Investigative Researcher/Writer PETER ROBBINS- The Mystery of the Moon, Mars & UFOs

0:10 Speaker 1: Testing one two three four.

0:12 Speaker 2: Okay testing one two three four, where both of our

0:15 Speaker 2: audios are coming in clean levels are good. Today on

0:22 Speaker 2: total disclosure, we're at contact in the desert. I'm super

0:25 Speaker 2: excited to be here, and today we're joined by a

0:28 Speaker 2: highly respected voice in the world of UFO research, a

0:31 Speaker 2: man whose work has helped shape the modern disclosure on

0:34 Speaker 2: government secrecy, non human intelligence, and the mysteries just beyond

0:38 Speaker 2: our reach. Peter Robbins is a veteran investigative writer, author,

0:42 Speaker 2: and lecturer best known for his decades of meticulous research

0:47 Speaker 2: into the UFO phenomenon and the powerful institutions that keep

0:51 Speaker 2: secrets from the public eye. From his co authored work

0:55 Speaker 2: Left at Eastgate examining the infamous Randelson Forrest incident, who

0:59 Speaker 2: is powerful critiques of disinformation in the UFO field, Peter

1:03 Speaker 2: brings a depth of knowledge and credibility you can match. Ay,

1:07 Speaker 2: we're diving into one of the most compelling controversial topics

1:10 Speaker 2: in ufology, the move.

1:12 Speaker 3: The secrets of Mars all of it.

1:14 Speaker 2: Is it simply a lifeless satellite like they say?

1:17 Speaker 3: Or is there more to the story.

1:18 Speaker 2: Could NASA be hiding what they truly have discovered during

1:21 Speaker 2: the Apollo missions, or astronauts witness to unknown crafts or

1:24 Speaker 2: artificial structures that defy explanation.

1:27 Speaker 3: I want to welcome my friend Peter Robbins. Thank you, sir.

1:30 Speaker 1: What pleasure to be here.

1:31 Speaker 3: Pleasure.

1:31 Speaker 2: So I've always been I've always been fascinated with with

1:38 Speaker 2: with NASA the Apollo missions because I think it's it

1:42 Speaker 2: really is. Our greatest achievement as a species is to

1:48 Speaker 2: leave our planet and step foot on a celestial body

1:52 Speaker 2: that is not our own, that takes serious advancement. But

1:56 Speaker 2: why are they hiding what's really up there? Or how

2:02 Speaker 2: is it that the Moon became classified in the first place.

2:05 Speaker 1: I can't tell you definitively because I don't know, But

2:09 Speaker 1: based on my time and research, I guess I can

2:13 Speaker 1: make better educated guesses than a lot of folks. And

2:16 Speaker 1: the dynamic is much the same as what we see

2:19 Speaker 1: in the historic narrative of the UFO cover up going

2:23 Speaker 1: back to nineteen forty seven officially, which is those people

2:27 Speaker 1: in power, the folks that move the chess pieces around

2:31 Speaker 1: that determine what happens. See, this is potentially uncontrollable in

2:35 Speaker 1: terms of the results of the information released. Study after

2:39 Speaker 1: study has been done, many of them made public on

2:43 Speaker 1: the possible implications of full disclosure, sociologically, theologically, in terms

2:51 Speaker 1: of world economies, in terms of our technologies. At the

2:54 Speaker 1: heart of it are a series of hardcore lies and

2:58 Speaker 1: sometimes lies biomission. We can not tell the truth as

3:04 Speaker 1: easily by simply not stating what is the important central

3:08 Speaker 1: fact withholding information can be as equally devastating to the

3:12 Speaker 1: truth and just lying about it. So for a moment,

3:16 Speaker 1: let's put ourselves in the place of some of these

3:18 Speaker 1: secret keepers. Our earliest missions to the moon, very simple,

3:24 Speaker 1: certain locations and back we go. And then Mars. NASA

3:28 Speaker 1: has relied on Hasselblad optical technology, absolutely terrific optics, wonderful cameras,

3:36 Speaker 1: and I have no idea of the number, but certainly

3:39 Speaker 1: some hundreds of thousands of photographs have been cataloged. Let's

3:45 Speaker 1: think for a moment of the job of a certain

3:51 Speaker 1: caduret of people who work for NASA who are first

3:55 Speaker 1: have the security clearance to review these photos looking for

4:00 Speaker 1: problematic anomalies, things that simply shouldn't be there. And I'm

4:04 Speaker 1: talking about in real human terms, spending X number of

4:10 Speaker 1: minutes on a very fine first class eight x ten

4:13 Speaker 1: glossy photograph with a ten power loop and just looking

4:18 Speaker 1: like a jeweler's loop, because if it's much larger magnification,

4:22 Speaker 1: it will be distorted. And the time and the attention

4:26 Speaker 1: that it takes to do that and cover every micrometer,

4:30 Speaker 1: things are going to be glossed over. Sometimes folks mean, well,

4:35 Speaker 1: but you attired at the end of the day. And first,

4:38 Speaker 1: it's an impossible job, as would be like declassifying our

4:43 Speaker 1: tens and tens and tens of millions of secrets. We

4:46 Speaker 1: don't have the human power to do it. And in

4:50 Speaker 1: the course of the decades, surprising number of problematic images

4:54 Speaker 1: have been released and NASA's policy is simply either never

4:59 Speaker 1: to comment on them or it's a point I'll be

5:02 Speaker 1: making in my presentation tomorrow. A very understandable human condition

5:06 Speaker 1: we call paradolia, right, which is that tendency of us

5:11 Speaker 1: folks not just to see, but to want to see

5:13 Speaker 1: that profile on the mountainside, a recognizable image on a

5:18 Speaker 1: tortilla chip, you know, a dog barking in the wood.

