ROBERT BIGELOW On JRE: The Search for Life Beyond Earth, & After Death SPECIAL PRESENTATION

0:02 Speaker 1: Joe Rogan Podcast. Check it out.

0:04 Speaker 2: But Joe Rogan Experience Train by Day, Joe Rogan Podcast,

0:08 Speaker 2: by Night, All Day one. Mister Bigwill, Hello, good morning,

0:15 Speaker 2: Pleasure for noon.

0:16 Speaker 1: Yeah, pleasure to meet you, Pleasure to get to talk

0:18 Speaker 1: to you. And I really appreciate you coming on. Here's

0:21 Speaker 1: a lot to me. You and I have some shared interests,

0:24 Speaker 1: clearly in the world of UFOs, but I want to talk.

0:29 Speaker 1: Most people know of you because of Bigelow Aerospace. They

0:33 Speaker 1: know that you're this billionaire investor and you're a very

0:37 Speaker 1: successful businessman, but you have a deep fascination with UFOs.

0:44 Speaker 2: Yeah, sure do.

0:45 Speaker 1: How did this all get started?

0:50 Speaker 2: Back when I was about three years old, which would

0:54 Speaker 2: be about nineteen forty seven, and actually a May of

0:57 Speaker 2: that year, my grandparents had a very close encounter. It

1:02 Speaker 2: was dramatic, and they were taking an afternoon evening drive

1:08 Speaker 2: in the late afternoon up into the mountains and coming

1:11 Speaker 2: on back down to Las Vegas, and they saw what

1:16 Speaker 2: appeared to be at first an airplane on fire, and

1:21 Speaker 2: the object became closer and closer to them, and they

1:24 Speaker 2: pulled off to the side of the road and at

1:27 Speaker 2: one point then it filled up the windshield and they

1:29 Speaker 2: thought they were going to die, and the last second

1:33 Speaker 2: it shot off and disappeared. And I learned of this

1:41 Speaker 2: story when I was probably ten years old, and because

1:46 Speaker 2: I was three at the time and my mother had

1:50 Speaker 2: told me this story. So I approached my grandfather and

1:53 Speaker 2: he wouldn't talk about it. Now after all these years,

1:56 Speaker 2: like seven years have gone by, because I was intrigued

1:59 Speaker 2: with it, and uh, So I went to my grandmother

2:02 Speaker 2: and she only would say a few words, but she

2:05 Speaker 2: wouldn't talk. So I got the story from my mom

2:09 Speaker 2: and and they had my grandfather had to sit on

2:14 Speaker 2: the side of the road there in the car for

2:15 Speaker 2: a while to recompose himself and because they thought they

2:22 Speaker 2: were they were going to die and uh, and then

2:25 Speaker 2: he finally was able to drive on back to Las Vegas.

2:28 Speaker 2: So that was the beginning for me.

2:30 Speaker 1: Did you ever describe what you said? It looked like

2:32 Speaker 1: a plane on fire, but like, what was the shape

2:35 Speaker 1: of it as it got closer.

2:36 Speaker 2: I don't recall any kind of shape that was that

2:39 Speaker 2: was uh, this gymother described, I don't recall that.

2:43 Speaker 1: But they just knew it wasn't a plane. They knew

2:46 Speaker 1: it was that's right. That's right.

2:47 Speaker 2: So in the family, you know, in the family, the

2:51 Speaker 2: family had an event, and I lived right next door

2:54 Speaker 2: to my grandparents, and the family had an event that

2:58 Speaker 2: kind of started things that date. For me, other personal

3:02 Speaker 2: things came later, but for the family, that was a

3:05 Speaker 2: big deal.

3:06 Speaker 1: So this was you said forty seven, and forty seven

3:09 Speaker 1: was the time of the Roswell crash. Forty seven was

3:12 Speaker 1: a time there was a lot of UFO activity being

3:15 Speaker 1: observed worldwide. And the speculation is that this had to

3:19 Speaker 1: do with the nuclear bombs that were dropped on Hiroshima

3:23 Speaker 1: and Nagasaki and all the tests that the United States

3:25 Speaker 1: had done and Russia had done, and that there was

3:28 Speaker 1: a lot of interest in obviously in that well, actually

3:33 Speaker 1: Russia hadn't dropped any bombs by that time, right, right,

3:36 Speaker 1: It was after that, but that there was interest in

3:39 Speaker 1: our species by extraterrestrials because they let, oh, these crazy

3:43 Speaker 1: assholes are detonating nukes, like, let's let's go take a

3:46 Speaker 1: look at them.

3:47 Speaker 2: Right. Well, you had so called foo fighters during the war,

3:52 Speaker 2: these lights that were following bombers, and the tail gunners

3:56 Speaker 2: were the ones that saw them most often, of course,

3:59 Speaker 2: and uh, and then that happened through through the war

4:03 Speaker 2: and then and then of course Roswell. But before that

4:07 Speaker 2: was Kent Ken Arnold right in about June juneish, and

4:11 Speaker 2: then in July eighth was Roswell.

4:15 Speaker 1: And there's a direct uptick though from the Trinity experiments, right.

4:20 Speaker 2: I think I I I gather my feeling simply is

4:24 Speaker 2: that without any kind of other other evidence, are proof

4:28 Speaker 2: that that was a huge stimulus.

4:32 Speaker 1: Yeah, so this was around that time. Then you had

4:35 Speaker 1: heard about this as a part of you know, family discussions, right,

4:39 Speaker 1: and so that sort of ignited the fire initially.

4:43 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I started asking my friends, as I say,

4:46 Speaker 2: when I was about ten, uh, you know, have you

4:49 Speaker 2: any any reports in your family of anything? And and

4:52 Speaker 2: by golly, a couple of my close friends told me

4:55 Speaker 2: things that they had never told me before. Uh. So

4:59 Speaker 2: you know, it wasn't that wasn't necessarily an exclusive event,

5:05 Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying. Other people in Las Vegas had

5:10 Speaker 2: seen things at close proximity as well.

5:13 Speaker 1: Now, your relationship to this is obviously something that you've

5:17 Speaker 1: carried for so long. It's been an obsession of yours

5:21 Speaker 1: for so long. Yeah, it started with this, But what

5:25 Speaker 1: personal experiences if any of you had.

5:28 Speaker 2: Well, when I was probably seven or so, seven or eight,

5:35 Speaker 2: I used to have what I chalked up all my

5:38 Speaker 2: life to just being silly dreams. And I had maybe

5:41 Speaker 2: five or six of these dreams, and I could never

5:44 Speaker 2: make sense of them. And I would be laying in

5:49 Speaker 2: bed on my side, and a typical dream always the same.

5:54 Speaker 2: There would be three short somebody something's in kind of

6:00 Speaker 2: monk robe, and so I couldn't see me, face, couldn't

6:03 Speaker 2: see me, appendages, and then these three whatevers were standing

6:08 Speaker 2: there and they were not too far from my eye

6:11 Speaker 2: level as far as the heights and so forth, so

6:13 Speaker 2: the child size, yeah, yeah, And so there was nothing

6:18 Speaker 2: in the I was an avid comic book reader, but

6:21 Speaker 2: there was nothing in the in the whole genre of

6:23 Speaker 2: comic books that related to that or movies. And we

6:27 Speaker 2: didn't have television in Las Vegas till fifty three or

6:29 Speaker 2: fifty four, and even after that it was terrible broadcasting,

6:35 Speaker 2: you know, at first. But so it made no sense

6:38 Speaker 2: to me, and so over my lifetime I never mentioned

6:42 Speaker 2: it to anybody, including my wife. You know, it's funny

6:45 Speaker 2: how you keep things secret and just kind of for

6:48 Speaker 2: no good reason. Maybe I was be embarrassed to talk

6:54 Speaker 2: about it, but I finally thought, well, you know, maybe

6:57 Speaker 2: it was just dreams, maybe it was something else. And

7:01 Speaker 2: so that was a first event personally that I had

7:05 Speaker 2: at that time in the subject.

