't

3:05:47 Speaker 1: never heard that before.

3:05:47 Speaker 2: I don't know who said it either, but somebody probably did.

3:05:50 Speaker 2: I mean, I wouldn't be surprised.

3:05:51 Speaker 1: Interesting, are you religious now? No?

3:05:57 Speaker 2: Not really.

3:05:58 Speaker 1: I just wrote a book about Jesus.

3:05:59 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well it's not a religious book. It's called Jesus

3:06:02 Speaker 2: a New Vision for a reason. It's a book that

3:06:04 Speaker 2: is going to try to re establish the validity of

3:06:11 Speaker 2: the teachings of Jesus for people who are not religious people.

3:06:16 Speaker 1: And what made you want to do that?

3:06:19 Speaker 2: I think the teachings are very valuable and very important.

3:06:22 Speaker 2: I think there's a lot that's fad. I could also

3:06:24 Speaker 2: do the same thing with many of the other religions,

3:06:28 Speaker 2: but I've just done this with that one so far.

3:06:32 Speaker 2: And what I did was this first, Nobody understands what

3:06:40 Speaker 2: caused Christianity to come about, because the religious scholars who

3:06:46 Speaker 2: write about it are all coming from mostly from a

3:06:49 Speaker 2: religious standpoint. Yes, but there's another way of looking at

3:06:54 Speaker 2: it entirely, like people think that some malignant force caused

3:07:00 Speaker 2: the destruction of the Roman Empire. You know what caused it?

3:07:05 Speaker 2: The sun caused the destruction of the Roman Empire. And

3:07:09 Speaker 2: how did this happen? Well, from about five hundred BC

3:07:15 Speaker 2: to one hundred AD, there was something in the Mediterranean

3:07:19 Speaker 2: basin known as the Roman climate optimum. That is to say,

3:07:23 Speaker 2: the climate of the Mediterranean basin was ideal for the

3:07:27 Speaker 2: growing of crops and the seasons were very regular. The

3:07:31 Speaker 2: result of this is the Roman Empire comes about. Its

3:07:34 Speaker 2: population grows enormously. They build roads, they have sea lanes,

3:07:40 Speaker 2: They have a number of large cities, including mainly Rome,

3:07:45 Speaker 2: but others that require very substantial food services in a

3:07:53 Speaker 2: world where the transportation of food stuffs is very challenging.

3:07:59 Speaker 2: So this is where we are in one hundred a d. When,

3:08:04 Speaker 2: as we know from stalagmite or stalagmites that are have

3:08:11 Speaker 2: been measured in a cave in Scotland, the solar output

3:08:16 Speaker 2: increased slightly, and it does that every once in a while,

3:08:20 Speaker 2: it increases some and decreases some. And when that happened,

3:08:26 Speaker 2: the Mediterranean basin went into a protracted state of drought,

3:08:31 Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, all of these people couldn't

3:08:35 Speaker 2: get food. The result is their immune systems become stressed

3:08:40 Speaker 2: because they are malnourished. We then have the first Great

3:08:46 Speaker 2: Roman plague because these people they have no germ theory,

3:08:50 Speaker 2: they have compromised immune systems because they are malnourished. Because

3:08:55 Speaker 2: of the solar activity, the change in solar output, they

3:09:00 Speaker 2: are moving around the area as they did not certainly

3:09:04 Speaker 2: before even one AD. I mean, they're really it's really

3:09:09 Speaker 2: a going concern. At that point. The first plague occurs,

3:09:13 Speaker 2: the Aurelian plague, the plague at the time of Marcus Aurelius,

3:09:17 Speaker 2: which causes such disruption and depopulation that at one point

3:09:22 Speaker 2: he's got to sell the furniture and the contents of

3:09:26 Speaker 2: the imperial Palace in Rome in order to keep the

3:09:28 Speaker 2: country army paid. So it's a big upset. Now, this

3:09:35 Speaker 2: is a world in which the religion and the and

3:09:39 Speaker 2: the state are not just It's not just church and state.

3:09:42 Speaker 2: They are the same thing. If you if you are

3:09:48 Speaker 2: a Roman, the Roman gods are Rome. They are Rome.

3:09:54 Speaker 2: Jupiter and Venus and all of the different Roman gods Mars,

3:09:58 Speaker 2: they are Rome. They are the personification of your state,

3:10:02 Speaker 2: and your state and your gods are essentially the same,

3:10:06 Speaker 2: So everyone, of course runs to places like the temples

3:10:09 Speaker 2: of Asclepius the Healer to get healed. Now, in those days,

3:10:15 Speaker 2: you did not. When you did the sacrifice, it had

3:10:19 Speaker 2: to hurt. You didn't just go in and throw a

3:10:22 Speaker 2: couple of coins in. You went in and you took

3:10:25 Speaker 2: a bullock, or you took something of value to yourself,

3:10:29 Speaker 2: something that would be a significant sacrifice, and you gave

3:10:33 Speaker 2: it to the god, and in return the god was

3:10:36 Speaker 2: supposed to help you to heal you plague after plague

3:10:41 Speaker 2: came and the gods.