5:21 Speaker 3: Green Jesus in a cloud.

5:23 Speaker 1: Clouds definitely right, and more often than not they are

5:29 Speaker 1: just that. But there's a point where logic, probability and chance, organization,

5:36 Speaker 1: random meetings, you go into a territory beyond it where

5:42 Speaker 1: it really might be what it appears to be.

5:45 Speaker 2: Right, It's almost easier for it to be the more

5:50 Speaker 2: outrageous of the claims, because then the debt, the the

5:53 Speaker 2: de bunkings are either just not commenting like you said,

5:58 Speaker 2: or you know, just talking it up.

6:00 Speaker 3: To some sort of psychiatric.

6:04 Speaker 1: Trick of the eye belonging to believe.

6:06 Speaker 2: Also, so exactly that and that, and I have a

6:10 Speaker 2: real problem with some of this stuff because you know,

6:13 Speaker 2: it's almost like putting a classification on top of a

6:16 Speaker 2: snail and saying that we have no we can't know

6:19 Speaker 2: that snails exist. If there are structures and and there

6:23 Speaker 2: are remnants of even if it's inhabited or not. If

6:27 Speaker 2: there is some sort of dark side of the moon

6:30 Speaker 2: structural city or something, this would the implication of that

6:36 Speaker 2: would change human history.

6:38 Speaker 1: And not only is that the case, but it's not

6:41 Speaker 1: just on the dark side of the moon.

6:43 Speaker 2: Right, People like Ingoswana and remote viewers have been looking

6:45 Speaker 2: at the moon.

6:46 Speaker 3: And then why haven't we been back.

6:47 Speaker 2: Since the sixties, seventies, seventies, I'm sorry, Yeah, there's a

6:52 Speaker 2: lot of questions there and why we know that NASA

6:54 Speaker 2: has been caught air brushing photos.

6:57 Speaker 1: You bring up a very interesting point. When I began

7:00 Speaker 1: to get involved in this project, and for me, my

7:04 Speaker 1: professional life has been a series of ongoing self assigned projects.

7:09 Speaker 1: What determines them is my level of interest as an

7:12 Speaker 1: independent researcher. You know, in the equivalent and you're doing,

7:16 Speaker 1: you follow that divining rod of your own interest and

7:19 Speaker 1: where dips you follow. And with the exception of the

7:23 Speaker 1: world of UFO abduction studies, which is where I began,

7:27 Speaker 1: where I keep coming back to, and the talk that

7:30 Speaker 1: I would have done on Thursday had my flight arrived

7:34 Speaker 1: on to.

7:35 Speaker 3: Come on airlines get it together.

7:38 Speaker 1: This subject, although not directly you know, caddying cornered into

7:44 Speaker 1: UFOs is of course, the implications are obvious. And one

7:50 Speaker 1: of the things that has led me into is studying

7:53 Speaker 1: aerial photographs of an ancient city from three thousand years

7:58 Speaker 1: old in Iraq Or is an extraordinary decayed city in

8:06 Speaker 1: the mountains in Peru that predates Machu Pichu. And you

8:10 Speaker 1: look at these aerial photographs, and then you look at

8:14 Speaker 1: certain photographs of Moon and Mars and it seems to

8:18 Speaker 1: be the exact same configuration, the same deterioration, the same organization.

8:25 Speaker 1: When I show these things, I have to say, I'm

8:27 Speaker 1: not a geologist. I don't know. You know how rock

8:33 Speaker 1: wears down over millions of years? Can it mimic these

8:36 Speaker 1: organized structures? We're certainly not talking about a surface made

8:41 Speaker 1: of crystals that grows at right angles and that kind

8:43 Speaker 1: of thing. But my feeling is the most logical, the

8:52 Speaker 1: most boring, the most mundane explanation for a mystery is

8:59 Speaker 1: often what it is. But it's not very sexy, it's

9:02 Speaker 1: not very exotic, and it's it's a process that a

9:09 Speaker 1: lot of folks would rather not go through. My feeling

9:13 Speaker 1: is kind of inspired when I was twelve years old

9:15 Speaker 1: by Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes deductive reasoning. You begin with

9:20 Speaker 1: the most mundane explanation, you explore it fully. If it

9:24 Speaker 1: doesn't pan out, you take one step up to the

9:27 Speaker 1: second most boring explanation, and you work your way through.

9:31 Speaker 1: If you go through logically all of these possibilities and

9:35 Speaker 1: you don't have an answer, that's when things get exciting,

9:38 Speaker 1: and when you can proceed with relative confidence that you're

9:42 Speaker 1: really in unexplored territory, as opposed to just, oh my gosh,

9:47 Speaker 1: you know, this might just be and I've got to

9:49 Speaker 1: examine it like that. Gosh, isn't it exciting being me

9:52 Speaker 1: doing what I do?