7:07 Speaker 1: When did you start to connect the idea of these

7:10 Speaker 1: tiny people or human like things with extraterrestrials.

7:15 Speaker 2: Well, years later, when I began to start my process

7:21 Speaker 2: as a researcher and as a student in the subject,

7:27 Speaker 2: and began to talk with people who were who made

7:31 Speaker 2: up their business to be experts and abductions. And the

7:35 Speaker 2: more I got into the field and sat writing out

7:41 Speaker 2: questions for the researcher, for the therapist who would be

7:45 Speaker 2: asking the questions, and I'd be sitting there watching the process,

7:49 Speaker 2: and just over time I thought, well, you know, maybe

7:52 Speaker 2: there was something more to it, but I'm better off

7:56 Speaker 2: not knowing anything, so I'll just block it off and

7:58 Speaker 2: forget about it.

8:00 Speaker 1: Yeah. We talked last night about John Mack a little bit,

8:03 Speaker 1: the Harvard A great guy. Yeah, and he did a

8:07 Speaker 1: lot of these sort of hypnotic aggression sessions with people

8:12 Speaker 1: where they describe very similar scenarios.

8:15 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, a multitude of different situations. The adduction phenomena

8:20 Speaker 2: was very proliferate in the population. It seemed like even

8:29 Speaker 2: We did a survey called a roper pole and we

8:33 Speaker 2: repeated it three times so that the margin of air

8:36 Speaker 2: was really reduced to like one one and a half percent.

8:39 Speaker 2: And abduction researchers came up with the ten questions, and

8:45 Speaker 2: so they we distributed that, and the conclusion was of

8:54 Speaker 2: a fairly relatively sizeable percentage of the population had some

8:58 Speaker 2: kind of experience as according to them, according to the researchers,

9:02 Speaker 2: and according to the poll. I am not qualified to

9:07 Speaker 2: speak to the accuracy of whether the questions were that

9:10 Speaker 2: relevant to the conclusions or not, but that's what they said. So,

9:16 Speaker 2: and I had, in my own research found people that

9:20 Speaker 2: I put them through a regression, not personally, but I

9:24 Speaker 2: found a hypnotherapist that could do that. And I found

9:28 Speaker 2: a number of people just here there, scattered around, maybe

9:33 Speaker 2: somebody in my own staff, and they would come up

9:36 Speaker 2: with these these stories and these events.

9:40 Speaker 1: One of the criticisms of John Mack and hypnotic regression

9:43 Speaker 1: in general is that the idea that you can put

9:47 Speaker 1: the idea that you can put a memory into someone's head,

9:50 Speaker 1: that you could suggest things and you could create false memories.

9:54 Speaker 1: And this was something that I've read in the criticism

9:56 Speaker 1: of his work that this style of hypnotical and bringing

10:01 Speaker 1: up these very specific scenarios to a bunch of different

10:05 Speaker 1: people you can sort of help create, especially in people

10:10 Speaker 1: that are easily influenced or people that are open to suggestion,

10:14 Speaker 1: you could put these false memories in their head. And so,

10:18 Speaker 1: you know, especially when you're dealing with something as fantastic

10:22 Speaker 1: as a UFO or alien abduction or visitation or something

10:26 Speaker 1: like that.

10:27 Speaker 2: Oh, that's definitely possible. There's also something called screen memory.

10:31 Speaker 2: But dealing with the first the power suggestion, that's absolutely true.

10:35 Speaker 2: But my experience was with different hypnotherapists they went out

10:40 Speaker 2: of their way. In fact, maybe if they did make

10:43 Speaker 2: a suggestion, it was just the opposite. They might say, okay,

10:46 Speaker 2: you're on board this craft. You know where's the where's

10:51 Speaker 2: the lighting coming from? Is it coming from the corner

10:53 Speaker 2: or of the of the room that you're in, Well,

10:56 Speaker 2: there were no corners, and they'd be corrected right away

10:59 Speaker 2: by the person being hepnotized. And so they went just

11:05 Speaker 2: the opposite direction on purpose to make suggestions to maybe

11:11 Speaker 2: coax the person to come that direction, and they wouldn't

11:15 Speaker 2: do it. The person wouldn't do it. Screen memory is different. Supposedly,

11:19 Speaker 2: if somebody has a very close encounter with supposedly somebody

11:25 Speaker 2: that's that's et, you leave that that the memory turns

11:31 Speaker 2: out to be entirely different, and that's put into you consciously,

11:36 Speaker 2: and you recall something entirely different than what actually happened.

11:40 Speaker 2: Maybe you saw deer too, deer on the road or

11:44 Speaker 2: something of that sort, or maybe there were owls or whatever.

11:47 Speaker 2: So that's what's purported to be.

11:51 Speaker 1: What's crazy to me is if you go back to

11:54 Speaker 1: Betty and Barney Hill, if you go to Travis Walton,

11:57 Speaker 1: if you go a lot of these abduction experiences, people

11:59 Speaker 1: that did not know each other, and particularly we're talking

12:01 Speaker 1: about before social media, before any of this stuff, right,

12:05 Speaker 1: they have very similar stories, like similar to a disturbing extent.

12:12 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, Betty Barney, Betty and Barney Hill was accidental.

12:16 Speaker 2: You know. I think somebody had Betty or Barney had

12:20 Speaker 2: a sleep problem and they went to try to get

12:22 Speaker 2: some therapy for a sleeping disorder. I think there was

12:26 Speaker 2: some kind of connection like that, but it didn't have

12:28 Speaker 2: to do with Oh, my gosh, we have this recollection.

12:31 Speaker 2: The story evolved through the therapy and in order to

12:36 Speaker 2: try to fix this other problem. All of a sudden,

12:40 Speaker 2: this story starts just to flow out. And so I

12:44 Speaker 2: don't know whether it was Betty first and then Barney later.

12:47 Speaker 2: And I think Barney resisted going under hypnosis, I believe,

12:52 Speaker 2: and then everything just started pouring out.

12:55 Speaker 1: So there's a woman named Angela Hill. She's a top

12:57 Speaker 1: UFC fighter, and she's actually the grand daughter of Betty

13:01 Speaker 1: and Barney.

13:02 Speaker 2: Kid.

13:02 Speaker 1: It's crazy, and I didn't know about it until after

13:04 Speaker 1: we did a conversation. I was interviewing her, just talking

13:07 Speaker 1: to her about her fighting career. Yeah, and at the

13:09 Speaker 1: end of the conversation, she like, when we were done

13:12 Speaker 1: wrapping up and about to leave, She's like, oh, I

13:14 Speaker 1: forgot to tell you. And then she tells me that

13:16 Speaker 1: her grandparents were Betty and Barney Hill. Like, what, It's

13:20 Speaker 1: amazing that was her grandfather.

13:22 Speaker 2: Did you inquire? Did you ask?

13:23 Speaker 1: Yeah, we talked about it. Yeah, we talked about it,

13:25 Speaker 1: and she, you know, she didn't have much of a

13:27 Speaker 1: memory of him, but you know, her parents recalled the

13:32 Speaker 1: scenes that he described, and you know, obviously it became

13:35 Speaker 1: this huge national story. I mean, I remember hearing about

13:38 Speaker 1: it when I was a kid, so sure it was

13:40 Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties, right, yes, yeah, And there was

13:44 Speaker 1: no there was no archetype that you would sort of model,

13:48 Speaker 1: you know, your memories after. I would wonder, like if

13:52 Speaker 1: I ever did hypnotic regression today, I would I would

13:56 Speaker 1: be very skeptical of my own memories because I've heard

14:00 Speaker 1: so many stories of these spaceship encounters. I've talked to

14:04 Speaker 1: people like Travis Walton, I've talked to people like Bob Lazar.

14:07 Speaker 1: I've talked to these people that have had these experiences

14:10 Speaker 1: with these things. I would want I would think that

14:12 Speaker 1: my memory might be tainted by my expectations. But you

14:16 Speaker 1: can't say that about Betty and Barney Hill, these people

14:20 Speaker 1: they had There was no stories like that before then.