3:10:43 Speaker 1: Didn't help them.

3:10:45 Speaker 2: About three hundred a d. There hasn't been a plague

3:10:48 Speaker 2: for a while, but the relationship between the people and

3:10:54 Speaker 2: the gods has deteriorated to the point that the temples

3:10:58 Speaker 2: are now starving. No one bothers. They don't hate them yet.

3:11:03 Speaker 2: They're starting to, but they don't hate them yet, and

3:11:07 Speaker 2: they are stopping sacrifice. Constantine, who was a political genius,

3:11:17 Speaker 2: realizes this problem and sees that the social fabric is

3:11:23 Speaker 2: the tior of the empire is declining. There's crime, there's inflation,

3:11:28 Speaker 2: there's all kinds of problems. He also sees that his

3:11:32 Speaker 2: mother is a member of one little cult called the Christians,

3:11:36 Speaker 2: who believe that this Jewish rabbi from Jerusalem it was

3:11:42 Speaker 2: a special representative of God. And they have something called

3:11:48 Speaker 2: the de Dace, which is a rule of life that

3:11:51 Speaker 2: has enabled them to remain intact through all the plagues

3:11:57 Speaker 2: because they have this tight social unit that takes in

3:12:01 Speaker 2: the orphans, and that they have the paramnari who go

3:12:04 Speaker 2: out and help the people who are sick, even at

3:12:08 Speaker 2: risk of their own lives. In other words, it's a

3:12:11 Speaker 2: very powerful social organization and it's intact. And he brings

3:12:16 Speaker 2: that into the Roman Empire and announces that Christianity is

3:12:21 Speaker 2: the new religion of the Roman Empire. But he does

3:12:24 Speaker 2: it this way. He moves the birth place of Jesus,

3:12:30 Speaker 2: which was probably Nazareth to bethle Him and places him

3:12:34 Speaker 2: in a cave. The birthplace in a cave that was

3:12:37 Speaker 2: traditionally the cave where Venus gave birth to Adonis. In

3:12:42 Speaker 2: other words, he replaces the Venus and Adonis's story with

3:12:47 Speaker 2: the story of the Holy Family, and Jesus takes on

3:12:53 Speaker 2: the trappings of a Roman god, essentially a son God.

3:12:56 Speaker 2: He replaces Adonis as I am the Way, the Truth

3:13:01 Speaker 2: and the Light and becomes Christianity. Now, this is good

3:13:07 Speaker 2: and it's bad. It's good because it preserves the teachings

3:13:10 Speaker 2: of Jesus, at least some of them. It's bad because

3:13:15 Speaker 2: the plagues continue. And because of the plague continuing, the

3:13:19 Speaker 2: Christian parts of the Empire become venomously angry at the gods.

3:13:28 Speaker 2: Because in those days, the gods were the statues. The

3:13:32 Speaker 2: statue of Apollo, and the temple of Apollo was the god,

3:13:37 Speaker 2: and they were specially treated so that the spirit of

3:13:40 Speaker 2: the God could come into the statue. Was all very Now,

3:13:45 Speaker 2: so the people start to destroy the gods. They tear

3:13:48 Speaker 2: down the temples, they break the statues. That's why all

3:13:51 Speaker 2: those statues from there have broken noses and no arms

3:13:55 Speaker 2: broken off, because they were being beaten with hammers, because

3:13:59 Speaker 2: the people were trying to kill the gods, because they

3:14:02 Speaker 2: had decided this. These plagues were so bad that, for example,

3:14:06 Speaker 2: at one point Constantinople was so depopulated the emperor had

3:14:11 Speaker 2: to send the army out into the into the hitterlands

3:14:15 Speaker 2: to force people to repopulate the city. I mean, it

3:14:19 Speaker 2: was horrendous, It was unimaginable. It makes Covid look like

3:14:24 Speaker 2: a picnic and through all of this, gradually the entire

3:14:32 Speaker 2: old religion is destroyed. There are a number of libraries

3:14:38 Speaker 2: that are destroyed. The one that we always think about,

3:14:41 Speaker 2: of course, is the library at Alexandria, which which went

3:14:45 Speaker 2: slowly over a period of time that the killing of

3:14:49 Speaker 2: Hypatia was the really the that's what we should remember

3:14:53 Speaker 2: is the worst thing that happened there, because the the

3:14:57 Speaker 2: destruction of the library was not an intention burning and

3:15:01 Speaker 2: one go. It was a gradual decline in interest and

3:15:06 Speaker 2: activity and a series of fires, some of which were

3:15:09 Speaker 2: probably set. And so we lost a lot. We lost

3:15:15 Speaker 2: a lot. And the fact that the Andti Kitherra device

3:15:18 Speaker 2: is so sophisticated, and we'd have no idea, We have

3:15:24 Speaker 2: no record of it. No one wrote anything about it.