9:55 Speaker 2: I oftentimes I've wondered, are these crowds, are these UFOs?

10:04 Speaker 2: Are they the remnants of either a loss civilization, or

10:09 Speaker 2: are they time travelers from the future?

10:12 Speaker 3: And honestly, I don't think at this point it matters.

10:17 Speaker 2: First is getting the admission and the admission that it's

10:21 Speaker 2: real and that they are real, and if that comes

10:24 Speaker 2: with you know, also if on the day of disclosure,

10:27 Speaker 2: you know, we're not alone. And by the way, on

10:29 Speaker 2: the backside of the moon, there's a city, and there's

10:32 Speaker 2: also on Mars, and we just you know, we had

10:34 Speaker 2: to do it for national security. Okay, you know what,

10:38 Speaker 2: Let's move forward and let's let's start building on that.

10:41 Speaker 3: What do you think do you think the world is

10:43 Speaker 3: ready for this?

10:45 Speaker 1: That is a great question, and I've debated it formally

10:48 Speaker 1: with colleagues for some time. Many of us who have

10:52 Speaker 1: been in the field for years, you know, we're surrounded

10:55 Speaker 1: by like minded people who have their own point of feeling.

11:01 Speaker 1: I am ready personally for this abstract concept of disclosure,

11:05 Speaker 1: which I think is more process, although who knows, someday

11:10 Speaker 1: there may be that official announcement by leaders around the world.

11:16 Speaker 1: It's happening right now, it's happening every day, and it's

11:20 Speaker 1: progressing three seven nine people at a time, one country,

11:23 Speaker 1: one state, the other. I have the same curiosity you

11:28 Speaker 1: do in terms of if, and I'll paraphrase the late

11:33 Speaker 1: great Stanton Friedman here, the question is not, are these

11:38 Speaker 1: things that we're talking about, these anomalous formations seemingly that

11:46 Speaker 1: look unnatural and certain objects that our rovers are literally

11:53 Speaker 1: coming right up through and seeing on Mars is Are

12:01 Speaker 1: these things fifty years old or fifty million years old?

12:05 Speaker 3: Right?

12:06 Speaker 1: It's very I'm not equipped to know how one would

12:09 Speaker 1: date them unless there are series of photos going back

12:13 Speaker 1: fifty years where there have been passes over, say, the

12:16 Speaker 1: same part of the moon, and if one studied them together,

12:20 Speaker 1: one might see, oh, they added a wing onto this

12:23 Speaker 1: house or something the equivalent. But I'm not aware of

12:27 Speaker 1: anybody who has access to that level of materials.

12:30 Speaker 2: I don't know if you saw this, but there was

12:33 Speaker 2: a structure on Mars that it looked you know how

12:42 Speaker 2: right angles don't occur in nature, most you know is

12:44 Speaker 2: a general rule of them. Right angles don't occur in naturally.

12:49 Speaker 2: But there was this perfect square on Mars. And after

12:55 Speaker 2: Joe Rogan started talking about it and put light shed

12:58 Speaker 2: light on it, then when people started looking at it again,

13:01 Speaker 2: it seemed someone had eroded it to make it look

13:07 Speaker 2: less interesting.

13:08 Speaker 3: So again, who who do you think?

13:11 Speaker 2: Because NASA is obviously reporting to somebody, NASA is being

13:16 Speaker 2: overseen by, whether it's an intelligence agency, the cabal, whatever

13:20 Speaker 2: you want to call it.

13:22 Speaker 3: Again, why I.

13:26 Speaker 2: Cannot understand unless the secret was so paradigm shifting that

13:33 Speaker 2: maybe the the occupants of these UFOs are maybe they

13:36 Speaker 2: had some hand in creating us. And you know they

13:39 Speaker 2: were from Mars and a cataclysm happened. There's evidence of

13:42 Speaker 2: a huge scar on Mars. So what if our life

13:46 Speaker 2: started there and had to come here but they didn't

13:49 Speaker 2: want us to know?

13:52 Speaker 3: Have you? Do you think about these things?

13:53 Speaker 1: In this area of study? One of the conundrums is

13:59 Speaker 1: anyone you, myself, you, somebody off the street, or somebody

14:06 Speaker 1: with fifty years experience can say it's my proposition that

14:11 Speaker 1: X is Y and that this happened and x number

14:14 Speaker 1: of years ago and this amount of light years and

14:18 Speaker 1: under this proved me wrong. Also, uphology is not like

14:27 Speaker 1: legal or medical practice, where if you act in appropriately,

14:32 Speaker 1: the bar association or the AMA will suspend your license.

14:35 Speaker 1: Right you know, oh gee, you weren't accurate about your predicted.

14:45 Speaker 2: I think people in this community, the UFO world, they're

14:49 Speaker 2: very They don't want to be wrong because they think

14:53 Speaker 2: that will damage everything else that they've said. So they

14:57 Speaker 2: it's almost like they avoid being wrong, like it's the plague.

15:00 Speaker 3: What we're dealing with here is.

15:01 Speaker 2: One of the most complex. The U and UFO and

15:05 Speaker 2: UAP stands for we don't know right. So I think

15:08 Speaker 2: we need to be humble with with being able to

15:11 Speaker 2: be wrong and move on when the data suggests it.

