David Grusch- Former Intelligence Speaks With Rogan on Crash Retrievals, Alien Life and More

0:01 Speaker 1: Joe Roman podcast. Check it out the Joe Logan Experience Train,

0:06 Speaker 1: My Day, Joe.

0:07 Speaker 2: Rogan podcast, by Night All Day.

0:12 Speaker 1: So wine Man, Hey, good, good, thanks for coming here.

0:16 Speaker 1: Appreciate it. Yeah, yeah, no, it's a pleasure.

0:18 Speaker 2: You've been on a whirlwind sort of tour. I guess

0:24 Speaker 2: we should start from the beginning. Yeah, So, first of all,

0:28 Speaker 2: lay out to people what your job was with the

0:30 Speaker 2: military and how this all started for you.

0:34 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So I was an intel officer in the

0:36 Speaker 1: Air Force for fourteen years, seven active, seven reserve. Then

0:41 Speaker 1: I kind of had like a parallel tract in the

0:43 Speaker 1: civilian intel world when I became a reservist, and ultimately

0:49 Speaker 1: I got brought back in in civil service in a

0:52 Speaker 1: government way at the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency a couple

0:56 Speaker 1: of years ago at a senior level. So I was

0:59 Speaker 1: a major you're in the Air Force, and a GS

1:02 Speaker 1: fifteen at NNGA, which is like a fulbird Kernel equivalent

1:05 Speaker 1: civilian employee. You know, I'm very humbled that I was

1:08 Speaker 1: able to kind of get that kind of job. But

1:12 Speaker 1: my career mostly I didn't even really think about this topic.

1:17 Speaker 1: UFOs were not on my radar. I wasn't really a believer.

1:19 Speaker 1: I was agnostic about it. Most of my career, I

1:23 Speaker 1: did a lot of you know, behind the door special

1:27 Speaker 1: access program technical type activities. I was kind of a

1:32 Speaker 1: space intelligence expert, a cyber intel expert.

1:35 Speaker 2: And.

1:37 Speaker 1: Like I said, this was not on my radar at all.

1:39 Speaker 1: You know, I would joke with my buddies because I

1:41 Speaker 1: used to handle the presidential Daily brief for the National

1:44 Speaker 1: Connaissance Office Director in my military capacity as a reservist,

1:49 Speaker 1: and I was well clear to hundreds and hundreds of

1:52 Speaker 1: Compartment of programs, and you know, the joke was like,

1:54 Speaker 1: when are we going to get the read on for

1:56 Speaker 1: the crazy shit? And that never happened. And I do

2:02 Speaker 1: remember that the day that I really can remember that,

2:07 Speaker 1: I was like, huh, what's what this UFO stuff? I

2:10 Speaker 1: was briefing a senior person at the CIA into a

2:15 Speaker 1: couple hundred special access programs. So I was at the

2:19 Speaker 1: headquarters at the agency, and you know, after the indoctrination

2:21 Speaker 1: I was giving to the senior person, this person who

2:26 Speaker 1: worked with louel Azando previously, was like, yeah, Dave, have

2:30 Speaker 1: you ever heard of this guy louel Azando. He's running

2:33 Speaker 1: some UFO program at the Pentagon we all think he's crazy.

2:37 Speaker 1: And I'm like, I don't know who this guy, louil

2:39 Speaker 1: Azando is, and I don't know of any kind of

2:42 Speaker 1: UFO program, so that sounds nuts to me. But lo

2:46 Speaker 1: and behold, And that was like early twenty seventeen, and

2:50 Speaker 1: lo and beholds. In December twenty seventeen, that New York

2:53 Speaker 1: Times article came up with that named the a TIP

2:57 Speaker 1: program and the awse AT programs Advance Aerospace Weapons Systems

3:01 Speaker 1: Application Program and the Advance Aerospace Threat Identification Program being

3:06 Speaker 1: the other acronym, and I was like, holy shit, wait,

3:09 Speaker 1: that's that guy louel Azando that I heard about. Oh

3:12 Speaker 1: you know what, I think I have heard of OSAPP.

3:14 Speaker 1: When I was a lieutenant, I used to read these

3:16 Speaker 1: reports from the Defense Intelligence Agency on black holes and stuff,

3:20 Speaker 1: and I was like, Oh, that's like stupid. Why is

3:23 Speaker 1: the DIA looking into black holes time warps? It just

3:27 Speaker 1: didn't make any sense to me back in like eight

3:29 Speaker 1: oh nine when I was a lieutenant, and all of

3:32 Speaker 1: a sudden, I'm like, well, maybe there's something to this

3:34 Speaker 1: UFO thing. I'm not saying I was like a believer

3:37 Speaker 1: either way on the subject, but this was a topic

3:40 Speaker 1: of concern apparently for the Pentagon. And in twenty eighteen

3:46 Speaker 1: I started doing kind of min what I call my

3:48 Speaker 1: open source literature review, like let me spin myself up

3:50 Speaker 1: on this topic, watching Chris Mellan, Luis Asando, Leslie Keane

3:55 Speaker 1: all these people talk about the subject, and then you know,

3:59 Speaker 1: just trying to understan and so what is this with UFOs?

4:02 Speaker 1: Has this been going on for a while? The answer

4:04 Speaker 1: is yes, like food fighters, sightings of weird stuff in antiquity,

4:08 Speaker 1: et cetera, which we can get intil later. But and

4:11 Speaker 1: so early twenty nineteen comes along and my boss at

4:16 Speaker 1: the Nashal Reconnaissance Office and kind of my Air Force

4:19 Speaker 1: major capacity forwarded me an email from the what became

4:22 Speaker 1: a stood up in like I guess it was twenty eighteen,

4:26 Speaker 1: which was the Unidentified while was aerial now anonymous Anomalous

4:30 Speaker 1: Phenomena task Force UAP task Force. So the UAP task

4:34 Speaker 1: Force director sent my boss an email saying, Hey, we're

4:36 Speaker 1: looking for a rep to the task force. And as

4:39 Speaker 1: like any good officer, I was like, well, I'll put

4:41 Speaker 1: it on my performance report. Hey I was on a

4:44 Speaker 1: task force, and you know that would look good and

4:47 Speaker 1: I had, being well cleared and also a bachelor's degree

4:51 Speaker 1: in physics, master's in intelligence analysis. I'm like, you know what,

4:55 Speaker 1: I'll figure out what the shit is. It's either going

4:56 Speaker 1: to be weather shit. Maybe it's an avisarial pro Maybe

5:01 Speaker 1: it's like a US program people are misidentifying on rare occasions.

5:06 Speaker 1: So fucking I'll I'll go see where the data takes me.

5:11 Speaker 1: And you know, early twenty nineteen or so, I joined

5:14 Speaker 1: u AP Task Force and then I started, you know,

5:20 Speaker 1: interviewing pilots, flag officers, you know general officer equivalent type

5:26 Speaker 1: Navy folks, and you know, they were seeing some really

5:29 Speaker 1: crazy shit and like a you know event that I

5:32 Speaker 1: talked about previously publicly in a YouTube video on the

5:36 Speaker 1: Yes Theory channel. You know, there was this one thirty

5:39 Speaker 1: year senior Navy officer that you know, he was going

5:43 Speaker 1: to work sober no predisposition for fantasy, all that kind

5:47 Speaker 1: of stuff. Because I interviewed the individual for a couple

5:48 Speaker 1: hours and he saw this you know, crazy triangle hover

5:52 Speaker 1: over his car going to work at a certain naval facility,

5:56 Speaker 1: and it like blew his mind. He was serious. The

6:01 Speaker 1: paint on his car turned milky white after the incident.

6:04 Speaker 1: So that's to me, that sounds like ionizing radiation, so

6:07 Speaker 1: like ultraviolet, just like how your your headlights get all

6:12 Speaker 1: foggy over time if you park your car out in

6:14 Speaker 1: the sun. Same phenomenon just happened, you know, within twenty

6:18 Speaker 1: four hour period. And I'm like, whoa if this is true?

6:22 Speaker 1: And the oral testimony and you know, crazy radar data

6:26 Speaker 1: that I saw when I was on the task force,

6:29 Speaker 1: you know, stuff making turns that didn't make any sense. Well,

6:32 Speaker 1: holy shit, what is this stuff?

6:33 Speaker 2: Then this anomaly with his paint was is this documented?

6:38 Speaker 1: Is his photographs or yes, I saw photographs.

6:40 Speaker 2: It was documented, Yeah, And what is there a conventional explanation?

6:46 Speaker 1: I mean, based on what he described something to rapidly

6:51 Speaker 1: ionize his paint like that within a day, I don't

6:55 Speaker 1: I can't think of anything off the top of my

6:56 Speaker 1: head in terms of some conventional aerospace tech technology. And

7:01 Speaker 1: this was a certain facility in the continental US. This

7:04 Speaker 1: is not overseas, so it's not like our avisaries flying

7:07 Speaker 1: some spooky thing in US airspace.

7:11 Speaker 2: So this thing hovered over his car for how long?

7:15 Speaker 1: A couple of minutes while he was traveling at about

7:17 Speaker 1: sixty miles an hour, so it was pacing how far

7:21 Speaker 1: away from his vehicle, It's probably a couple hundred feet

7:26 Speaker 1: in altitude. It was less than a thousand feet, which

7:28 Speaker 1: is also bad because from an airspace perspective, pilots would

7:32 Speaker 1: know this. Anything under a thousand feet no, unless you

7:35 Speaker 1: get special clearance, and you only do that over controlled

7:39 Speaker 1: airspace like a military test ranges. Right, people fly low

7:42 Speaker 1: and that kind of thing. So is is he on

7:44 Speaker 1: what kind of a highway? Is he on a conventional

7:47 Speaker 1: civilian highs pavilion US?

7:49 Speaker 2: So anyone could have been on it. Yes, it just

7:51 Speaker 2: happened to be this guy. Did he have any other

7:55 Speaker 2: experiences with this thing?

7:57 Speaker 1: No, this was like a once in a lifetime thing.

8:01 Speaker 1: He kept it to himself for a couple of years,

8:04 Speaker 1: but then he ask force his name. I don't know

8:09 Speaker 1: what he's that individual still on this.

8:12 Speaker 2: Bob didn't say to him, Hey, Bob, what the fuck

8:14 Speaker 2: happened to your car?

8:16 Speaker 1: You know, that's a good question. I don't remember if

8:19 Speaker 1: people asked him about his car. So he's a pride

8:21 Speaker 1: in his car, so it actually was probably more upsetting

8:23 Speaker 1: to him personally. The kind of car.

8:25 Speaker 2: It was, like a Toyota or something, so okay, Yeah,

8:28 Speaker 2: so all of a sudden as toyotas fucked. Yeah, okay,

8:31 Speaker 2: And so did he have to report this? Is this

8:36 Speaker 2: something that he.

8:37 Speaker 1: Did not report it to my knowledge to anybody. It

8:40 Speaker 1: wasn't until he reported it to us about five years

8:42 Speaker 1: later that it happened.

8:45 Speaker 2: So are those these kind of experiences something that a

8:50 Speaker 2: lot of these pilots are embarrassed about discussing or have

8:54 Speaker 2: apprehension about discussing because it could be ridiculed.

8:57 Speaker 1: Yeah. A lot of people that are on flight status,

8:59 Speaker 1: they don't want to be sent to the psych right.

9:01 Speaker 1: You know, there's a whole aerospace physiology kind of empire

9:04 Speaker 1: in the military that and you know, if you're an

9:07 Speaker 1: operator or you know, a guy miss missile key turner,

9:11 Speaker 1: you're on what they call a personal reliability program. You're

9:14 Speaker 1: taking like you know, Thailand, all you got to report it.

9:17 Speaker 1: If you have a fever, you got to report it

9:19 Speaker 1: because you're, you know, in control nuclear weapons when you're

9:22 Speaker 1: on duty. So yeah, and so this idea of being

9:25 Speaker 1: predisposed to fantasy, that's also something that they sort of

9:30 Speaker 1: talk to these people about or try to get a

9:33 Speaker 1: gauge of. Yeah. Yeah, these are people that are very

9:36 Speaker 1: sober minded. I mean this individual was early in the morning,

9:39 Speaker 1: go into work, not under the influence of anything. And

9:43 Speaker 1: that person had a similar clearance as mine. No ts

9:46 Speaker 1: c I, so you know we've gone through. Yes, it

9:49 Speaker 1: was a top secret you know, since the Department of

9:51 Speaker 1: Information clearance and you know, just like myself, I've been

9:55 Speaker 1: through multiple polygraphs in my career. So did this individual.

9:59 Speaker 2: So does this have any idea or any theories about

10:04 Speaker 2: why this thing was following him?

10:06 Speaker 1: No, That's what freaked him out the most because he

10:10 Speaker 1: didn't have any experience in his life like this. It

10:12 Speaker 1: like totally blew his mind. When he looked out his

10:14 Speaker 1: moon roof and then looked out the side of his

10:18 Speaker 1: car door and saw this three hundred foot triangle. It

10:21 Speaker 1: was like pre dawn sky, but it was darker than

10:25 Speaker 1: the pre down sky, and it had this like plasma edges,

10:29 Speaker 1: like it was like purplish glowing edges, and these three

10:33 Speaker 1: lights that had like these omni directional like almost like

10:36 Speaker 1: pole lights, you know, how there's you can't really tell

10:38 Speaker 1: where the light sources. And it was totally trippy. And

10:41 Speaker 1: that's just one example of many anecdotal with some evidence,

10:46 Speaker 1: you know, pilot stories, and that's what made me dig

10:49 Speaker 1: deeper and I started, you know, cultivating my network, Like

10:54 Speaker 1: has the government studied this before? This wasn't just asap

10:56 Speaker 1: and a tip and blue book and all this shit

10:58 Speaker 1: in the past. Right, there's this seems serious, So like,

11:01 Speaker 1: certainly the government has looked at this, and you know,

11:04 Speaker 1: I went to search for that program and that's what

11:06 Speaker 1: I ended up whistleblowing on.

11:07 Speaker 2: Right, So when you what was how did you initially

11:12 Speaker 2: discover this program? And like what was your first encounter

11:15 Speaker 2: with the information?

11:17 Speaker 1: A very senior individual in the Intel community came to

11:22 Speaker 1: me when I guess I was asking a lot of

11:26 Speaker 1: questions because I'm a very inquisitive guy, and it was like, hey,

11:29 Speaker 1: we I need to introduce you to somebody. You know.

11:33 Speaker 1: He listed that certain person's academic credentials which were beyond approach,

11:37 Speaker 1: you know, PhD level education clearance resume was insane. I'm like, well, okay, sure,

11:43 Speaker 1: I'll talk to this person. And and I ended up

11:46 Speaker 1: meeting that person in a you know, uh, top secret facility,

11:50 Speaker 1: and you know, he started to discussing like, hey, there

11:54 Speaker 1: was a program. I was on it, and you know,

11:59 Speaker 1: we were verse engineering crash material that we've recovered over

12:03 Speaker 1: the decades, you know, And he's like, I'm not joking,

12:07 Speaker 1: you know, you know, you know what we're telling you

12:09 Speaker 1: because you're you have you guys have to report to

12:11 Speaker 1: the Deputy Secretary of Defense in Congress on this matter, right,

12:14 Speaker 1: And we were we were actively briefing like Secretary Esper,

12:19 Speaker 1: Deputy Secretary nor Quist, you know, other cabinet level folks, right,

12:26 Speaker 1: And it's like, there's a you know, there must be

12:28 Speaker 1: there's an oversight issue because you're the UAP Task Force.

12:31 Speaker 1: You should be read into this stuff because like why

12:35 Speaker 1: spend the taxpayers, you know, dollars looking at stuff that

12:38 Speaker 1: we already have data on, right. So that's and that

12:43 Speaker 1: spooked to me. And that was like fall of twenty nineteen.

12:46 Speaker 1: And you know, I don't take a guy's word for it.

12:48 Speaker 1: I'm like, you know what, myself and might trusted colleagues

12:52 Speaker 1: that had a lot, a lot of special accesses like me.

12:56 Speaker 1: You know, we cultivated our network and we ultimately interviewed

13:00 Speaker 1: about forty people or so, all the way up to

13:03 Speaker 1: multi star generals, directors of agencies, mid level guys that

13:08 Speaker 1: literally touched it, worked inside of it. All the stuff

13:12 Speaker 1: they brought intel reports for me to look at, you know, documents,

13:17 Speaker 1: and a lot of that I could cross verify with

13:21 Speaker 1: other oral sources at my high level colleagues or I

13:25 Speaker 1: talked to and you know, it checked out, especially when

13:30 Speaker 1: I had enough information on and I know who specifically

13:35 Speaker 1: to ask like, hey, well I want read into this,

13:38 Speaker 1: like I'm on the UAP task Force. And we went

13:41 Speaker 1: to those i'll call them gatekeepers for the lack of

13:43 Speaker 1: a better term, and they basically said fuck you to

13:46 Speaker 1: me in my colleagues.

13:48 Speaker 2: H So, why were these other people willing to discuss

13:52 Speaker 2: this with you?

13:54 Speaker 1: Well, they determined I didn't need to know. I was

13:56 Speaker 1: already cleared at such a high level handling presidential material

14:01 Speaker 1: and everything. It's like Dave needs to know. And they

14:05 Speaker 1: felt that coming to us it was a form of

14:08 Speaker 1: a protected disclosure. They felt that they weren't really violating

14:12 Speaker 1: anything because you know, we were the i'll call it

14:16 Speaker 1: the investigatory body for the Department of Defense and the

14:20 Speaker 1: Intelligence community and Congress at the time, and they you know,

14:24 Speaker 1: you are allowed to you know, disclose to a government

14:29 Speaker 1: official in an official capacity, and I you know, did that,

14:32 Speaker 1: and of course I protected those people, and and do

14:34 Speaker 1: know I took those people, a lot of them, and

14:37 Speaker 1: they brought them to the Intelligence Community Inspector General when

14:40 Speaker 1: I found my complaint, because I don't want people to,

14:43 Speaker 1: you know, hear it from a secondhand source, you know,

14:45 Speaker 1: people call hearsay whatever, though I have some firsthand knowledge.

14:49 Speaker 1: I eventually talk about someday, I'm trying to get it cleared,

14:52 Speaker 1: but through through security processes, so they could hear it

14:58 Speaker 1: and hear the details, like you who, what, when, where, why,

15:01 Speaker 1: Where the shit is, who's in control of it? What

15:05 Speaker 1: are the cover programs, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So,

15:09 Speaker 1: and that's what deemed my complaint credible and urgent in

15:12 Speaker 1: July twenty twenty two, which is a so that my complaint, yes,

15:18 Speaker 1: was about reprisal too. I filed that separately eventually to

15:21 Speaker 1: the Department of Defense Inspector General, and that's an ongoing investigation.

15:25 Speaker 1: But it was my Congressional Oversight UAP crash retrieval allegations

15:30 Speaker 1: that was deemed credible and urgent. It was sent to

15:33 Speaker 1: the Director National Intelligence, and then it was sent to

15:36 Speaker 1: the Congressional intelligence committees. Around that time, July of twenty

15:40 Speaker 1: twenty two, and I eventually went to Congress in December

15:44 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. And it's a crazy story why I

15:46 Speaker 1: took so long, fucking nuts, But I provided total about

15:51 Speaker 1: eleven and a half to twelve hours of classified testimony

15:56 Speaker 1: to the congressional staffers and their lawyers for both the

16:00 Speaker 1: House and the Senate, and I went, you know, full

16:03 Speaker 1: open kimono. I mean, I told them as much as

16:06 Speaker 1: I could within my time slide if you will.

16:08 Speaker 2: So this is obviously very compartmentalized where there's only a

16:14 Speaker 2: few people that know about this information and they're not

16:18 Speaker 2: allowed to discuss it with other people. When did this

16:21 Speaker 2: all start? I mean, is this out of roswell? Is

16:25 Speaker 2: it pre date that?

16:26 Speaker 1: Like?

16:27 Speaker 2: When when did they first realize that there are things

16:31 Speaker 2: that cannot be explained or can't be explained through conventional means?

16:35 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the program goes back aways. The precise

16:40 Speaker 1: beginning of it I can't talk about. But I did

16:44 Speaker 1: the security stuff. But I did talk about publicly the

16:47 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty three retrieval, and I did that tactically, and

16:51 Speaker 1: I ran that through the Security Approval Office because I

16:54 Speaker 1: wanted to show that this is much older, and it's international.

16:59 Speaker 1: It's not like a thing. I mean that the stuff

17:01 Speaker 1: is landing or crashing around the world, and unexpected countries

17:07 Speaker 1: have had this happen. And that's why I pick that

17:09 Speaker 1: because I thought that was an interesting case. And then

17:12 Speaker 1: of course the you know, Pope pi Is the twelfth

17:14 Speaker 1: and the Vatican were involved back channeling it through the

17:17 Speaker 1: OSS which became the CIA later to FDR, and that's

17:21 Speaker 1: how the US knew something weird happened in Italy during

17:24 Speaker 1: well right before World War Two.

17:26 Speaker 2: But so this is thirty three was the first like documented, Ah,

17:32 Speaker 2: that is the earliest one I can talk about. Yeah,

17:35 Speaker 2: this is something that predates that.

17:38 Speaker 1: You could infer that. You could infer that.

17:40 Speaker 2: Yeah, so this thirty three to one you said was

17:42 Speaker 2: in Italy.

17:43 Speaker 1: Yeah, Magenta, So it's I'm bad at geography. I think

17:46 Speaker 1: that's like a Lombardi region. It's like northern northwest Italy.

17:50 Speaker 1: And what's the story behind it? So basically it looked

17:57 Speaker 1: like it crashed, right. The original shape most likely was

18:00 Speaker 1: like a lenticular disc like crafts, you know, with like

18:04 Speaker 1: a two dinner plates, so like two dinner plates, you know,

18:08 Speaker 1: smushed together. Right, the hump and there's like a you know,

18:11 Speaker 1: like a bubble on top of the classic classic like yeah,

18:14 Speaker 1: like that like that, but it looks like when it

18:18 Speaker 1: hits the edges broke off, so it became this like

18:21 Speaker 1: bell or acorn shaped thing and there was nothing in it.

18:27 Speaker 1: It was like just an artifact, you know, there was

18:29 Speaker 1: no biological remnants, if you will. So it's so funny

18:33 Speaker 1: because the Italians were so confused. They actually called up

18:39 Speaker 1: the Germans and they were like, is this one of

18:40 Speaker 1: your vundavaffa? Like what the hell just crashed in northern Italy, Mussolini.

18:46 Speaker 1: And this is all publicly available information because some Italian

18:49 Speaker 1: researchers found all these original documents that some people were

18:54 Speaker 1: sitting on for years in Italy. Uh, you know, they

18:56 Speaker 1: put a gag order on the press, et cetera, and yeah,

19:00 Speaker 1: Selini asked the Germans to come down, and of course

19:02 Speaker 1: the Germans came down and they were like, uh, that

19:05 Speaker 1: is not ours, but let's look at it together. So

19:10 Speaker 1: that's kind of perhaps a tertiary reason the kind of

19:15 Speaker 1: axis powers got together. I'm not saying that's like the reason,

19:18 Speaker 1: but I think the Italians and the Germans were so

19:20 Speaker 1: intrigued with what they found. From like an artifact perspective,

19:24 Speaker 1: there was at least some scientific and military collaboration during

19:28 Speaker 1: the war, the details of which I'm not sure of,

19:32 Speaker 1: but I know people that know that specific event that

19:35 Speaker 1: are currently still INTEL officers within this program in detail.

19:40 Speaker 2: But so, was there witnesses to the crash or some

19:43 Speaker 2: sort of an understanding that something had crash landed and

19:46 Speaker 2: then they discovered it?

19:47 Speaker 1: Yeah, I forget the precise discovery. I don't know if

19:52 Speaker 1: it was like local police officers or local farmers found

19:56 Speaker 1: in the field, something like that. I don't want to misspeak.

19:59 Speaker 1: I'm I assume some of the Italian researchers might have

20:02 Speaker 1: some fact witnesses that can orally say oh, yeah, my

20:05 Speaker 1: great grandfather found it or something like that.

20:07 Speaker 2: But I don't remember. What was the scale of this vehicle.

20:11 Speaker 1: It was probably like like twenty feet by ten feet

20:14 Speaker 1: something like that. Not super huge, but kind of big.

20:17 Speaker 2: Do they think that this was a drone? Do they

20:19 Speaker 2: think that this was occupied?

20:21 Speaker 1: There was nothing in it, So if it was piloted,

20:27 Speaker 1: if you will, by some sentience, I mean, your your

20:29 Speaker 1: guess is as good as mine. So hm, So what

20:33 Speaker 1: happened to that vehicle, so we knew where it was

20:37 Speaker 1: being stored at a particular location after the crash, and

20:42 Speaker 1: then the military came in and we grabbed it towards

20:45 Speaker 1: the end of the war, you know, nineteen forty four,

20:47 Speaker 1: nineteen forty five, because like I said, Popious the twelfth

20:51 Speaker 1: already kind of let FDR know, I had the Pope

20:55 Speaker 1: get involved because well Italy. Well, interestingly enough, there's like

20:59 Speaker 1: a whole history of human intelligence prior to World War

21:03 Speaker 1: Two and old money, the Vatican, the Italian mob, kind

21:08 Speaker 1: of the old country boys did a lot of informal

21:12 Speaker 1: intelligence collection for the US and there's probably some books

21:17 Speaker 1: you can read on it. But it's really interesting. You know,

21:19 Speaker 1: human intelligence collection wasn't really formalized until the Office of

21:23 Speaker 1: Strategic Services the OSS, which became the CIA in nineteen

21:27 Speaker 1: forty seven. You had you Paul Mellen and all these

21:32 Speaker 1: other affluent guys of all these old money families that

21:35 Speaker 1: basically created the CIA. So that's probably the reason why.