3:15:27 Speaker 2: We didn't even know what it was built for until recently.

3:15:31 Speaker 2: That's because those records were all destroyed, I'm sure, in

3:15:35 Speaker 2: the destruction of the of the knowledge of the of

3:15:38 Speaker 2: the classical world. But the knowledge of the classical world

3:15:42 Speaker 2: was destroyed because people thought that those gods had turned

3:15:45 Speaker 2: against them, and they demonized their own gods, and they

3:15:49 Speaker 2: were left with a god, Jesus, and they proceeded I'll

3:15:53 Speaker 2: tell you the Sayings Gospel of Thomas, which I finally

3:15:57 Speaker 2: translated myself, because so many of the translanguage.

3:16:04 Speaker 1: Greek. Oh wow, yeah, Oh, so you know Greek. No.

3:16:08 Speaker 2: No, I knew Greek, and I knew Greek when I

3:16:11 Speaker 2: was working on the book. I knew Greek and Latin

3:16:14 Speaker 2: when I was young pretty well, and I re.

3:16:19 Speaker 1: Generated the Greek.

3:16:21 Speaker 2: And learned a little Aramaic when I was working on

3:16:23 Speaker 2: Jesus New Vision, because I wanted to see the original

3:16:26 Speaker 2: language as best I could, Okay, And but I would

3:16:29 Speaker 2: not say I was I would love to say, oh, yes,

3:16:32 Speaker 2: I know classical Greek, but unfortunately I don't. I know

3:16:35 Speaker 2: enough of it, enough classical Greek to certainly do a translation,

3:16:39 Speaker 2: and then to look at at at at at dictionaries

3:16:44 Speaker 2: and historical dictionaries to try to understand if the words

3:16:50 Speaker 2: are meaningful in different ways, because they've been those translations

3:16:54 Speaker 2: have mostly been done by scholars with agendas. That's why

3:16:58 Speaker 2: I did it, and it turned out.

3:17:00 Speaker 1: And they're also coming from the Canons too, They're coming

3:17:03 Speaker 1: from these gospels. They're not coming from classical sources. No.

3:17:08 Speaker 2: But the Sayings Gospel of Thomas is a different story.

3:17:13 Speaker 2: It's probably the oldest gospel. Sayings gospels are sayings. It's

3:17:22 Speaker 2: just a group of sayings were much that's a much

3:17:25 Speaker 2: older form than the narrative story gospels. Narrative gospels are

3:17:30 Speaker 2: among the first real stories that they were like the

3:17:35 Speaker 2: early novels basically, and they're contradictions between them because these

3:17:40 Speaker 2: men weren't in communication with each other and they're all

3:17:43 Speaker 2: trying to tell the stories they had known it from

3:17:46 Speaker 2: their friends.

3:17:47 Speaker 1: The Gospel of Thomas authored.

3:17:51 Speaker 2: It was the earliest, so it would be it was

3:17:53 Speaker 2: probably around the time of Mark fifty a d. I believe,

3:18:00 Speaker 2: and probably before that because there are things in Mark

3:18:04 Speaker 2: that would have come from it. But here's the difference

3:18:08 Speaker 2: between the sayings Gospel of Tongues that all the canonical gospels.

3:18:12 Speaker 2: The canonical gospels are laying it out, telling you what

3:18:15 Speaker 2: to do, this is that, and then Paul comes along

3:18:19 Speaker 2: and adds to that rules. But the sayings Gospel is

3:18:25 Speaker 2: very different. At one point, Jesus takes a disciple aside

3:18:30 Speaker 2: and tells him a secret, and he goes back to

3:18:33 Speaker 2: the others, and they said, want to know the secret,

3:18:36 Speaker 2: and he says, if I told you the secret, you

3:18:40 Speaker 2: would have to stone me to death. And another point,

3:18:44 Speaker 2: Jesus says, don't go in to people's houses and eat

3:18:49 Speaker 2: what they give you, in other words, violate the dietary laws.

3:18:53 Speaker 2: Don't be a good jew, he says, don't pray. At

3:18:59 Speaker 2: one point he says, don't believe me. In other words,

3:19:04 Speaker 2: he's saying, be your own, be your own person, do

3:19:11 Speaker 2: it yourself, don't be in a religion, make your own journey,

3:19:20 Speaker 2: find your own way. And then Constantine comes along and says, nope,

3:19:27 Speaker 2: we've got an empire to preserve here. We're going to

3:19:30 Speaker 2: take this and make it into a rule. And that's

3:19:33 Speaker 2: why I wrote Jesus's new vision, so that we could

3:19:36 Speaker 2: understand why that was done and what was originally intended.