15:14 Speaker 1: I couldn't agree with you more and for me personally,

15:20 Speaker 1: if I do make an error, I make a point

15:24 Speaker 1: as much as the point I was trying to make

15:27 Speaker 1: of having made the error in public, it's kind of

15:32 Speaker 1: poignant that I've been acknowledged for that. I think over

15:37 Speaker 1: acknowledged when one would think or hope that most people

15:43 Speaker 1: do admit to errors, but especially in our culture, and

15:47 Speaker 1: never more than now. Real men don't apologize, you know,

15:51 Speaker 1: making mistakes and admitting it's for sissies, and people forget.

15:55 Speaker 1: I'm a tough guy. I'll get through this somehow. People

15:58 Speaker 1: forget that I through the pooch. But you asked it

16:02 Speaker 1: a question. As far as origins, it may be any

16:06 Speaker 1: and all. I think the most romantic notion for me

16:10 Speaker 1: is time travelers from our future. It's a shape of

16:13 Speaker 1: science fiction. It's such an exciting, complex possibility. I discount

16:20 Speaker 1: it almost completely, and of course I can be completely wrong.

16:24 Speaker 1: It's ironic that over the decades the extra terrestrial hypothesis

16:29 Speaker 1: has become like the most conservative one. Interdimensionals a presence

16:34 Speaker 1: that's always been with us. I have very little doubt

16:38 Speaker 1: that there are locations below bodies of water and deep

16:43 Speaker 1: within the Earth that are basis, for lack of a

16:46 Speaker 1: better term, we're also probably dealing with a myriad of

16:51 Speaker 1: other intelligences like our human race. It's a pretty big

16:56 Speaker 1: tent of types and tendencies, many of If we're correct

17:03 Speaker 1: in our basic assumption that we are being sharing our

17:06 Speaker 1: space visiting visited by other intelligences, they may again be

17:11 Speaker 1: as varied as we are in terms of temperament and goals.

17:16 Speaker 1: Some of them may be you know, welcome the space brothers,

17:21 Speaker 1: kind of we want to bring you into what we'll

17:24 Speaker 1: call the Federation, or absolute pathological monsters who understandably feel

17:32 Speaker 1: that as the dominant species on this little planet, which

17:36 Speaker 1: may be more significant and important to numbers of them

17:40 Speaker 1: than we imagine. They may have a pre existing relationship

17:44 Speaker 1: with this little body of spec shooting through cosmos of

17:48 Speaker 1: thirty thousand miles an hour, predating ours. I sometimes think,

17:53 Speaker 1: perhaps in the spirit that we routinely now do gene

17:57 Speaker 1: splicing and other advanced technique crisper, that perhaps were somebody's

18:04 Speaker 1: master's project gone horribly long, and they've come back to

18:07 Speaker 1: correct it and get a better grade. Stanton Friedman used

18:10 Speaker 1: to joke that Earth is where they sent people from

18:14 Speaker 1: other planets. The regions go to prison. Yea, you stay

18:17 Speaker 1: there for nineteen years and you realize how good you

18:19 Speaker 1: had it here. And I'm only half joking all of

18:24 Speaker 1: this stuff. You know, we have to be able to

18:26 Speaker 1: joke about because it is so deadly serious. But to

18:29 Speaker 1: keep it affused, to keep the pot stirred, to keep

18:33 Speaker 1: us in the research community, barking and arguing and debating

18:38 Speaker 1: each other while the hands that move the puppet strings

18:43 Speaker 1: continue to do it just like conventional politics.

18:46 Speaker 2: And I want to round out, you know, because we

18:50 Speaker 2: have limited time, and I would love to have you

18:53 Speaker 2: on the actual podcast one day so.

18:55 Speaker 3: We could do a long form you know, I'll fly

18:57 Speaker 3: you into Boston.

18:59 Speaker 2: However, one of the cases that really I connected with

19:03 Speaker 2: when I was younger was.

19:05 Speaker 3: The Rendalssom case.

19:06 Speaker 2: You've extensively worked in looking into what happened there?

19:13 Speaker 3: Would you say that that.

19:16 Speaker 2: In your if you could give me the elevator version

19:20 Speaker 2: of the Renderssom Force case, could what.

19:23 Speaker 3: Would you say about it? What would you say occurred

19:25 Speaker 3: that night?

19:26 Speaker 1: Well, those nights, it was a series of two or

19:29 Speaker 1: three nights. Yes, And we're talking about a period of

19:32 Speaker 1: time between Christmas and New Year's nineteen eighty, very close

19:37 Speaker 1: proximity to a major American air base in Suffolk and

19:41 Speaker 1: a sister base active with the RAF at the time. Yeah.

19:46 Speaker 1: I spent nine years of my life to the exclusion

19:49 Speaker 1: of literally everything else, studying, learning, interviewing, traveling back to

19:55 Speaker 1: the UK, ultimately publishing, ultimately having a book published with

20:02 Speaker 1: my co author, who had alleged that he was a

20:04 Speaker 1: military witness to this. The book To Digress for a

20:09 Speaker 1: Moment did no better and no worse than most of

20:11 Speaker 1: your books to hear, but in part because it really

20:16 Speaker 1: had become the most important, significant, published, talked about case

20:24 Speaker 1: in the history of the United Kingdom. And by chance

20:27 Speaker 1: it was published after ten years in the UK in

20:33 Speaker 1: June of nineteen ninety seven, the fiftieth anniversary of everything.