14:22 Speaker 1: This is not some pop culture thing that they were

14:25 Speaker 1: latching onto. And even the way they described these creatures,

14:29 Speaker 1: the similarities between their descriptions and Travis Walton's descriptions, you know,

14:35 Speaker 1: twenty plus years later, it's very eerie.

14:37 Speaker 2: Right right right, And the same thing with well, like

14:41 Speaker 2: Ken Arnold's sightings, you know that was that was virgin

14:45 Speaker 2: territory back then in forty six.

14:47 Speaker 1: Explain that to people.

14:48 Speaker 2: Well, so Ken Arnold was a pilot, and.

14:53 Speaker 1: That's in that movie Phenomenon, right, isn't it described in

14:56 Speaker 1: that maybe? So Phenomenon maybe?

15:00 Speaker 2: And so he was flying over Mount Shast or somewhere

15:03 Speaker 2: in Washington there and saw these objects, nine objects kind

15:08 Speaker 2: of skipping along in formation, and he, being a professional pilot,

15:15 Speaker 2: was able to estimate their speed calculate that and they

15:19 Speaker 2: were traveling way too fast for conventional aircraft. And the

15:24 Speaker 2: shape that he described was I've always thought them of

15:27 Speaker 2: them a little bit of a manta ray shape without

15:30 Speaker 2: the tail, kind of a little bit of a curve

15:32 Speaker 2: boomerang kind of shape to the craft. And that got

15:38 Speaker 2: an awful lot of attention because he was a very

15:40 Speaker 2: credible fellow, as were other people that later revealed their

15:46 Speaker 2: own sightings. Military backgrounds, people that had major rank or

15:50 Speaker 2: captain rank, you know, so they had they had stories

15:55 Speaker 2: you would listen to and about their experiences because they

15:59 Speaker 2: were professional observers in the military.

16:03 Speaker 1: And actually, while we were out eating dinner last night,

16:08 Speaker 1: Dan Crenshaw sent me a text and I shared it

16:10 Speaker 1: with everybody at the table, and it's from American Airlines

16:14 Speaker 1: pilots that saw some spectacular sighting over the last couple

16:19 Speaker 1: of days, and they're, you know, trying to figure out

16:23 Speaker 1: what the hell these people saw, but something that sped

16:26 Speaker 1: by them at some insane rates of speed, and there's

16:29 Speaker 1: a recording of them discussing.

16:31 Speaker 2: Whether it's abnormal or conventional. That should never have happened

16:37 Speaker 2: in that proximity to that aircraft. So if it were

16:40 Speaker 2: an accident, that's a really bad accident to come that close.

16:44 Speaker 2: And if it were flying in the line of flight

16:47 Speaker 2: and it sped that fast over its head, it was

16:49 Speaker 2: really moving.

16:50 Speaker 1: Yeah, well it was a conventional commercial aircraft go four

16:54 Speaker 1: hundred plus miles an hour. American Airlines pilot reports seeing UFO.

16:58 Speaker 1: An American Airlines pilot reported scene a long cylindrical object

17:02 Speaker 1: flying right over the top of the plane as he

17:04 Speaker 1: was flying. Sunday's American Airlines flight AA two two nine

17:10 Speaker 1: two was operating from Cincinnati to Phoenix using an Airbus

17:13 Speaker 1: A three twenty aircraft over the northeast portion of New

17:17 Speaker 1: Mexico at thirty seven thousand feet during what was otherwise

17:19 Speaker 1: a routine flight. One of the pilots contacted air traffic

17:22 Speaker 1: control at Albuquerque Center. He said, do you have any

17:25 Speaker 1: targets up here? We just had something go right over

17:27 Speaker 1: the top of us. I hate to say this, but

17:29 Speaker 1: it looked like a long cylindrical object that almost looked

17:32 Speaker 1: like a cruise missile type of thing, moving really fast

17:35 Speaker 1: right over the top of us.

17:36 Speaker 2: So what's missing is propulsion signature, right, So that should

17:41 Speaker 2: have been evident that it had some kind of propulsion.

17:45 Speaker 2: The exhaust owner, some kind of exhaust was was going on, right,

17:49 Speaker 2: You would think that they could detect that if it

17:52 Speaker 2: were in the line of side, if they were if

17:54 Speaker 2: they were behind it.

17:55 Speaker 1: Well that's a very short description though. I mean, maybe

17:57 Speaker 1: it did have some sort of propulsion that they saw.

18:00 Speaker 1: That's all we saw. I mean, maybe there's a report

18:02 Speaker 1: that'll come out where they describe it in detail. That's

18:05 Speaker 1: just them calling it in right.

18:07 Speaker 2: Yeah. If it's not super unique, then was one hell

18:09 Speaker 2: of a mistake, right.

18:10 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, but it's just Yeah, there's a lot

18:14 Speaker 1: of those, that's the problem. There's there's a lot of these,

18:17 Speaker 1: and there's there's video of them, like the one what

18:21 Speaker 1: is it, the one that's on the East coast that's

18:23 Speaker 1: moving over the surface of the water and insane rates

18:25 Speaker 1: of speed, and you see it. It's also no heat signature,

18:29 Speaker 1: no obvious method of propulsion, and it doesn't exhibit because

18:35 Speaker 1: that one was done I believe it was infrared the camera,

18:38 Speaker 1: so you should have been able to see some exhaust

18:41 Speaker 1: or some heat signature that was showing how it was

18:44 Speaker 1: being propelled at that insane rates of speed. And you

18:46 Speaker 1: hear these pilots who are used to flying these they're

18:49 Speaker 1: flying fighter jets, and they're like, holy shit, look at

18:52 Speaker 1: this thing, and they're you know, they're kind of freaking out.

18:55 Speaker 2: Well, the good news is there's there are so many

18:59 Speaker 2: more people with amazons with cell phones these days, and

19:03 Speaker 2: so you have a much more aware of public than

19:06 Speaker 2: you did. What twenty five years ago in nineteen ninety

19:11 Speaker 2: seven was the so called Phoenix Lights, and they weren't

19:15 Speaker 2: just lights because that craft started from northern Arizona some

19:20 Speaker 2: say maybe Clark County, Nevada area, and proceeded down south

19:26 Speaker 2: toward Phoenix in the twilight of the evening, where thousands

19:30 Speaker 2: of people saw structure. It wasn't just lights, It wasn't

19:33 Speaker 2: just could it be confused with flares dropping aircraft dropping flares,

19:40 Speaker 2: and no such things had occurred anyway at that time

19:44 Speaker 2: of day. And so people saw structure, and the structure

19:50 Speaker 2: was estimated what quarter mile maybe from tip to boomerang

19:54 Speaker 2: kind of shape, kind of craft. And yet it could

20:00 Speaker 2: have been a really big deal newswise right over a

20:04 Speaker 2: major city, so many observers, and but it wasn't. And

20:10 Speaker 2: then you had but.

20:11 Speaker 1: It was though, right because we all know about it well.

20:13 Speaker 2: But then, of course the governor at the time was

20:17 Speaker 2: Fife Syrington, and we know now that he didn't know

20:21 Speaker 2: what to do because he was an actual witness that

20:23 Speaker 2: he admitted to ten years later of actually being a witness, right,

20:27 Speaker 2: but he didn't know how to address that.

20:30 Speaker 1: That was the famous press conference. That was a famous

20:32 Speaker 1: press conference had a guy dress up like an alien.

20:35 Speaker 2: On the stage of it exactly had just if he

20:39 Speaker 2: had done just the opposite, what might have happened on

20:42 Speaker 2: that with his testimony as being a witness a governor

20:45 Speaker 2: of a state and then draw that other people then

20:48 Speaker 2: might have come forth more and more volume of folks saying, yeah,

20:52 Speaker 2: me too, I saw it. I saw it.