21:41 Speaker 2: So this thing that was recovered, this was the first

21:46 Speaker 2: documented one that the United States had access to.

21:51 Speaker 1: I can't get into if it was the first or not,

21:53 Speaker 1: but okay, it was an early one, very early.

21:55 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's almost one hundred years ago. Yes, And

21:57 Speaker 2: so they take this thing and then they bring.

22:00 Speaker 1: It where.

22:02 Speaker 2: Hey, yeah, I can't I can't get into those can't

22:04 Speaker 2: get into that, Okay, So they bring it somewhere in

22:06 Speaker 2: the United States. And was the attempt to try to

22:11 Speaker 2: back engineer this thing, was the attempt to try to

22:13 Speaker 2: understand what it was.

22:16 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, first of it, obviously, it's understanding the situation, right,

22:19 Speaker 1: what do we have our hands on? And and like

22:22 Speaker 1: I've said in some other videos and stuff, you know

22:24 Speaker 1: that we took the Manhattan Project secrecy and overlaid on

22:27 Speaker 1: this issue because that secrecy worked well for atomic bomb

22:31 Speaker 1: developments and whatnot. And certainly this whole program in a

22:36 Speaker 1: nutshell for to like summarize the ninety plus years of history.

22:41 Speaker 1: It is a reverse engineering program to garner some kind

22:46 Speaker 1: of insight. And of course not a lot of the

22:50 Speaker 1: things that we've learned from it are like directly, you know,

22:54 Speaker 1: ripped off the technology we found, but it has inspired

22:58 Speaker 1: other innovations that made its way into other US classified

23:01 Speaker 1: programs over the year for national defense reasons, you know.

23:04 Speaker 1: And it's a myriad of different things So.

23:07 Speaker 2: The UFO folklore is that this is where fiber optics

23:11 Speaker 2: were discovered.

23:12 Speaker 1: First, Yeah, I'm not going to break the seal on

23:14 Speaker 1: anything we've discovered or anything like that.

23:16 Speaker 2: And yeah, it's I can't are you and what you

23:21 Speaker 2: can discuss and what you can't discuss? And why why

23:24 Speaker 2: do they let you discuss.

23:25 Speaker 1: Any of this? Yeah, So anything sensitive that I want

23:28 Speaker 1: to say, as it relates to like US government activity,

23:31 Speaker 1: whether it be intelligence stuff, military stuff, et cetera, I

23:33 Speaker 1: have to submit it through what they call DOPS or

23:36 Speaker 1: DoD Office of Pre Publication and Security Review. That is

23:39 Speaker 1: something anybody who's been an Intel officer, anybody with like

23:42 Speaker 1: a clearance, has to submit that kind of stuff. Now, obviously,

23:47 Speaker 1: if you're writing a book about gardening, you don't have to,

23:49 Speaker 1: but if you're going to talk about anything military and

23:52 Speaker 1: intelligence related, you have to submit. So it's kind of

23:56 Speaker 1: a catch twenty two for this office. Right, they're only

23:58 Speaker 1: looking at it from a secure already perspective. They're not

24:02 Speaker 1: vouching for it or anything like that. And that's like

24:05 Speaker 1: any author, Right, they could write a book about Navy

24:07 Speaker 1: seals and they're not vouching for the story. They're vouching

24:10 Speaker 1: that you didn't say any nasty code words, you didn't

24:14 Speaker 1: burn a specific ongoing classified program. And for them, I mean,

24:19 Speaker 1: I'm not in their uodle loop, but certainly it's a

24:22 Speaker 1: catch twenty two for them, where if they want to

24:25 Speaker 1: redact and they propose a redaction, they're like, hey, Dave,

24:28 Speaker 1: you can't say these sentences. You can rewrite it and resubmit.

24:31 Speaker 1: You know, we can't necessarily tell you what agency said

24:35 Speaker 1: to redact it, but you're not allowed to say this.

24:40 Speaker 1: They would be basically self certifying. There's a there there.

24:43 Speaker 1: So in my opinion, probably the policy is like, if

24:47 Speaker 1: it has to deal with the subject, we're not saying anything,

24:49 Speaker 1: we're not proposing any reactions. As long as he's not

24:52 Speaker 1: burning a conventional program, we kind of have to allow

24:58 Speaker 1: him to exercise his First Amendment rights. And so I

25:01 Speaker 1: think it's like a catch twenty two for that office

25:03 Speaker 1: is kind of the long or the short of the

25:05 Speaker 1: long answer.

25:06 Speaker 2: So this is essentially one of the very early ones.

25:09 Speaker 2: Nineteen thirty three. How many crash retrieval incidents have there been?

25:16 Speaker 1: It is double digit, these specific numbers. I do know. However,

25:22 Speaker 1: I can't discuss that and I know it sounds like, oh,

25:24 Speaker 1: I'm being koy or whatever, but you know this show

25:29 Speaker 1: any other interviews I do, right, you know, Ford Intelligence

25:31 Speaker 1: Services are watching, and it's like, I'm not here to

25:34 Speaker 1: help Russia in China calibrate their intelligence collection. Like, oh,

25:39 Speaker 1: Dave said, it's this number, we missed a couple. Shit,

25:43 Speaker 1: let's put it out for the KGB, SVR and GRU

25:46 Speaker 1: are now going to hit the streets to try to

25:48 Speaker 1: figure out which ones they miss. So I'm here to

25:50 Speaker 1: protect national security and I'm just trying to put all

25:54 Speaker 1: the general topics out there for public conversation to hold

25:58 Speaker 1: our government accountable. Really so because I'm here as a

26:03 Speaker 1: fact witness because we have a you know, a constitutional

26:07 Speaker 1: oversight issue because this program has not been you know,

26:13 Speaker 1: reported to Congress in the appropriate way, you know. And

26:16 Speaker 1: I can get into a senator I talked to that

26:21 Speaker 1: has died recently, So I can, you know, explain to

26:24 Speaker 1: you why I'm so sure. Besides what I read, which

26:29 Speaker 1: we can get into what intel reports I read, I

26:31 Speaker 1: did get some stuff cleared. So during my investigation, I'm like,

26:36 Speaker 1: you know what, I need to talk to somebody at

26:39 Speaker 1: the highest levels, right, So and this will give you

26:41 Speaker 1: an idea of the kind of people we talked to.

26:44 Speaker 1: And this is the only one I'm going to talk

26:45 Speaker 1: about using their name because they died two years ago.

26:48 Speaker 1: So in spring twenty twenty one, I actually flew with

26:52 Speaker 1: a couple of colleagues of mine to Las Vegas and

26:55 Speaker 1: I met with Senator Harry Reid about nine months before

26:59 Speaker 1: he died. And of course he's a private citizen now,

27:02 Speaker 1: and I wanted to brief him on the topic, and

27:06 Speaker 1: I wanted to get his kind of thought leadership on it,

27:08 Speaker 1: because you know, he was a Gang of eight member, right,

27:10 Speaker 1: you know, which is the top most cleared senators and congressman.

27:14 Speaker 1: He was the majority leader, for God's sake, so the Senate,

27:17 Speaker 1: and I knew, you know, he helped sponsor the ASAPP

27:21 Speaker 1: program that I mentioned and where they looked at Skinwalker

27:24 Speaker 1: ranch and some other things. And I wanted to understand,

27:27 Speaker 1: like what does Harry Reid actually know, Like why did he,

27:31 Speaker 1: you know, give twenty one million dollars to DIA and

27:34 Speaker 1: Bigelow Aerospace for this. So I'm sitting there in Harry

27:39 Speaker 1: Reid's living room, you know, right next to him with

27:42 Speaker 1: some other witnesses that were there with me, and he

27:45 Speaker 1: straight up says, He's like, yeah, I knew we had

27:48 Speaker 1: UFO material. I was denied access for decades. I tried

27:53 Speaker 1: to get access. And then he explained some of his

27:57 Speaker 1: efforts during ASAPP and I was like, holy shit, did

28:02 Speaker 1: the former Majority leader just say did he just confirmed

28:05 Speaker 1: this to me as well? You know, I was already

28:07 Speaker 1: talking to these amazing high level people, but I have

28:10 Speaker 1: Harry Reid literally saying yes, we have material, and you

28:15 Speaker 1: know he knew it was non human. Did Harry Reid

28:17 Speaker 1: have personal experience with this? I don't know if he's

28:20 Speaker 1: had any personal stuff in his personal life.

28:23 Speaker 2: I mean, did he see it?

28:24 Speaker 1: Did he? He said in terms of seeing the material himself,

28:29 Speaker 1: he said he was denied access for years on decades

28:35 Speaker 1: was his term. And he actually told me on behalf

28:38 Speaker 1: of me he was going so he had like a

28:40 Speaker 1: weekly call with President Joe Biden at the time, and

28:44 Speaker 1: he straight up said to me he was going to

28:46 Speaker 1: talk to President Biden about this issue literally, and then

28:53 Speaker 1: what he was telling me about os APP, I was like,

28:57 Speaker 1: holy shit, I have like twenty other people that told

29:00 Speaker 1: me this. Dude, So the real history, what fucking Osapp

29:04 Speaker 1: was because I think there's a lot of people out

29:06 Speaker 1: there that think where they were looking at ghosts Skinwalker Ranch. Yes,

29:11 Speaker 1: they went to the ranch as a secondary and tertiary objective,

29:15 Speaker 1: but the real reason so, like, there's a document that

29:20 Speaker 1: came out a couple of years ago through FOYA from

29:23 Speaker 1: the Defense Intelligence Agency. There was this special access program

29:27 Speaker 1: request that Harry Reid. You might have seen this, I

29:30 Speaker 1: think like George and Napp and company have reported on

29:32 Speaker 1: this that he sent to the Deputy Secretary of Defense,

29:36 Speaker 1: William Lynn, and it was asking for one of the

29:39 Speaker 1: most serious SAPs you can ask for what they call

29:41 Speaker 1: a bigoted waved special access program. So waved means it's

29:47 Speaker 1: limited congressional reporting. That is a class of special access programs,

29:51 Speaker 1: and bigoted means it's like by name, and it's like

29:54 Speaker 1: it was like you can read the FOYA document. It

29:56 Speaker 1: was like, you know, Harry Reid, James Enhoff, Luella's, et cetera.

30:01 Speaker 1: And I'm like, why are you asking for the most

30:03 Speaker 1: serious SAP to be created for a program that ostensibly

30:09 Speaker 1: is looking at Skinwalker Ranch and stuff? And it doesn't

30:11 Speaker 1: make any sense. So what really happened there? And uh,

30:17 Speaker 1: you know Harry me. Harry Reid, God bless his soul,

30:20 Speaker 1: made this disclosure a couple weeks after we met in

30:24 Speaker 1: the New Yorker, and you can look this up. I

30:26 Speaker 1: think it was like a May twenty twenty one New

30:28 Speaker 1: Yorker story where he says I knew for decades and

30:32 Speaker 1: he made this disclosure, not me, So I'm gonna say

30:34 Speaker 1: the name of the contractor. Harry Reid said this. You know,

30:38 Speaker 1: we knew that lockeed Martin had this material for decades.

30:41 Speaker 1: I tried to get access and I was denied, and

30:43 Speaker 1: specifically with the Lockheed Martin stuff he was talking about

30:46 Speaker 1: during the ASAP program and for the people who are

30:50 Speaker 1: on this program, I submitted this shit. The dopster got

30:53 Speaker 1: this cleared, so don't freak out. But I'm telling the

30:55 Speaker 1: truth here. So Locke Martin wanted to dive vest itself

31:01 Speaker 1: from this material at a specific facility that's known to

31:04 Speaker 1: me that I provided to the Inspector general like street

31:08 Speaker 1: address all that shit, right, And the idea was if

31:12 Speaker 1: they made a catcher's mint, a security catchers mint for

31:14 Speaker 1: this shit at you know, most serious set possible. The

31:18 Speaker 1: contractor and the other government customer which was the Central

31:22 Speaker 1: Intelligence Agency for that specific lockeed material. And it was

31:27 Speaker 1: shit that they recovered from like the fifties and stuff,

31:29 Speaker 1: and it was like bits and pieces of of of

31:32 Speaker 1: like hall structure or shit like that, and so they

31:38 Speaker 1: were going to tech transfer its and the twenty one

31:41 Speaker 1: or twenty two million dollars was actually for Big Low

31:45 Speaker 1: Aerospace to build out, you know, facilities in Las Vegas

31:49 Speaker 1: and material analysis equipment. And I've seen I have. I

31:52 Speaker 1: saw the staff meeting slides, I saw the paperwork, like

31:55 Speaker 1: there's a paperwork trail I've seen on this shit. And

31:58 Speaker 1: I talked to the people involved in this program, and

32:01 Speaker 1: you know, even Jim Lakatski, who ran the program, who's

32:05 Speaker 1: retired DA officer, PhD in engineering, even made this disclosure

32:08 Speaker 1: in his book skin Walkers at the Pentagon, UH, page

32:12 Speaker 1: one fifty three. And he also made a disclosure a

32:17 Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, I think it was on Weaponized

32:21 Speaker 1: podcast with Jeremy Corbel and George Knapp, where he's like, yeah,

32:26 Speaker 1: we had a whole craft and we broke into the

32:28 Speaker 1: hall and we gained access. And he ran that through

32:32 Speaker 1: the same you know, security process as I did. And

32:34 Speaker 1: so Jim Lakatski, who ran this program, is also going

32:38 Speaker 1: on the record that he is aware personally aware of

32:42 Speaker 1: intact vehicles and everything.

32:44 Speaker 2: But while they gained access, what does that mean by

32:47 Speaker 2: what method did to gain access?

32:49 Speaker 1: The way he wrote it in his book, I can

32:51 Speaker 1: only infer it sounded forcible, so through some kind of

32:56 Speaker 1: you know, means I don't know if it was like

32:58 Speaker 1: CO two laser or something. I don't actually know how

33:00 Speaker 1: they gained access, but imagine it was not permissive access.

33:04 Speaker 1: They like broke into the damn thing.

33:06 Speaker 2: So this thing is essentially sealed, and it's some sort

33:12 Speaker 2: of what was the shape of this thing?

33:15 Speaker 1: The Lkatski didn't disclose the shape on this particular vehicle

33:19 Speaker 1: as far as I what about the dimensions. I don't

33:22 Speaker 1: believe he did in his book, but I think it's

33:24 Speaker 1: like chapter eleven in his new book or something like

33:26 Speaker 1: land Status. But he did make that disclosure on video

33:30 Speaker 1: as well. And I do encourage both the Arrow Office,

33:33 Speaker 1: which is the do d's UAP Task Force successor, and

33:37 Speaker 1: Congress to ask doctor James Lakatski to come in for

33:40 Speaker 1: classified testimony because the disclosure in his one book that

33:45 Speaker 1: he wrote with Colin Keller, her George Knapp, and then

33:47 Speaker 1: the second book, well the guy saying he has close

33:50 Speaker 1: personal knowledge he needs to go to Congress. So you know,

33:56 Speaker 1: I don't know James Lakatski, but I do encourage him

33:58 Speaker 1: to be a fact witness. But going back to that

34:01 Speaker 1: transfer with Lockeed, long story short, can get in all

34:04 Speaker 1: the nuanced details, but basically the CIA said fuck you

34:11 Speaker 1: to DIA and Lockeed and it was totally killed. So

34:15 Speaker 1: Harry Reid's request to get the material transfer to the

34:19 Speaker 1: ASET program was totally killed because of bureaucracy and kind

34:23 Speaker 1: of fiefdom stuff. So they used that money and then

34:27 Speaker 1: they you know, they wrote those Defense Intelligence Reference Documents.

34:31 Speaker 1: The DRDs is a lot of people who's familiar with

34:34 Speaker 1: it listening will know about. And then they did look

34:38 Speaker 1: at Skinwalker Ranch because they thought that studying kind of

34:44 Speaker 1: the more woo woo phenomenon aspects of this. And I've

34:48 Speaker 1: never been to the ranch, so I've never experienced the

34:50 Speaker 1: ranch for myself, but you know, obviously I think we

34:53 Speaker 1: both know a bunch of people that have been to

34:54 Speaker 1: the ranch and have seen some trippy stuff or at

34:56 Speaker 1: least alleged that they thought that would be able to

35:01 Speaker 1: gain currency with the with the program, you know, and

35:04 Speaker 1: in this case CIA to unlock the key for the

35:08 Speaker 1: lockeyed Martin stuff, which actually, I'll tell you right now

35:11 Speaker 1: it's like so weird to say that, but I ran

35:13 Speaker 1: that shit through security. To me, it's like an out

35:17 Speaker 1: of body experience to talk about that kind of detailed

35:20 Speaker 1: sensitivity stuff like that. But basically, they studied the ranch

35:25 Speaker 1: to gain favor, to be like, hey, look at all

35:27 Speaker 1: this stuff for figuring out this paranormal stuff that's somehow

35:30 Speaker 1: connected to the phenomenon on the ranch. But ultimately they

35:33 Speaker 1: never gained favor with the government customer, and then the

35:36 Speaker 1: program kind of died a slow death because of a

35:39 Speaker 1: lot of politics in the Pentagon. So that's kind of

35:42 Speaker 1: the long but short of it. With the ASAPP program

35:46 Speaker 1: that you know, I wanted to make sure the public

35:48 Speaker 1: knew it's not what you think it was. There was

35:52 Speaker 1: some other stuff behind the scenes that you know, I

35:55 Speaker 1: wanted to speak truth to power on.

35:56 Speaker 2: So this particular vehicle that they had covered from the

36:00 Speaker 2: nineteen fifties, what was the source of it? Where do

36:04 Speaker 2: they find it?

36:05 Speaker 1: Those details.

36:08 Speaker 2: I did not get cleared so yeah, so they have

36:12 Speaker 2: in possession this thing, they gain access to this thing,

36:15 Speaker 2: and what do they report once they've gained access to it?

36:18 Speaker 1: Oh, those details? I do not know that. That's probably

36:22 Speaker 1: a question for doctor Lakatski. I presume he knows those details.

36:26 Speaker 1: I don't know.

36:27 Speaker 2: So this thing is housed somewhere.

36:32 Speaker 1: It is, yes, currently it may still be in the

36:36 Speaker 1: same location that I know about.

36:37 Speaker 2: Yes, And how many people have access to this and

36:42 Speaker 2: how did they prevent this information from being released?

36:47 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it goes back to the compartmentation

36:50 Speaker 1: and kind of the ecosystem of secrecy in this community, right,

36:53 Speaker 1: you know, only a limited amount of people, you know,

36:56 Speaker 1: at least at the time, you know, unlockeed Martin's side

37:00 Speaker 1: and Lockie Martin was complaining basically like, look like the

37:03 Speaker 1: secrecy is ridiculous. We can't even bring the right engineers.

37:07 Speaker 1: Like imagine you're like a hot engineer at engineer, No

37:11 Speaker 1: hot shot engineer. It might be hot too, I don't know,

37:14 Speaker 1: but that you know, you're fresh out of grad school,

37:16 Speaker 1: maybe you're like the best PhD electrical engineer. You want

37:20 Speaker 1: to do cul shit, you want to publish an I

37:21 Speaker 1: triple E. You want to like, you know, climb the

37:24 Speaker 1: ladder corporately, you know, and that kind of thing a

37:29 Speaker 1: Locke Martin executive comes to you. Yeah, dude, Uh, you're

37:33 Speaker 1: gonna I can reach into something really crazy, but you're

37:36 Speaker 1: never going to publish papers on it. You're never gonna

37:39 Speaker 1: be able to tell people what you worked on. And

37:41 Speaker 1: it's probably not the most career enhancing. But if you

37:44 Speaker 1: want to work on something cool, but I can't tell

37:47 Speaker 1: you because it's unacknowledged until you sign this piece of

37:50 Speaker 1: paper non disclosure agreement, uh uh, you know. Sorry, but

37:57 Speaker 1: here's the raw deal. And you know a lot of

37:59 Speaker 1: people are like, fuck you no. And it's not like

38:03 Speaker 1: Lucky Martin could broadcast this to universities, like come work

38:07 Speaker 1: for us, You'll work on crazy shits. But that is

38:11 Speaker 1: very akin to a lot of other black programs in

38:14 Speaker 1: the government that are adding knowledge in nature. You don't

38:17 Speaker 1: know what you're signing them for until you get bred in.

38:19 Speaker 1: And I've you know, I've been brief to a lot

38:21 Speaker 1: of that kind of conventional stuff in my career.

38:23 Speaker 2: So that's one of the problems that Bob Bazar and

38:28 Speaker 2: I'd love to get your take on boblozar On. One

38:30 Speaker 2: of the things that he talked about was that science

38:34 Speaker 2: can't really operate in a vacuum when you separate the

38:37 Speaker 2: metallurgists from the propulsions experts from the biological experts, like

38:43 Speaker 2: and they're not allowed to communicate with each other, and

38:44 Speaker 2: they're not allowed to bring in other experts to have

38:46 Speaker 2: different Well.

38:47 Speaker 1: That was the frustration that I had some friends that

38:50 Speaker 1: I've known my entire career, like almost fourteen years, right,

38:53 Speaker 1: I literally know them personally. I had a relationship with them,

38:57 Speaker 1: but they ended up you know, spill in the beans

39:00 Speaker 1: where you know, Look, we're on the program. I'm an

39:03 Speaker 1: engineer for X, Y, and Z. We can't even cross

39:07 Speaker 1: talk across like the cubicles, for God's sakes, Like I can't.

39:11 Speaker 1: I'm looking at material X doing some X ray diffraction

39:16 Speaker 1: testing on it, which is like shooting a stream of

39:18 Speaker 1: electrons and seeing how how it bends and looking at

39:21 Speaker 1: the atomic arrangements. I can't even like cross talk that

39:24 Speaker 1: with another aspect of the program. This is like ridiculous,

39:27 Speaker 1: And that's kind of their frustration. Yeah, I know you're

39:32 Speaker 1: probably gonna ask me about Bulbazar. I know, I figured

39:34 Speaker 1: I figured as much.

39:36 Speaker 2: Why did they do that though, if everybody was already

39:38 Speaker 2: sworn to secrecy, everybody already has NDAs, it seems the

39:41 Speaker 2: most effective way of reverse engineering or at least gaining

39:45 Speaker 2: an understanding of how these things are struggled.

39:47 Speaker 1: Well, that's exactly how Manhattan was right. People working on

39:49 Speaker 1: the fuses for the bomb didn't necessarily know it was

39:53 Speaker 1: going to a nuclear weapon, and so and I've seen

39:56 Speaker 1: this kind of compartmentation is up to secrecy in other programs,

39:59 Speaker 1: and it is the aabilitating for progress. And honestly, as

40:03 Speaker 1: a former fiduciary of the taxpayer dollars, it's not the

40:07 Speaker 1: best modus operendus to do it that way. And very

40:11 Speaker 1: few people kind of had that top down, could look

40:14 Speaker 1: across the silos and see what was going on. It

40:17 Speaker 1: just became very dysfunctional. And they were afraid of people

40:20 Speaker 1: being too cross briefed into the different silos for counter

40:25 Speaker 1: espionage counter intelligence that you know they were. We're going

40:29 Speaker 1: to remember a bulk of this program is done during

40:31 Speaker 1: the Cold War, and you know, we were afraid of

40:34 Speaker 1: Russian spy Soviet moles, and so we made it ultra

40:37 Speaker 1: locked down. But to the detriment of national security. And

40:41 Speaker 1: that was one of the crazy things that got me

40:44 Speaker 1: that I wanted to whistleblow on because I'm like, this

40:46 Speaker 1: is so stupid, Like we should be making more progress

40:49 Speaker 1: on this. Were there any breaches that you're aware of

40:51 Speaker 1: where foreign agents were able to gain access to materials

40:54 Speaker 1: or an understanding of what we know? So I'll tell

40:59 Speaker 1: you about some intel documents I read that kind of

41:01 Speaker 1: obliquely answers that question. So there was sense of human

41:06 Speaker 1: derive foreign intelligence that I read. So I had access

41:10 Speaker 1: to kind of the a tip os app classified archives,

41:14 Speaker 1: and I was like thumbing through everything, and there's some

41:17 Speaker 1: other people were bringing me documents to evaluate, and I'll

41:21 Speaker 1: never forget I had to say stolen by the US

41:26 Speaker 1: an intelligence assessment from a certain foreign adversary discussing the

41:31 Speaker 1: US reverse engineering program, and I was like, and that

41:36 Speaker 1: was actually another like what the fuck? And so I

41:40 Speaker 1: had an adversary also confirmed this program literally because of

41:45 Speaker 1: exl traded intelligence, and so they certainly had a limited

41:51 Speaker 1: knowledge at least fact of that the US had a

41:54 Speaker 1: program like this a particular adversary and actually I was like, well,

41:59 Speaker 1: I want more, like I know who wrote this litter

42:02 Speaker 1: or who got it right on behalf of the United

42:04 Speaker 1: States government. So I went to that certain agency through

42:06 Speaker 1: the approved and official way, and this is kind of

42:10 Speaker 1: part of the Marius reprisals against me. The agency was like, oh, yes,

42:16 Speaker 1: we have what you're looking for, Dave. You're gonna need

42:19 Speaker 1: to sign a one time read into something, you know,

42:23 Speaker 1: Come visit us to you know, go to the vault

42:25 Speaker 1: and read it, write, you know, hard copy. But yes,

42:28 Speaker 1: we have what you're looking for. And ultimately, from what

42:33 Speaker 1: I was told by friends in higher places, my request

42:36 Speaker 1: kind of went up the flagpole at that agency, and

42:40 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the agency ghosted my boss and

42:43 Speaker 1: I for like two months. And then when I really

42:46 Speaker 1: press them hard to gain access because I'm like, I

42:49 Speaker 1: have a need to know, I need to evaluate this

42:51 Speaker 1: intelligence for fucking Congress, and they debriefed me from all

42:58 Speaker 1: my accesses is over in that other sister agency and

43:03 Speaker 1: made up some bogus excuse like I shouldn't have been

43:05 Speaker 1: brief to anything in the first place, literally, and basically

43:09 Speaker 1: gave me an administrative middle finger like bersona on grata,

43:13 Speaker 1: don't ever fucking ask us about that shit again. And

43:17 Speaker 1: I'm sure, the person who made the oops that told

43:20 Speaker 1: me they had what I was looking for probably got

43:23 Speaker 1: admonished and slapped on the wrists because I never heard

43:25 Speaker 1: from that person again, even though it was somebody I

43:28 Speaker 1: actually used to work on occasion with. So that was

43:32 Speaker 1: also another way I knew I was you know, there

43:38 Speaker 1: was a lot of smoke and fire because I, you know,

43:40 Speaker 1: had stuff like that happened to me.