20:38 Speaker 1: It became a smash top ten bestseller. Wow, and it

20:42 Speaker 1: brought my co author and I on a one month

20:45 Speaker 1: fourteen city speaking tour. And I think I've been back

20:49 Speaker 1: about twenty times since. But the case is real. There

20:56 Speaker 1: are very good first hand witnesses, military and civilian. There's

21:04 Speaker 1: a cadre of writers and researchers that have delved into

21:08 Speaker 1: this over the decades. And I continued on for another

21:11 Speaker 1: fifteen years or so, at which point my former co

21:15 Speaker 1: author's account began to fall apart and then disintegrated. He

21:21 Speaker 1: was in the Air Force, he was on location, he

21:23 Speaker 1: was deployed in the forest that night. But the story

21:27 Speaker 1: was confabulated, borrowed, and he was a brilliant narcissist sociopath And.

21:37 Speaker 3: Unfortunately they come with the territory.

21:39 Speaker 1: Well, I joke with people sometimes that if I've ever

21:42 Speaker 1: been fooled to that degree by anyone else in my life,

21:46 Speaker 1: I have no idea, because they were that good at it.

21:49 Speaker 1: And for me professionally, it was a terrible hit, but

21:54 Speaker 1: I dealt with it by telling the truth about what

21:58 Speaker 1: had happened and lost a paramount of credibility for a

22:03 Speaker 1: while before I gained it back again the case itself.

22:08 Speaker 1: At this point, after such an immersion in one particular

22:16 Speaker 1: series of events, I am still not sure whether it

22:20 Speaker 1: was a genuine in contact event with extraterrestrials interdimensionals, whether

22:29 Speaker 1: or not there was an aspect of it that was

22:31 Speaker 1: a psio that men involved were processed to believe, to think,

22:42 Speaker 1: to feel that X had happened, or that it had happened,

22:47 Speaker 1: and that Her Majesty's government went great lengths for many

22:52 Speaker 1: years saying that whatever it was, and this is a

22:55 Speaker 1: direct quote, it was of no defense significance, which is

23:00 Speaker 1: incredibly arrogant. But you don't know what you're talking about.

23:02 Speaker 2: And when Bentwaters, I mean that's a stronghold, or you

23:10 Speaker 2: know that that area and one of the large, like

23:13 Speaker 2: you said, one of the largest bases, and you know

23:16 Speaker 2: is rumored that there was nuclear nuclear with more than rumors.

23:20 Speaker 1: Yeah, what had happened was by virtual or treaty with

23:24 Speaker 1: the UK at the time, we were not supposed to

23:27 Speaker 1: have any nuclear ordinance in the UK. Not only did

23:31 Speaker 1: we have it, it was being held in the weapons

23:34 Speaker 1: storage area at Oria Bentwaters, which is filled with nuclear bunkers.

23:39 Speaker 1: It's an area that I first looked at through a

23:42 Speaker 1: fence from several hundred yards away in nineteen eighty eight,

23:46 Speaker 1: and that many years later, after the base was decommissioned,

23:50 Speaker 1: I had an opportunity to get into and go into

23:53 Speaker 1: and it was quite an unforgettable day for me. We

23:56 Speaker 1: have verification now from officials or lack of denial, that

24:01 Speaker 1: we had a lot of nuclear ordinance there at that pace.

24:06 Speaker 2: So whatever John Burrows and Peniston, whatever they see, whether

24:12 Speaker 2: you know, whether it's it's again, I get the who

24:15 Speaker 2: I think will come. So, whether they're from the future,

24:18 Speaker 2: from the past, they're the grays, the whatever, it doesn't

24:22 Speaker 2: whatever happened to John Burrows and Peniston, it was real

24:27 Speaker 2: enough to them where there were actual effects and then

24:32 Speaker 2: the the The account is very similar with Okay, there's

24:39 Speaker 2: physiological effects in relation to nuclear technology, so it checks

24:46 Speaker 2: all the boxes in its military. So it's you know,

24:49 Speaker 2: you we tend to give military and veterans like you know.

24:53 Speaker 1: A bit of a law enforcement witness.

24:57 Speaker 2: Right, They're they're they're a little bit more credible than

24:59 Speaker 2: just your average Joe on the street, just because the

25:01 Speaker 2: government again does train these people to be observant.

25:04 Speaker 1: Or their local police departments.

25:06 Speaker 3: Right, yes, exactly.

25:08 Speaker 2: So again, what do you think the connection is there?

25:13 Speaker 2: Because if if if I was a betting man and

25:19 Speaker 2: there was an apocalyptic scenario, it would happen at our

25:23 Speaker 2: nuclear sites.

25:25 Speaker 3: Right, And isn't it odd that these UFOs, what if they.

25:28 Speaker 2: Are from the future coming back to stop or at

25:33 Speaker 2: least observe something that went wrong at one of these sites,

25:37 Speaker 2: they seem to be visiting.

25:38 Speaker 3: All of them.