20:53 Speaker 1: With your understanding of the way the government sort of

20:58 Speaker 1: processes this kind of inform that it's not. It's not

21:04 Speaker 1: available to everybody, and the information in terms of like

21:07 Speaker 1: what these things are, what they aren't, whether or not

21:09 Speaker 1: they're some sort of top secret aircraft that the government

21:13 Speaker 1: is working on or whatever it is, they don't unless

21:18 Speaker 1: they're making press conferences about these things, they don't necessarily

21:21 Speaker 1: want to broadcast what it is, and they certainly don't

21:23 Speaker 1: want to broadcast it if it's not one of ours.

21:27 Speaker 1: Do you think that they contacted the governor and informed

21:31 Speaker 1: him that he needed to make a mockery of this,

21:33 Speaker 1: or do you think it was his own personal decision.

21:36 Speaker 2: My failing is it was his personal decision, and my

21:41 Speaker 2: feeling is that the government is not that organized anymore.

21:47 Speaker 2: Maybe it was back some quite a while back, but

21:50 Speaker 2: I don't think that I think that denial is able

21:57 Speaker 2: to be to be carried forth without government encouragement.

22:03 Speaker 1: So he probably did just to calm everybody down. Yeah,

22:07 Speaker 1: it probably felt tremendous pressure, right because I remember this

22:09 Speaker 1: was an enormous story. I mean, it was going all

22:12 Speaker 1: across the United States as people were talking about it,

22:14 Speaker 1: and then there was all sorts of sort of semi

22:17 Speaker 1: reasonable explanations about dropping flares The thing about the dropping

22:21 Speaker 1: flares though, were that they hovered in the sky for

22:24 Speaker 1: a long time, like it didn't make any sense at flared,

22:27 Speaker 1: Like are they defying gravity? How are they just because

22:29 Speaker 1: there's video footage of it from multiple sources, home footage

22:33 Speaker 1: where people are filming these things, where these these red

22:36 Speaker 1: lights that are just hovering in the sky, but the

22:38 Speaker 1: red lights coincided with these triangular shaped vehicles or boomerang

22:44 Speaker 1: shaped vehicles that other people were seeing.

22:46 Speaker 2: Well, there were people living on Camelback Mountain and that

22:50 Speaker 2: this is how low this craft was to the surface,

22:54 Speaker 2: is it they got an edge on view, Yeah, coming

22:57 Speaker 2: practically at them, just slightly over and went over them.

23:00 Speaker 1: But there's no video of that, right, not.

23:02 Speaker 2: That I don't know there could be, I've never seen.

23:06 Speaker 1: This was ninety ninety seven. Yeah, yeah, see that's you know,

23:10 Speaker 1: phones back then, not everybody had a phone, and they

23:15 Speaker 1: didn't have good cameras.

23:16 Speaker 2: Right.

23:16 Speaker 1: The thing about even today, you know with cameras and

23:19 Speaker 1: most cell phone cameras aren't capable of seeing things at

23:24 Speaker 1: a zoom. With the exception of the Samsung Galaxy series,

23:29 Speaker 1: the new ones, they actually have a setting where you

23:32 Speaker 1: could take photographs of the moon because they have some

23:34 Speaker 1: pretty spectacular zoom capabilities. It's pretty interesting stuff. And if

23:39 Speaker 1: you got one of those and you saw something this guy,

23:41 Speaker 1: maybe you could zoom in on it and get a

23:43 Speaker 1: good shot of it. But you know, you're talking about

23:45 Speaker 1: things traveling and in saying rates of speed, that's very

23:48 Speaker 1: far away, you're really not going to get much anyway.

23:50 Speaker 2: No, it's got to be much closer to really have

23:53 Speaker 2: definition of what it is you're looking at.

23:55 Speaker 1: Now. There was a story quite recently of a pilot

24:01 Speaker 1: in a fighter jet that took a photograph of some

24:04 Speaker 1: similar shaped object, some triangular shaped object, and apparently it

24:08 Speaker 1: was very very clear image. It was a very clear image,

24:12 Speaker 1: and there was some speculation about people releasing this and

24:15 Speaker 1: that they were going to release it, and there was

24:17 Speaker 1: hesitation about releasing it. Do you know about this well?

24:20 Speaker 2: Is that the one off the East coast real recently? No,

24:25 Speaker 2: I'm not familiar with that.

24:26 Speaker 1: There was do you know what I'm talking about, Jamie?

24:28 Speaker 1: I think we discussed it. With the picture that you

24:30 Speaker 1: can see they zoomed in on the picture apparently is bullshit.

24:34 Speaker 1: That picture apparently is not real.

24:36 Speaker 2: But there was one taken by a pilot in the plane. Yeah,

24:40 Speaker 2: but a couple two three years ago sometime.

24:43 Speaker 1: Oh, different ones. See. This is a Pentagon response to

24:47 Speaker 1: release a photo taken from Navy pilot showing unidentified objects.

24:51 Speaker 1: I heard that this was nonsense. I heard from people

24:54 Speaker 1: that are in the know that this is not the

24:56 Speaker 1: image that they're talking about, the one they have. This

24:59 Speaker 1: is according people that are in the military, the one

25:01 Speaker 1: that they have is much clearer than this.

25:03 Speaker 2: There's more than one image right there.

25:05 Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe.

25:06 Speaker 2: Maybe talking about different ones.

25:08 Speaker 1: Maybe I don't know. Okay, breaking sorry, Breaking Debrief Media

25:12 Speaker 1: has learned the leak of an unclassified photo said to

25:15 Speaker 1: have been widely distributed in the intelligence community, which proportedly

25:17 Speaker 1: shows what the DoD is characterized as unidentified aerial phenomenon.

25:22 Speaker 1: I don't know if that's see. Look, obviously I'm just

25:25 Speaker 1: talking out of my ass, But what I had heard

25:27 Speaker 1: was that that was not the image in question, that

25:30 Speaker 1: there was a much, much clear image in question. That

25:32 Speaker 1: was pretty stunning that they were debating on whether or

25:35 Speaker 1: not to release. Because once The New York Times in

25:39 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen published that front page article that showed some

25:42 Speaker 1: of those images that have been captured from the video

25:44 Speaker 1: cameras and that Fighter Jets experiences and talked about Commander

25:49 Speaker 1: David Fraver's experience with the TIC tac ufo off the

25:52 Speaker 1: coast of San Diego. That sort of like released a

25:56 Speaker 1: lot of pressure on the concept of if you discuss

26:02 Speaker 1: these things, you're a foolish person, right for a long time,

26:06 Speaker 1: And I'm sure you must have experienced this because you've

26:08 Speaker 1: been in the game for a long time, right, discussing

26:12 Speaker 1: UFOs in nineteen seventy or in nineteen eighty, like people

26:16 Speaker 1: would look at you like you're probably crazy or something.

26:19 Speaker 2: Right, I was too busy being in business in those years.

26:23 Speaker 1: You didn't care.

26:25 Speaker 2: I had a little plan I was following that I

26:28 Speaker 2: put together when I was a kid, and I was

26:31 Speaker 2: on a mission to be in business to acquire resources

26:37 Speaker 2: so that I could someday have fun chasing this stuff.

26:40 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's one of the more interesting things about you,

26:43 Speaker 1: Like you became like a hotel tycoon and a real

26:45 Speaker 1: estate tycoon, gathered up all this money so that you

26:49 Speaker 1: could study UFOs.

26:51 Speaker 2: And do fun things maybe in space.

26:53 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, you've also been involved in creating shelters and

26:57 Speaker 1: structures that people can actually live in and space, right

27:00 Speaker 1: that's the genesis and the genesis what.

27:03 Speaker 2: We call it to B three thirty is what we

27:06 Speaker 2: have on our plant right now is engineering units, which

27:12 Speaker 2: are flight units far as hull and bulkheads are concerned

27:16 Speaker 2: and Lingerion's and so we had to shut down because

27:23 Speaker 2: of the COVID and but we have very advanced structures.

27:29 Speaker 1: Yeah, and these have been implemented too, some of them

27:32 Speaker 1: have actually been you've actually put these things.

27:34 Speaker 2: We have a TRL nine because we have a structure

27:38 Speaker 2: scale structure that's on the ISS now.