3:19:40 Speaker 2: And what was originally intended was to find your own

3:19:46 Speaker 2: journey and make that journey. And Jesus leaves all kinds

3:19:50 Speaker 2: of hints as to what to do to do that.

3:19:55 Speaker 1: Have you ever have you discussed this with any sort

3:19:57 Speaker 1: of classicists or fallawa GISTs or linguists this stuff like

3:20:02 Speaker 1: you think people like that would talk to Whitley Streemer.

3:20:04 Speaker 1: I don't think so.

3:20:05 Speaker 2: Why not, because I'm the Brechtel probe man, among other things,

3:20:08 Speaker 2: And mister Saucer Sam.

3:20:11 Speaker 1: What other sort of sources did you look at besides

3:20:14 Speaker 1: this this gospel to write this book.

3:20:17 Speaker 2: I'm I'm a good and efficient researcher. I looked at

3:20:20 Speaker 2: an enormous amount of stuff.

3:20:22 Speaker 1: Did you read any like, any other texts, like any

3:20:24 Speaker 1: sort of like plays or stories, or the medical texts

3:20:31 Speaker 1: or anything.

3:20:33 Speaker 2: Have you ever read any ancient medical texts?

3:20:36 Speaker 1: I've I can't read Greek, but I've read translations. Yeah, yeah,

3:20:39 Speaker 1: well I can't read the Greek medical Galen Marcus Aurelis's position.

3:20:43 Speaker 2: Galen, Yeah, Galen. Galen had some fairly unfortunate ideas that

3:20:48 Speaker 2: almost certainly didn't work well at all. Like what, oh

3:20:53 Speaker 2: read some of his I can't remember precisely, but just

3:20:56 Speaker 2: read some of his potions and things. You were supposed

3:21:01 Speaker 2: to drink this?

3:21:02 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, bodily fluids stuff like that.

3:21:05 Speaker 2: Oh God, I mean rabbit, I don't know.

3:21:09 Speaker 1: It didn't work.

3:21:11 Speaker 2: They didn't know what they were doing. Magic worked better

3:21:13 Speaker 2: than religion. And that's another thing I get into in

3:21:16 Speaker 2: Jesus' New vision, because magic works if people believe it,

3:21:21 Speaker 2: and maybe it even works when they don't know it.

3:21:25 Speaker 2: It's very interesting that the way it works like we

3:21:33 Speaker 2: called something, we call it the placebo effect. Now, they

3:21:36 Speaker 2: didn't know about the placebo effect. They didn't they hadn't

3:21:41 Speaker 2: disempowered it. In other words, so when a magician, if

3:21:44 Speaker 2: you had a case of hysterical blindness, or a skin

3:21:48 Speaker 2: disease that was basically a nervous disorder, or many different

3:21:55 Speaker 2: types of neurosis or psychosis, you could be cure by

3:22:00 Speaker 2: a magician, absolutely in those days, because if you believed

3:22:04 Speaker 2: the magician, you were going to get the cure. And

3:22:06 Speaker 2: Jesus was very, very good at at sympathetic magic. He

3:22:14 Speaker 2: was an extremely powerful and convincing magician, and that is

3:22:18 Speaker 2: preserved in the gospels very adequately.

3:22:21 Speaker 1: He was also, from what I understand from other classicists,

3:22:24 Speaker 1: is that he was very involved with drugs, and in

3:22:27 Speaker 1: fact no idea about that. The term christ is a

3:22:30 Speaker 1: is a Greek word and it means to It means

3:22:32 Speaker 1: to apply drugs to the eyes, so you may so

3:22:35 Speaker 1: you may see.

3:22:36 Speaker 2: Well, the magical way of applying of curing blindness in

3:22:42 Speaker 2: those days was to apply spittle to the eyes, not drugs,

3:22:47 Speaker 2: and that was in the that was in both the

3:22:49 Speaker 2: Egyptian and the Greek magical texts, and you can see

3:22:53 Speaker 2: Jesus doing that in a couple of cases. As I recall,

3:22:59 Speaker 2: I don't go down the road of drugs, but I

3:23:02 Speaker 2: do know they're very important. I'm not disputing that at all.

3:23:06 Speaker 2: I have long wished that we said some kind of.

3:23:10 Speaker 1: Drugs were ubiquitous in those times.

3:23:12 Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah. Well, Graham Hancock wrote a wonderful book about

3:23:16 Speaker 2: drugs in the earlier in the Stone Age. The drugs

3:23:21 Speaker 2: have been a part of human life until until until

3:23:27 Speaker 2: the prohibition ended and the Bureau of Alcohol to back

3:23:31 Speaker 2: when firearms suddenly didn't have a job and they decided

3:23:34 Speaker 2: to illegalize marijuana and heroin.