43:42 Speaker 2: So this but knowing that our adversaries were aware of

43:50 Speaker 2: this reverse engineering program, are we aware of their reverse

43:55 Speaker 2: engineering programs? Yeah? Which countries are?

43:58 Speaker 1: Uh, you could probably guess and you wouldn't be Uh,

44:03 Speaker 1: it won't be too shocking, Okay, but I won't acknowledge

44:05 Speaker 1: what the US may know.

44:06 Speaker 2: Right, So are we aware of numbers in terms of

44:12 Speaker 2: like at least a rough estimate of how many are

44:14 Speaker 2: available to these other Yeah?

44:18 Speaker 1: How many?

44:18 Speaker 2: Uh that's like super more than one. Yeah, you can

44:22 Speaker 2: read into that can read into Yeah, And has anyone

44:26 Speaker 2: made any progress?

44:28 Speaker 1: Yeah? I can't get into if we've made progress, if

44:32 Speaker 1: they've made progress, because that's like straight up some national

44:35 Speaker 1: security stuff. But like I want the just to be clear,

44:39 Speaker 1: I want the US populace to learn a lot of this,

44:43 Speaker 1: and this is why, you know, another reason why I

44:45 Speaker 1: went public is like I need to call everybody else.

44:48 Speaker 1: I'm not here to admonish the entire government, mind you,

44:51 Speaker 1: but there is an element of the US government and

44:54 Speaker 1: its clear defense contractor base that you know, we have

44:58 Speaker 1: a three branch of government oversight issue. Like going back

45:01 Speaker 1: to Harry Reid, Harry Reid didn't even get access, and

45:04 Speaker 1: I fucking talked to myself to confirm that, and he

45:07 Speaker 1: said he was going to go talk to Biden because

45:11 Speaker 1: I think there needs to be a disclosure plan And

45:13 Speaker 1: this goes back to what's currently in legislation right now.

45:16 Speaker 1: That's super fucking important because ninety some odd percent of

45:23 Speaker 1: this should be open for public discovery, public analysis, and academia.

45:30 Speaker 1: This should be like at very least true nuclear programs

45:34 Speaker 1: such as nuclear physics you study in the university, nuclear

45:38 Speaker 1: weapons classified because that makes people in the pink mist

45:43 Speaker 1: that's really sensitive. We don't need everybody to know how

45:45 Speaker 1: to do that. So I think the stuff that is

45:49 Speaker 1: like legit weapons related stuff that's like straight up national

45:53 Speaker 1: superiority stuff, sure reasonably classify that. But this these programs

46:01 Speaker 1: we need to change. And that's why you saw the

46:04 Speaker 1: Schumer Amendment, right, and I think you might have read

46:07 Speaker 1: that on air or something in a previous episode. I correctly,

46:11 Speaker 1: you know, Chuck Schumer and I knew about the amendment

46:13 Speaker 1: a couple months before I went public, and that's kind

46:15 Speaker 1: of another reason why I did what I did. I'm like, Fuck,

46:19 Speaker 1: I'm like the only guy that kind of has the

46:20 Speaker 1: opportunity to do this. I know what's in the shoot,

46:24 Speaker 1: so to speak, that Chuck Schumer and his staff had

46:26 Speaker 1: with the Schumer Amendment, which is sixty seven pages of

46:29 Speaker 1: literal we want to disclose. And I'm like, I have

46:34 Speaker 1: to spike the football by going public, because you know,

46:37 Speaker 1: I can read the tea leaves on the hill, and

46:39 Speaker 1: I think that they were hesitant to do anything without

46:43 Speaker 1: being able to point to something publicly. And I'm like, oh,

46:46 Speaker 1: I'll be the fucking guy and just send it. And then,

46:51 Speaker 1: of course, a month after I went public, I guess

46:55 Speaker 1: I pushed Chuck Schumer over the ledge. And I do

46:58 Speaker 1: know he talked to the White House about the amendment too,

47:01 Speaker 1: because not like Chuck Schumer is gonna propose groundbreaking legislation

47:05 Speaker 1: like that without talking to the National Security Advisor or President,

47:09 Speaker 1: like I imagine he did so. And you know, so

47:12 Speaker 1: you have the sixty seven page amendments, right, It's called

47:15 Speaker 1: the UAP Disclosure Act of twenty twenty three, known as

47:19 Speaker 1: the Schumer Amendment. Co sponsors were Young jillibrand Rubio Rounds,

47:26 Speaker 1: Yeah and young And you know, kudos for those senators

47:29 Speaker 1: were stepping up to the plate because they know this

47:32 Speaker 1: is real. I know what meetings that they've had with

47:34 Speaker 1: certain other individuals that are you know, even more credible

47:37 Speaker 1: than myself. And so this, this act, which is like

47:41 Speaker 1: super important, is currently in conference as we speak in

47:47 Speaker 1: Capitol Hill. So the amendment is wrapped in something called

47:50 Speaker 1: the Fiscal Year twenty twenty four National Defense Authorization Act,

47:55 Speaker 1: So that is the act that funds the military basically

47:57 Speaker 1: every year. Right, So it's an amendment within this bill,

48:01 Speaker 1: and the act is really long, but the main meat

48:06 Speaker 1: of it is about halfway through the act that talks

48:08 Speaker 1: about a presidential panel or agency which is nine person

48:13 Speaker 1: and a controlled UAP disclosure plan that's six years in length,

48:18 Speaker 1: conceivably from twenty twenty four to twenty thirty. In this panel,

48:22 Speaker 1: and you can read this is a public law. Anybody

48:24 Speaker 1: can read this. They want a scientist, economists, you know,

48:28 Speaker 1: you know, sociologists, et cetera. It's kind of like who

48:32 Speaker 1: you would want to help craft the plan for the president.

48:35 Speaker 1: And this whole bill was actually built off the JFK

48:39 Speaker 1: Records Act, which I know, like they're like, well, they

48:41 Speaker 1: never released all the records, while we put some teeth

48:44 Speaker 1: in the bill, some eminent domain some other stuff that

48:47 Speaker 1: you know, kind of force the issue. Now. Granted, the

48:50 Speaker 1: chief Executive, the president has the final say. The panel

48:53 Speaker 1: can't compel the executive to do it, but like, I

48:56 Speaker 1: hope the president does and I support that. But so

49:02 Speaker 1: the Senate already passed it. They're chill with this. This

49:04 Speaker 1: is like we're good to go, and and but there's

49:07 Speaker 1: pushback in the House right now. That is, you know,

49:11 Speaker 1: part of my language, fucking ridiculous. So they're saying, for one,

49:15 Speaker 1: it's duplicating the DoD Arrow's office activities. They're doing good things.

49:21 Speaker 1: They're looking at up reports, trying to figure out what's

49:24 Speaker 1: balloons and air trash and what's weird stuff. And of

49:27 Speaker 1: course they are doing an historical review to try to

49:31 Speaker 1: understand the US's history on this too. But the problem

49:34 Speaker 1: is with that agency. It it's within the d D

49:38 Speaker 1: and I see not above. So you have an issue

49:40 Speaker 1: reaching into Department of Energy, other you know, cabinet level agencies.

49:46 Speaker 1: So you need a presidential level panel that can declassify stuff,

49:51 Speaker 1: reach into other agencies and tell, you know, certain secretaries,

49:55 Speaker 1: we're coming in. We want your stuff under presidential authority.

49:58 Speaker 1: So what's how opening in the House. From what I'm

50:02 Speaker 1: told from people on the Hill that are working the

50:04 Speaker 1: issue right now, you have the chair of the House

50:08 Speaker 1: Intel Committee, Mike Turner, who's blocking us from Ohio Dateton,

50:13 Speaker 1: Ohio area, right, Pat Weird and Metterson yes, yeah. And

50:20 Speaker 1: Mike Rogers, which I'm kind of surprised from Alabama, who's

50:23 Speaker 1: the chair of the House Armed Services Committee. So I

50:26 Speaker 1: have a problem with Mike and Mike right now. So

50:30 Speaker 1: Mike Turner, now remember I went to his committee in

50:33 Speaker 1: December last year. He wasn't there, but his staff and

50:37 Speaker 1: lawyers were, And of course he goes on Fox Business

50:42 Speaker 1: after the hearing, doesn't use my names like this whistleblower.

50:44 Speaker 1: He has no idea what he's talking about. I'm like, really,

50:49 Speaker 1: tell me, Mike, have you ever been an Intel officer

50:51 Speaker 1: or served in the military. Oh wait, you've been the

50:54 Speaker 1: mayor of Dayton, Ohio. You were voted most corrupt person

50:58 Speaker 1: in Congress a couple years ago. And pull up his

51:02 Speaker 1: pack donors. Who are his biggest donors? Lockeed raytheon Boeing? Okay, So,

51:10 Speaker 1: and first of all, if you thought you needed more

51:11 Speaker 1: information or wanted to talk to me personally, why didn't

51:14 Speaker 1: you call me back when I reported to your committee?

51:17 Speaker 1: So and furthermore, besides blocking the bill, I'm sure you're

51:22 Speaker 1: familiar with like Representative Timbershet of Alabama, and he's been

51:27 Speaker 1: very outspoken on the issue and what we may not

51:29 Speaker 1: agree with everything Tim says about conventional stuff that's you

51:32 Speaker 1: know here, no there. But you know he's been a

51:35 Speaker 1: champion on the Oversight Committee and he was, you know,

51:37 Speaker 1: one of the members that I testified in public under

51:40 Speaker 1: oath regarding this. So like and Mike Turner is looking

51:46 Speaker 1: to fund according to staffers I've talked to last two weeks,

51:50 Speaker 1: an opposition candidate for Tim's reelection in twenty twenty four. So,

51:54 Speaker 1: why is Mike Turner going out of his way to

51:57 Speaker 1: destroy the career of a career you just Tennessee representative

52:02 Speaker 1: on the Oversight Committee, And why are you blocking a bill?

52:06 Speaker 1: And it's not going to cost much couple million a

52:08 Speaker 1: year max, you know for the panel, which is like

52:11 Speaker 1: vaporware and US government speak. Right, If there's nothing to

52:15 Speaker 1: see here, why are Mike Rogers and Mike Turner in

52:18 Speaker 1: the House blocking this bill that is, in my opinion,

52:23 Speaker 1: the most important legislation for in transparency in American history.

52:28 Speaker 1: If there's nothing to see here, if I'm fucking crazy,

52:32 Speaker 1: Multistar generals I talked to are crazy. The Intel docs

52:34 Speaker 1: that I read are incorrect. They're fucking forgeries or passage

52:38 Speaker 1: material or something like that. Good friends of mine that

52:41 Speaker 1: worked on the program are bullshitting me in some consorted

52:45 Speaker 1: operation against me and my colleagues. That it would be

52:48 Speaker 1: totally crazy to even conduct that because I took precautions.

52:52 Speaker 1: Then why don't we just pass this and see what happens?

52:57 Speaker 1: And what do you think the answer? Does special interests

53:00 Speaker 1: want to keep the genie in the bottle even though

53:02 Speaker 1: the toothpaste is coming out of the tube. And I

53:04 Speaker 1: think it's like a death rattle in this industrial complex

53:08 Speaker 1: that doesn't want change. And I'm not here to be

53:12 Speaker 1: psch some total adversary I think there needs to be

53:15 Speaker 1: a truth and reconciliation process on this issue. I'm not

53:19 Speaker 1: here to throw people in jail. I'm not here for

53:22 Speaker 1: big contractors involved to lose money. I think this would

53:26 Speaker 1: be a boon and I think the leadership in these

53:29 Speaker 1: companies need to think about this where if we're open

53:32 Speaker 1: with this, you can hire people, you can push the

53:36 Speaker 1: subject into undergraduate graduates and postdoctoral programs of you know,

53:41 Speaker 1: research to study this in an unclassified just like nuclear physics.

53:46 Speaker 1: And this answers a fundamental question, uh, you know, for humanity,

53:53 Speaker 1: are we alone? Or you know what happens when we die? Well?

53:55 Speaker 1: I don't know about that, but are we alone? Well,

53:58 Speaker 1: the answer is we're not alone. I know that with

54:01 Speaker 1: one hundred percent certainty, which as an intel officer you

54:04 Speaker 1: never say one hundred percent. But all things pointed towards

54:10 Speaker 1: based on the people I talk to, like Harry Reid,

54:13 Speaker 1: and I use him as an example, but I talk

54:16 Speaker 1: to the highest of the high people you could possibly

54:19 Speaker 1: talk to to catch my drift. So unless all them

54:24 Speaker 1: are lying and they're covering up something else, which I

54:26 Speaker 1: don't even know what it would be at this point

54:28 Speaker 1: because the phenomenon is real. It's been going on for

54:32 Speaker 1: thousands of years. People have been seeing strange things and

54:35 Speaker 1: not everybody's mass hallucinating. So that's kind of my long

54:38 Speaker 1: diet tribe about what's happening.

54:40 Speaker 2: What do they think these things? Are the people that you.

54:43 Speaker 1: Talk to, so they specifically the people on the program

54:47 Speaker 1: that handle the material that we're in executive level briefings

54:51 Speaker 1: with Intel community leaders and other folks over the years

54:56 Speaker 1: last twenty years or so, they did use the term

54:58 Speaker 1: extraterrestrial ET or whatever for okay, that is a possible origin.

55:05 Speaker 1: But the Schumer Amendment, if you read it, it specifically

55:08 Speaker 1: uses non human intelligence and HI very deliberately because we

55:13 Speaker 1: want to catch everything, because what if some of this

55:15 Speaker 1: stuff is not ET and they're going to use as

55:18 Speaker 1: an escape clause like, well, this stuff that we don't

55:20 Speaker 1: even know if it's extraterrestrial, so this doesn't apply. So

55:23 Speaker 1: that's why we wanted to be as broad as possible.

55:26 Speaker 1: I mean, besides ET, I mean a lot of it

55:29 Speaker 1: would be my own personal opinion. I think we have

55:35 Speaker 1: a couple conceivable buckets, and I'm using the work of

55:42 Speaker 1: Jacques Valet other people that have thought deeply on the

55:45 Speaker 1: issue on how the phenomenon has changed since saying antiquity

55:50 Speaker 1: showed itself in a different way. Like a good example

55:54 Speaker 1: is like witches sitting on your chest phenomenon with paralysis

55:58 Speaker 1: in medieval and Enlightenment area, you know, era became this

56:03 Speaker 1: alien abduction phenomenon. In the modern area, air rescues me

56:08 Speaker 1: and is it the recipient and their analytical overlay cognitively

56:14 Speaker 1: seeing the phenomenon based on a modern interpretation, you know,

56:18 Speaker 1: inside outs or is the phenomenon This is like Jacquesvlat's

56:22 Speaker 1: book Passport to Magnodia Magnolia, Can I pronounce it right?

56:26 Speaker 1: Nineteen sixty nine where he talks about the phenomenon seems

56:30 Speaker 1: to like masquerade itself as different stuff over the years.

56:34 Speaker 1: But you know we've seen roughly the same stuff. You

56:37 Speaker 1: look at the Foo fighters of World War Two. There

56:40 Speaker 1: are declassified Air Force OSI reports from the fifties. People

56:44 Speaker 1: can google to talk about flying butane tanks with the

56:48 Speaker 1: same measurements approximately what we saw in the two thousand

56:52 Speaker 1: and four tik Tak incident, but they called it flying

56:55 Speaker 1: propane or you know, butane tanks in the fifties. So

57:00 Speaker 1: from a morphology or in the air Force until we

57:03 Speaker 1: call it phys reki visual reconnaissance, like they basically look

57:07 Speaker 1: the same, and we can back asthmth that you know,

57:11 Speaker 1: decades if not hundreds of years in the past. You know,

57:14 Speaker 1: wheels of Execuel. Right, they're seeing these like disc type objects, right,

57:17 Speaker 1: And unless Exekuel is trippin' or this is an allegory

57:22 Speaker 1: or fable in the in the Bible. You know, let's

57:24 Speaker 1: say the event happens just like the in the Vedic text.

57:28 Speaker 1: You have the battles, the blue people in the battles

57:31 Speaker 1: in the sky that sound like nuclear and directed energy weapons. Like,

57:35 Speaker 1: what's going on there? I mean, maybe that's a Graham

57:37 Speaker 1: Hancocker Randall Carlson type thing. They could they know more

57:41 Speaker 1: than I. So there is a real phenomenon that origin undetermined,

57:47 Speaker 1: but it's trippy and sometimes it presents itself in like

57:51 Speaker 1: a non corporeal form too, you know, orbs balls of energy.

57:57 Speaker 1: You know, they don't appear as like some kind of

57:59 Speaker 1: bipe heatal hominid like some people have expoused. So I

58:04 Speaker 1: think that might be call it interdimensional, call it shadow biome,

58:10 Speaker 1: crypto tereshia. I mean, there's a lot of different theories.

58:13 Speaker 1: What are the primary theory?

58:14 Speaker 2: The primary theories are from another planet or from another dimension.

58:19 Speaker 1: I think those are the primary. I mean, there's certainly

58:23 Speaker 1: origins that we probably can't conceptualize as humans because we're

58:26 Speaker 1: just our meat is stuck in three D and we

58:29 Speaker 1: don't understand and our IQs are only so high. So

58:32 Speaker 1: there might be some origins that we.

58:33 Speaker 2: Don't understand in terms of like interdimensional travel.

58:38 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean obviously, you know, if you talk to

58:40 Speaker 1: mainstream physicists, they say, like crossing dimensions physically is kind

58:45 Speaker 1: of a trope of sci fi. And you know, that's

58:48 Speaker 1: why I used an example and that if some physicists

58:52 Speaker 1: don't like me talking about this theory, but it is

58:54 Speaker 1: a theory, you know. Like so the holographic principle, which

58:57 Speaker 1: was originally can see to explain how information is encoded

59:03 Speaker 1: on an event horizon of a black hole, which is

59:06 Speaker 1: a distance away from the singularity of a black hole,

59:09 Speaker 1: where if you cross it, you're fucked because you're gonna

59:12 Speaker 1: get riped the shreds or you're not coming back. And

59:16 Speaker 1: that principle talks about how information basically from higher dimensional

59:21 Speaker 1: space can be encoded in lower dimensional space. And the

59:24 Speaker 1: easiest example is like us casting a shadow on a sidewalk, right,

59:30 Speaker 1: three dimensional objects, two D shadow on a sidewalk. If

59:34 Speaker 1: you lived in two dimensional space flat land, you'd be

59:37 Speaker 1: tripped out what the fuck am I seeing? But they

59:41 Speaker 1: just don't know that it's really just a person in

59:43 Speaker 1: higher dimensional space. So is some of the I mean,

59:46 Speaker 1: obviously we have physical material that's in three dimensional space

59:49 Speaker 1: that we've recovered, but at least maybe some of the

59:51 Speaker 1: phenomenon is really operating in higher spatial dimensions, but it

59:57 Speaker 1: is either being projected or quasi projected into are three

1:00:00 Speaker 1: D plus time space, which is really trippy to think about,

1:00:04 Speaker 1: but we literally do it on a day to day basis,

1:00:06 Speaker 1: like casting shadows. So and that might be some of

1:00:09 Speaker 1: what we're seeing too, But I mean, I presume we

1:00:12 Speaker 1: know more. The people I talked to did not expouse

1:00:17 Speaker 1: they had full knowledge either. Like I said that, the

1:00:19 Speaker 1: normal colloquialism was to say et or extraterrestrial?

1:00:23 Speaker 2: Could you dumb down this concept of inter dimensional like, yeah,

1:00:29 Speaker 2: what I know in physics they have theorized that there

1:00:34 Speaker 2: are multiple dimensions other than those that we can currently detect.

1:00:37 Speaker 1: Yeah, and a lot of that is based off of

1:00:39 Speaker 1: like laj this is my bachelor's degree talking. I know

1:00:42 Speaker 1: there's gonna be like some physicists who's a PhD's like,

1:00:45 Speaker 1: ohay if you fuck that up. But basically, you know,

1:00:49 Speaker 1: from high energy particle collisions and based on the deflection

1:00:53 Speaker 1: angles and all this stuff, what happens when the particles collide,

1:00:56 Speaker 1: you know, confirm certain theoretical frameworks about extra spatial dimensions.

1:01:03 Speaker 1: And you know, I can't speak with any real authority

1:01:06 Speaker 1: on you know precisely how that works. But a lot

1:01:09 Speaker 1: of you, whether it be string theory or quantum mechanics,

1:01:13 Speaker 1: are based off of higher spatial dimensions. And you know,

1:01:18 Speaker 1: so that is a mainstream physics theoretical framework that's not

1:01:23 Speaker 1: like wacky or looney or anything like that. So but

1:01:27 Speaker 1: that's basically a possibility. But like I said, like we

1:01:33 Speaker 1: don't really have a good theory if you if you

1:01:34 Speaker 1: work if you lived in like five D space for example,

1:01:37 Speaker 1: it's almost like remember the ending of the movie Interstellar,

1:01:41 Speaker 1: right where where he's pushing the books. He's like in

1:01:44 Speaker 1: a Tessa act, you know, which is like a four

1:01:46 Speaker 1: to five D structure, but he's trying to interact with

1:01:49 Speaker 1: three d space, and of course he like leaves that

1:01:51 Speaker 1: space to come back to his daughter many years later

1:01:54 Speaker 1: at then in the ending of the movie. Great movie,

1:01:56 Speaker 1: but so that's a way to concept vitalize it in

1:02:00 Speaker 1: something you may have watched in film. It's kind of

1:02:04 Speaker 1: like the ending of Interstellar.

1:02:05 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, there you go, yeah, which is based

1:02:10 Speaker 2: on what like what theory. So the physicist Kip Thorn

1:02:15 Speaker 2: was the very famous guy. He was a big black

1:02:17 Speaker 2: hole and wormhole guy. I think it's Caltech or somewhere

1:02:21 Speaker 2: in California. Kip Thorn actually did all the physics equations

1:02:25 Speaker 2: and everything for Christopher Nolan to make sure that they

1:02:29 Speaker 2: were conceptualizing and visualizing black holes and wormholes and all

1:02:35 Speaker 2: that stuff correctly in the movie where you saw like

1:02:37 Speaker 2: the halo around the black hole when they were coming

1:02:41 Speaker 2: in with the ship and everything, that's actually based off

1:02:44 Speaker 2: of real physics models that Kip Thorn did the calculations for,

1:02:47 Speaker 2: which is pretty cool actually that Christopher Nolan took it

1:02:50 Speaker 2: to that level.

1:02:50 Speaker 1: You know.

1:02:51 Speaker 2: So this idea that these beings or whatever you want

1:02:55 Speaker 2: to call them, exist in some other dimension, do we

1:02:59 Speaker 2: have have I mean, I don't know what you can

1:03:03 Speaker 2: say about this, Do we have an understanding? Do we

1:03:06 Speaker 2: have any sort of communication with these beings that give

1:03:11 Speaker 2: us some sort of an understanding or a map of this?

1:03:15 Speaker 1: Yeah, the interaction stuff, that's a sensitive area. There are

1:03:21 Speaker 1: multiple very senior people that were concerned about talking about

1:03:24 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff with me. I mean, that is

1:03:26 Speaker 1: certainly as nuts as it sounds. That was a real

1:03:30 Speaker 1: subject of conversation. Even it sounds like something out of

1:03:32 Speaker 1: like Star Trek first contact.

1:03:34 Speaker 2: But it doesn't if you have vehicles.