27:44 Speaker 1: Yeah. So your dream in a lot of ways of

27:47 Speaker 1: getting involved in aerospace and in space travel, like you're

27:51 Speaker 1: this is real, Like, yeah, you're a guy who actually

27:54 Speaker 1: has contracts with you know, big government.

27:58 Speaker 2: Not that I've ever made money back, you know, it's

28:01 Speaker 2: been a bottomless pit. Yeah.

28:03 Speaker 1: Sure, So you've just done it as a passion on a.

28:07 Speaker 2: Maybe a hope and a prayer, you know kind of thing.

28:10 Speaker 2: Hail Mary's.

28:11 Speaker 1: And part of it is because of your obsession with extraterrestrials.

28:17 Speaker 2: I'm not sure. I don't know, I don't know. Probably

28:22 Speaker 2: that probably is a connection there because you're made aware

28:26 Speaker 2: that there is a whole lot more out there than

28:29 Speaker 2: what we know and what people think, so that there

28:34 Speaker 2: probably is a connection was always was.

28:37 Speaker 1: Do you have any images of that? See, let's pull

28:38 Speaker 1: it up so people can see what we're talking about

28:40 Speaker 1: the stuff that you've created. Yeah, so this.

28:43 Speaker 2: One, so that's an older version that we did quite

28:47 Speaker 2: a long time ago. We have a full scale that's

28:50 Speaker 2: that's just a one third scale basic architectural features and

28:56 Speaker 2: accommodations for a living.

29:02 Speaker 1: Space.

29:03 Speaker 2: Now, yeah, I think those are those are full scale

29:08 Speaker 2: architectural renderings now down at the bottom. Okay, okay, so

29:16 Speaker 2: that's full scale.

29:17 Speaker 1: That one right there.

29:17 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's an old version, but that's a full scale.

29:21 Speaker 2: That's three hundred and thirty quebec meters and it's a

29:25 Speaker 2: it's a more crude mock up than what we have now.

29:29 Speaker 2: And the standard volume on a module for the ISS

29:33 Speaker 2: is about one hundred and twenty or the largest is

29:35 Speaker 2: aroun one hundred and twenty qubic meters, So three thirty

29:38 Speaker 2: is about you know, three almost three times that.

29:40 Speaker 1: So when you design one of these things, or when

29:43 Speaker 1: you go into business to create one of these things,

29:46 Speaker 1: what's the steps that you're taking? You do you contact

29:50 Speaker 1: engineers do you bring in? I mean, how do you

29:53 Speaker 1: how do you decide that you want to go into

29:55 Speaker 1: business to make these things? And how do you go

29:57 Speaker 1: about implementing it?

29:59 Speaker 2: So you know, it was it's been a twenty year process,

30:04 Speaker 2: and first you try to try to engineer. In fact,

30:13 Speaker 2: I had nothing about about the origination was original with

30:17 Speaker 2: me because I became incredulous about what NASA had done

30:24 Speaker 2: in the uh in the early nineties with something called

30:28 Speaker 2: the Transhab and it was a vehicle to take people

30:32 Speaker 2: to Mars, and Congress cut the funding for that, and

30:40 Speaker 2: oh my god, how could they do such a thing

30:41 Speaker 2: because it was very apparent, apparent that that that craft

30:46 Speaker 2: was really cool for a lot of reasons. And so

30:52 Speaker 2: I started the company, started putting money in it, and

30:54 Speaker 2: started going after that, and then after about three years,

30:57 Speaker 2: acquired a license license to use their patent for just

31:03 Speaker 2: for the enclosure. No book of instructions came with it.

31:07 Speaker 2: There wasn't a manual saying here's how you do this,

31:10 Speaker 2: and so we started from scratch, and we had no

31:13 Speaker 2: assistance from NASA whatsoever in arranging architectures and engineering. And

31:18 Speaker 2: then through a process of trial and error and testing

31:22 Speaker 2: and testing and testing destructive testing, long duration leak tests

31:28 Speaker 2: destructive because you had to try to quantify the strength

31:34 Speaker 2: of the materials, and we were using factors much more

31:40 Speaker 2: demanding than the factors for metallics, factors of four instead

31:45 Speaker 2: of metallics maybe one in a quarter or something. And

31:51 Speaker 2: we finally engineered envelopes that were very durable. Ballistically, did

32:00 Speaker 2: a lot of what's called hypervelocity impacts tests where you

32:05 Speaker 2: shoot a particle at about seven kilometers a second six

32:08 Speaker 2: to seven depending on the type of gas gun you're using,

32:12 Speaker 2: and seeing how well the structure can defend against something

32:16 Speaker 2: going that fast. Actually, the defense on something going fast

32:21 Speaker 2: is easier than a particle going slower, like a bullet

32:25 Speaker 2: for example. Kind of crazy, but for some reason.

32:30 Speaker 1: And when you mean defense you mean something like micromediors

32:33 Speaker 1: or space.

32:34 Speaker 2: Yeah, actually smaller than that, you know, maybe the size

32:37 Speaker 2: of a centimeter, which is actually a big particle historically

32:42 Speaker 2: to hit something, you know, like the station or whatever.

32:46 Speaker 2: I think maybe some of the solar rays have been

32:48 Speaker 2: hit by something that large. But so you're defending against

32:53 Speaker 2: also radiation. Aluminum structures are not what you want to

32:57 Speaker 2: be inside, especially for deep space missions. Outside of LEO

33:03 Speaker 2: lower Earth orbit and uh, there's something called secondary radiation

33:08 Speaker 2: that that propagates. So and the background galactic radiation has

33:12 Speaker 2: heavy protons and it's it's more lethal.

33:17 Speaker 1: So what did you do to shield your habitats from radiation?

33:22 Speaker 2: Well, the hall has no aluminum structure, so and the

33:30 Speaker 2: hall is a matrix of many layers of different kinds

33:34 Speaker 2: of materials. And those materials are like kevlar, you know,

33:43 Speaker 2: or vectran. We use vectran a little bit for a

33:47 Speaker 2: couple of reasons, but it's like kevlar. And so through

33:52 Speaker 2: a series of other materials in addition to to that

33:58 Speaker 2: type of material you start to evolve a shield. And

34:04 Speaker 2: the shield on a B three thirty overall is about

34:08 Speaker 2: fifteen to eighteen inches thick, and there is there are

34:14 Speaker 2: spaces in between layers. So it's not as though you

34:20 Speaker 2: can press it and it's going to be a foot

34:22 Speaker 2: and a half thick. But it's those spaces that make

34:26 Speaker 2: a difference and how debris breaks up and finally just

34:32 Speaker 2: becomes dust or if it's too fast and too large,

34:36 Speaker 2: it's not dust. It's going to succeed on going through

34:38 Speaker 2: and when.

34:39 Speaker 1: It does, is there a patch method?

34:41 Speaker 2: Yeah, used to. First of all, you have to maybe

34:44 Speaker 2: locate there could be things on the hall that are

34:47 Speaker 2: in the way because you use the hall as an

34:49 Speaker 2: attaching surface and so that volume is very useful. And

34:55 Speaker 2: so assuming you've located it now, and it depends on

34:59 Speaker 2: the size of the particle. If it actually was significantly large,

35:03 Speaker 2: it blow off whatever it was attached to the hole.

35:06 Speaker 2: You just put another hole right through whatever is attached,

35:08 Speaker 2: so it'd be easier to find the hole. That's the

35:10 Speaker 2: good news. Bad news. The gases you know, you're gas

35:14 Speaker 2: is escaping a lot faster, so you do have some time,

35:18 Speaker 2: though in a large volume, for that gas to totally escape.

35:21 Speaker 2: So then you have to make a judgment as to, uh,

35:24 Speaker 2: do you have time to create the patch, And it's

35:26 Speaker 2: actually fairly simple process because anything you put there wants

35:30 Speaker 2: to stick to the wall, right but depending on a

35:36 Speaker 2: basketball size something. Uh, there's not an explosion, It doesn't

35:40 Speaker 2: go boom like a balloon. It just loses gas. You know,

35:45 Speaker 2: your air and so you probably have time to go

35:48 Speaker 2: to the airlock unless you're on the pot or escape.