3:23:37 Speaker 1: So they still have work to do, right well, the

3:23:39 Speaker 1: use of drugs also when it comes to like what

3:23:42 Speaker 1: they were doing in eleusis with the Ellucinian mysteries and

3:23:44 Speaker 1: those rights that they were doing. They were drinking ergot

3:23:50 Speaker 1: and other drugs that were basically I mean, all these

3:23:55 Speaker 1: pagan cults are around this time too, where this is

3:23:58 Speaker 1: where the idea of and rebirth came from, right, And

3:24:05 Speaker 1: you know a lot of classicists believe that this was

3:24:11 Speaker 1: the use of drugs and these Illucinian mysteries that were

3:24:14 Speaker 1: going on for two thousand years were responsible for the

3:24:17 Speaker 1: explosion of intellect and thought and creativity back then, probably

3:24:24 Speaker 1: were And you know, it wasn't until around four hundred

3:24:29 Speaker 1: a d. That they burned down Eleusis and that led

3:24:35 Speaker 1: us into the Dark Ages.

3:24:36 Speaker 2: They went stupid basically because the the culture's response to

3:24:47 Speaker 2: the stresses that they were under had not been been effective.

3:24:53 Speaker 2: In other words, they didn't get the cures that the

3:24:58 Speaker 2: gods were supposed to give them, and they abandoned their

3:25:02 Speaker 2: own culture as a result. That's what happened. That's why

3:25:06 Speaker 2: Christianity became what it was. And they tried to purify

3:25:12 Speaker 2: their world by destroying all of the old gods and

3:25:16 Speaker 2: everything connected with them, including all of the knowledge, in

3:25:20 Speaker 2: hopes that this would please Jesus, and Jesus would come,

3:25:24 Speaker 2: the Christ would come and save them, because they had

3:25:28 Speaker 2: no science worth mentioning and no idea of what was

3:25:31 Speaker 2: happening to them. To them, it was a supernatural event

3:25:36 Speaker 2: when a person got sick.

3:25:39 Speaker 1: And you know, Christianity was responsible for the suppression of

3:25:44 Speaker 1: a lot of science and a lot of free thinking

3:25:46 Speaker 1: and a lot of new ideas.

3:25:47 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's had trouble science for a long time.

3:25:51 Speaker 1: Because if we found out that we weren't the center

3:25:54 Speaker 1: of the universe and there were other planets out there,

3:25:56 Speaker 1: and God, if there's all these worlds out there, how

3:25:59 Speaker 1: come Jesus just came to our world just because we're

3:26:02 Speaker 1: the only ones who said we were the only imperfect

3:26:05 Speaker 1: aliens out there in the universe.

3:26:06 Speaker 2: Well, you know, there's a very interesting part of Jesus

3:26:09 Speaker 2: and New Vision, which is about the resurrection and about

3:26:13 Speaker 2: what is actually known about the Shroud of Turin.

3:26:16 Speaker 1: Now.

3:26:16 Speaker 2: I recently on my website there's a significant social media

3:26:21 Speaker 2: section of it. Someone put up a thing saying, I

3:26:26 Speaker 2: don't believe that there was a resurrection because Jesus died

3:26:30 Speaker 2: on the cross and there was nothing that happened on

3:26:32 Speaker 2: the cross that was unusual in any way. He simply died.

3:26:36 Speaker 2: And I thought to myself, this is very clever. He

3:26:39 Speaker 2: died early, Well he died early. Yeah, but that's and

3:26:43 Speaker 2: it's possible, of course, it's possible there was a twin.

3:26:49 Speaker 2: And it's also possible that he wasn't really dead when

3:26:51 Speaker 2: he was put into the tomb. But that's not what

3:26:54 Speaker 2: the story of the Shroud of Turin tells. The Shroud

3:26:58 Speaker 2: of Turin tells a very strange story. And no matter

3:27:02 Speaker 2: how hard the conventional scientific community has worked to debunk

3:27:08 Speaker 2: that story, it's still there. The mystery still exists. Back

3:27:12 Speaker 2: in Gosh in the seventies, and and I were introduced

3:27:18 Speaker 2: to two Air Force officers, Jackson and Jumper, who wanted

3:27:25 Speaker 2: to test the Shout of Turin. It was a father,

3:27:29 Speaker 2: Peter Rinaldi, who introduced them us to this project, and

3:27:35 Speaker 2: we contributed a little money to it. We would have

3:27:38 Speaker 2: contributed more, but we didn't have more, and so we

3:27:41 Speaker 2: were very involved in the Shout of Turin project. And

3:27:45 Speaker 2: as soon as I heard that the testing was going

3:27:48 Speaker 2: to be done at Oxford, I knew it would be false.