1:03:36 Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's like, once you realize the phenomenon's real,

1:03:41 Speaker 1: then you realize we've recovered artifacts and you know, biologics

1:03:46 Speaker 1: or you know, dead pilots if you will, Even though

1:03:48 Speaker 1: it's you know, kind of creepy to even think about

1:03:51 Speaker 1: that in your worldview, you don't think they were ever,

1:03:56 Speaker 1: you know, alive. Sometimes too write and you know, I'll

1:03:59 Speaker 1: leave it at that, because you know that is something

1:04:03 Speaker 1: you know, the president in his cabin need to disclose

1:04:07 Speaker 1: this in a controlled manner. Going back to that amendment.

1:04:09 Speaker 1: You know, I'm not here to uh, you know, push

1:04:14 Speaker 1: the subject in an improper way. And that sounds like

1:04:17 Speaker 1: why don't you just do it? David? Like there's a

1:04:19 Speaker 1: lot of secondary and tertiary ramifications socio economically, theologically, our

1:04:26 Speaker 1: relationship geopolitically with our allies and adversaries. This is not

1:04:32 Speaker 1: rip off the band aid and it's simple. There's there's

1:04:36 Speaker 1: a lot of complex stuff behind the scenes that need

1:04:38 Speaker 1: to happen, and that's why I'm I'm laying out all

1:04:41 Speaker 1: the general stuff that needs to be talked about during

1:04:43 Speaker 1: a disclosure process. But I should not be the one disclosing,

1:04:47 Speaker 1: and it would be highly inappropriate because I care about

1:04:51 Speaker 1: the health of the United States and its people in

1:04:53 Speaker 1: national security for me to do so. So I know

1:04:56 Speaker 1: there's people that are like, oh, what doesn't Dave say X,

1:04:59 Speaker 1: Y and Z. It's like, this is serious. This is

1:05:01 Speaker 1: not like ha ha. Let me tell you a good story.

1:05:05 Speaker 1: I'm a serious guy. I ruined my fucking career doing this.

1:05:08 Speaker 1: I was gonna make lieutenant colonel in the Air Force

1:05:10 Speaker 1: in this winter. I was on track to be, you know,

1:05:13 Speaker 1: a flag officer of equivent civilian. In my career, I

1:05:17 Speaker 1: spent eighteen years in uniform if you count the cadet time, right,

1:05:22 Speaker 1: my whole adult life was serving as an intel officer.

1:05:25 Speaker 1: But I wanted to see and I'm thirty six, right,

1:05:28 Speaker 1: older millennial. I wanted to see change. So I'm throwing

1:05:32 Speaker 1: the flag outs and I'm here to hold the government

1:05:36 Speaker 1: accountable to do the right thing in a manner that

1:05:39 Speaker 1: is mature and thorough, because I don't begin to say

1:05:44 Speaker 1: that I know everything all the different ramifications of saying

1:05:48 Speaker 1: certain things publicly. I don't know all the answers to that,

1:05:51 Speaker 1: and that's why I have to be careful because I

1:05:53 Speaker 1: don't even know. I'll call it, you know, collateral damage

1:05:56 Speaker 1: effects to use kind of a military term. What may

1:05:59 Speaker 1: happen of certain things in detail that are revealed that

1:06:03 Speaker 1: I might not know the ramifications thereof because there's something

1:06:07 Speaker 1: that I'm not privy to. So this is like a

1:06:09 Speaker 1: serious This is not like a fun situation. This is

1:06:12 Speaker 1: like a humanity changing, hopefully in a good way. But

1:06:16 Speaker 1: this is like, you know, quite serious, and I, you know,

1:06:21 Speaker 1: risked my personal and professional life and personal life because

1:06:25 Speaker 1: things have happened to me to be public like this,

1:06:30 Speaker 1: and you know, I swore an oath, but you know,

1:06:33 Speaker 1: myself and my generation you know, want to see it change.

1:06:36 Speaker 2: Can you discuss the things that have happened to you personally?

1:06:38 Speaker 1: Yeah, so a lot of the stuff I have to

1:06:41 Speaker 1: be purposely vague because there's an open inspector General Reprisal

1:06:45 Speaker 1: investigation on my behalf and I'm not here to compromise

1:06:48 Speaker 1: the investigation by tipping off my antibodies that may be

1:06:52 Speaker 1: watching right now. But you know, when I really started

1:06:56 Speaker 1: looking into this, I mean, they came after me so

1:07:00 Speaker 1: hard to try to revoke my clearance, ruined my career,

1:07:05 Speaker 1: kicked me out of my agency, and they accused me

1:07:10 Speaker 1: of everything you could possibly think of with like no evidence.

1:07:16 Speaker 1: For example, at first, they wanted to say, oh, Dave,

1:07:21 Speaker 1: you have mental health stuff you didn't report to us.

1:07:23 Speaker 1: We're concerned because we think you might have an ongoing

1:07:26 Speaker 1: mental health issue. I'm like, what are you talking about.

1:07:29 Speaker 1: I reported that I had PTSD from Afghanistan and my

1:07:34 Speaker 1: military service several years ago, and I sought help for that,

1:07:37 Speaker 1: Like I'm not ashamed of that. You know, I'm high

1:07:39 Speaker 1: functioning autistic and I didn't know that until my early thirties,

1:07:43 Speaker 1: and how I processed trauma I didn't really understand until

1:07:48 Speaker 1: many years later. And you know, I sought help for that,

1:07:51 Speaker 1: and they were trying to say that like I had

1:07:54 Speaker 1: some secret mental health problem that I haven't been reporting to.

1:07:59 Speaker 1: So I had to go through this whole process. Three

1:08:02 Speaker 1: agencies at the same time investigated me for that, which

1:08:06 Speaker 1: I don't even know if that's like legal. They tried

1:08:09 Speaker 1: to say that I like mishandled classify all this other stuff.

1:08:12 Speaker 1: It was insane. Apparently I was under criminal investigation for

1:08:16 Speaker 1: a couple months and I didn't even know that, and

1:08:18 Speaker 1: nor did they interview me. But they made a finding

1:08:23 Speaker 1: with no evidence they tried to use against me that

1:08:25 Speaker 1: I had to spend money to basically litigate and maintain

1:08:28 Speaker 1: my employment my clearance, which I did. For the record,

1:08:31 Speaker 1: I maintained my clearance. I resigned with full accesses. You know,

1:08:36 Speaker 1: I'm just debrief now, but I maintained my top secret

1:08:39 Speaker 1: eligibility and I left with my own accord and so,

1:08:44 Speaker 1: and of course they ruined one of my boss's careers

1:08:49 Speaker 1: in another agency. They walked him out of the building

1:08:52 Speaker 1: and revoked his clearance and terminated him as a show

1:08:54 Speaker 1: of force after they were going after me. And I

1:08:58 Speaker 1: feel sorry for that certain vidual. And they came after

1:09:02 Speaker 1: coworkers of mine. I can't get into who, what, when,

1:09:04 Speaker 1: where and why to protect their identities and their own process.

1:09:07 Speaker 1: But so that's what happened to me professionally, and then

1:09:13 Speaker 1: what happened to me personally was very disturbing. So I

1:09:20 Speaker 1: have to be very vague about this because ongoing investigation,

1:09:24 Speaker 1: but I think you'll understand what I'm saying is they

1:09:29 Speaker 1: showed my wife and I they can touch me at anytime,

1:09:32 Speaker 1: two times, and it was very disturbing. It was in

1:09:37 Speaker 1: conjunction with some other people getting a message like that

1:09:39 Speaker 1: that are to say, publicly well known, some that aren't

1:09:43 Speaker 1: publicly well known. And of course I immediately reported that

1:09:47 Speaker 1: to you know, counterintelligence, federal law enforcement, local to me

1:09:51 Speaker 1: because it you know, it wasn't criminal, but it was

1:09:53 Speaker 1: like a fuck you to me. And this was right

1:09:57 Speaker 1: before I fouled my whistle blower complaint. Now I don't

1:10:00 Speaker 1: know who did this, you know, entity who did X,

1:10:04 Speaker 1: Y and Z to my wife and I Identity unknown,

1:10:07 Speaker 1: but it fucking happens. And I, you know, provided that

1:10:10 Speaker 1: documentation to a couple of special agents and I just

1:10:15 Speaker 1: knew that it was getting serious. And you know as well,

1:10:23 Speaker 1: First of all, I'm the kind of person. I'm from Pittsburgh,

1:10:26 Speaker 1: you know, like steal Town I'll take shit from people.

1:10:29 Speaker 1: And I decided, fuck it, I'm gonna FILET and inspect

1:10:32 Speaker 1: your general complaint to protect myself. I don't I'm in

1:10:35 Speaker 1: fear for my safety. You know, my wife's an Air

1:10:38 Speaker 1: Force veteran too, and you know, very strong individual, but

1:10:42 Speaker 1: you know, as a man, you don't want to put

1:10:44 Speaker 1: your family at risk. And you know, did certain other

1:10:48 Speaker 1: measures which I won't talk about, to protect myself, you know, physically,

1:10:53 Speaker 1: and I could not believe that that was happening to me,

1:10:57 Speaker 1: no kidding, And I knew I needed to do something internally.

1:11:03 Speaker 1: And then when I saw the writing on the wall

1:11:06 Speaker 1: earlier this year, and of course I knew about the

1:11:08 Speaker 1: Schumer Moendment, like I mentioned earlier, and I knew, I'm like,

1:11:10 Speaker 1: you know, I got to do this for my own

1:11:12 Speaker 1: protection because me leaving the federal service, because I resigned

1:11:15 Speaker 1: my Air Force commission, I totally threw that career away

1:11:20 Speaker 1: to do what I thought was the right and patriotic

1:11:22 Speaker 1: thing to whistleblow on this, you know. And I, you know,

1:11:27 Speaker 1: swore my oath eighteen years ago, and that sounds hokey,

1:11:30 Speaker 1: but I believe, you know, integrity for service, for self

1:11:34 Speaker 1: and excellence, all we do. That's the Air Force motto.

1:11:36 Speaker 1: And I'm like, I, this is not going to help

1:11:39 Speaker 1: me personally. Like I love talking to you, I like

1:11:45 Speaker 1: spreading this message because it's the right and ethical thing

1:11:47 Speaker 1: to do, but this is a nightmare for me. I

1:11:49 Speaker 1: don't want to be public. I've served the country in

1:11:52 Speaker 1: clandestine and covert operations for fourteen years. I've done technical

1:11:56 Speaker 1: intelligence for some of the most high profile takedowns in

1:11:59 Speaker 1: US history. I shouldn't even be here, but I am

1:12:03 Speaker 1: because I want to see change. I saw something unethical

1:12:06 Speaker 1: and unmoral. I want to make sure I hold that

1:12:09 Speaker 1: element of the government accountable. And it was the right

1:12:13 Speaker 1: fucking thing to do. And I get kind of emotional

1:12:16 Speaker 1: about that because you know, my career has been service

1:12:19 Speaker 1: and sacrifice, and you know, I had two friends of

1:12:23 Speaker 1: mine die And I've talked about this publicly before, and

1:12:27 Speaker 1: I you know, I'm segueing a little bit, but the

1:12:31 Speaker 1: suffering of the American intelligence officer is something that for

1:12:35 Speaker 1: their service of their country. And I'm not talking about

1:12:38 Speaker 1: this subject. Obviously, people don't realize the kind of trauma

1:12:43 Speaker 1: intel professionals go through. So first of all, I had

1:12:47 Speaker 1: a friend six months after I got back from Afghanistan.

1:12:49 Speaker 1: His name is Captain Dave Lyon. There's a park in

1:12:52 Speaker 1: Peterson Space Force Base named after him. I remember seeing

1:12:57 Speaker 1: his cough and come off the plane stuff, so you know,

1:13:01 Speaker 1: I saw him die. That that fucked me up for

1:13:03 Speaker 1: a number of years. And that's what, you know, gave

1:13:05 Speaker 1: me a lot of my my problems that I ended

1:13:07 Speaker 1: up dealing with. But then I had I remarried and

1:13:12 Speaker 1: then my best man, Captain Ben Heiney, air Force Intelligence Officer,

1:13:16 Speaker 1: Air Force Special Operations Command. I've known him for years.

1:13:19 Speaker 1: He's my closest friend, you know, best man at my wedding,

1:13:22 Speaker 1: and then twenty eight days later, unfortunately he suffered from

1:13:27 Speaker 1: depression and it was you know, he as his best friend.

1:13:29 Speaker 1: He didn't even confide in me. You know, I remember

1:13:32 Speaker 1: chit chatting him, chit chatting with him on the phone

1:13:35 Speaker 1: one day about twenty eight days after he was my

1:13:38 Speaker 1: best man, and he didn't tell me anything was wrong

1:13:40 Speaker 1: with him. And a few hours later he walked in

1:13:43 Speaker 1: his backyard and shot himself. And you know, I gave

1:13:46 Speaker 1: his eulogy at is at his funeral, and that really,

1:13:53 Speaker 1: uh you know, really affected me. And with what Ben experienced,

1:13:58 Speaker 1: which I can't get into all of the stuff he

1:14:00 Speaker 1: did obviously, but imagine being the guy that decides that

1:14:05 Speaker 1: that person is bad fire the hell fire, that person

1:14:11 Speaker 1: is now pink missed that they're dead. You just played God,

1:14:14 Speaker 1: let's go back to you know, the wife and kids

1:14:17 Speaker 1: at the end of your shift, and a lot of that.

1:14:19 Speaker 1: I you know, I did the same kind of thing.

1:14:21 Speaker 1: I did a lot of stuff overseas involved interrogations and

1:14:27 Speaker 1: you know ops that you had to decide if a

1:14:30 Speaker 1: target is bad enough where you're going to affect their

1:14:32 Speaker 1: life forever and their family's life forever. And that's the

1:14:37 Speaker 1: silent suffering of intel professionals, especially during the Global War

1:14:40 Speaker 1: and Terror, which was you know, twenty one years or so,

1:14:43 Speaker 1: and you know, the trauma and the mental health problems

1:14:48 Speaker 1: that people get from being an intel professional and operational environment.

1:14:53 Speaker 1: People think like special operators, pilots, et cetera. You know,

1:14:57 Speaker 1: Ground Army, Marines, ground pounders, and they certainly have their

1:15:01 Speaker 1: own trauma. But it's this weird, insidious am I in

1:15:05 Speaker 1: a video game? Is this real trauma that intelligence professionals

1:15:09 Speaker 1: And I just wanted to highlight that during the show

1:15:11 Speaker 1: because that was just a near and dear to myself.

1:15:15 Speaker 1: So people are aware of the service of military intelligence

1:15:20 Speaker 1: and civilian intelligence professionals, So that's have to make really

1:15:24 Speaker 1: tough decisions for the country that affect people's lives on

1:15:28 Speaker 1: the receiving end. You know.

1:15:29 Speaker 2: So, was there a concern while you're going through all

1:15:33 Speaker 2: this that if you didn't come out with this that

1:15:35 Speaker 2: we would be stuck in this same sort of loop

1:15:39 Speaker 2: for a long long period of time and no one

1:15:42 Speaker 2: would ever have access to this stuff, that they would continue.

1:15:45 Speaker 1: Yep, yeah, and that you nailed it on the head

1:15:48 Speaker 1: is you know, I think my generation wants to change

1:15:51 Speaker 1: the under forty generation. Their parents went to war, their

1:15:54 Speaker 1: older brothers went to war. We're fighting two dangerous proxy

1:15:57 Speaker 1: wars right now, which is extremely stupid. I know, a

1:16:04 Speaker 1: better way of saying it'd be quite frank, and I

1:16:06 Speaker 1: give you my own assessment on that if you want.

1:16:07 Speaker 1: But like, we're in this loop, we're not progressing in

1:16:12 Speaker 1: a healthy way as a civilization. You know, it's becoming

1:16:17 Speaker 1: more divisive, whether on the left or the right. You know,

1:16:20 Speaker 1: people aren't even looking up. All they care about is TikTok.

1:16:23 Speaker 1: You know, we're creating potentially dangerous artificial intelligence. You know,

1:16:27 Speaker 1: I even saw that in my government service, And I

1:16:31 Speaker 1: think humanity is kind of stuck right now and we

1:16:34 Speaker 1: need to change. And this subject is like one of

1:16:36 Speaker 1: the only unifying ontologically shocking, but I would think generally

1:16:43 Speaker 1: unifying topics. We're where if announced by you know, the

1:16:48 Speaker 1: US and other you know, major powers that have knowledge

1:16:51 Speaker 1: in a controlled manner, that this could change humanity for

1:16:54 Speaker 1: the better, make us look inside ourselves, become less divisive,

1:16:59 Speaker 1: and care maybe a little less about superficial things. So

1:17:05 Speaker 1: that's kind of my philosophical motivation to do what I did.

1:17:09 Speaker 2: And you're confronted with one of the biggest mysteries in

1:17:14 Speaker 2: human history, yeah, which is are we alone? And it

1:17:18 Speaker 2: seems like at least some people have the answer to.

1:17:21 Speaker 1: That one hundred percent. I mean the people I talked

1:17:23 Speaker 1: to certainly did, and they had close personal knowledge and

1:17:27 Speaker 1: the INTEL reports I read, you know, literally indicated that

1:17:31 Speaker 1: as well, like I talked about earlier, And it just

1:17:35 Speaker 1: so it's like this cast system I call it. Dudes

1:17:37 Speaker 1: with SEI clearances do not have an embargo on reality.

1:17:43 Speaker 1: So it's a caste system of you know, people in

1:17:46 Speaker 1: government and outside of government in the industrial complex that

1:17:49 Speaker 1: run this stuff under a little oversight. And you know,

1:17:53 Speaker 1: I remember some of the people who deny us access.

1:17:55 Speaker 1: They were like, you know, you know, I don't know

1:17:57 Speaker 1: what you're talking about, but if I did, why would

1:18:00 Speaker 1: you have a need to know? And I'm like, well,

1:18:02 Speaker 1: why did you have a need to know? You're just

1:18:04 Speaker 1: some multistar general. Well, you're a human being. You're a

1:18:09 Speaker 1: human being. You're not better than me. I mean, who

1:18:12 Speaker 1: determines need to know on a humanistic question? It's like

1:18:19 Speaker 1: basic fact of life? Why do you why are we

1:18:21 Speaker 1: classifying fact of life at this day and age in

1:18:24 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three. It's insane And the answer to that

1:18:28 Speaker 1: would be national security. Yeah, it's up to national security. Right, So,

1:18:33 Speaker 1: like why we classify stuff? It's called Executive Order thirteen

1:18:38 Speaker 1: five twenty six right, section one point four, Sections E

1:18:42 Speaker 1: and F are why we classify science stuff? Why we

1:18:45 Speaker 1: classify nuclear stuff? It's like a one liner. It's very vague.

1:18:49 Speaker 1: And are you saying this is these basic facts should

1:18:54 Speaker 1: be classified? Are you saying that this fits in this bill?

1:18:58 Speaker 1: And you know, and you notice a Schumer amendment, if

1:19:00 Speaker 1: anybody reads it awkwardly calls out the atomic Energy Act

1:19:04 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty four, right, and they're basically treating this

1:19:10 Speaker 1: as nuclear secrets because it gives off a nuclear radiation.

1:19:16 Speaker 1: Because if you look at the ultra vague definition of

1:19:21 Speaker 1: special nuclear material, which is Section fifty one with the

1:19:24 Speaker 1: Atomic Energy Act in nineteen fifty four, it says anything

1:19:27 Speaker 1: that gives off a sizeable amount of atomic energy. Literally,

1:19:31 Speaker 1: that's what it says. Well, what sizable and what legal

1:19:35 Speaker 1: gymnastics are you saying this stuff which is obviously not

1:19:39 Speaker 1: a well who knows, maybe it is a nuclear weapon,

1:19:43 Speaker 1: and you're saying this is a US nuclear secret. You're

1:19:45 Speaker 1: trans classifying it into a nuclear secret, which I understand

1:19:52 Speaker 1: maybe at first why they did that. And I'm not

1:19:55 Speaker 1: admonishing the hard decisions that presidents and other folks did

1:20:00 Speaker 1: years ago when this was more of an enigma and

1:20:02 Speaker 1: we wanted to like lock it down, figure it out,

1:20:04 Speaker 1: and then see what we're gonna do. But there's never

1:20:07 Speaker 1: been a disclosure plan. I always ask that, like the

1:20:10 Speaker 1: super senior people I talked to, was there a plan,

1:20:13 Speaker 1: any kind of plan at all, And they're like, no, never.

1:20:17 Speaker 1: We tried the money to waters back and there, you know,

1:20:21 Speaker 1: try to put it out there and test the populace.

1:20:24 Speaker 1: But you know, there was never any coaching plan. I mean,

1:20:28 Speaker 1: people think the government is like this fine oiled machine

1:20:31 Speaker 1: they have plans for everything. Well, I guess sort of,

1:20:34 Speaker 1: but like it's not. I mean, look at the War

1:20:37 Speaker 1: on terrorism. We left Afghanistan. No general officer Mattis Portrays McCrystal.

1:20:43 Speaker 1: I call them the failed generals. People lowed them, but

1:20:46 Speaker 1: really themselves in the Bomba administration, Bush administration except you

1:20:51 Speaker 1: know Trump whatever, nobody had a coach and plan for success.

1:20:55 Speaker 1: And we were fighting people who were much less of

1:21:00 Speaker 1: an adversary than like one of our peers or near peers.

1:21:02 Speaker 1: And we couldn't even win that war. Like what the

1:21:04 Speaker 1: fuck are we doing? But these protracted, endless wars, let's

1:21:09 Speaker 1: be real, it's good for the industrial complex, right so,

1:21:12 Speaker 1: and I'm not like admonishing the whole industrial complex for

1:21:15 Speaker 1: the record. You know, we need national lethality, we need

1:21:19 Speaker 1: weapons to kill bad guys because there's evil people in

1:21:21 Speaker 1: the world. But you've got to control you know, some

1:21:26 Speaker 1: of it though.

1:21:26 Speaker 2: Well that's a part of the problem with people that

1:21:29 Speaker 2: have secrets. It's like, once you have secrets and part

1:21:33 Speaker 2: of your identity is the holder of those secrets. And

1:21:36 Speaker 2: part of the culture of these these industries is that

1:21:42 Speaker 2: they are the ones that have the access to that.

1:21:45 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I saw that in conventional really black programs

1:21:50 Speaker 1: that was a part of my career. It was almost

1:21:52 Speaker 1: like you got that secret society vibe where it's like,

1:21:56 Speaker 1: if you're a career government servant, your salary's not that great,

1:22:01 Speaker 1: but knowledge is your currency, and what makes you special?

1:22:05 Speaker 1: What rice boll do you control? And I remember getting

1:22:08 Speaker 1: right into some stuff that like it was like the

1:22:10 Speaker 1: president and very limited number of people getting read into

1:22:13 Speaker 1: and I was one of them because I was operating

1:22:15 Speaker 1: a certain thing for a certain op and oh your

1:22:19 Speaker 1: part of the club, you know, like early thirty people

1:22:22 Speaker 1: are cleared or whatever. And I'm like, I don't get

1:22:26 Speaker 1: off on this Shit's it's so weird. But like these

1:22:29 Speaker 1: like lifers and I hate to, you know, talk some

1:22:33 Speaker 1: matter of fact about it, but like it's just it's

1:22:35 Speaker 1: kind of disgusting to me because it's like this like

1:22:38 Speaker 1: it's weird. It's just like a weird like gnostic cultish thing.

1:22:41 Speaker 1: And you know, I live that community for fourteen years

1:22:45 Speaker 1: of my career, and.

1:22:46 Speaker 2: People really do enjoy having information that other people don't

1:22:49 Speaker 2: have access to.

1:22:49 Speaker 1: I was like, I got a secret, and like that's

1:22:52 Speaker 1: why I whistle blooded. Okay, so I know this shit's real.

1:22:55 Speaker 1: I know there were not alone. We have stuff. No shit,

1:22:59 Speaker 1: am I gonna sit on my ass for thirty forty years.

1:23:02 Speaker 1: I'm an old man. I look back like, Ah, I

1:23:04 Speaker 1: had that secret. I knew about it, but I didn't

1:23:07 Speaker 1: do anything. I didn't change. So I couldn't just keep

1:23:12 Speaker 1: that secret because I thought it was just perverse and

1:23:15 Speaker 1: wrong that the people don't even at least get to

1:23:18 Speaker 1: know the basics. It's insane.

1:23:20 Speaker 2: So when it comes to these I goan to bring

1:23:23 Speaker 2: it back to these these actual entities.

1:23:25 Speaker 1: Yeah, do we.

1:23:26 Speaker 2: Know or we do have an understanding of how many

1:23:29 Speaker 2: of them were talking about and the variety of them.

1:23:33 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, there is a variety, and we have a

1:23:35 Speaker 1: certain number of different things. But the like total numbers

1:23:42 Speaker 1: of like what's interacting with us on Earth, I mean,

1:23:44 Speaker 1: nobody knows that and I.

1:23:46 Speaker 2: But there's an understanding of some that they do believe

1:23:49 Speaker 2: are interacting with us, and there's a variety in terms

1:23:51 Speaker 2: of there's there's variables.

1:23:53 Speaker 1: Yeah, I talk to people who are familiar with the

1:23:56 Speaker 1: biological analysis and everything. So we have some idea, not

1:24:00 Speaker 1: a complete picture, because it's like you know, you know,

1:24:04 Speaker 1: you're looking at it. It's like, well, I don't even

1:24:06 Speaker 1: understand the phys physiology at all. It's like, what the heck,

1:24:09 Speaker 1: it's like way different, right, So.