35:52 Speaker 2: You'd have time to escape.

35:53 Speaker 1: But that would be the move you really wouldn't you want.

35:55 Speaker 2: To Yeah, you want to be able to go someplace else,

35:57 Speaker 2: and you know, hopefully you're attached to something that can

35:59 Speaker 2: calm whoever's on board.

36:01 Speaker 1: Why did this become your area of specialty when it

36:06 Speaker 1: comes to aerospace, Like, why did you invest in this?

36:09 Speaker 1: Why did you invest in habitats?

36:11 Speaker 2: Well, at first I played around with some other companies.

36:14 Speaker 2: I invested in two or three other companies in the

36:17 Speaker 2: late nineties. One they were rocketplane type companies. I came

36:24 Speaker 2: very close to investing in what Bert Rutan was creating

36:32 Speaker 2: before Virgin came along, and so I was looking for

36:38 Speaker 2: some place to go, some to put capital, money and

36:42 Speaker 2: energy and passion into something. And so I did these

36:46 Speaker 2: investments in these different companies, and then I stumbled on

36:48 Speaker 2: the transab. You know, So.

36:52 Speaker 1: Your initial idea was maybe some sort of commercial space

36:56 Speaker 1: travel type investment, something like Virgin Galactic or some like.

37:00 Speaker 2: Yeah, I really didn't know. I think the most enticing

37:03 Speaker 2: thing was what Bert was working on, and and that

37:08 Speaker 2: the financial model for that was very attractive, and I

37:16 Speaker 2: think he was. Of course, he's a aircraft design genius.

37:21 Speaker 2: He has so many awards you hardly can count them

37:24 Speaker 2: as you walk down the hallway to his office. It's

37:27 Speaker 2: like floor to ceiling plaques, you know. Yeah, got a

37:31 Speaker 2: couple lecture just for souvenirs, you know something, you know.

37:34 Speaker 2: But and so he's he's a total genius. And he,

37:38 Speaker 2: by the way, had his own UFO siding that has

37:42 Speaker 2: stayed with him all his life.

37:44 Speaker 1: How old was he?

37:45 Speaker 2: I don't know. You'll have to get that story from him,

37:47 Speaker 2: but it's worth listening to. So many people have you know.

37:53 Speaker 2: So anyway, that's how I started in that and I

37:56 Speaker 2: fell in love with the concept of expandable systems, paunching

38:00 Speaker 2: something with a finite firing diameter and length and being

38:05 Speaker 2: able to triple the size of that volume once it's

38:10 Speaker 2: ejected and it's it's launched, you know, and the firing

38:13 Speaker 2: opens up and now you start to expand and inflate

38:16 Speaker 2: and wow, all that you can do with that volume

38:20 Speaker 2: is really cool.

38:21 Speaker 1: And so this allowed you to I mean, these contracts

38:26 Speaker 1: if you're doing with the is are they with NASA

38:29 Speaker 1: or like? Who is that? Who you work with?

38:32 Speaker 2: Yeah? And NASA's that basically has been the only game

38:34 Speaker 2: in town for us and for most folks, most folks

38:37 Speaker 2: in the rocket business other than for the Air Force,

38:41 Speaker 2: who buys launches for satellites. NASA is the game still,

38:45 Speaker 2: and when NASA is financially hurting, everybody hurts. Depending upon

38:51 Speaker 2: who who is providing the leadership, both in Congress and

38:58 Speaker 2: in NASA and in the White House, you can do

39:02 Speaker 2: fantastic things. So it's all a combination of whether or

39:05 Speaker 2: not people can all work together. If they're fighting in

39:09 Speaker 2: Congress and going on, you're not going to get much.

39:11 Speaker 2: You're not going to go places like you could. Yeah.

39:15 Speaker 1: So with you being involved in this and creating these

39:17 Speaker 1: habitats and your long standing obsession with UFOs and the

39:22 Speaker 1: potential alien life, getting involved with NASA must have been

39:26 Speaker 1: pretty exciting. You're like, well, maybe I'm going to learn

39:29 Speaker 1: something now.

39:30 Speaker 2: Oh, definitely, you're definitely going to learn. Absolutely. They have

39:35 Speaker 2: a lot of good people and very expert people, so

39:40 Speaker 2: you're going to learn a lot. It's a great place

39:43 Speaker 2: to sponge all that you can.

39:47 Speaker 1: I mean, learn things about UFOs and alien.

39:50 Speaker 2: Life all that, all that. Oh, no, I was back,

39:55 Speaker 2: I was back about you know, space, conventional space travel.

39:58 Speaker 1: Well that too. The basically to learn.

40:02 Speaker 2: You're not going to learn anything about UFOs and et

40:06 Speaker 2: from the vast, vast vast, vast majority of the scientific community,

40:11 Speaker 2: and that includes NASA and everybody else.

40:15 Speaker 1: Are they not interested?

40:18 Speaker 2: I think it's a combination of things. I think the

40:21 Speaker 2: reason for that is not because they're not interested, and

40:25 Speaker 2: a lot of people are. Because I'm asked things all

40:27 Speaker 2: the time, a lot of people are. I think there's

40:30 Speaker 2: always the concern of embarrassment. I think they're not in

40:34 Speaker 2: a position to be an investigator. They might have a

40:37 Speaker 2: passion and want to do that, but it takes time.

40:40 Speaker 2: It takes time and effort to go do those things,

40:44 Speaker 2: and usually you want to stick to what your career is, right. So,

40:50 Speaker 2: and maybe they they've had somebody in their family that

40:53 Speaker 2: has had a tremendous story and so they'll carry that

40:59 Speaker 2: with them. They might be they might buy the books,

41:02 Speaker 2: they keep it home, they might brown bag it, you know,

41:06 Speaker 2: not bring it to the lunch at commissary where other

41:08 Speaker 2: people can see what you're reading, you know. So it's

41:10 Speaker 2: all different kinds of things. So everybody's different, right.

41:13 Speaker 1: So there's kind of a maybe a shame or something

41:17 Speaker 1: along that line involved in pursuing extraterrestrial ideas.

41:22 Speaker 2: Not as much as it used to be. Now it

41:25 Speaker 2: was much worse twenty thirty years ago. What was it

41:27 Speaker 2: like then, Well, as I could speak to you know,

41:31 Speaker 2: just the general science population was much more reticent to

41:39 Speaker 2: talk about UFOs thirty years ago, I think than today.

41:43 Speaker 2: There's been so much more exposure on the media. So

41:48 Speaker 2: because you have regular television program now on aliens, ET's

41:53 Speaker 2: ancient aliens, whatever, doesn't matter. It's all over the place

41:56 Speaker 2: compared to twenty five years ago. It's a it's a

42:00 Speaker 2: different kind of world. But the thing about the UFO

42:07 Speaker 2: E T subject as you continue to do research and

42:12 Speaker 2: work in that whole community, is kind of a strange

42:19 Speaker 2: frustration about acquiring a little bit of a taste of

42:24 Speaker 2: understanding about the possibilities of locomotion of movement and where

42:31 Speaker 2: we are that we're still working with fire engines, you know,

42:35 Speaker 2: and thank God for people like Elon and Jeff Bezos.

42:41 Speaker 2: I really respect those guys, and including Elon's secret weapon, Gwen,

42:49 Speaker 2: you know, his president. Those are the country is so

42:53 Speaker 2: lucky to have them. But the dynamicism of UFOs and

42:59 Speaker 2: ets is so overwhelming as to what that world is like,

43:05 Speaker 2: and if it's all true, or even some of it true,

43:09 Speaker 2: it's more than just a holy cow, it's oh my god.

43:12 Speaker 2: You know. So it's like night and day comparison, and

43:16 Speaker 2: here we are still in twenty twenty one and still

43:20 Speaker 2: waiting to get back to the moon.