3:27:55 Speaker 2: And I wrote, I believe Father Renaldi's saying, do not

3:27:59 Speaker 2: do this. They cannot afford to have their paradigm destroyed.

3:28:05 Speaker 2: And they will tell lies, and not even intentionally. They

3:28:10 Speaker 2: will do it in all good faith, but they will

3:28:13 Speaker 2: still be false. And indeed, if you look carefully, you

3:28:17 Speaker 2: will find that the parts of the shroud that were

3:28:21 Speaker 2: taken were too close to the burn marks from the

3:28:25 Speaker 2: fifteenth century fire to give accurate carbon dating. They were

3:28:29 Speaker 2: going to give carbon dating later than the shroud actually

3:28:34 Speaker 2: it was, and so that carbon dating is not correct,

3:28:38 Speaker 2: and they will stand by it because they did it

3:28:41 Speaker 2: very carefully and very correctly, but they did it to

3:28:43 Speaker 2: the wrong area and they may not even consciously be

3:28:46 Speaker 2: aware of that, but that's what happened. There has been

3:28:49 Speaker 2: extensive research done into the shroud since then. There's a

3:28:53 Speaker 2: wonderful book out called Test the Shroud about the shroud

3:28:57 Speaker 2: and about the work that's been done so far and

3:29:00 Speaker 2: what needs to be done additionally, and it's quite convincing

3:29:04 Speaker 2: because I think there's truth to it. Among other things,

3:29:08 Speaker 2: the image is burned into just the absolutely top micro

3:29:15 Speaker 2: just the just the top edges of the of the

3:29:20 Speaker 2: linen in the claw, and that could only be only

3:29:24 Speaker 2: happened with a very high intensity, very sudden flash, very

3:29:30 Speaker 2: high intensity, very sudden. There was remember an earthquake, and

3:29:35 Speaker 2: the temple was was the drape in the temple was torn.

3:29:43 Speaker 2: Probably something happened in the tomb at that moment. And

3:29:48 Speaker 2: this is where we get into the area that the

3:29:51 Speaker 2: Western mind does not want to accept yet. And it's

3:29:55 Speaker 2: not just this, it's a whole lot more that there

3:30:00 Speaker 2: is a large part of human experience and human reality

3:30:06 Speaker 2: that we have turned off. We have put blinders on ourselves.

3:30:11 Speaker 2: We've gone blind to our own souls. We don't believe

3:30:14 Speaker 2: we have them even but they are the only thing

3:30:17 Speaker 2: that matters. And I believe me, the visitors know that

3:30:20 Speaker 2: if you're around them very much, they're real interested in

3:30:24 Speaker 2: your soul, and some of them want your soul to

3:30:27 Speaker 2: be screwed up because then they can get it when

3:30:30 Speaker 2: you're dead and they can do what they want with you.

3:30:32 Speaker 2: And God knows what that is, but it's certainly not

3:30:35 Speaker 2: going to be good news.

3:30:36 Speaker 1: So these things, these visitors, they aren't They don't have

3:30:38 Speaker 1: good intentions necessarily, they have they have they have they

3:30:42 Speaker 1: have selfish intentions.

3:30:44 Speaker 2: But you have to look at them the same way

3:30:47 Speaker 2: we look at ourselves. And when we look at ourselves,

3:30:50 Speaker 2: we see a huge complicated mass of different beliefs, different intentions,

3:30:57 Speaker 2: different desires, different levels of intelligence. All that they're the same.

3:31:04 Speaker 2: They are just as complex, if not more so, and

3:31:07 Speaker 2: probably more so because they are older, and they do

3:31:10 Speaker 2: have abilities that we do not have anymore. I think

3:31:13 Speaker 2: we did in the past, as Jeff Kreipel talked about

3:31:16 Speaker 2: on this show actually, and about the ability to fly

3:31:20 Speaker 2: and so the levitate and so we've turned all that off.

3:31:28 Speaker 2: We turned it off for a very good reason, a

3:31:31 Speaker 2: thousand year oppressive religious dictatorship that was stifling knowledge Christianity, Christianity.

3:31:40 Speaker 2: When on the nature of things Lucretius's poem was rediscovered

3:31:45 Speaker 2: in Germany in the fourteenth century and was reprinted all

3:31:52 Speaker 2: over Europe. Suddenly the idea of the scientific method was

3:31:58 Speaker 2: rekindled in the mind of the people of the Renaissance.

3:32:02 Speaker 2: And this is where people like Galileo and Copernicus were

3:32:05 Speaker 2: coming from, and Giordano Bruno. They were trying to become

3:32:11 Speaker 2: scientists in a world that would definitely burn you to

3:32:14 Speaker 2: death if you weren't careful, which happened to Bruno. And

3:32:19 Speaker 2: we shook that off of ourselves, off of our backs.