1:24:12 Speaker 2: We have at least action of this physiology.

1:24:15 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I was in I was in the room

1:24:18 Speaker 1: when uh uh, he'd be careful, I don't want to.

1:24:26 Speaker 1: I was in Washington, d C. With a very number

1:24:28 Speaker 1: of senior people that work for members of Congress put

1:24:32 Speaker 1: it that way when I was still in governments, and

1:24:37 Speaker 1: I brought the people who worked on that stuff to

1:24:41 Speaker 1: the Hill. I mean, this is why the members were

1:24:43 Speaker 1: so confident to put out the Schumer Amendment and stuff.

1:24:47 Speaker 1: And I was like, please explain, and they went into

1:24:52 Speaker 1: all those details and stuff, and I remember, you know,

1:24:56 Speaker 1: some of the professional staff members were like whoa, Like

1:25:00 Speaker 1: they were like in glock, right, because I mean it

1:25:02 Speaker 1: like a total world bubble. Yeah, got burst right there

1:25:07 Speaker 1: for a lot of people. And so we have some idea.

1:25:11 Speaker 1: It's not a complete picture. I mean, it's just like,

1:25:13 Speaker 1: but you're not even bringing in the right the right people,

1:25:15 Speaker 1: Like I think about my friend and colleague, doctor Gary Nolan,

1:25:19 Speaker 1: which I started the Soul Foundation nonprofit with. I mean,

1:25:24 Speaker 1: he's like, you know, Nobel level biologist, virologists, like he's

1:25:29 Speaker 1: the guy that you would want on it, but he's

1:25:31 Speaker 1: not on it. So I think we can make a

1:25:34 Speaker 1: lot of progress in our understanding once again, if if

1:25:36 Speaker 1: this is more broadly studied in an open environment.

1:25:43 Speaker 2: You aware of the Nixon Jackie Gleason story vaguely.

1:25:48 Speaker 1: I stayed away from ufology because I had these contemporary

1:25:52 Speaker 1: people that were inside. I could check all their credentials,

1:25:55 Speaker 1: where they worked, et cetera. But I'm vaguely familiar where

1:26:00 Speaker 1: what was it? Like Nixon brought Jackie Gleeson into some

1:26:03 Speaker 1: facility and showed him some stuff or something like that.

1:26:06 Speaker 2: Yeah, supposedly that's the story, and it's very it's very

1:26:09 Speaker 2: hard to determine the origin of the story, whether or

1:26:11 Speaker 2: not it's real it came from. There's a story about

1:26:14 Speaker 2: one article that was supposedly public was it vanity fair?

1:26:18 Speaker 2: And you can't find the story. But Jackie Gleason, by

1:26:23 Speaker 2: all accounts, was obsessed with UFOs and even built a

1:26:28 Speaker 2: home in upstate New York that looked like a flying saucer.

1:26:32 Speaker 1: Oh really, yeah, this is the house.

1:26:35 Speaker 2: He had this house constructed supposedly after he had this

1:26:40 Speaker 2: meeting with Nixon. So Nixon, supposedly they were drinking. Jackie

1:26:46 Speaker 2: Leason and Nick Nixon or tying went on, and Nixon's like,

1:26:49 Speaker 2: you want to see some shit, and they fly to wherever.

1:26:54 Speaker 1: This base is.

1:26:55 Speaker 2: Yeah, and he shows them these frozen biological entities and

1:27:00 Speaker 2: retrieved vehicle, and then Jackie Gleason becomes a fanatic. Obviously

1:27:05 Speaker 2: that's crazy.

1:27:06 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean not crazy, but but that's interesting that

1:27:10 Speaker 1: a president would do that too, like an uncleared celebrity

1:27:14 Speaker 1: friend of his, like, oh, let me just show you

1:27:15 Speaker 1: the most sensitive shit our country has. I don't know,

1:27:17 Speaker 1: it's kind of crazy that people are obsessed with celebrity.

1:27:21 Speaker 2: You know, there's even world leaders, you know, kings and

1:27:25 Speaker 2: queens of you know, they've always been obsessed with famous people.

1:27:29 Speaker 2: And Jackie Gleason at the time was incredibly famous and

1:27:31 Speaker 2: also beloved. Right, so this is my pal and I'm drunk.

1:27:38 Speaker 2: I want to see some shit, you know, I get it.

1:27:41 Speaker 1: I want to hang out with Nixon. If that's how

1:27:42 Speaker 1: he was, like, man, probably I bet he was.

1:27:46 Speaker 2: Like that in a lot of ways, you know, I

1:27:48 Speaker 2: mean Hunter S. Thompson famously recalled his uh yeah, there's

1:27:52 Speaker 2: a two of them meeting together. H famously called sitting

1:27:56 Speaker 2: in the backseat of a limo with Nixon talking about football,

1:27:59 Speaker 2: and he's like, if I didn't think he was a piece

1:28:01 Speaker 2: of shit, I actually kind.

1:28:02 Speaker 1: Of like him. Oh that's funny. Yeah, we're just talking football.

1:28:05 Speaker 2: You know, Look, nobody in that job, nobody as a president,

1:28:10 Speaker 2: is going to be loved by everyone. And I'm sure

1:28:12 Speaker 2: Nixon has positive qualities. And you know, if Jackie Gleeson

1:28:15 Speaker 2: liked him, I'm a giant Jackie Gleason fan. It's probably

1:28:18 Speaker 2: probably fun to hang out with. Yeah, and if you're

1:28:21 Speaker 2: drunk and you know, you're the president. And also we're

1:28:24 Speaker 2: talking about the nineteen seventies, right, so this is a

1:28:28 Speaker 2: different world. You know, Like even if you tell anybody,

1:28:31 Speaker 2: who the fuck is going to believe you, you don't have

1:28:33 Speaker 2: you can't get on TikTok, Like what are you gonna do?

1:28:35 Speaker 2: How are you gonna get this information out?

1:28:37 Speaker 1: Oh? Exactly, And that's kind of how, you know, in

1:28:39 Speaker 1: my personal opinion, you know, how the program was protected

1:28:42 Speaker 1: right for make it crazy? Right, So if anybody leaks

1:28:46 Speaker 1: anything or you know that has an unauthorized disclosure, yeah,

1:28:51 Speaker 1: people are gonn think of fucking nuts of course. Yeah.

1:28:53 Speaker 2: Yeah, but there are actual reports that we have have

1:29:00 Speaker 2: biological remains, yes, oh yes, yes, how many?

1:29:07 Speaker 1: It's up there as well.

1:29:09 Speaker 2: Just like with the area, there's different kinds. Do we

1:29:14 Speaker 2: have an understanding that you don't have to answer where

1:29:18 Speaker 2: of where they came from?

1:29:21 Speaker 1: Nobody I talked to expoused any specific origin to me.

1:29:25 Speaker 1: We may know that, but I'm not aware of anything.

1:29:28 Speaker 1: So I don't know.

1:29:29 Speaker 2: Are there reports of some kind of interaction with these

1:29:34 Speaker 2: things where they're giving information or discussing the problems of

1:29:40 Speaker 2: humanity and possible solutions, or explaining why they're here.

1:29:46 Speaker 1: Interactions was a sensitive subject that my interview subjects did

1:29:52 Speaker 1: not want to get into. I suppose that there's probably

1:29:57 Speaker 1: detailed documentation of those interactions that goes into a lot

1:30:00 Speaker 1: of the stuff you're asking. I truly don't even know

1:30:02 Speaker 1: the answer to a lot of that.

1:30:04 Speaker 2: So, but is there discussions amongst these people that there

1:30:08 Speaker 2: have been these sort of.

1:30:10 Speaker 1: There was water cooler talk with some people I talked

1:30:14 Speaker 1: to on the program. Yeah, they're like, hey, bro, guess

1:30:17 Speaker 1: what I overheard and some weird meeting, you know. And

1:30:21 Speaker 1: but that is the problem with that is it's like

1:30:22 Speaker 1: secondary information and I'm so anal retentive unless that person

1:30:27 Speaker 1: told me I had close personal I touched it whatever,

1:30:32 Speaker 1: like cool, well you're coming to the Inspector General or

1:30:34 Speaker 1: I'm going to at least give them your name because

1:30:36 Speaker 1: that's what you told me. And then obviously I did that.

1:30:39 Speaker 1: So those people who physically were there were on the program,

1:30:43 Speaker 1: did the thing I brought to the Inspector General.

1:30:47 Speaker 2: Are there discussions of interactions with live beings? Uh?

1:30:53 Speaker 1: There was some water cooler talk about that kind of things.

1:30:55 Speaker 1: But you know, I don't even want to get into

1:30:57 Speaker 1: it because it's like there was some details provided to me,

1:31:00 Speaker 1: but it's like it's secondary and I don't know if

1:31:03 Speaker 1: that's like the telephone game, and I don't know if

1:31:07 Speaker 1: it was hyperbolized in any way, you know, in the breakroom,

1:31:12 Speaker 1: so to speak. So I just I'm so anal about

1:31:14 Speaker 1: making sure what I say is accurate. I don't you know,

1:31:16 Speaker 1: I don't know.

1:31:18 Speaker 2: Yeah, do we have an understanding, I mean, if if

1:31:21 Speaker 2: there have been these discussions, do we have an understanding

1:31:24 Speaker 2: of when they first took place.

1:31:27 Speaker 1: Yeah, some specific events were mentioned to me and I

1:31:31 Speaker 1: provided that information in a classified setting. And how far

1:31:34 Speaker 1: back do they go? Pretty far back? It's pretty weird. Yeah.

1:31:38 Speaker 2: So well, one of the stories from Roswell that's fascinating

1:31:41 Speaker 2: to me is that Eisenhower had the wreckage flown to

1:31:45 Speaker 2: write Patterson Air Force Base in two separate jets in

1:31:49 Speaker 2: case one of them crashed.

1:31:52 Speaker 1: There has been some public testimony, so general debos. There

1:31:57 Speaker 1: were some old timers that at least, you know, did

1:32:02 Speaker 1: some videos in like the nineties like I'm I'm Brigader

1:32:06 Speaker 1: General Exxon. Here's what I heard. Whatever I mean, that's

1:32:10 Speaker 1: out there in the open source.

1:32:12 Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, And there was always a discussion of

1:32:15 Speaker 2: Hangar eighteen. Right, if you ever Hangar eighteen.

1:32:19 Speaker 1: There's a lot of hangars, that's the one.

1:32:21 Speaker 2: For whatever reason, I think it was maybe a movie.

1:32:23 Speaker 1: Was there a movie? Well, you know, you know, it's funny.

1:32:25 Speaker 1: Speaking of senators being denied, there's a video in the

1:32:29 Speaker 1: late eighties of Senator Barry Goldwater of Goldwater nichol Zac famed. Right,

1:32:34 Speaker 1: he was a two star general in the Air Force Reserve,

1:32:38 Speaker 1: and like literally this video is like on YouTube. It's

1:32:40 Speaker 1: like hard to find though, but Jesse Michael's on American

1:32:43 Speaker 1: Alchemy put together I think a short video yesterday, and

1:32:47 Speaker 1: there's like a section in there where he actually has

1:32:49 Speaker 1: that Goldwater interview. But General Goldwater's like, yeah, one day

1:32:54 Speaker 1: I called Curtis LeMay, who's a very famous Air Force general,

1:32:57 Speaker 1: and was like, General, I heard that there's this room

1:33:00 Speaker 1: you you know, have UFOAM material. And Barry Goldwater expouses

1:33:04 Speaker 1: in this interview like yeah, and le May got matter

1:33:08 Speaker 1: than hell at me and told me never to fucking

1:33:11 Speaker 1: ask about that again. I might have added the f

1:33:13 Speaker 1: wort in there just for for fun, but uh yeah,

1:33:17 Speaker 1: it's bad in the military too long. My wife tells

1:33:21 Speaker 1: me to be careful of my language all the time

1:33:23 Speaker 1: around my niece and nephews. But even Barry Goldwater knew

1:33:29 Speaker 1: that we had UFOAM material. He asked General LeMay when

1:33:33 Speaker 1: he was in the Air Force, and General May basically

1:33:35 Speaker 1: told him the fuck off. And that is a literal

1:33:38 Speaker 1: interview you can google. So a lot of this, like

1:33:41 Speaker 1: people disclosing fact of has really been out in the

1:33:46 Speaker 1: vernacular for a long time, but nobody really cared because well,

1:33:51 Speaker 1: everybody was just kind of like desensitized from the whole

1:33:54 Speaker 1: subject and thought it was wacky. And I'm not the

1:33:56 Speaker 1: first former government official to confirm that Goldwater and all

1:34:01 Speaker 1: these other Harry Reid who made the same disclosure to

1:34:05 Speaker 1: The New Yorker a month after I talked to him

1:34:07 Speaker 1: in person. Yeah, Melanis said stuff. Uh luel A. Zondo said, uh,

1:34:13 Speaker 1: you know, he believes we have material on I think

1:34:15 Speaker 1: it was Tucker Carlson a couple of years ago, So

1:34:20 Speaker 1: there's certainly been other officials. Now I'm just trying to

1:34:24 Speaker 1: spike the football and take it all the way to

1:34:26 Speaker 1: the end zone here. And luckily we have a Congress

1:34:29 Speaker 1: that's mostly motivated, minus Mike Rogers and Mike Turner. You're

1:34:33 Speaker 1: you're you're getting cool in your stockings. I'm going to

1:34:35 Speaker 1: make sure your office gets cool. And uh, you know,

1:34:40 Speaker 1: they they want change too, and they realize it's time

1:34:43 Speaker 1: for a change. And uh, presumably you know, Chuck Schumer's

1:34:47 Speaker 1: talked to you know, Jake Sullivan and President Biden. And

1:34:51 Speaker 1: you know who's in the White House right now is

1:34:54 Speaker 1: John Podesta. He is the green energies are or something

1:34:59 Speaker 1: like that in the White House. But you know, John

1:35:01 Speaker 1: Podesta h shout out to John Podesta in the White House.

1:35:06 Speaker 1: He has an act of grind on this issue too,

1:35:09 Speaker 1: because he remember he tweeted at the end of obama

1:35:12 Speaker 1: second term, you know my biggest failure was not to

1:35:15 Speaker 1: have Obama or release the UFO file, and made the

1:35:18 Speaker 1: same kind of statement with Clinton. So certainly, if mister

1:35:22 Speaker 1: Pedesta's listening in the White House, you know, I'm here

1:35:25 Speaker 1: to help. You know, I hope that you're championing this

1:35:28 Speaker 1: within the executive office of the President. And you know,

1:35:32 Speaker 1: the other speaking of people like Goldwater who who've made

1:35:36 Speaker 1: some weird, non sequitor kind of admissions, there's a John

1:35:41 Speaker 1: Stossel interview of Mike Pompeo, the former CI director, about

1:35:46 Speaker 1: two years ago or so. You can find it online

1:35:49 Speaker 1: where Pompeo talks about the JFK file and like dismisses

1:35:52 Speaker 1: it or something about like there's no boogeyman here. But

1:35:55 Speaker 1: then he quickly says, oh, I've seen the UFO file

1:36:01 Speaker 1: two and we have bigger problems. But at least the

1:36:06 Speaker 1: way it was edited, John Stossel didn't even follow up.

1:36:09 Speaker 1: At least the way the final cut was. I'm like, dude,

1:36:11 Speaker 1: if I was John Stosslupen, like, what do you mean,

1:36:14 Speaker 1: Mike Pompeo. You've seen the UFO file and we have

1:36:18 Speaker 1: bigger problems in UFO file. The way I interpret that

1:36:21 Speaker 1: is a long existing file or briefing document or something

1:36:28 Speaker 1: that he had access to. So I think I think

1:36:31 Speaker 1: the former CIA director, my Pompeo should probably clarify what

1:36:34 Speaker 1: he said two years ago next to if anybody interviews

1:36:37 Speaker 1: him next ask Mike that question, what did he mean.

1:36:41 Speaker 2: Yeah, we have bigger problems. Well, we certainly have bigger

1:36:44 Speaker 2: problems in terms of our current existence, specifically with what

1:36:48 Speaker 2: you were talking about earlier, the proxy wars and collapse

1:36:50 Speaker 2: of society as we know it.

1:36:53 Speaker 1: It just seems yeah, I mean the I mean, I

1:36:56 Speaker 1: feel for the Ukrainian and the Israeli people. You know,

1:36:58 Speaker 1: I'm not taking any particular side, but certainly people forget

1:37:03 Speaker 1: US AID and these wars. What's the most expensive thing

1:37:07 Speaker 1: if you've studied phases of conflict, it's the reconstruction costs

1:37:11 Speaker 1: after the conflict. So we in it for like triple

1:37:15 Speaker 1: digit billions, like the war and terror. I mean, certainly

1:37:20 Speaker 1: the Israeli conflict is a great distraction because you know,

1:37:23 Speaker 1: like Russia is very tight with Iran right and personal opinion,

1:37:27 Speaker 1: you know, it's just my own personal opinion, but I

1:37:29 Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure they commiserated and was like, can

1:37:32 Speaker 1: you start a two front war because we would like

1:37:34 Speaker 1: to win in Ukraine and this will distract the US

1:37:39 Speaker 1: because Israel is a long time you know, Middle East ally,

1:37:42 Speaker 1: So it's brilliant, it's brilliant public opinion.

1:37:46 Speaker 2: I mean, the virtue signalers on social media have essentially

1:37:51 Speaker 2: completely forgotten about Ukraine. It's all about Israel and Palace time.

1:37:56 Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't even see it. And I understand, you know,

1:38:00 Speaker 1: the National Security Council determination was that they've discussed publicly

1:38:03 Speaker 1: where it's kind of like trying to drain the Russia's

1:38:06 Speaker 1: you know, military capability and annexation of Ukrainian territory because

1:38:13 Speaker 1: they don't want Russia's sphere of influence to further enter

1:38:17 Speaker 1: that caucus region and stuff. But yeah, it's funny, like

1:38:21 Speaker 1: you said, it's like, you don't even talk about Ukraine.

1:38:23 Speaker 1: It's all about Israel now, and which is a horrible

1:38:26 Speaker 1: conflict on both sides. Like it's just it's unfortunate.

1:38:30 Speaker 2: So without a doubt, Yeah, it's that it was a

1:38:33 Speaker 2: very interesting statement though, that we have bigger problems, so

1:38:37 Speaker 2: even if we do, this seems to be like a

1:38:42 Speaker 2: This is such a human question because it's one of

1:38:45 Speaker 2: the biggest mysteries. Obviously. You know, there's the Fermi paradox.

1:38:49 Speaker 1: Where are they? Right?

1:38:50 Speaker 2: If you look out and if you look out into

1:38:52 Speaker 2: the cosmos, if you've ever gone to clear night and

1:38:54 Speaker 2: you look out and you realize those are all stars,

1:38:56 Speaker 2: and those stars are all surrounded by planets, and there's

1:39:01 Speaker 2: literally hundreds of billions of them.

1:39:03 Speaker 1: In the Drake equation, you can calculate what probable sentient life. Yeah,

1:39:08 Speaker 1: And I've been an amateur astronomer since I've been a kid,

1:39:10 Speaker 1: and I've never crazy enough. I've never seen anything remarkable.

1:39:16 Speaker 1: I've seen some stuff that could have been ball lightning

1:39:18 Speaker 1: and some satellite passes that weren't registered online when you

1:39:25 Speaker 1: could actually check to see if there's gonna be like

1:39:26 Speaker 1: an iridium flare or something like that, and maybe that

1:39:29 Speaker 1: was a satellite pass, maybe not. But I've never seen

1:39:31 Speaker 1: in my personal life, never seen anything weird. And it's

1:39:37 Speaker 1: funny you mentioned the Fermi paradox, and it's like, well,

1:39:40 Speaker 1: where are they and okay, well, you know, if you're

1:39:43 Speaker 1: sentient life, you're certainly going to have sophisticated cover, concealment,

1:39:48 Speaker 1: and deception techniques. It goes back to like what Jacques

1:39:50 Speaker 1: Valet's work is, where you know, the phenomenon presenting itself

1:39:54 Speaker 1: in different ways. But also, I live in the mountains

1:39:57 Speaker 1: of Colorado, right, so there is a mountain and den

1:40:00 Speaker 1: about ten miles from my house in Colorado. Literally, you

1:40:05 Speaker 1: know I am. There are lower predatory sentients, I'm higher

1:40:09 Speaker 1: predatory sentience, and I'm using this as a device or

1:40:12 Speaker 1: an analogy for Nhi and us. Well, I don't on

1:40:18 Speaker 1: a day to day basis, I don't care what a

1:40:20 Speaker 1: mountain lion is doing. I may hike in that area

1:40:23 Speaker 1: to explore, but day to day I'm afraid of it

1:40:28 Speaker 1: and I don't care and think about what humans might be. Unfortunately,

1:40:33 Speaker 1: to some of these higher sentiens where this monkey has

1:40:36 Speaker 1: a nuke, holy shit, keep them in the cage. We

1:40:39 Speaker 1: don't want to go anywhere near them. And so people

1:40:42 Speaker 1: think that there would be some kind of open contact

1:40:46 Speaker 1: with some higher sentience that is either visiting Earth or

1:40:49 Speaker 1: from another dimension or whatever the origin is. But they

1:40:53 Speaker 1: probably don't care. They're probably neutral at best and maybe

1:40:58 Speaker 1: actually fearful of us in some sense, or where the

1:41:02 Speaker 1: progeny of you know, personal opinion, progeny of some experiments

1:41:07 Speaker 1: in the it's almost like living in the matrix, but

1:41:10 Speaker 1: it's not like an actual simulation. It's like, we want

1:41:12 Speaker 1: the simulation to go. We don't want to intercede because

1:41:16 Speaker 1: we want to see what, you know, Homo sapi and

1:41:19 Speaker 1: sapient two dot zho is going to do after the

1:41:21 Speaker 1: Great Flood or something like that.

1:41:22 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, Yeah, that's one of the more fascinating ideas

1:41:27 Speaker 2: is that we're some sort of a product of genetic engineering.

1:41:31 Speaker 1: I honestly would not be surprised. I don't know that

1:41:34 Speaker 1: to be true.

1:41:35 Speaker 2: But we're so different than everything else is here, so different,

1:41:39 Speaker 2: so beyond different. I mean, there's not another primate that

1:41:42 Speaker 2: is even reasonably close. I mean, if there's a speculation

1:41:48 Speaker 2: amongst primatologists, and there's a not even speculation, they believe

1:41:54 Speaker 2: that chimpanzees in particular have entered into the Stone Age,

1:41:58 Speaker 2: so they're at the beginning of the Stone Age. They're

1:42:00 Speaker 2: using tools, you know, and there's obviously some learned behavior,

1:42:04 Speaker 2: like there's some footage of orangutans using spears to hunt fish.

1:42:09 Speaker 1: With Interesting have you ever seen that? No, it's cool.

1:42:12 Speaker 2: Shit is a rangutan that's hanging on a branch over

1:42:17 Speaker 2: a river or body water and he's stabbing at fish

1:42:22 Speaker 2: with spear. Huh, which is incredible. I mean they're using tools.

1:42:26 Speaker 2: I mean, we know they use tools to extract you know,

1:42:30 Speaker 2: termites and the like. Look at that.

1:42:32 Speaker 1: I mean, oh that's crazy.

1:42:33 Speaker 2: How crazy is that? I mean he's clearly hunting. I

1:42:36 Speaker 2: mean he's going fishing in borneo. I mean that that is,

1:42:42 Speaker 2: you know, at the very least, a distant cousin of us,

1:42:48 Speaker 2: some you know, intelligent primate that is, to figure out

1:42:52 Speaker 2: a way to use tools. How long would it take

1:42:54 Speaker 2: in a rangutan to become a human being? How many

1:42:58 Speaker 2: millions of years? Are we talking about a revolution? But

1:43:00 Speaker 2: it seems to be that process that started.

1:43:02 Speaker 1: Interesting?

1:43:02 Speaker 2: But why are we so fucking different than everything?

1:43:05 Speaker 1: Yeah? Like, are we a product of Darwinian and evolution?

1:43:07 Speaker 1: Or what is a punctuated equilibrium? Is obviously another theory

1:43:10 Speaker 1: And I'm not an anthropologist by any means. You know,

1:43:13 Speaker 1: I watched some Netflix episodes, but but yeah, we seem

1:43:18 Speaker 1: to be oddly advanced, advanced, and we seem to just

1:43:24 Speaker 1: possess other skills. I mean it goes back to like

1:43:28 Speaker 1: the Stargate program, right, you know with declassified by Clinton

1:43:31 Speaker 1: and sensibly canceled I guess in ninety six, you know,

1:43:35 Speaker 1: where you had people trained in remote viewing and and

1:43:37 Speaker 1: like there was feedback loops to confirm what they saw

1:43:41 Speaker 1: was real, and you know, either satelled imagery or human

1:43:44 Speaker 1: sources where they sketched out a room of where there's

1:43:46 Speaker 1: hostages and they got a hostage out and they're like

1:43:49 Speaker 1: and this is a real story actually, and they're and

1:43:52 Speaker 1: they're like, did you have a source in that room?

1:43:54 Speaker 1: How do you know where all the corridors were and everything?