43:22 Speaker 1: Well, I think when we were talking earlier about the

43:24 Speaker 1: New York Times article, I think that was a real

43:28 Speaker 1: pivotal moment in the culture's acceptance of the concept of

43:32 Speaker 1: these things, because when you see something like that printed

43:34 Speaker 1: on the front page of the New York Times, when

43:37 Speaker 1: you see like people like Command of Favor, yea very

43:42 Speaker 1: well respected you know, all full respect, no one, No

43:49 Speaker 1: one thinks that guy's a kook. Oh no. You read

43:51 Speaker 1: about his experiences and you go, okay, there's something to this.

43:54 Speaker 2: And Leslie Keane, the journalist that did that article, did

43:57 Speaker 2: a terrific job. Fantastic job.

44:00 Speaker 1: It's a dangerous subject for someone, Yeah, that is you're

44:03 Speaker 1: open to ridicule, But the preponderance of evidence had gotten

44:08 Speaker 1: to the point where there was enough out there we

44:10 Speaker 1: could say, listen, this is not something to be mocked anymore.

44:13 Speaker 1: There's something to this, right, that's right.

44:15 Speaker 2: When you have you have like Commander Favor, and we

44:19 Speaker 2: hired Douga, one of the pilots there. We learned about

44:23 Speaker 2: that in eight. The event happened in four. So you

44:28 Speaker 2: have really credible people seeing something that's totally anomaloust that

44:33 Speaker 2: has no business doing what it's doing, right, So you

44:37 Speaker 2: got to take it really seriously.

44:38 Speaker 1: Not only things that have been tracked by instrumentation, things

44:41 Speaker 1: that have gone from it's like eighty thousand feet above

44:44 Speaker 1: sea level to one foot in less than a second

44:46 Speaker 1: and then traveled to the agreed upon destination where the

44:53 Speaker 1: plane is going to go later like that, they knew it,

44:56 Speaker 1: knew where they were traveling to, it was able to

44:59 Speaker 1: travel at an insane rate of speed. That's not even

45:03 Speaker 1: it doesn't make any sense with any technology that we've

45:06 Speaker 1: ever even theorized. No, So these are these are things

45:14 Speaker 1: that were tracked by instrumentation. So it's not this is

45:17 Speaker 1: the best instrumentation. This is instrumentation that's used by the

45:20 Speaker 1: United States Military to protect the boards. It's all the

45:22 Speaker 1: real shit. So when you read things like that in

45:25 Speaker 1: the New York Times, everybody has to going and go

45:27 Speaker 1: huh yeah, okay.

45:30 Speaker 2: And then and you couple that with hundreds of thousands

45:32 Speaker 2: or millions of other events and stories that have happened

45:36 Speaker 2: over the last fifty sixty seventy years. You think, oh

45:40 Speaker 2: my god, we're so far behind, you know, of what

45:46 Speaker 2: else is going on?

45:47 Speaker 1: Right, because we've been so afraid of ridicules.

45:50 Speaker 2: How long is it going to take us to get

45:51 Speaker 2: to that point?

45:52 Speaker 1: Right?

45:53 Speaker 2: You know? And do we even understand even the beginnings

45:56 Speaker 2: of the physics of it? Because what if there are

45:59 Speaker 2: a consciousness of rate it? You know, that's it. You

46:02 Speaker 2: don't have the right metal signature, It isn't going anywhere.

46:05 Speaker 2: Nothing is coming on now, there's no lights. The dash

46:09 Speaker 2: didn't a light up, right, So.

46:10 Speaker 1: Sort of like when you walk up to your car,

46:13 Speaker 1: like I have a Ford f one fifty, when I

46:16 Speaker 1: get near it, it knows I'm there because my keyfob. Sure,

46:20 Speaker 1: you know, when I touch the handle or like a

46:23 Speaker 1: somebody else.

46:23 Speaker 2: Has key fob, Yes, it's gonna it's gonna light up.

46:26 Speaker 1: But instead of it being like like a Tesla keyfob,

46:30 Speaker 1: when you get to it, the handle opens up so

46:32 Speaker 1: you could open the door. I guess you get close

46:34 Speaker 1: to it's pretty cool, Yeah, sure, but instead of that,

46:37 Speaker 1: it's actually your consciousness.

46:39 Speaker 2: And what if you're not even close to it? Yeah,

46:41 Speaker 2: what if you're on the other side of the planet

46:42 Speaker 2: and you want.

46:43 Speaker 1: It to start like you can with a car with

46:46 Speaker 1: a with an application, Like if you have a Tesla,

46:49 Speaker 1: you could roll your windows up with an app. You

46:50 Speaker 1: can lock it with the app, right, it operates through

46:53 Speaker 1: Wi Fi. Who's to say they can't do something like

46:56 Speaker 1: that with with consciousness.

46:58 Speaker 2: Yeah, we have no no idea.

47:00 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not even that's not even outside of

47:03 Speaker 1: what makes sense. You know, if you looked at like

47:06 Speaker 1: if you followed the technology and the technological improvements over

47:13 Speaker 1: the last fifteen twenty years, and you explored the possibility

47:18 Speaker 1: of what could be done in the next hundred or

47:19 Speaker 1: a thousand or one hundred thousand years, but yeah, that's

47:22 Speaker 1: not even crazy.

47:23 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, in physics is incomplete in my humble opinion,

47:29 Speaker 2: because it doesn't provide answers for all the paranormal basket,

47:34 Speaker 2: not just what we're talking about with at UFOs, but

47:38 Speaker 2: all the other kinds of stuff that has done and

47:41 Speaker 2: has been done in laboratories for many, many years on

47:44 Speaker 2: camera by people that have performed really strange things.

47:51 Speaker 1: You mean, like quantum mechanics and no.

47:53 Speaker 2: No, like micro macro piquet. Something just takes something simple.

47:58 Speaker 2: What is that Michael, just manipulating material objects, whether they're

48:04 Speaker 2: electrons and so or or a bottle cap. And so

48:11 Speaker 2: you're let's say you've got a screen computer and you've

48:15 Speaker 2: got to it's hooked up to a random event generator

48:18 Speaker 2: and which is flipping a coin, you know, many many

48:22 Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands of times a second, and it's establishing

48:27 Speaker 2: a firm even line this fifty to fifty across your screen.

48:31 Speaker 2: And then there's another line coming along, and your challenge

48:35 Speaker 2: is to is to have the two lines deviate, so

48:41 Speaker 2: you're you're and I don't know, it's been so many

48:44 Speaker 2: years since I was in the pair of lab with

48:46 Speaker 2: Bob john And and Brenda Dunn. I forget the exact

48:50 Speaker 2: details on this, but the point was there was a

48:52 Speaker 2: line that was created, a second line that you were

48:55 Speaker 2: to think about and try to deviate that line, and

48:58 Speaker 2: you should not be able to do that at all.

49:00 Speaker 2: So they had maybe one flat line on the screen,

49:03 Speaker 2: and then you had this random event generator that should

49:05 Speaker 2: be fifty to fifty right alongside that same line, but

49:08 Speaker 2: it's not. You're causing it to go up or you're

49:11 Speaker 2: causing it to go down. And they had a lot

49:13 Speaker 2: of people successful on this many many many, and they

49:16 Speaker 2: did just a huge number of trials that were successful.

49:20 Speaker 2: So that's in the smallest context. You had. Well, that

49:25 Speaker 2: Russian woman, uh, Colignia something like that was her name,

49:28 Speaker 2: that worked with objects in a bell jar and she

49:33 Speaker 2: would be able to manipulate to them, cause them to spind,

49:35 Speaker 2: cause them.

49:36 Speaker 1: To lift and objects what kind of objects?

49:39 Speaker 2: Small objects? You know, something something small, microscopic No no, no, no,

49:44 Speaker 2: like a bottle cap, you know, something that size.

49:47 Speaker 1: So some sort of telekinesis macro piquet.