25:39 Speaker 1: Well, again, anything is possible, but I tend to downplay

25:45 Speaker 1: that idea. Let's just sub shoot regular alien life forms

25:53 Speaker 1: as opposed to time travelers who again have some kind

25:58 Speaker 1: of pre existing relationship with this mass. That's interest, We

26:05 Speaker 1: the dominant species, are the biggest threat to that we

26:10 Speaker 1: are our own worst enemy, and that if we continue

26:13 Speaker 1: to go as we are, And now there seems to

26:15 Speaker 1: be a national mandate to full speed ahead and crash

26:20 Speaker 1: course to non renewables and more nuclear energy. I think, well,

26:30 Speaker 1: I can tell you for a fact that for many

26:32 Speaker 1: years I believed that John Burrows and Jim Penison that

26:39 Speaker 1: they had been misled, that they had been affused, because

26:44 Speaker 1: that's what my co author felt, and I had come

26:48 Speaker 1: to have cause to believe him. And when his case

26:52 Speaker 1: really fell apart as an individual, it was then that

26:57 Speaker 1: I realized that John and Jim, to the best of

27:04 Speaker 1: their knowledge, we're not only telling the truth, but we're

27:08 Speaker 1: very courageous in doing so. And then there's Deputy based

27:11 Speaker 1: Commander Charles Eye halt right his life I helped to

27:15 Speaker 1: make a little less pleasant for about twenty years. And

27:19 Speaker 1: when this fell apart, I contacted him to apologize and

27:24 Speaker 1: his response was, essentially, either you and Larry conspired to

27:32 Speaker 1: create this hoax. And when it started to fall apart,

27:36 Speaker 1: you know, like a rat leaving a sinking ship, you

27:38 Speaker 1: deserted your buddy or nobody in upology has been played.

27:44 Speaker 1: You were so naive, you were so fooled that it's

27:48 Speaker 1: like record breaking. And I said, let me assure you.

27:49 Speaker 1: It was the second two months ago. I sat down

27:54 Speaker 1: with Charles Halt for the first time in thirty years.

27:57 Speaker 2: Wow.

27:58 Speaker 1: And we we were in New Jersey at a small

28:02 Speaker 1: UFO conference, but we talked it out and his wife

28:08 Speaker 1: had died about six weeks before. Charles friends call him Chuck,

28:13 Speaker 1: now I do too. He was a gentleman. I always

28:17 Speaker 1: thought he was. He was heroic in his own way.

28:20 Speaker 1: Deputy based commanders are essentially commanders for day to day operation.

28:24 Speaker 1: This fell to him, the heat fell to him, the

28:27 Speaker 1: bad publicity fell to him. He was doing his best

28:31 Speaker 1: to manage an emergency situation at a major American air

28:35 Speaker 1: base and I was a bit of a pest thinking

28:38 Speaker 1: I was muckraking journalist. And Charles was again very gracious

28:46 Speaker 1: in the way that he accepted my apology. Again, it's

28:50 Speaker 1: a very important case. I have removed myself from it.

28:55 Speaker 1: Plenty of other places for me to work and look.

28:58 Speaker 1: And the impact for me was I didn't I was

29:01 Speaker 1: invited to speak at a conference in England for five

29:05 Speaker 1: years and tell people realize what had happened, that I

29:08 Speaker 1: had done my best to turn things around. And I've

29:11 Speaker 1: been back a couple of times in the last few years.

29:13 Speaker 3: Well, that recording of Charles I mean, that's.

29:18 Speaker 1: The real deal. It comes from He's coming tortoise.

29:31 Speaker 2: Now.

29:32 Speaker 4: I don't want.

29:39 Speaker 3: It.

29:39 Speaker 2: Gives me the chills listening to it because it's you

29:43 Speaker 2: don't military men again, they conduct themselves a certain way.

29:46 Speaker 1: Hear that. Not only that you not only hear the

29:49 Speaker 1: stress in the voices, but it's so well documented in

29:53 Speaker 1: terms of we know every man that he was out

29:55 Speaker 1: there with. Their voices are recognizable, we know who they are.

30:00 Speaker 1: For the record, if you read left it es Gate,

30:03 Speaker 1: the first hand account of the Rendelssohn forest story. The

30:08 Speaker 1: thing that was the most shattering for me in all

30:11 Speaker 1: my research was on our very first research trip there,

30:14 Speaker 1: which I thought would be our only one. I thought

30:16 Speaker 1: it would be done in a year or two, not

30:20 Speaker 1: six miles from the site of the events that Larry

30:23 Speaker 1: alleges that he was involved in. On our very first

30:27 Speaker 1: night of our very first visit to the locale, we

30:31 Speaker 1: had a multiple UFO incident siding that went on for

30:35 Speaker 1: an hour and a half. At the time, I best

30:41 Speaker 1: technology was micro cassette recorders, and wherever I went I

30:45 Speaker 1: had two of them, new batteries tapes ready to go.

30:49 Speaker 1: I recorded this our reactions for an hour and a half.

30:53 Speaker 1: I spent several months checking transcribing and then checking this

30:58 Speaker 1: transcription because because the wind was ripping across the top

31:02 Speaker 1: of the mic and there's a lot of distortion, and

31:04 Speaker 1: I knew once we published, you know, I'm the one

31:06 Speaker 1: that's doing the transcription, and it was so shattering to me.