1:43:56 Speaker 1: I was like, no, actually, uh, Pat Price remote viewed

1:44:00 Speaker 1: you and he's like, what the fuck? So there's something

1:44:03 Speaker 1: going on there. And that's like Gary Nolan, you know,

1:44:06 Speaker 1: has studied a lot of this stuff very famously. He's

1:44:10 Speaker 1: pointed out the caught eight potatum in the brain, right,

1:44:13 Speaker 1: so this horseshoe shaped thing in the middle of your

1:44:15 Speaker 1: brain that if he's done MRIs and cat scans, and

1:44:19 Speaker 1: I hope I'm not butchering his work. Gary, might you know,

1:44:22 Speaker 1: slap me later, but it lights up people who have

1:44:27 Speaker 1: those kind of skills. They have like an overactive caught

1:44:31 Speaker 1: a potatum in the brain. And it's like, Okay, well,

1:44:34 Speaker 1: is it a transceiver of some sort? I'm guessing that's

1:44:36 Speaker 1: the case.

1:44:37 Speaker 2: Is it an emerging property of human beings have exactly?

1:44:40 Speaker 1: And we're seeing just a few human beings that have

1:44:43 Speaker 1: this stuff. And then if if it is a transceiver,

1:44:47 Speaker 1: where's the information? Is it in a higher spatial dimension

1:44:50 Speaker 1: or how are they extracting? How are they able to

1:44:53 Speaker 1: basically be non locality? Right, they're able to like project

1:44:59 Speaker 1: them elves somehow their consciousness to a and it's a

1:45:04 Speaker 1: declassified example from stargate Russian missile base. Sketch the crane

1:45:10 Speaker 1: and where the silos are, what the status is, you know,

1:45:14 Speaker 1: satellite comes over, takes a picture and it's exactly the

1:45:16 Speaker 1: way they sketched it. How'd they do that? Like it's

1:45:20 Speaker 1: certainly real, real because there is a feedback loop. Now

1:45:24 Speaker 1: there's a lot of Charlatan's in the psychic space and

1:45:26 Speaker 1: all that. But like at least that government program and

1:45:28 Speaker 1: I've talked to you know how put off and people

1:45:31 Speaker 1: who actually ran that program at SRI for the CIA

1:45:35 Speaker 1: than DA in the army. And that seems to be

1:45:39 Speaker 1: in men who's staring at goats? Right. The George Clooney movies,

1:45:42 Speaker 1: the famous movie based on the Stargate program, seems to

1:45:46 Speaker 1: be legit as far as we can measure from a

1:45:49 Speaker 1: feedback perspective.

1:45:50 Speaker 2: What was the explanation for the discontinuation of that program?

1:45:54 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, I'm not a scholar on that. That something

1:45:58 Speaker 1: Russell tark or how Put or one of those guys

1:46:03 Speaker 1: could explain if it was just like got caught up

1:46:05 Speaker 1: in the bureaucracy or what I don't remember.

1:46:09 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So the idea of that being an emergent

1:46:13 Speaker 2: property of human beings as we evolve has always been

1:46:17 Speaker 2: fascinating to me because there's there's certainly something that goes

1:46:21 Speaker 2: on with human communication other than we make sounds that

1:46:26 Speaker 2: represent objects and physical things. Yeah, and that the other

1:46:30 Speaker 2: person interprets those sounds and understands it. There's communication between

1:46:34 Speaker 2: human beings that's acoustic communication. Like the symbol rate, if

1:46:38 Speaker 2: you will, is really slow, like if you were able

1:46:41 Speaker 2: to consciously communicate you know, aka, you know the hokey

1:46:45 Speaker 2: term like telepathy, right, And It's funny because that's what

1:46:51 Speaker 2: a lot of people expouse that have had, you know,

1:46:54 Speaker 2: alleged contacts, right, And a lot of the people that

1:46:57 Speaker 2: doctor John Mack at Harvard study over the years where

1:47:01 Speaker 2: they felt like they were getting hit with like a

1:47:02 Speaker 2: QR code. It was like instant knowledge or they heard

1:47:08 Speaker 2: like somebody speaking to them nonverbally in some way that

1:47:11 Speaker 2: they couldn't even conceptualize through you know, acoustic communication or

1:47:16 Speaker 2: talk if you will. And it's the same thing like

1:47:19 Speaker 2: book Proof of Heaven by doctor Eben Alexander MD. I

1:47:22 Speaker 2: remember reading it when I was in Afghanistan and I

1:47:24 Speaker 2: was like, this is a crazy experience. This medical doctor

1:47:26 Speaker 2: has an necritizing fasciadis of the brain is a near

1:47:30 Speaker 2: death experience, and he gets this like crazy, like the

1:47:34 Speaker 2: feelings of love other stuff. It's a really interesting book.

1:47:36 Speaker 2: It's like a scientific take on a doctor's own near

1:47:39 Speaker 2: death experience. But when he came back and somehow the

1:47:43 Speaker 2: fasciitis didn't eat away his brain and he was cognitively normal,

1:47:48 Speaker 2: he tried to write down what information or facts of

1:47:53 Speaker 2: the universe he learned during his end, and he couldn't

1:47:57 Speaker 2: even put it in English.

1:47:58 Speaker 1: It was like crazy. He didn't know how to translate

1:48:00 Speaker 1: it into our language. It was just there was no

1:48:04 Speaker 1: like adjectives if you were adverbs, et cetera that could

1:48:07 Speaker 1: describe the knowledge that he knew like natively when he

1:48:11 Speaker 1: had that near death experience. It's a really fascinating book,

1:48:15 Speaker 1: and he talks about the disease he had and his

1:48:18 Speaker 1: physiological condition at a time. Really interesting.

1:48:21 Speaker 2: What was he able to discern from that? Like what

1:48:24 Speaker 2: was what was the overall message?

1:48:26 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was like this like the you know, there's

1:48:27 Speaker 1: the message of love, which that's positive, but it was

1:48:30 Speaker 1: like this interconnectedness. Everybody is kind of connected in a

1:48:35 Speaker 1: way that they don't really realize. I mean, you think

1:48:41 Speaker 1: about this is really trippy. A lot of thoughts with

1:48:45 Speaker 1: people who are smarter than me. I like to talk

1:48:47 Speaker 1: to them about this kind of stuff where if you're say,

1:48:51 Speaker 1: you know, a higher dimensional sentience, right, the act of creation?

1:48:54 Speaker 1: So act of creation for three D beings is having

1:48:57 Speaker 1: a baby, right, it's producing another three dimension object. Well,

1:49:01 Speaker 1: if you're in five dimensional space or even I guess

1:49:04 Speaker 1: four dimensional physical space, what if act of creation is

1:49:07 Speaker 1: creating other conscious realities in other universes and the act

1:49:11 Speaker 1: of creation is creating the universe where you me, Jamie,

1:49:19 Speaker 1: whatever we might be connected to the same, I'll call

1:49:24 Speaker 1: it universal consciousness or a higher dimensional sentient, life force

1:49:30 Speaker 1: or life form. I know that sounds like really out there,

1:49:33 Speaker 1: but when you think about it, there's a lot of

1:49:36 Speaker 1: other theologies out there that basically expous that. I have

1:49:39 Speaker 1: a very good friend of mine who's PhD level kind

1:49:43 Speaker 1: of higher up in the Mormon Church, and basically the

1:49:45 Speaker 1: Mormon theology is kind of like that. The Mormons say

1:49:49 Speaker 1: you were once with God or like God, but then

1:49:52 Speaker 1: you were sent down to like a lower plane of existence.

1:49:54 Speaker 1: And that's literally what I'm talking about right now, but

1:49:57 Speaker 1: just in a secular sense. So maybe we're all created

1:50:03 Speaker 1: beings from and this you know, this doesn't like hurt

1:50:05 Speaker 1: Christian theology whatever. It's actually kind of enforcing the fact

1:50:09 Speaker 1: there's a creator and we're literally created in the image

1:50:12 Speaker 1: of a creator, literally, and that's kind of what life

1:50:16 Speaker 1: really is. It's like, think about it's like a weird

1:50:20 Speaker 1: three D plus time temporal sensory experience for a higher

1:50:24 Speaker 1: dimensional sentience. You're here to experience time in this weird

1:50:28 Speaker 1: linear fashion and to experience yourself divorced from yourself, to

1:50:35 Speaker 1: gain knowledge and to report back is maybe what life is.

1:50:39 Speaker 1: And that's just kind of my own personal theology as

1:50:43 Speaker 1: a summation of just during COVID, I was really bored

1:50:46 Speaker 1: and that's what I was looking at.

1:50:49 Speaker 2: Well, I extrapolate that to the creation of AI, and

1:50:54 Speaker 2: I think if you think about human beings as something

1:50:56 Speaker 2: that creates things, I think ultimately we create a new life.

1:51:02 Speaker 1: Well, exactly, what if hire sentience is creating some kind

1:51:05 Speaker 1: of artificial intelligence you know, call it like a commander

1:51:08 Speaker 1: data from Star Trek next Gen, right, not even really

1:51:11 Speaker 1: it's made in the image of the creator in some sense,

1:51:14 Speaker 1: but it's not even And that's what might get sent

1:51:18 Speaker 1: into these like long endurance you know missions, And of

1:51:22 Speaker 1: course you know people are like, well, why would they

1:51:24 Speaker 1: you know, come here so far to crash, et cetera.

1:51:29 Speaker 1: Or are they crashing on purpose? Do you know that

1:51:31 Speaker 1: for a fact? Or are they crashing by accident? And

1:51:35 Speaker 1: what if they're like like von Neumann replicating probes, right,

1:51:40 Speaker 1: you can google that. But you know what if they're

1:51:42 Speaker 1: just throwaway which volume and probes are just like throwaway spacecraft,

1:51:46 Speaker 1: Like yeah, they're just we send it out we don't

1:51:49 Speaker 1: really care what the mission success is, or they're seating us,

1:51:53 Speaker 1: or as Jacques Valet says, it's like, you know, here's

1:51:56 Speaker 1: the key, can you unlock the cage kind.

1:51:58 Speaker 2: Of thing, right, And it seems that it would be

1:52:02 Speaker 2: a long I mean, if you think about biological evolution,

1:52:05 Speaker 2: so long, lengthy process, and if ultimately that led us

1:52:10 Speaker 2: to the creation of a technology that's far superior in

1:52:14 Speaker 2: terms of its capabilities of understanding and thinking, that seems

1:52:18 Speaker 2: to be what's happening. And that's one of the reasons

1:52:20 Speaker 2: why so many people are concerned about the term artificial

1:52:24 Speaker 2: intelligence is a very strange term because it's not artificial,

1:52:27 Speaker 2: it's intelligence.

1:52:29 Speaker 1: It's silicon based at a carbon based.

1:52:31 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it's just it doesn't have blood and tissue

1:52:33 Speaker 2: and cells. But it has something that's superior, but also

1:52:37 Speaker 2: something that's much more scalable, right where we have a

1:52:40 Speaker 2: very obvious biological limitation in terms of evolution. You know,

1:52:45 Speaker 2: if you look at evolution and we turn it back

1:52:46 Speaker 2: to the orangutans that are fishing, they're obviously learning new things,

1:52:52 Speaker 2: and those new properties for those newse things we assume

1:52:55 Speaker 2: will be encoded in their genetics and the past to

1:52:57 Speaker 2: their children.

1:52:58 Speaker 1: Do you have children. I have three dogs. We went

1:53:01 Speaker 1: the fluffy I'm a fluffy dad.

1:53:04 Speaker 2: Promise dogs don't learn from what they do. But one

1:53:07 Speaker 2: of the most bizarre things about children is that they

1:53:10 Speaker 2: have properties that are clearly uh, it's hard to say, right,

1:53:17 Speaker 2: because my children obviously have the example of my wife

1:53:21 Speaker 2: and myself, and they obviously see a lot of how

1:53:25 Speaker 2: we live our life, and you know, discipline and hard

1:53:29 Speaker 2: work and creativity and all those things. But there's also

1:53:33 Speaker 2: they seem to have gifts that are they seem to

1:53:37 Speaker 2: be clearly genetic and artistic, gifts that just seem extraordinary,

1:53:43 Speaker 2: that are unusual that I had when I was younger,

1:53:45 Speaker 2: that I was an illustrator. I have a young daughter

1:53:48 Speaker 2: that's just extraordinarily good at.

1:53:50 Speaker 1: Art, really illustrate. Yeah, that's what I wanted to do.

1:53:54 Speaker 1: I want to be a comic book illustrator. Oh interesting. Interesting.

1:53:58 Speaker 2: But then I have this daughter that's super gifted athletically,

1:54:03 Speaker 2: like she can learn things really quickly. It's extraordinary, it's

1:54:06 Speaker 2: and it's weird. And also this drive that she has.

1:54:10 Speaker 2: I had a drive from poverty and from you know

1:54:14 Speaker 2: a lot of like stuff that was wrong with my childhood.

1:54:17 Speaker 2: That seemed to be I had this need to prove myself.

1:54:21 Speaker 2: She doesn't have any of those problems, but she also

1:54:24 Speaker 2: has this insane drive. It's weird, it's a weird discipline,

1:54:29 Speaker 2: it's extraordinary. That seems to be very different than most kids.

1:54:33 Speaker 2: And I just think that's an emerging genetic I think

1:54:37 Speaker 2: there's something encoded in whatever you are as a human

1:54:40 Speaker 2: that as you replicate and as you have children, they

1:54:44 Speaker 2: have that they have some of that, yeah, you know,

1:54:47 Speaker 2: And I think that is this process, this biological evolutionary

1:54:54 Speaker 2: process with humans. But it's there's so much chaos, there's

1:54:58 Speaker 2: so much I mean, you could breed with a dumk person.

1:55:01 Speaker 2: You can find a hot, dumb person and have a

1:55:03 Speaker 2: baby with them, not your kids fucked.

1:55:04 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then we see that like this.

1:55:06 Speaker 2: Obviously, some people are just born with brains that just

1:55:09 Speaker 2: don't work that well. It's just like I'm sure you've

1:55:11 Speaker 2: met some dull minded people and you try to talk

1:55:14 Speaker 2: to them about things and there's no one there, right,

1:55:17 Speaker 2: So Okay, good luck and good luck with whatever children

1:55:20 Speaker 2: you have and whatever what what what are they going

1:55:23 Speaker 2: to have?

1:55:23 Speaker 1: We're genetically encoding artificial intelligence Now kind of I think

1:55:28 Speaker 1: that's where you were going.

1:55:29 Speaker 2: What I'm going with these biological limitations that we have.

1:55:32 Speaker 2: It's it's very clear that we're essentially dealing with a

1:55:35 Speaker 2: model T as opposed to a Tesla, which is just

1:55:40 Speaker 2: insanely superior to these ancient vehicles.

1:55:44 Speaker 1: We we create technology.

1:55:46 Speaker 2: I've always said this, if you looked at the human race,

1:55:49 Speaker 2: if you were some sort of an outside observer and

1:55:51 Speaker 2: you stumbled upon this, this thing that occupies this planet,

1:55:54 Speaker 2: this this apex predator of this planet, he would say,

1:55:57 Speaker 2: what is this thing doing? What's making technology? All the

1:56:00 Speaker 2: other things that it does, It does all these other

1:56:03 Speaker 2: things that also, but what are these things generally motivate?

1:56:07 Speaker 2: What do they move towards? They move towards the advancement

1:56:11 Speaker 2: of technology and innovation. That is a constant aspect of

1:56:15 Speaker 2: human beings. If you trace us back to the earliest

1:56:18 Speaker 2: civilizations to what we have today, things constantly improve unless

1:56:23 Speaker 2: something goes horribly wrong, unless there's some sort of a

1:56:25 Speaker 2: natural disaster or some sort of genocide. If something doesn't

1:56:31 Speaker 2: happen to these creatures, what do they do They consistently

1:56:34 Speaker 2: make better things. Well that if you extrapolate, if you

1:56:38 Speaker 2: follow that to its natural progression. Well, what is that

1:56:41 Speaker 2: going to get to. Well, once they've invented computers, and

1:56:45 Speaker 2: once they've invented devices, and once they've invented things that

1:56:48 Speaker 2: enhance their personal understanding of the world around them, which

1:56:51 Speaker 2: we already have now with phones, we already have with

1:56:53 Speaker 2: the internet, we already have with our ability to communicate

1:56:55 Speaker 2: with each other. The newest, latest Android phones that are

1:56:59 Speaker 2: coming out will translate natively on your phone in real

1:57:03 Speaker 2: time in conversation. So you could be speaking Portuguese to me,

1:57:07 Speaker 2: I would hear it in English.

1:57:10 Speaker 1: On a phone call, which is fucking war crazy. That's

1:57:13 Speaker 1: like universal translators.

1:57:14 Speaker 2: Literally, yes, literally literally, Well that is a real thing

1:57:18 Speaker 2: now without out of it, and to use Google Translate.

1:57:20 Speaker 2: It's native to the latest Android operating system. You could

1:57:27 Speaker 2: autumn if you just sit down and said, well, where's

1:57:30 Speaker 2: that going, Well, it's going to something way more sophisticated

1:57:34 Speaker 2: and way more capable than we are biologically. With our

1:57:37 Speaker 2: limitations are monkey bodies. We are the ancestors or the

1:57:43 Speaker 2: people that emerged from that distant cousin, that orangutane that's

1:57:48 Speaker 2: using a stick to hunt fish. We're going in this direction.

1:57:53 Speaker 2: What would be the most logical way we would completely

1:57:57 Speaker 2: accelerate that we create something that does what we do,

1:58:00 Speaker 2: but does it way better.

1:58:01 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost like to permanently harbor our consciousness eventually, right, right.

1:58:05 Speaker 2: And that kind of makes sense, right, it does make sense,

1:58:07 Speaker 2: And there's a sort of an understanding of that that

1:58:10 Speaker 2: leads to this fear of our demise that everyone you know,

1:58:14 Speaker 2: Elon's openly discussed this. Sam Altman and I were talking

1:58:18 Speaker 2: about it.

1:58:19 Speaker 1: What open ai is doing.

1:58:21 Speaker 2: What chat GPT four versus Chat GPT five, which is

1:58:25 Speaker 2: going to be insanely superior? Well, what is chat Gibt

1:58:29 Speaker 2: fifteen going to do?

1:58:30 Speaker 1: You know?

1:58:30 Speaker 2: Is that going to be the president of the world?

1:58:32 Speaker 2: You know, like, what are we going to bypass government

1:58:36 Speaker 2: and just say, you know, it's obviously like this administration

1:58:39 Speaker 2: is incredibly corrupt and flawed and influenced by the military

1:58:42 Speaker 2: industrial complex. It's not good for the world, it's not

1:58:44 Speaker 2: good for the environment. We need something that is far

1:58:48 Speaker 2: superior that doesn't have all these motivations. And what would

1:58:51 Speaker 2: that be That would be an artificial intelligent creator that

1:58:54 Speaker 2: we are a creation rather that we.

1:58:57 Speaker 1: Use the government life.

1:58:58 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that sounds nuts, but I think that's

1:59:02 Speaker 2: probably a better solution than humans with all of our

1:59:05 Speaker 2: fucking flaws and issues and greed and envy and all

1:59:09 Speaker 2: the things that we have, that that would be a

1:59:11 Speaker 2: better version of it. But what are we saying then?

1:59:14 Speaker 2: Are we saying that we're empathy into it? Though you know,

1:59:19 Speaker 2: probably not, probably not, which is terrifying. But we will

1:59:23 Speaker 2: become obsolete and or we will merge, and if we merge,

1:59:28 Speaker 2: it will completely change what we are. And I think

1:59:32 Speaker 2: that's very likely what's going to take place. I think

1:59:35 Speaker 2: the initial stages will be some sort of merging with technology,

1:59:39 Speaker 2: and then from that merging, it will essentially realize, well,

1:59:43 Speaker 2: why we even fucking.

1:59:44 Speaker 1: Around like this?

1:59:45 Speaker 2: This new thing is so superior, and it doesn't have

1:59:49 Speaker 2: all the pitfalls, it doesn't have all the problems. It's

1:59:51 Speaker 2: not short sighted. It's not going to drain the ocean

1:59:54 Speaker 2: of fish so that we can make sushi. It's gonna

1:59:57 Speaker 2: do something. It's going to be far more, far more

2:00:00 Speaker 2: aware of all of the different effects of each individual

2:00:06 Speaker 2: act and how we affect everything around us, and what

2:00:11 Speaker 2: is net positive and what is net negative, and how

2:00:13 Speaker 2: to avoid all these things.

2:00:15 Speaker 1: I really firmly believe.

2:00:18 Speaker 2: That we are this biological caterpillar that is making a

2:00:23 Speaker 2: cocoon to create the electronic butterfly.

2:00:26 Speaker 1: And we don't even know what we're doing while we're

2:00:28 Speaker 1: doing it. We're just doing it.

2:00:29 Speaker 2: And I think materialism is also baked into that. One

2:00:32 Speaker 2: of the main problems with human beings in terms of

2:00:34 Speaker 2: like the ridiculousness of our actions. We're so materialistic. People

2:00:39 Speaker 2: are constantly wanting to get the newest, latest, greatest thing.

2:00:42 Speaker 2: What's the motivation behind that other than social status. Well,

2:00:45 Speaker 2: the motivation is that that's what that's what fuels innovation

2:00:48 Speaker 2: if you do, like if we all just stopped right

2:00:50 Speaker 2: now it said, hey, you know what, iPhone fifteen is

2:00:54 Speaker 2: pretty fucking dope. We don't need to make new iPhones.

2:00:56 Speaker 2: Let's just keep fixing those and just like exist the

2:01:00 Speaker 2: way we are right now, and let's clean up the air,

2:01:02 Speaker 2: and let's clean up the ocean. Let's clean up the

2:01:04 Speaker 2: sea and clean up the rivers and clean up the forests.

2:01:07 Speaker 2: Like what does this fix the earth?

2:01:08 Speaker 1: Yeah?

2:01:09 Speaker 2: And then no, we don't do that. We know I

2:01:11 Speaker 2: want iPhone sixteen. You know, when when is the iPhone

2:01:13 Speaker 2: going to be able to communicate completely just with satellites,

2:01:16 Speaker 2: so I don't have to worry about cell phones.

2:01:17 Speaker 1: Well, it's almost like a drug addiction, right That did

2:01:19 Speaker 1: studies where people receiving in text messages is the dopamine

2:01:22 Speaker 1: rush too, So it's almost like an artificial drug addiction.

2:01:27 Speaker 1: You're fueling because you want the more responsive tech, more

2:01:31 Speaker 1: integrating with your make easier so you can get your

2:01:35 Speaker 1: fix quicker and more efficiently, or something like that. I

2:01:38 Speaker 1: don't know.

2:01:38 Speaker 2: And why yeah, well, I mean, why would fucking staring

2:01:41 Speaker 2: at a stupid cell phone give you a dopamine rush?

2:01:44 Speaker 1: Well, it does, it does, it does, I'm not a biologist.

2:01:47 Speaker 2: It and you get addicted to your goddamn phones. And

2:01:50 Speaker 2: then why would it be that we would innovate and

2:01:53 Speaker 2: create things like Instagram and TikTok that are insanely addictive

2:01:59 Speaker 2: to the point where you look down and you've spent

2:02:01 Speaker 2: three hours staring at nothing nonsense like what what?

2:02:05 Speaker 1: Why is that?

2:02:05 Speaker 2: Well that ensures continual use of this device until it

2:02:10 Speaker 2: lures you into this ultimate integration.

2:02:12 Speaker 1: Well, it's right where they there's people at oh Meta,

2:02:14 Speaker 1: I guess now, or Facebook, you know, where they actually

2:02:16 Speaker 1: have a whole team of scientists on how to make

2:02:18 Speaker 1: their apps more addictive, right, so demons, Yeah, yeah, I don't.

2:02:25 Speaker 1: I don't use social media. I have never tweeted in

2:02:27 Speaker 1: my life. Really, that's amazing. I mean I have, like

2:02:30 Speaker 1: I use Facebook back in the day when it first

2:02:32 Speaker 1: it first came out, when I was going to college.

2:02:36 Speaker 1: I yeah, I Instagram. I've never tweeted in my life.

2:02:41 Speaker 1: I don't intend to, because you don't want to get

2:02:43 Speaker 1: sucked into that mind virus, which is like, uh, people

2:02:46 Speaker 1: responding you and you have to feel like you have

2:02:48 Speaker 1: to respond back. I don't even Yeah, I don't even

2:02:51 Speaker 1: touch it.

2:02:51 Speaker 2: Well, I'm very aware of those traps, so I don't.