3:32:23 Speaker 2: And now any sign of any interest in that level

3:32:28 Speaker 2: of human reality terrifies our intellectuals because they think, my God,

3:32:36 Speaker 2: if we let this out, the next thing we know,

3:32:40 Speaker 2: religious fundamentalists are going to be back in control, and

3:32:42 Speaker 2: we're all going to be burned again. Our lives will

3:32:45 Speaker 2: be destroyed. And if you look at Project twenty five,

3:32:49 Speaker 2: you can see it written right there.

3:32:50 Speaker 1: Project twenty five is that that thing that the.

3:32:53 Speaker 2: That's that thing that's sort of in the.

3:32:55 Speaker 1: Like extreme right wing agenda thing came out.

3:32:58 Speaker 2: Whether it's whatever be opted by anyone, I don't know,

3:33:01 Speaker 2: but it's yeah, I don't think. Yeah, And I've read.

3:33:05 Speaker 2: It's nine hundred pages long, and I have to admit

3:33:07 Speaker 2: that I read an outline of it and I paged

3:33:11 Speaker 2: through it, and basically it's it's a return to.

3:33:16 Speaker 1: The medieval world. Yes, I basically it's what it is. Yeah.

3:33:20 Speaker 1: I tend to think when things like that come out

3:33:22 Speaker 1: that they're just like intentional things to divide society and

3:33:25 Speaker 1: to create and maintain control and things to well, you know. Nope.

3:33:30 Speaker 1: I've heard some of the people come out, like Trump

3:33:33 Speaker 1: and some other people, right wing people that people have

3:33:36 Speaker 1: been questioning them about this Project twenty twenty five thing,

3:33:38 Speaker 1: and they're completely like ripping it to shreds, saying like,

3:33:41 Speaker 1: I don't know where this is coming from. This this

3:33:43 Speaker 1: is like an extreme right wing thing, Like we don't.

3:33:46 Speaker 2: Unless it's actually created by the extreme left wing in

3:33:49 Speaker 2: order to make the.

3:33:49 Speaker 1: Exactly exactly right. There's so much deception going on you

3:33:53 Speaker 1: can't keep it.

3:33:53 Speaker 2: Any I'm not even I'm not in that world, and

3:33:55 Speaker 2: I'm not going to go into politics of Trump and

3:33:58 Speaker 2: Harris now. But I'm just saying that exists, Yes, and

3:34:02 Speaker 2: it is a return to what we were before the

3:34:05 Speaker 2: before the renaissance.

3:34:06 Speaker 1: Yeah, I tend to agree. So, and I I don't think,

3:34:12 Speaker 1: you know, we're not I don't. I don't think real

3:34:13 Speaker 1: people take that kind of stuff. So we're not going

3:34:15 Speaker 1: to go there.

3:34:16 Speaker 2: No, No, they have to face the fact that we're

3:34:19 Speaker 2: free now and ultimately we're going to stay that way.

3:34:22 Speaker 1: Yes. Also there was a guy there. I had another

3:34:26 Speaker 1: guy on here about a year ago named Chris Bledsoe.

3:34:29 Speaker 2: I know Chris. You know. Yeah, he's going to be

3:34:32 Speaker 2: on my show Dreamland in a couple of weeks.

3:34:34 Speaker 1: Oh cool, Yeah, super sweet guy. I loved him.

3:34:38 Speaker 2: Yeah, he's a lovely, lovely man.

3:34:40 Speaker 1: He He mentioned there was a person who I don't

3:34:43 Speaker 1: want to mention his name because I think that's what

3:34:46 Speaker 1: got his episode banned off my channel or it's unsearchable

3:34:50 Speaker 1: now on YouTube if you search for his our podcast

3:34:52 Speaker 1: we did together. There's a guy he mentioned on there

3:34:54 Speaker 1: who was very shadowy, who approached him and like became

3:34:59 Speaker 1: friends with him and his family, who is involved in

3:35:01 Speaker 1: many different agencies.

3:35:03 Speaker 2: No, I know who you mean.

3:35:04 Speaker 1: Yeah, have you ever talked to this guy?

3:35:06 Speaker 2: Yes?

3:35:07 Speaker 1: What do you make of him?

3:35:09 Speaker 2: I don't want to go there except to say that

3:35:10 Speaker 2: he's very sincere, very sincere very sincere, and I'm not

3:35:15 Speaker 2: sure he knows whether or not he's telling the truth.

3:35:18 Speaker 1: You don't think he knows whether he's telling the truth.

3:35:21 Speaker 2: I think a lot of them, don't. I think a

3:35:22 Speaker 2: lot of them are unintentional disinformation agents.

3:35:27 Speaker 1: Yeah.