31:12 Speaker 1: I mean, we had everything from star sized UFO zigzagging

31:16 Speaker 1: to fully articulated discs to a disc dropping down into

31:20 Speaker 1: the rentals from Farce and lighting it up like one

31:22 Speaker 1: hundred kleag lights. I went into shock, but hyper observant shock,

31:27 Speaker 1: and everything was recorded. And I realized at that point,

31:31 Speaker 1: after seven months of working with my co author and

31:34 Speaker 1: having a number of times where there were problems, but

31:38 Speaker 1: I was able to chalk it off to PTSD and

31:42 Speaker 1: possibly mucked around with the military or by them, as

31:46 Speaker 1: opposed to being a pathological liar and an alcoholic and

31:51 Speaker 1: looking to be famous for something. You know, I can

31:54 Speaker 1: see that now, But at that point, we're having this

31:57 Speaker 1: happen in front of us, right and I realize, you

32:00 Speaker 1: know what, You've either got to take this guy's word

32:02 Speaker 1: for it or not, and if you do, you'll understand

32:07 Speaker 1: you didn't have PTSD. But you read a few papers

32:10 Speaker 1: on it. It fits your idea of it. You know,

32:14 Speaker 1: all of a sudden you're an authority on it. And

32:17 Speaker 1: it was so convincing to me that it was, you know,

32:20 Speaker 1: another fifteen years that it caught up. But again the

32:23 Speaker 1: fact is what happened there was of defense significance. It

32:28 Speaker 1: was a tremendous human significance. And again there are good

32:33 Speaker 1: people working on it now. You should talk to Nick

32:36 Speaker 1: Pope about it also because he's in that unique position

32:40 Speaker 1: of having gone from an official in the Ministry Defense

32:44 Speaker 1: to having co written a book on the events with

32:49 Speaker 1: Jim and John, and I realize now it's a much

32:54 Speaker 1: more valuable and important way than it was when I

32:58 Speaker 1: wrote a book taking a d and Nick being Nick

33:04 Speaker 1: is very gracious and accepting my apology when things came

33:07 Speaker 1: to shove.

33:08 Speaker 2: Well, I I again, I want to say I've told

33:11 Speaker 2: you this off air, But I think guys like me

33:16 Speaker 2: and the newer people into this that are entering the

33:20 Speaker 2: field in different you know ways and media platforms, investigative aspects,

33:26 Speaker 2: citizen journalism, we have very big shoes to fill with

33:31 Speaker 2: with how you guys have taken the ball to the

33:34 Speaker 2: twenty yard line. And now we get to across the

33:37 Speaker 2: finish line, and you know, I think you got again.

33:40 Speaker 3: Like I said, we have.

33:41 Speaker 2: We're standing on the shoulders of giants, like guys like

33:43 Speaker 2: Stan Friedman, like yourself.

33:44 Speaker 3: Like Steve Bassett, Bob Salis, you know, Bob Jacobs.

33:49 Speaker 2: All these people have worked tirelessly for the better part

33:53 Speaker 2: of their lives trying to get disclosure.

33:57 Speaker 3: And like I.

33:58 Speaker 2: Truly, I don't know if it will from a president

34:00 Speaker 2: standing at a podium, but it might come from citizen journalists,

34:05 Speaker 2: citizen scientists working together and putting the pressure.

34:09 Speaker 3: Because we the people, we own this land. The government

34:13 Speaker 3: just works for us.

34:14 Speaker 1: You've got it. So but many of us have drank

34:18 Speaker 1: that kool aid, idealize and revere our so called leaders. Yes,

34:27 Speaker 1: and many of them have forgotten that they work for us.

34:31 Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think they.

34:34 Speaker 2: I don't think George Washington had career bureaucrats in mind

34:37 Speaker 2: when they were creating this nation. So that was never

34:41 Speaker 2: supposed to be a thing. You're supposed to do your

34:43 Speaker 2: time in government and then go back to the sector

34:45 Speaker 2: that you were in before and enjoy yourself. Somewhere along

34:49 Speaker 2: the line, people were like Oh, this is a cushy job,

34:52 Speaker 2: and I get a pension. So that's where the problem lies.

34:55 Speaker 1: You're absolutely right.

34:56 Speaker 3: That's where the problem was meant to be a career.

34:59 Speaker 1: It was meant to the mark of service and of

35:03 Speaker 1: a limited duration.

35:04 Speaker 3: Yes, so I truly.

35:06 Speaker 2: And you know, Congressman Burchett is a good friend of mine,

35:08 Speaker 2: and he supports term limits. And he's a guy who

35:12 Speaker 2: has enough to benefit from if he could just keep

35:14 Speaker 2: his position for the rest of his life. Right, So

35:17 Speaker 2: I like that, And again I want to I'd love

35:19 Speaker 2: to have young, longer form podcasts. You are such a

35:22 Speaker 2: wealth and knowledge and the rendless forest. I just want

35:25 Speaker 2: to ask you this, the Rundoers Forest. It sounds like

35:29 Speaker 2: you something happened that night, beyond a reasonable.

35:32 Speaker 1: Doubt in trying to put it together after the fact.