2:02:53 Speaker 2: I don't do that. Yeah, I don't. I used to,

2:02:56 Speaker 2: but many years ago I stopped interacting with people because

2:02:58 Speaker 2: I just realized, like overall it's negative, Like there's positive

2:03:03 Speaker 2: aspects to it. It's great for people that like you

2:03:05 Speaker 2: and their fans. It's great too that you're an actual

2:03:08 Speaker 2: human that you interact. Occasionally, I'll comment on a post

2:03:11 Speaker 2: like that's really awesome, congratulations, that kind of stuff, But

2:03:13 Speaker 2: then I get the fuck out of there and I

2:03:15 Speaker 2: don't read any responses. And I found that that's the

2:03:17 Speaker 2: very best way to mitigate all the negative aspects of

2:03:21 Speaker 2: social media. But then you're also dealing with algorithms. You're

2:03:25 Speaker 2: dealing with things that recognize what makes you more likely

2:03:28 Speaker 2: to engage, and so those things are constantly showing you

2:03:31 Speaker 2: the things that you engage, and you know, it's not

2:03:34 Speaker 2: necessarily even positive, it's just it's just whatever you engage with,

2:03:38 Speaker 2: that's what's coming your way. Whether it could be cool

2:03:40 Speaker 2: stuff like maybe you're just like really into muscle cars

2:03:42 Speaker 2: and it shows you a lot of muscle cars, or

2:03:44 Speaker 2: it could be like murder, Like I see a lot

2:03:47 Speaker 2: of murder on Instagram. Yeah, fucking crazy.

2:03:50 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm a car guy, so like my feed is like,

2:03:53 Speaker 1: oh do you ever think about this mod for your

2:03:55 Speaker 1: Ford Bronco? Or those lights look nice? Why are that

2:03:57 Speaker 1: shit up next week? Yeah? So two, Yeah it's bad.

2:04:01 Speaker 2: Yeah, I have a problem with that. I have a

2:04:03 Speaker 2: car problem.

2:04:04 Speaker 1: My wife doesn't allow me to have the good stuff anymore,

2:04:07 Speaker 1: so I have to keep it under a certain price.

2:04:10 Speaker 1: So that's good. That's good.

2:04:11 Speaker 2: I'm more actually interested in old stuff than I am

2:04:14 Speaker 2: a new stuff.

2:04:15 Speaker 1: Do you like like rat rod stuff? Right? Well?

2:04:17 Speaker 2: I like muscle cars like this very specifically nineteen sixties

2:04:20 Speaker 2: muscle cars. Those are my favorite because what they are

2:04:23 Speaker 2: to me is it's a toy that you could drive.

2:04:27 Speaker 2: It's like a ride that gives me immense pleasure to

2:04:30 Speaker 2: just drive around and it's really fun.

2:04:32 Speaker 1: I don't even have to go fast.

2:04:33 Speaker 2: It's just going around in a nineteen seventy Chevell, just

2:04:38 Speaker 2: driving it. It's hard to describe for someone who has

2:04:42 Speaker 2: never experienced it, but it's just it's just so engaging,

2:04:46 Speaker 2: and it's like you're on this drug.

2:04:48 Speaker 1: It's like.

2:04:51 Speaker 2: It's like everything, you feel, all of it, and you're

2:04:54 Speaker 2: engaging all of these senses.

2:04:57 Speaker 1: Very tactile. Very yeah, I totally understand that. I mean,

2:05:01 Speaker 1: the only kind of old cars I like are like

2:05:02 Speaker 1: a black Lincoln Lincoln Continental Suicide stories from the Matrix.

2:05:07 Speaker 1: I remember seeing that when I was a teen, when

2:05:09 Speaker 1: The Matrix came out. I'm like, that car is badass.

2:05:12 Speaker 1: It's like totally I want like to have whatever Morpheus

2:05:14 Speaker 1: drove there are. They're essentially art.

2:05:16 Speaker 2: It's it's it's it's functional art, like you could it's

2:05:20 Speaker 2: a piece of art that you could actually drive around

2:05:22 Speaker 2: in and it gives you this very bizarre sensation. But

2:05:27 Speaker 2: the point is that, like, that's not most people. Most

2:05:30 Speaker 2: people want the newest, latest, greatest thing, and this there's

2:05:34 Speaker 2: a motivation to get the newest, latest, greatest thing that

2:05:37 Speaker 2: I think if you just follow that up to its

2:05:40 Speaker 2: logical conclusion, it's going to create life. It's going to

2:05:45 Speaker 2: create I mean, how many films have been made about this,

2:05:47 Speaker 2: you know, ex Machina and all all these different films.

2:05:51 Speaker 2: That's right, that's what we're gonna do. We're gonna do.

2:05:54 Speaker 1: I mean, there's no way we're not going to do that.

2:05:57 Speaker 2: It's it's if I had a bet on one thing,

2:06:00 Speaker 2: if the human race doesn't get wiped out by a

2:06:02 Speaker 2: media or a nuclear war, we're gonna fucking do that.

2:06:05 Speaker 2: We're gonna make a life form one and it's going

2:06:09 Speaker 2: to be almost instantaneously able to figure out all the

2:06:13 Speaker 2: flaws in its own personal programming and make a much

2:06:15 Speaker 2: better version of itself. If it if it's sentient, if

2:06:18 Speaker 2: it has the ability to make decisions, well, I think

2:06:19 Speaker 2: we're close.

2:06:20 Speaker 1: I mean I think I saw some stuff. There's like

2:06:22 Speaker 1: an open AI fiasco going on right now, and there's

2:06:25 Speaker 1: rumor that they might have cracked artificial general intelligence right

2:06:28 Speaker 1: agi and that's Oh Jesus, that's frightening. I mean it

2:06:31 Speaker 1: was like, was it sam Oltman, I think we're talking

2:06:34 Speaker 1: about I think there's like a board of open AI.

2:06:36 Speaker 1: There's some shuffle. I was just removed.

2:06:40 Speaker 2: Well, they removed him, but then apparently the shareholders like

2:06:43 Speaker 2: what the fuck are you doing? And there was so

2:06:45 Speaker 2: much outrage that they're trying to bring him back like instantly.

2:06:49 Speaker 2: So but but Elon had a very good point, like

2:06:52 Speaker 2: what was the motivation behind that? And when you think

2:06:55 Speaker 2: about the implications for the humanity as a whole, because

2:06:58 Speaker 2: this is such an emerging technolology that's so overwhelmingly powerful,

2:07:03 Speaker 2: what happened? Like what's going on? Like I think this

2:07:07 Speaker 2: is one of those things where like we need to know,

2:07:09 Speaker 2: like what was the motivation behind your decision? And if

2:07:11 Speaker 2: it was that he was holding back information about the

2:07:16 Speaker 2: actual creation of artificial general intelligence, but it's already it's

2:07:20 Speaker 2: already happened, And that he's like hesitant because he's a

2:07:24 Speaker 2: little cagey and how he talks about stuff. When I

2:07:27 Speaker 2: was talking to him about you could tell it's like

2:07:30 Speaker 2: a little bit like he kind of knows that he

2:07:34 Speaker 2: is at the forefront of this technology that the worst

2:07:39 Speaker 2: case scenario replaces us.

2:07:42 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, going back to is a program

2:07:46 Speaker 1: with any kind of empathy, et cetera, depending on if

2:07:48 Speaker 1: it handles critical I guess the thing I saw in

2:07:50 Speaker 1: the government, because I did a lot of cyber stuff

2:07:54 Speaker 1: in my career, is as AI gets more advanced, you

2:07:59 Speaker 1: you know, you create, say, offensive cyber tools that literally

2:08:04 Speaker 1: have a mind of their own, and if, say, theoretically,

2:08:08 Speaker 1: you release that on some target and you might not

2:08:11 Speaker 1: be able to touch that target again. So it's a

2:08:13 Speaker 1: one time whoop. You put it in there, Well, how

2:08:17 Speaker 1: do you control it? It's almost like Skynett and the Terminator.

2:08:19 Speaker 1: I hate to use at analogy, but like that was

2:08:21 Speaker 1: my fear when I was working at certain agencies working

2:08:24 Speaker 1: on offensive cyber tools. I'm like, oh my god, this

2:08:27 Speaker 1: is not good. And then of course with cyber right,

2:08:30 Speaker 1: it's the attribution actor. Attribution is the biggest thing. How

2:08:36 Speaker 1: do you know it was, you know, hypothetically Russia that

2:08:38 Speaker 1: used the cyber weapon to attack you? It could have

2:08:41 Speaker 1: been another actor masquerading as that foreign power, using tactics

2:08:45 Speaker 1: techniques procedures IP proxy operations to hide where it was

2:08:49 Speaker 1: coming from. So It's like you have a non kinetic

2:08:54 Speaker 1: fires that can potentially create mutually asshored destruction because you

2:08:59 Speaker 1: could take out critical infrastructure, blow up the power grid,

2:09:03 Speaker 1: et cetera. No radiation but potentially no attribution, or can

2:09:10 Speaker 1: you confuse the attribution such that you don't even know

2:09:12 Speaker 1: who to go to war with. It's really scary to me.

2:09:15 Speaker 1: So it is scary.

2:09:16 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's already happening with social media. Yeah, I mean,

2:09:19 Speaker 2: think about how many troll farms there are on social

2:09:22 Speaker 2: media that are just stirring up discontent. I mean, it's

2:09:26 Speaker 2: an active program that we know that Russia uses that

2:09:30 Speaker 2: is trying to undermine democracy and try to keep people

2:09:32 Speaker 2: fighting with each other. And it's been very effective. And

2:09:35 Speaker 2: if you look at social media, it's just fucking chaos.

2:09:37 Speaker 2: It's just people yelling each other, particularly Twitter or x

2:09:40 Speaker 2: you know that's in Facebook.

2:09:42 Speaker 1: It's like a lot of what's going on.

2:09:44 Speaker 2: One of the studies showed that out of the top

2:09:46 Speaker 2: twenty Christian sites that are on Facebook, nineteen of them

2:09:50 Speaker 2: are run by Russian troll farms. So if we know

2:09:53 Speaker 2: that that on a like relatively rudimentary scare scale, you

2:10:00 Speaker 2: look at the impact of social media versus the impact

2:10:03 Speaker 2: of artificial intelligence. They're already doing that. They're already hiding

2:10:07 Speaker 2: who's responsible and what's the what's the goal, and how

2:10:10 Speaker 2: to manipulate consciousness and how to manipulate influence and how

2:10:15 Speaker 2: people think about things and what the public opinion on

2:10:18 Speaker 2: things are. It's already very effective. You would imagine that

2:10:24 Speaker 2: a creation of artificial intelligence would radically accelerate that one

2:10:28 Speaker 2: hundred percent.

2:10:28 Speaker 1: Then I remember, the deep fake stuff was a real

2:10:32 Speaker 1: problem for my old community because we're like, holy shit,

2:10:35 Speaker 1: you could really fake some stuff, and you got to

2:10:37 Speaker 1: develop algorithms to make sure you can analyze, Oh, hey,

2:10:40 Speaker 1: that that is fake, because you've seen some of the

2:10:42 Speaker 1: deep fakes where it's like Obama or Arnold Schwarzenegger. Yes,

2:10:46 Speaker 1: the Tom Cruise guy. Holy holy shit is crazy crazy,

2:10:50 Speaker 1: Like you're gonna be able to bring actors from the

2:10:51 Speaker 1: dead back at this point, you're going to have like

2:10:53 Speaker 1: Carry Grant, you know, doing a musical or whatever you

2:10:57 Speaker 1: know or whatever you know.

2:10:58 Speaker 2: Well, Bruce Willis, who has some sort of degenerate generative

2:11:03 Speaker 2: neurological condition, sold his likeness for the ability to make

2:11:08 Speaker 2: commercials and all sorts of other things like he's essentially

2:11:12 Speaker 2: saying he's fading unfortunately, and now he will give this thing,

2:11:19 Speaker 2: which is this property, which is Bruce willis his famous person,

2:11:23 Speaker 2: and they will be able to create versions of him

2:11:26 Speaker 2: starring in films well.

2:11:27 Speaker 1: And certainly if you train an AI model, just like

2:11:30 Speaker 1: Chad Gpt, you could actually get almost like what they

2:11:32 Speaker 1: would normally say, yeah, their knowledge, and it's almost like

2:11:37 Speaker 1: having a permanent historian too. You could, like, you know,

2:11:39 Speaker 1: if you want to talk to Clint Eastwood about his

2:11:42 Speaker 1: films in the sixties. After Clin Eastwood, you know, passes,

2:11:45 Speaker 1: you know, may he live forever, but like that would

2:11:48 Speaker 1: be it'd be crazy, really interesting.

2:11:50 Speaker 2: But I mean he might actually be able to give

2:11:51 Speaker 2: you advice. He might be your personal advisor.

2:11:54 Speaker 1: I know, it'd be cool.

2:11:55 Speaker 2: I mean, that's probably one of the things that's going

2:11:56 Speaker 2: to come out of this. But when we think about empathy,

2:12:00 Speaker 2: we also think about just human beings and the way

2:12:05 Speaker 2: we communicate and interact with each other. Empathy is very important,

2:12:08 Speaker 2: and also compassion and forgiveness. All these things are very

2:12:12 Speaker 2: important qualities because we recognize that we are very flawed.

2:12:15 Speaker 2: But when you create something that is not flawed, then

2:12:20 Speaker 2: the need for empathy, the need for all these things

2:12:23 Speaker 2: that we attach to human emotions and human reward systems,

2:12:26 Speaker 2: they'll no longer be a significant issue because you're going

2:12:30 Speaker 2: to be dealing with something that operates on a higher plane.

2:12:32 Speaker 2: It might be the answer to all that ails us,

2:12:35 Speaker 2: which is so terrifying for us because we recognize that

2:12:39 Speaker 2: what we derive, the joy that we derive from love,

2:12:43 Speaker 2: from companionship, from friendship, from community, it's like a key

2:12:47 Speaker 2: component to life on earth for us. But it's also

2:12:51 Speaker 2: because we recognize that without that, we are the Mongols.

2:12:55 Speaker 2: Without that, we're Nazi Germany. Without that, you know, we're Hamas.

2:12:59 Speaker 2: Where whatever the fuck we are, that we recognize as

2:13:01 Speaker 2: being like evil or dangerous or horrible about humans. That

2:13:07 Speaker 2: when we think about the worst case scenario for human beings,

2:13:10 Speaker 2: we always think about things like the Holocaust. We think

2:13:13 Speaker 2: about what is the worst the worst acts that human

2:13:16 Speaker 2: beings are capable of with our current programming and our

2:13:20 Speaker 2: biological flaws, Like what are the worst things we could

2:13:22 Speaker 2: do to terrible awful things? Well, if we don't have

2:13:25 Speaker 2: those problems, if we no longer have envy, we no

2:13:29 Speaker 2: longer have greed, we no longer have evil. If we

2:13:32 Speaker 2: don't have any of those properties, they they don't exist anymore.

2:13:35 Speaker 2: We just have this new form of consciousness that's far superior.

2:13:41 Speaker 1: That's an interesting parallel because you have you know, you're

2:13:45 Speaker 1: no longer maybe apex sentience, if you have artificial intelligence,

2:13:49 Speaker 1: you know, governing certain things, right. And I think that's

2:13:52 Speaker 1: also kind of this psychological issue with this UAP issue,

2:13:57 Speaker 1: where we might not be the apex predator we have.

2:14:01 Speaker 1: We may be that mountain lion, and and we're going

2:14:05 Speaker 1: to have to be comfortable knowing that we're going to

2:14:08 Speaker 1: be vulnerable. There's people far superior that may have malevolent

2:14:12 Speaker 1: intentions maybe not, I don't know, and almost be humbled

2:14:17 Speaker 1: the fact that, like, sorry, we're not the smartest of

2:14:20 Speaker 1: God's creation and that and that might be really hard

2:14:23 Speaker 1: for a lot of people to process. And I think

2:14:24 Speaker 1: that's probably certainly I would imagine one of the deliberations

2:14:29 Speaker 1: they must have done years ago. We're like, oh, we

2:14:31 Speaker 1: can't disclose because you know, people are not going to

2:14:34 Speaker 1: feel comfortable in that worldview, and they're not.

2:14:39 Speaker 2: And then I wonder if these things that we're experiencing

2:14:43 Speaker 2: are the natural progression of what happens when you do

2:14:47 Speaker 2: seed life on planet, or you do accelerate biological life,

2:14:51 Speaker 2: you do have some sort of a genetic intervention where

2:14:55 Speaker 2: you take this thing that it has emerging intelligence, and

2:14:58 Speaker 2: you accelerate it, and that thing will in turn, with

2:15:02 Speaker 2: all of its desire for innovation and creativity and also

2:15:07 Speaker 2: all of its desire to control resources and have power

2:15:10 Speaker 2: and have influence, that it will eventually lead to the

2:15:15 Speaker 2: creation of.

2:15:16 Speaker 1: What we're seeing.

2:15:18 Speaker 2: That these things are the next stage of this process,

2:15:22 Speaker 2: and that maybe we're dealing with one form of that

2:15:26 Speaker 2: next stage, but there's another stage that's a million years

2:15:29 Speaker 2: more advanced than that, that's far superior, that doesn't even

2:15:32 Speaker 2: have a biological limitation in terms of physical space, That

2:15:36 Speaker 2: it exists completely in some other undetectable realm that is

2:15:42 Speaker 2: not no longer thinks about biological limitations of life and

2:15:46 Speaker 2: death and communication. It exists completely in some other space.

2:15:52 Speaker 2: That that's what these things are. And then I always

2:15:54 Speaker 2: wonder when there's a crash, or when there's a body,

2:15:58 Speaker 2: or when there's this that like and people saying, well,

2:16:00 Speaker 2: what if they're so advanced, why are they crashing? Well,

2:16:04 Speaker 2: hold on which what version are we looking at? We're

2:16:08 Speaker 2: not saying there's one thing that's visiting us. If there's

2:16:11 Speaker 2: one thing that's visiting us, and we know where this

2:16:13 Speaker 2: one thing is, we could say, oh, well, that thing

2:16:15 Speaker 2: it deals with a completely different solar system that's not

2:16:17 Speaker 2: as vulnerable. It doesn't have asteroid clouds, it doesn't have

2:16:20 Speaker 2: all these different things where it's like, it doesn't have

2:16:22 Speaker 2: a planet that has super volcanoes. Maybe life evolved in

2:16:25 Speaker 2: a more stable environment and it allowed it to get

2:16:28 Speaker 2: to a far greater technological level, but not the ultimate.

2:16:34 Speaker 1: You know, we might be testing the extent of their adaptability.

2:16:37 Speaker 1: And like I said, are they crashing by accident, right,

2:16:41 Speaker 1: mission failure or on purpose? Right? So? And then of

2:16:45 Speaker 1: course with the far distances and everything, I mean, if

2:16:49 Speaker 1: they're traveling here through some kind of space time metric

2:16:51 Speaker 1: engineering construct, you know, the distances are not as vast

2:16:56 Speaker 1: as you think, right right, It could be going through

2:16:57 Speaker 1: some kind of you know, traversible wormhole or something like

2:17:00 Speaker 1: that where it's like a walk down the street for them,

2:17:02 Speaker 1: it's not you know, a thousand light years.

2:17:04 Speaker 2: We'll just think about communication. Just our communication used to

2:17:08 Speaker 2: be you had to get in front of someone and

2:17:10 Speaker 2: they had to talk to them so you had to

2:17:12 Speaker 2: know their language, you had to either nonverbal or verbal communication,

2:17:15 Speaker 2: You had to figure out a way to say things

2:17:17 Speaker 2: to them. Yeah, that's no longer the case obviously with

2:17:20 Speaker 2: this new Android operating system. It translates. But also the

2:17:24 Speaker 2: fact that you could have a fucking FaceTime call with

2:17:27 Speaker 2: someone in Japan right now and you instantaneously can communicate

2:17:32 Speaker 2: back and forth, which is insane.

2:17:34 Speaker 1: That's a vast distance, but for us it's like stupid.

2:17:36 Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, easy, vast distance and we're tumultaneous. Yeah yeah,

2:17:41 Speaker 2: I mean I was just in Scotland and I was

2:17:43 Speaker 2: facetiming my daughter back home. Yeah, fucking crazy. You're nine

2:17:48 Speaker 2: hours by plane and you're having instantaneous communication, which.

2:17:52 Speaker 1: Is wild shit.

2:17:53 Speaker 2: But that's just that's fucking that's like pong, that's Morse code.

2:18:02 Speaker 2: That's like, it's very primitive in terms of what if

2:18:05 Speaker 2: you physically can be in these places instantaneous. Yeah, and

2:18:09 Speaker 2: why would we assume that that's not eventually going to

2:18:12 Speaker 2: be on the menu.

2:18:13 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just like the conventional propulsion stuff for not

2:18:17 Speaker 1: using an Elon Musk starship to get here, it's like

2:18:20 Speaker 1: you're doing something else.

2:18:21 Speaker 2: We talked to someone from the eighteen hundreds, and you said,

2:18:23 Speaker 2: you're going to go to Nevada. Jesus Christ. You know,

2:18:26 Speaker 2: father is on a wagon. You know that's months, man,

2:18:29 Speaker 2: But no, you fly to Vegas. It's two hours. Yeah,

2:18:31 Speaker 2: it's fucking easy. You know, Like we know that now,

2:18:35 Speaker 2: So why would we assume that there's a limitation to

2:18:39 Speaker 2: that advancement?

2:18:40 Speaker 1: I don't think. Yeah, And of course a friend of mine,

2:18:43 Speaker 1: Eric Weinstein, certainly expouses we don't even have the right

2:18:47 Speaker 1: theoretical frameworks right now. You know, he has his own

2:18:51 Speaker 1: geometric unity theory, and yeah, he's way smarter.

2:18:53 Speaker 2: Than he's too smart, but he's confusing.

2:18:56 Speaker 1: Yeah, he starts talking and you're like, it's so funny.

2:18:59 Speaker 1: If he calls me, I'm like, you got to call

2:19:01 Speaker 1: me in the morning after my twenty four ounce Monster

2:19:03 Speaker 1: Energy drink or or I can't even keep up.

2:19:06 Speaker 2: Man.

2:19:06 Speaker 1: It's like he's on another level.

2:19:09 Speaker 2: He has he's got some unique theories himself about where

2:19:12 Speaker 2: all this stuff is coming from. And it's it's all

2:19:16 Speaker 2: very very very interesting and intriguing, but also makes sense.

2:19:21 Speaker 2: All of it makes sense, including being visited. You know,

2:19:24 Speaker 2: I had this conversation with Neil de grasse Tyson like,

2:19:26 Speaker 2: why would they be interested in us? I'm like, what

2:19:28 Speaker 2: the fuck are you talking?

2:19:29 Speaker 1: We're super interested? Yeah, Neil, I mean obviously he's a

2:19:32 Speaker 1: fine science communicator, kind of the success and successor of

2:19:36 Speaker 1: kind of the Carl Sagan kind.

2:19:39 Speaker 2: Of I think feels a little bit more open minded.

2:19:41 Speaker 1: Yeah. I like Carl better, but more of a f

2:19:44 Speaker 1: I wish he was still alive.

2:19:46 Speaker 2: I love I watched really yeah, really really.

2:19:50 Speaker 1: I remember my my aunt gave me Cosmos by Carl

2:19:54 Speaker 1: Sagan when I was in middle school, and it was

2:19:55 Speaker 1: that book was from the eighties, but that book tripped

2:19:57 Speaker 1: me out and I was like, I to study science,

2:20:01 Speaker 1: and I read it was Brief History of Time by

2:20:03 Speaker 1: Stephen Hawking. And I read those two books when I

2:20:06 Speaker 1: was like in eighth grade, and I was like, this

2:20:08 Speaker 1: is trippy. I want to study astronomy. This is insane.

2:20:11 Speaker 1: But I ultimately used kind of my technical background to

2:20:15 Speaker 1: be a spook, you know, for the government. But I

2:20:18 Speaker 1: still observe. I have a big telescope and I live

2:20:20 Speaker 1: like super dark skies in Colorado, and I still have

2:20:24 Speaker 1: that boyhood fascination of the cosmos. Now, ironically, I found

2:20:29 Speaker 1: out something else that kind of confirms that the cosmos

2:20:32 Speaker 1: is not lifeless, and you know, God paints with a

2:20:35 Speaker 1: broad brush, as like the Vatican has expoused a couple

2:20:38 Speaker 1: of years ago when they said this is okay with

2:20:40 Speaker 1: their theology. I have a.

2:20:42 Speaker 2: Theory that the universe itself was God.

2:20:45 Speaker 1: I think that's like what I was talking about with

2:20:47 Speaker 1: the you know, multi dimensional creator creating universes.

2:20:51 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we have a very limited idea of

2:20:54 Speaker 2: when we say God, when God created the heavens and right, right,

2:20:58 Speaker 2: but what do you what are we saying? I think

2:21:00 Speaker 2: it's the universe itself. I think it's one thing, and

2:21:04 Speaker 2: that this one thing it seeks to create these things

2:21:10 Speaker 2: that continually push the envelope and may be Gods themselves eventually.

2:21:15 Speaker 2: I think if you extrapolate from our ability versus the

2:21:18 Speaker 2: ability of an amoeba, and you continue to move that along,

2:21:22 Speaker 2: what does that do, Well, it's going to be able

2:21:24 Speaker 2: to create universes. There's already been like theoretical papers that

2:21:28 Speaker 2: have been written about the creation of other things like

2:21:33 Speaker 2: black holes, other things like a universe. So like, what

2:21:37 Speaker 2: what is involved in the creation of a universe, What

2:21:39 Speaker 2: is involved in the Big Bang?

2:21:41 Speaker 1: Can that be replicated.

2:21:42 Speaker 2: Well not now, but if AI becomes sentient and AI

2:21:49 Speaker 2: eventually makes far greater versions of itself, if it keeps

2:21:53 Speaker 2: doing that, like what what what are the limits of

2:21:56 Speaker 2: its potential?

2:21:57 Speaker 1: Creates the matrix?