3:35:28 Speaker 2: I think the visitors are heavily involved in all of

3:35:30 Speaker 2: those people, and they are controlling what they say. I

3:35:33 Speaker 2: don't think their minds are their own. You have to

3:35:36 Speaker 2: be very disciplined, and you have to know you have

3:35:40 Speaker 2: to experience telepathy consciously in order to not fall victim

3:35:45 Speaker 2: to it. And it's very easy for these people to

3:35:48 Speaker 2: be parenting something the visitors are wanting them to say,

3:35:52 Speaker 2: when in fact they think it's their own mind and so,

3:36:00 Speaker 2: And I don't think the intelligence community is at all

3:36:02 Speaker 2: proficient in dealing with that. I'm pretty I wouldn't say

3:36:06 Speaker 2: I was proficient, but I do know when it's happening

3:36:10 Speaker 2: to me, and I think I do. But I always

3:36:14 Speaker 2: tell myself, Whitley, be careful because if you if you

3:36:18 Speaker 2: think you know maybe that's when you don't know you know,

3:36:22 Speaker 2: so you have to be very careful. That's why when

3:36:25 Speaker 2: I talk, I try to only talk about things that

3:36:28 Speaker 2: are that have a definite memory. I don't like to speculate,

3:36:35 Speaker 2: and I because I think that opens my mind up

3:36:37 Speaker 2: to control. So I don't speculate, and I do not

3:36:43 Speaker 2: wish to be controlled, even by people who want me

3:36:47 Speaker 2: to say things I would like to say. I want

3:36:49 Speaker 2: to say it myself, and so no speculation from me,

3:36:54 Speaker 2: or very little, as little as I can get away with.

3:36:56 Speaker 1: Well, Whitley, we almost just did four hours. Are you kidding?

3:37:00 Speaker 1: This has been a fascinating conversation, a real brain bender,

3:37:03 Speaker 1: as you would say, yeah, thank you so much.

3:37:05 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I have to tell you a it's

3:37:08 Speaker 2: a wonderful show. B this was a very cool interview.

3:37:12 Speaker 2: You're brilliant.

3:37:13 Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate that very much. Thank you. I've been

3:37:19 Speaker 1: riveted this whole time. I don't think I said more

3:37:21 Speaker 1: than like ten words those whole podcast. You know, it's

3:37:23 Speaker 1: good when that happens. Tell people where they can find

3:37:26 Speaker 1: your stuff, your books, Okay, I'm your podcast, all that stuff.

3:37:29 Speaker 2: Okay, well listen up. Then my website is Unknowncountry dot com.

3:37:33 Speaker 2: I am Oh there we go. I am on Instagram

3:37:37 Speaker 2: at Whitley Streeber and I am on YouTube at Briduce

3:37:43 Speaker 2: Streeber and Dreamland. My podcast is called Dreamland. You can

3:37:48 Speaker 2: get it on Apple Podcasts or any of the podcast apps,

3:37:52 Speaker 2: and you can also watch it on YouTube. You can

3:37:56 Speaker 2: subscribe to Unknown Country, which would really be nice because

3:37:59 Speaker 2: like all of us desperately trying to get money to

3:38:02 Speaker 2: keep doing this, and it's four ninety five a month.

3:38:05 Speaker 2: That are different and there's lots of different options.

3:38:08 Speaker 1: Oh look, there's your channel.

3:38:09 Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's my channel. And why do the Grays

3:38:14 Speaker 2: appear as owls? Mike Clelland is such a cool guy.

3:38:17 Speaker 1: I had him on here.

3:38:18 Speaker 2: You did, yes, Well, then you know he's a very

3:38:20 Speaker 2: very cool guy.

3:38:21 Speaker 1: Yeah, he is. And my new book is Them.

3:38:24 Speaker 2: I'm working on a book now which is going to

3:38:26 Speaker 2: I hope blow everybody socks off, and it should be

3:38:29 Speaker 2: about by December. And I have a book of poetry

3:38:33 Speaker 2: out and it's called A Hidden Garden and it's available

3:38:38 Speaker 2: on Amazon. It's got like four reviews, but they're really

3:38:42 Speaker 2: good reviews. And if you like poetry, or even if

3:38:46 Speaker 2: you don't, just take a look at it. There's a

3:38:47 Speaker 2: good long sample on Amazon and an audiobook sample too,

3:38:52 Speaker 2: And I'm very interested in poetry. That's another level of

3:38:54 Speaker 2: my existence. And I don't expect to sell many copies

3:38:59 Speaker 2: of Hidden, but I loved making it beautiful.

3:39:02 Speaker 1: Man again, thank you. I'll link all that stuff below

3:39:05 Speaker 1: so people can go check it out. And we are

3:39:08 Speaker 1: gonna do a little Patreon Q and A. We got

3:39:10 Speaker 1: some people on our Patreon who asked really some questions,

3:39:12 Speaker 1: so we are gonna go do that, and that's it.

3:39:17 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed, and good night, folks,