35:38 Speaker 1: When I met Larry in eighty seven, although we met

35:42 Speaker 1: briefly in eighty four, shortly after he'd come forward this

35:46 Speaker 1: during the so called Westchester triangle overflights. Originally it came

35:51 Speaker 1: forward under a pseudonym and then used his own name.

35:55 Speaker 1: I think what may have happened is that there was

35:59 Speaker 1: an event on the third night. Larry maintained that there

36:02 Speaker 1: were over forty men involved surrounding a craft, not a

36:06 Speaker 1: single one of whom has come forward to verify it,

36:10 Speaker 1: except in a very a partial way, and then a

36:14 Speaker 1: withdrawal and then a complete silence. An another security police

36:19 Speaker 1: officer named Adrian Bestinza, who was Larry's roommate and who

36:23 Speaker 1: for personal reasons, made it very clear to him family

36:28 Speaker 1: exposure and the like, that he was never going to

36:30 Speaker 1: talk about what happened, and that if Larry wanted to

36:34 Speaker 1: take his story and put it forward as his own,

36:38 Speaker 1: it was okay with Adrian. I don't know if that's happened,

36:41 Speaker 1: but I think it may have. So he had the

36:44 Speaker 1: story wild as it was, and a personal belief that

36:50 Speaker 1: it had happened. Also, although he appropriately made a great

36:56 Speaker 1: many enemies with his lies and deceptions and threats to people,

37:02 Speaker 1: he may well have had contact experiences as a boy.

37:07 Speaker 1: Both Bud Hopkins and I extensively interviewed Larry's mother, a

37:10 Speaker 1: lovely woman, very grounded Boston family who had very very

37:18 Speaker 1: insistent memories of being on board a craft and memories

37:23 Speaker 1: of an event or two that she had shared with

37:26 Speaker 1: Larry when he was younger. So that added complexity. To

37:30 Speaker 1: the case on somebody that many people want to demonize

37:34 Speaker 1: and don't want to believe there's a partial truth to it. Unfortunately,

37:38 Speaker 1: if one reads our book now, there are hundreds of

37:42 Speaker 1: parts that I'll always be proud of, But even within

37:45 Speaker 1: a paragraph or sentence by him, there may be an

37:49 Speaker 1: exaggeration of confabulation or complete life, and unless I was

37:54 Speaker 1: there to verify it, I can't attest to it. So

37:57 Speaker 1: it's a non fiction book filled with a fair amount

38:01 Speaker 1: of fiction.

38:02 Speaker 2: Sometimes, like I said, and this is full circle here,

38:05 Speaker 2: you're humble when you were wrong, and you take responsibility,

38:09 Speaker 2: and it's time we move past right and we do the.

38:12 Speaker 3: Next right thing, and the next right thing and the

38:14 Speaker 3: next right thing.

38:15 Speaker 2: And I don't know if you believe in date, fate

38:19 Speaker 2: or destiny, but every time I've done, every time I

38:23 Speaker 2: just do the next right thing, I end up in

38:25 Speaker 2: the right spot or where I'm supposed to be.

38:27 Speaker 3: And that's led me right here to you right now.

38:30 Speaker 3: And I really want to say thank you for doing this.

38:32 Speaker 1: It's a terrific interview. Thank you, thank you, sir.

38:34 Speaker 3: So again, I'd love to dive deep into these topics.

38:38 Speaker 2: We only have limited time here, but I think we could. Definitely,

38:42 Speaker 2: I would love to sit down with you.

38:44 Speaker 1: Absolutely, I'll be glad to do a show with you.

38:46 Speaker 1: And when you have time, just go to YouTube type

38:50 Speaker 1: and meanwhile here on Earth and you will get several

38:53 Speaker 1: hundred shows that will pop up.

38:55 Speaker 2: Yeah, so we'll put the link in the description for

38:57 Speaker 2: this and I'll put a little QR code that will

39:01 Speaker 2: bring you right.

39:01 Speaker 3: To that website.

39:03 Speaker 1: All right, yeah, and let's say in touch and again,

39:06 Speaker 1: I'm you know you start to chat with me yesterday.

39:10 Speaker 1: Every time you do a conference, especially like this size,

39:13 Speaker 1: and somebody comes up high, I'm you know, with the media,

39:16 Speaker 1: it's like okay, maybe yes, maybe no, And I don't

39:18 Speaker 1: know what you call the media.

39:21 Speaker 2: But so thank you guys for joining us today at

39:23 Speaker 2: Contact in the Desert.

39:25 Speaker 3: I'm here with Peter Robbins.

39:26 Speaker 2: He's gonna have to head back to his booth, but

39:30 Speaker 2: we're gonna get the next person in here and continue

39:32 Speaker 2: our coverage of Contact in the Desert twenty twenty five

39:36 Speaker 2: Event Horizon.

39:37 Speaker 3: Thank you guys. Make sure I did that. Like, share

39:39 Speaker 3: and subscribe.

39:40 Speaker 2: If you're listening, follow on your favorite podcast platform and

39:43 Speaker 2: leave us a review. It's free, takes two seconds and

39:46 Speaker 2: it really helps.

39:47 Speaker 3: At that Pesti algorithm. We'll see you next time.

40:00 Speaker 4: An Internet, an Internet as independent, independent Internet, and sent it.

40:31 Speaker 1: And sent

40:36 Speaker 4: And inte