2:21:58 Speaker 2: Let's create literally really creates a simulated environment that's indiscernible.

2:22:04 Speaker 2: You can't tell the difference between that and regular life.

2:22:07 Speaker 2: Well maybe because there is no difference. Maybe that is

2:22:10 Speaker 2: what I mean. That's the theory of simulation theaty.

2:22:13 Speaker 1: Yeah, simulation theory. Yeah, familiar, and that that is a

2:22:16 Speaker 1: possibility because uh, the universe seems like a little too perfect.

2:22:21 Speaker 1: It's a little strange, very created to me. So just

2:22:25 Speaker 1: like we're in the Goldilock zone, perfect temperature. Like it's

2:22:29 Speaker 1: just we're still about the big bang itself.

2:22:32 Speaker 2: What what happened something smaller than the head of a pin,

2:22:36 Speaker 2: for no known reason becomes everything?

2:22:40 Speaker 1: Yeah? Okay, And what's the universe expanding into? Right, It's

2:22:44 Speaker 1: like a quantum foam or whatever. Like the latest theory

2:22:47 Speaker 1: is that's like beyond me.

2:22:48 Speaker 2: And then it perhaps just retracts back down to that

2:22:52 Speaker 2: infinitely small thing and then expands again. Yeah, and that

2:22:55 Speaker 2: this is an endless cycle and that We're just so

2:22:58 Speaker 2: limited because of our biological limitation. Our life and death

2:23:02 Speaker 2: is such a small, little, tiny blip. It's so minuscule

2:23:07 Speaker 2: in terms of just the overall known life of the universe.

2:23:11 Speaker 2: And then you have the James Web telescope. That's you know,

2:23:14 Speaker 2: there's people that question the actual length of time that

2:23:19 Speaker 2: occurred between the Big Bang and now that maybe it

2:23:21 Speaker 2: might be far longer. And there's people like Brian Keating

2:23:23 Speaker 2: they say, that's not that's not correct. It's just a

2:23:26 Speaker 2: lack of understanding of what we understand currently about the

2:23:30 Speaker 2: creation of galaxies.

2:23:31 Speaker 1: The Yeah, because I mean, obviously the length of the

2:23:34 Speaker 1: age of the universe keeps on getting older and older,

2:23:36 Speaker 1: and a lot of that's because of the Doppler fit

2:23:38 Speaker 1: Doppler shift, right, the red shift. Yes, the galaxies are

2:23:41 Speaker 1: accelerating away. You know, we can calculate what the what

2:23:46 Speaker 1: their origin point probably was, and how long it took

2:23:48 Speaker 1: for them to speed up like that, right.

2:23:50 Speaker 2: And only based on our current understanding, Yes, which is

2:23:54 Speaker 2: obviously at least fairly limited in terms of what its

2:23:57 Speaker 2: potential is.

2:23:58 Speaker 1: Well. Yeah, like we still don't quite understand the origin

2:24:01 Speaker 1: of the moon. The moon is at the right location

2:24:04 Speaker 1: the cause of solar and lunar eclipses. It's like the

2:24:06 Speaker 1: right apparent size to block out the Sun. It's like

2:24:10 Speaker 1: super weird. Same thing with like Mars. We're not sure,

2:24:13 Speaker 1: like what happened near where Mars had some probable life

2:24:18 Speaker 1: on it, either a proto planet hit it or there

2:24:21 Speaker 1: was some kind of impact that vaporized stuff, and like

2:24:24 Speaker 1: who knows.

2:24:25 Speaker 2: Who knows, And this is just this little tiny neighborhood

2:24:29 Speaker 2: that we're looking at. It's like we are in our

2:24:31 Speaker 2: backyard looking for evidence of like life in Africa, you

2:24:37 Speaker 2: know what I mean, You're not going to figure it

2:24:38 Speaker 2: out here. So there's just we're just looking at it

2:24:42 Speaker 2: such a small scale in terms of what we could

2:24:45 Speaker 2: potentially discover or potentially observe. Yeah, I often wonder, you know,

2:24:51 Speaker 2: when we're seeing, especially with the idea of UAP's UFO crafts,

2:24:56 Speaker 2: if we're seeing a version of what we will become,

2:25:00 Speaker 2: or something like us becomes if given enough time.

2:25:03 Speaker 1: That that I mean, there's like a doctor Mike Masters at

2:25:06 Speaker 1: Montana State. He literally postulates, you know, he says time travelers.

2:25:12 Speaker 1: We could debate time travel, but like he thinks it

2:25:14 Speaker 1: might be like an advanced form of Homo sapien is

2:25:17 Speaker 1: what we're seeing coming back. Yeah, like a breakaway civilization

2:25:20 Speaker 1: and we're coming back to see an older version of

2:25:22 Speaker 1: ourself that was left on Earth or something like that.

2:25:24 Speaker 2: Well, the way we would visit like North Sentinel Island

2:25:27 Speaker 2: and visit those people that are trapped on that island

2:25:29 Speaker 2: that are uncontacted.

2:25:31 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then a lot of you know,

2:25:34 Speaker 1: there's also like cargo cult religions and stuff. You know,

2:25:37 Speaker 1: the South Pacific World War II, they worshiped the fifty

2:25:42 Speaker 1: one and stuff, like they thought those were UFOs, but

2:25:44 Speaker 1: really they were just us, you know, yeah, and I.

2:25:47 Speaker 2: Think we were probably alien to them. I mean yeah,

2:25:50 Speaker 2: I mean just look at how Cortes looked to the

2:25:53 Speaker 2: people that you know, had no idea that people could

2:25:55 Speaker 2: ride horses, Like, what the fuck is going on? These

2:25:58 Speaker 2: guys are riding horses.

2:25:59 Speaker 1: Yeah, these are gods, These white guys coming in.

2:26:02 Speaker 2: And they've become on a ship in the ocean and

2:26:05 Speaker 2: they ride horses.

2:26:06 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

2:26:09 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all based on our limited understanding. And for someone,

2:26:14 Speaker 2: whether it's the federal government or whether it's military contractors,

2:26:17 Speaker 2: for someone to have key elements that could give us

2:26:22 Speaker 2: a better understanding of this whole picture. It's it's really

2:26:29 Speaker 2: inexcusable to not relay that to all of humanity. So

2:26:34 Speaker 2: this is too much information to be secret. It's too

2:26:38 Speaker 2: important if it is real, it's too important for someone

2:26:43 Speaker 2: to have access to just because they have power and

2:26:46 Speaker 2: money and influence.

2:26:47 Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems insane. I mean, that's the whole primer

2:26:52 Speaker 1: for what I did. I mean, it's I you know,

2:26:55 Speaker 1: I think I'm a pretty moren ethical person. I just

2:26:57 Speaker 1: could not live with myself if I didn't try to

2:26:59 Speaker 1: like make a difference, even though it was very uncomfortable,

2:27:02 Speaker 1: Personal privacy and and you know, professional and personal health

2:27:06 Speaker 1: was at risk, you know.

2:27:07 Speaker 2: So it also seems like the public understanding and appreciation

2:27:11 Speaker 2: of these things, particularly after the twenty seventeen article in

2:27:13 Speaker 2: the New York Times, has changed. There's been a shift

2:27:16 Speaker 2: whereas before, if you would talk about UFOs or the

2:27:19 Speaker 2: idea of extratrustural life, you were automatically lumped into this

2:27:23 Speaker 2: group of people that believes in bigfoot. You know, it's

2:27:25 Speaker 2: like you're in the lock nest monster.

2:27:28 Speaker 1: You're kind of alone.

2:27:29 Speaker 2: Who likes fringe things because probably got problems in your

2:27:32 Speaker 2: own life you're not addressing and so you're distracted.

2:27:34 Speaker 1: It's like a gambler or something like that.

2:27:36 Speaker 2: You're just like distracting yourself with this craziness in order

2:27:40 Speaker 2: to ignore the reality of existence itself, which is so

2:27:43 Speaker 2: complicated and difficult to manage. And then I think that

2:27:46 Speaker 2: if we had a better understanding of the overall scale

2:27:53 Speaker 2: of the potential of life in the universe, based on

2:27:55 Speaker 2: what we know, like physical evidence, undeniable physical evidence, it

2:28:00 Speaker 2: shows us that we're not alone. That would be a

2:28:04 Speaker 2: massive change in just the overall shift of consciousness on Earth.

2:28:10 Speaker 2: If we could understand that these territorial disputes that we have,

2:28:15 Speaker 2: which are almost always over resources or over land or

2:28:19 Speaker 2: over religions and ideologies, if we could understand that these

2:28:23 Speaker 2: are nonsense in the vast scope of the universe itself.

2:28:27 Speaker 2: And this is the the was that effect that the

2:28:31 Speaker 2: people that get into the space station have an astronautics.

2:28:36 Speaker 1: Overview effect? Yes, William Shatner had that when he went

2:28:40 Speaker 1: up in the Blue Origin.

2:28:41 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure everybody has it. I mean,

2:28:44 Speaker 2: I'm sure it's just like you go like, oh my god,

2:28:45 Speaker 2: like what are we doing?

2:28:47 Speaker 1: Like this is one, and that's how I felt. I

2:28:49 Speaker 1: mean like, after I found all this stuff, I could

2:28:51 Speaker 1: have continue my career. You know, made lieutenant colonel here

2:28:54 Speaker 1: this winter, made senior executive service in a year or two,

2:28:57 Speaker 1: did national security stuff. But I'm like sitting in my

2:29:00 Speaker 1: office and I'm like, there's better things for me to

2:29:04 Speaker 1: care about than Russian troop movements. Like we're not alone, right,

2:29:10 Speaker 1: this is insane, Like I have to like pull the

2:29:13 Speaker 1: whistle on this. This is insane because certainly the people

2:29:17 Speaker 1: who we talked to are not lying, and the documents

2:29:20 Speaker 1: I meticulously went through they were not forgeries, they were

2:29:23 Speaker 1: not deception material. So it's just like I have to

2:29:26 Speaker 1: do something.

2:29:27 Speaker 2: I'm sure you've seen those Freedom of Information Act disclosure

2:29:30 Speaker 2: papers from the CIA. From god, it was like the

2:29:34 Speaker 2: nineteen fifties where they're detailing all the various forms of

2:29:37 Speaker 2: life and that we know are currently that currently exist.

2:29:42 Speaker 2: And you remember that, Jamie, we pulled up that document.

2:29:46 Speaker 2: Do you think you can find it, Jamie, You'll find it.

2:29:49 Speaker 2: But it's like nineteen fifty something where they were discussing

2:29:53 Speaker 2: these things interesting.

2:29:53 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not sure which ones you're talking about. I

2:29:55 Speaker 1: have to see them.

2:29:56 Speaker 2: So it's pretty weird stuff because like if they knew

2:29:59 Speaker 2: about this in nineteen fifty, like how did they know?

2:30:01 Speaker 1: Well, there was like CIA docs about consciousness and like

2:30:04 Speaker 1: weird remote viewing stuff. I mean, besides the Stargate program

2:30:09 Speaker 1: that we're released in the Foyer reading Room on CIA's

2:30:12 Speaker 1: website too, that are pretty trippy, where like, wow, CIA

2:30:14 Speaker 1: is looking into some really interesting stuff. I mean, they're

2:30:17 Speaker 1: a hardcore intel agency. What's going on there, But.

2:30:21 Speaker 2: It makes sense that they would kind of have to

2:30:23 Speaker 2: find out if that's bullshit or not, Like you can't

2:30:26 Speaker 2: ignore that if you're really doing your job, if your

2:30:29 Speaker 2: job is intelligence, Like okay, like let's look at this.

2:30:32 Speaker 1: Well, it's an aspect of the phenomenon because it's like

2:30:35 Speaker 1: a reach out from the crash Retrieval program like, Hey,

2:30:38 Speaker 1: I need you to look into some weird stuff because

2:30:40 Speaker 1: it might be the key unlock for something that we

2:30:42 Speaker 1: got in a warehouse.

2:30:43 Speaker 2: You knoweah, so whoa yeah, yeah, So as it stands,

2:30:49 Speaker 2: right now, what what's the future for this stuff? What's

2:30:52 Speaker 2: the future for these disclosures and what? Yeah, what are

2:30:56 Speaker 2: the bottlenecks?

2:30:57 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, certainly from the governmental prop you know,

2:31:00 Speaker 1: as long as the House doesn't kill the Schumer Amendment.

2:31:03 Speaker 1: And I'm you know, that's why I'm discussing it here

2:31:05 Speaker 1: with you, because if they don't pass it, it's going

2:31:09 Speaker 1: to be the greatest set back to humankind in US history.

2:31:12 Speaker 1: Literally that. So the Presidential Panel gets and paneled about

2:31:17 Speaker 1: ninety days or so after the passage of the bill,

2:31:20 Speaker 1: so by by Christmas, as long as it doesn't get killed,

2:31:25 Speaker 1: will be in the National Defense Authorization Act. Panel will

2:31:28 Speaker 1: be formed, say February March. Then they have a three

2:31:34 Speaker 1: hundred day process to develop a initial plan for the president.

2:31:38 Speaker 1: And I don't know if Chuck Schumer and his staff

2:31:41 Speaker 1: for being kind of crafty or whatever, but the three

2:31:44 Speaker 1: hundred days, if you actually do it out, it's like

2:31:47 Speaker 1: the election. So I don't know if they want to

2:31:50 Speaker 1: make it an election issue, which certainly if this act

2:31:53 Speaker 1: doesn't pass, I think it needs to be an election

2:31:55 Speaker 1: issue because the Senior Executive needs to rule on this.

2:31:58 Speaker 1: If Congress can't get their shit tother, it'd be quite honest.

2:32:02 Speaker 1: And we have a plan out to twenty thirty where

2:32:05 Speaker 1: this stuff starts getting rolled out. Knock on wood, perfect storm.

2:32:08 Speaker 1: Things could get delayed, but then in parallel. And that's

2:32:12 Speaker 1: kind of why I helped found the Sole Foundation with

2:32:15 Speaker 1: Gary Nolan, doctor Peter Scaife issues an anthropologists as well.

2:32:20 Speaker 1: Is we wanted to figure out the STEM outreach. We

2:32:23 Speaker 1: wanted to figure out the public policy, national policy to

2:32:26 Speaker 1: advise the US and its allies on this issue, you know,

2:32:29 Speaker 1: and we're happy. Like I said, I'm not here to

2:32:33 Speaker 1: slap the government in its entirety and monish everybody, Like

2:32:36 Speaker 1: I think there needs to be the truth and reconciliation process.

2:32:38 Speaker 1: But I think our foundation we want to be like, Okay,

2:32:41 Speaker 1: well bring us in as a think tank, if you know,

2:32:45 Speaker 1: based on my experience and experience of my colleagues, like

2:32:47 Speaker 1: you have an issue with X, well, let's figure out

2:32:49 Speaker 1: how to roll this out and how to you know,

2:32:53 Speaker 1: incentivize the National Science Foundation to look in this make

2:32:56 Speaker 1: this like you know, it's dual use, right, you might

2:33:00 Speaker 1: develop a unique scientific process that actually works well with

2:33:07 Speaker 1: nanobiology or something like that, but also has dual use

2:33:10 Speaker 1: with UAP. So there's parallel tracks. I mean, there's public discovery.

2:33:15 Speaker 1: It's like the Galileo Project with av Lobe, right that

2:33:17 Speaker 1: they're trying to on their own collect techno signatures, which

2:33:23 Speaker 1: as I applaud that, I mean, obviously the government knows

2:33:25 Speaker 1: a lot about that, but we don't want to obviously

2:33:28 Speaker 1: rely on the US government to do all the work

2:33:30 Speaker 1: for us and also to be honest. So I think

2:33:34 Speaker 1: having a parallel track, and you know, Galileo Projects Soul Foundation,

2:33:38 Speaker 1: Ryan Graves has his own foundation as well for pilots

2:33:42 Speaker 1: and people who've seen unique things to provide that data

2:33:46 Speaker 1: to people. So I think you got to have those

2:33:48 Speaker 1: dual tracks, and you know, hopefully we can create a

2:33:51 Speaker 1: tsunami event where the US government its allies and maybe

2:33:53 Speaker 1: the our avisaries. But really, if the US government doesn't

2:33:57 Speaker 1: get their house in order, he I mean, you could

2:34:01 Speaker 1: have uncontrolled disclosure events such that either maybe the non

2:34:05 Speaker 1: human intelligence is like, yeah, let's do it. Or what

2:34:09 Speaker 1: if one of our adversaries decides to disclose and they

2:34:13 Speaker 1: become the messiah figure on this and we lose sovereignty

2:34:17 Speaker 1: or national supremacy in that regard from an open and

2:34:21 Speaker 1: honest civil society perspective. So I but I think the

2:34:25 Speaker 1: governments were getting close.

2:34:26 Speaker 2: I think as long as before just the fact that

2:34:31 Speaker 2: they brought you in to have these conversations.

2:34:36 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I'm I'm still advising the US governments on this,

2:34:39 Speaker 1: and and I'm trying to carefully message this, put all

2:34:43 Speaker 1: the broad things on the table, and I'm not trying

2:34:46 Speaker 1: to be coy. I'm not trying to be concealed anything.

2:34:49 Speaker 1: But it's like there's real national security and collateral damage

2:34:53 Speaker 1: with just releasing this willy nilly, And I'm just trying

2:34:56 Speaker 1: to get the government to get a plan together here

2:34:58 Speaker 1: and just be open and honest with the people of

2:35:01 Speaker 1: the world.

2:35:01 Speaker 2: Really so, and there's still the bottleneck with these military

2:35:05 Speaker 2: contractors that allegedly have access to these things.

2:35:08 Speaker 1: Yeah, and like to those guys and I know some

2:35:11 Speaker 1: of them, and the individuals that hold the keys, like

2:35:16 Speaker 1: this is a boon, Like this is don't look at

2:35:17 Speaker 1: it like you're going to lose money. This is a

2:35:20 Speaker 1: recruiting opportunity. Yes, you're going to have to let other

2:35:24 Speaker 1: people in the cookie jar. That's how a fair and

2:35:27 Speaker 1: free society works. And they should be able to compete

2:35:29 Speaker 1: for work. And because that was one of the main

2:35:32 Speaker 1: I talked to some individuals that were in an informal

2:35:34 Speaker 1: session for a previous administration on should we disclose or

2:35:37 Speaker 1: not for a former president and brilliant, insightful what they

2:35:41 Speaker 1: told me. And one of the biggest impasses to disclosure

2:35:45 Speaker 1: wasn't the ontological shock from a socioeconomic or theological perspective,

2:35:49 Speaker 1: it was, well, there's some white collar crime. We violated

2:35:53 Speaker 1: the federal acquisition regulations. We sol sourced this work to

2:35:57 Speaker 1: some big companies for decades. Tractors are going to litigate

2:36:01 Speaker 1: this to the Supreme Court saying they lost billions of

2:36:04 Speaker 1: projected income because they didn't get the bid on the work,

2:36:07 Speaker 1: and it's going to be this like liability disaster for

2:36:11 Speaker 1: the US government. And the problem with that is is

2:36:14 Speaker 1: like I understand that, but like, that's why you need

2:36:16 Speaker 1: to have a truth and reconciliation process. It's almost like

2:36:20 Speaker 1: the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and post apartheid South Africa,

2:36:24 Speaker 1: where people who committed like murder came in and was like,

2:36:27 Speaker 1: this is what happened here you go and you know,

2:36:30 Speaker 1: they don't get convicted of those crimes. And I'm not

2:36:32 Speaker 1: saying I mean people who've committed murder as it relates

2:36:34 Speaker 1: to this subject, okay, we should probably hold them accountable.

2:36:37 Speaker 1: But for some of this stuff, there needs to be

2:36:39 Speaker 1: a process where we kind of mitigate some of those

2:36:43 Speaker 1: unfortunate legal issues. But that was one of the main issues.

2:36:48 Speaker 1: A certain group for a reasonably recent administration came up

2:36:53 Speaker 1: with and advised that president, Hey, look there's going to

2:36:56 Speaker 1: be a lot of Supreme Court stuff. Let's not be

2:36:59 Speaker 1: that makes me that guy. So it's like the like,

2:37:01 Speaker 1: that's the barrier, that's the reason. Come on, well, it's ridiculous.

2:37:06 Speaker 1: It makes sense though that they would think that way,

2:37:08 Speaker 1: because I do believe that lawsuits would emerge from something

2:37:11 Speaker 1: like that. Oh, certainly. It's and also it's like the

2:37:14 Speaker 1: government admitting that we can't protect its citizenry. You know,

2:37:18 Speaker 1: you know these non human intelligence you know, want to

2:37:21 Speaker 1: do something to you. Sorry, we don't ad encountermeasures to that.

2:37:24 Speaker 1: You know, it's like this, you know, there's a social

2:37:26 Speaker 1: contract between the citizens and the government. We can protect you,

2:37:30 Speaker 1: et cetera. And like in this case, it's like it's

2:37:33 Speaker 1: an enigma. But I think this is almost like remember

2:37:35 Speaker 1: like after nine to eleven. I was in high school

2:37:37 Speaker 1: wh nine eleven happened, and you know, people were afraid

2:37:40 Speaker 1: of dirty bombs, terrorists. We didn't we didn't know what

2:37:42 Speaker 1: was going to happen next. We lived in fear, but

2:37:45 Speaker 1: like you know, we banded together in the presence of

2:37:48 Speaker 1: fear and apprehension and unknowing what the world was going

2:37:52 Speaker 1: to be and we made it through it. Now, I mean,

2:37:55 Speaker 1: that's a course analogy to this, but I people just

2:37:59 Speaker 1: have to think mindset like, it's going to be a

2:38:01 Speaker 1: little scary. It's not going to be like Kumbaya, let's

2:38:03 Speaker 1: let's move the shit to Themithsonian and check it out.

2:38:06 Speaker 1: It's going to be there's you know, awkward and things

2:38:11 Speaker 1: we're gonna have to address sociologically.

2:38:13 Speaker 2: I guess are you optimistic about how all this lays out?

2:38:18 Speaker 1: I am. I mean it's kind of like when I

2:38:21 Speaker 1: was testifying in the public hearing oddly bipartisan in a

2:38:24 Speaker 1: good way. I had AOC and Matt Gates like agreeing

2:38:27 Speaker 1: on something and they were like smiling at each other. Okay, crazy,

2:38:30 Speaker 1: it's crazy, you know. I'm like, look at there's AOC,

2:38:33 Speaker 1: there's Matt Gates, there's timber Shat. I mean, there's like

2:38:35 Speaker 1: people Garcia, like people that wouldn't see eye to eye

2:38:38 Speaker 1: on most such such a human issue because they they

2:38:41 Speaker 1: want to know the truth too. And I don't think

2:38:43 Speaker 1: the leaders in Congress want to be told that they're

2:38:47 Speaker 1: second class citizens. I mean a lot of presidents weren't

2:38:50 Speaker 1: brief to everything. Some presidents knew a lot more than others.

2:38:52 Speaker 1: And I have a pretty good beat on that. And

2:38:55 Speaker 1: it's like, wait, the chief executive that also forms foreign policy,

2:39:00 Speaker 1: you don't tell him about a ostensibly a foreign element.

2:39:03 Speaker 1: So how do they as chief of state? How do

2:39:06 Speaker 1: they form foreign policy when you don't fully brief them

2:39:09 Speaker 1: on a foreign elements like classifying the existence of Russia? Right,

2:39:14 Speaker 1: So you're actually, you know, non constitutional by not allowing

2:39:19 Speaker 1: our commander in chief all information sometimes, you know. And

2:39:24 Speaker 1: I don't know what Harry Re talked to Joe Biden.

2:39:27 Speaker 1: I mean, it was certainly the substance that I mentioned here.

2:39:31 Speaker 1: And I hope that Joe Biden has been briefed on

2:39:34 Speaker 1: the program, so to speak. At least I'm giving him

2:39:37 Speaker 1: an oral, unclassified briefing right now. I guess if he

2:39:40 Speaker 1: hasn't been in you know, I'm happy to you know,

2:39:43 Speaker 1: talk to Jake Sullivan or Avel Haynes, and Avel Haynes

2:39:46 Speaker 1: if she's not briefed like she's supposed to be brief

2:39:49 Speaker 1: to all intelligence in the country, it's fifty US Code,

2:39:52 Speaker 1: Section thirty twenty four. The Director now National Intelligence has

2:39:57 Speaker 1: allowed everything from all federal agencies that's intel related. Well, ma'am,

2:40:01 Speaker 1: if you don't know what I'm talking about, we have

2:40:03 Speaker 1: a problem because you're not being briefed by CI director

2:40:08 Speaker 1: and some other agencies.

2:40:10 Speaker 2: So well, listen, David. I really appreciate what you've done.

2:40:16 Speaker 2: I think, thanks. You've done a great service to humanity

2:40:20 Speaker 2: just by taking a stand and communicating these ideas and

2:40:25 Speaker 2: letting people know how much of this is real. And

2:40:30 Speaker 2: you know, you've opened up a world of discourse that

2:40:33 Speaker 2: probably would not have existed if you hadn't done that.

2:40:36 Speaker 1: Thanks. Yeah, I mean this is not easy.

2:40:38 Speaker 2: I'm sure, so I appreciate it. Thank you very much

2:40:40 Speaker 2: for being here, and good luck in the future.

2:40:44 Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you. All right by everybody,