49:52 Speaker 2: So you're it's some kind of a consciousness connection that

49:56 Speaker 2: is causing the effect that effect on that object.

50:00 Speaker 1: This is something that's been filmed. Yeah, so this woman

50:04 Speaker 1: is doing.

50:05 Speaker 2: What and she died at a relatively young age. Her

50:08 Speaker 2: heart they said, would go up to like one hundred

50:10 Speaker 2: and eighty beats or ninety beats a minute.

50:13 Speaker 1: And I while she was doing this, yeah, and she

50:16 Speaker 1: was just just as this lady, Well, your guy is good,

50:19 Speaker 1: he's the best, he is the best. So what is

50:23 Speaker 1: she doing here? Well, she's oh, this is like really

50:26 Speaker 1: old stuff.

50:27 Speaker 2: Huh oh yeah, oh yeah, she's moved those matches.

50:31 Speaker 1: Yeah, but she's also moving that piece of.

50:34 Speaker 2: Metal right, And there's other ones where she would do this,

50:38 Speaker 2: and these things would be in a bell jar, I believe.

50:41 Speaker 1: So she's not touching it, she's making it move.

50:44 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think they literally wore her out.

50:47 Speaker 1: What year is this? Yeah, here's my problem. This is

50:52 Speaker 1: something that's on the table. I can't see below the table.

50:55 Speaker 1: I can't see if there's a bad magnet. I can't

50:58 Speaker 1: see what's underneath this deck cards. There's a piece of

51:01 Speaker 1: metal and you can move things around with fuckery. I

51:04 Speaker 1: don't know if this is real. And those matches were

51:06 Speaker 1: moving because that piece of metal was moving the matches right,

51:10 Speaker 1: So the piece of metal was plowing the matches, and

51:12 Speaker 1: she's got it moving around. I'm not buying into this.

51:15 Speaker 2: But on its face, yeah, it's really intriguing.

51:18 Speaker 1: It's intriguing, but it's a party trick, like to even

51:21 Speaker 1: I don't even like the way it's set up, the

51:23 Speaker 1: way it's set up on a table, and she's doing

51:25 Speaker 1: this with her hand and her lap is right there

51:27 Speaker 1: and anything could be happening there. It's cool if it

51:31 Speaker 1: was real. But and that's that looks really old, like

51:34 Speaker 1: what years.

51:35 Speaker 2: Ago, I don't know, probably fifties yeah, yeah, I don't know.

51:38 Speaker 2: But so the point really is, if you were to

51:42 Speaker 2: make it a job to accumulate there's kind of information

51:48 Speaker 2: from as many sources as possible, you'd really have a

51:52 Speaker 2: large volume of stuff, and then you'd have a lot

51:55 Speaker 2: of material to look at an analyze. It's not just

51:57 Speaker 2: one case. I think it's easy to to look at

52:00 Speaker 2: one case and have doubts because it is just once.

52:03 Speaker 2: It isn't one situation.

52:05 Speaker 1: Do you think that things like psychic powers, like or

52:09 Speaker 1: psychic or an understanding of other people's thoughts and ideas,

52:13 Speaker 1: these are maybe possibly emerging aspects of human beings, like

52:19 Speaker 1: as a human evolves, as we go from being, you know,

52:23 Speaker 1: a tree dwelling primate to being what we are today,

52:27 Speaker 1: where people are intuitive and we can sort of read

52:30 Speaker 1: social cues and we understand each other and we can

52:33 Speaker 1: talk and communicate using sounds and noises. That as the

52:38 Speaker 1: human animal evolves, they'll eventually develop some sort of a

52:42 Speaker 1: psychic power.

52:43 Speaker 2: So that in a way that's connected to supposing that

52:49 Speaker 2: those psychic powers already exist to.

52:51 Speaker 1: Some degree, maybe in some people more than others.

52:53 Speaker 2: Right, right, So that means there are white crows, like

52:57 Speaker 2: we've talked about last night. Yeah, okay, he explaining that context,

53:01 Speaker 2: there shouldn't be any white crows. White crows aren't white,

53:05 Speaker 2: so there shouldn't be any anomalies like that. So if

53:07 Speaker 2: you come up against a white crow, you've really found

53:10 Speaker 2: an anomaly. So now the question is why, how how

53:14 Speaker 2: did this happen? Well, it's an albino, right, it's just

53:16 Speaker 2: a genetic So it's a metaphora. Right, So it's a

53:20 Speaker 2: metaphor saying you've really come across something that shouldn't be

53:23 Speaker 2: It shouldn't be, right, there's no way this should happen. Right,

53:27 Speaker 2: And oh my god, shres another one, and it's a cousin.

53:30 Speaker 2: It's different, it's it's in a different area of the

53:33 Speaker 2: of the whole SI basket. What's going on here?

53:36 Speaker 1: Well, we already know that there are extreme variations in intelligence.

53:40 Speaker 1: We know that there's people that are just not that bright,

53:43 Speaker 1: and then there's people like Elon Musk and these people

53:47 Speaker 1: like this, Well he is not from here.

53:49 Speaker 2: Probably he's not from here anyway.

53:51 Speaker 1: Yeah, most likely if there's an alien amongst us, that's right.

53:55 Speaker 1: But I mean, if you go back to Nicola Tesla,

53:56 Speaker 1: it's sort of the same sort of situation. Right. You know,

53:58 Speaker 1: he was clearly of not just superior intelligence, but superior vision.

54:05 Speaker 1: You had this ability to look at things that didn't

54:07 Speaker 1: exist and figure out a way to create them. Right,

54:10 Speaker 1: And that's a very unique thing. And what is causing that?

54:14 Speaker 1: What firing of neurons, What personal experiences combined with education,

54:21 Speaker 1: combined with innate creativity makes a person create something?

54:26 Speaker 2: But that's not as paranormal, No it's not.

54:29 Speaker 1: But it's a different aspect of being a human being. Now,

54:33 Speaker 1: we all know that some people more intuitive than others,

54:35 Speaker 1: some people more sensitive other than others. Some people are

54:38 Speaker 1: better at understanding. Some people are really good at picking

54:42 Speaker 1: out liars, some people are really good at picking out talent.

54:45 Speaker 1: They understand people better. Right as a human As the

54:49 Speaker 1: human animal evolves, we could only surmize that that those

54:54 Speaker 1: types of skills and those types of qualities that a

54:58 Speaker 1: human being can possess could possibly get better if you

55:02 Speaker 1: get two very intuitive people to have a child and

55:04 Speaker 1: the child is even more intuitive than them, And that

55:07 Speaker 1: some aspects, unprovable, unmeasurable aspects of psychic power could be

55:13 Speaker 1: something that's emerging out of the human animal.

55:15 Speaker 2: I would never say never I think a lot is possible.

55:19 Speaker 2: I think what's may more likely would happen because we're

55:24 Speaker 2: shifting now to taking normal human physiology, which is a

55:32 Speaker 2: separate situation from being able to perform things that are

55:42 Speaker 2: more unique than just being creative. So I think that

55:49 Speaker 2: you might have you know, small circuitry and you know,

55:53 Speaker 2: small things that are added to the human brain to

55:59 Speaker 2: enhance this capabilit like neural linked Yeah, and that's much

56:03 Speaker 2: more likely in terms of human evolution than that that

56:10 Speaker 2: you're going that future generations are going to become enormously

56:14 Speaker 2: psychic and enormously cause and effect using consciousness. So whether

56:20 Speaker 2: it's clairvoyance or telepathy, or psychometry, micro macropk, remote viewing,

56:25 Speaker 2: the whole basket, those are all real and they have

56:28 Speaker 2: all world class performers in every one of those things.

56:31 Speaker 2: Remote viewing is a great example of this because we

56:34 Speaker 2: know for twenty years the CIA and the Army had

56:38 Speaker 2: programs in this, and so did the Russians.

56:40 Speaker 1: Right, And we talked about remote viewing last night too,

56:43 Speaker 1: that we I'd done an experiment on a show that

56:45 Speaker 1: I had and it wasn't effective at all, But that

56:49 Speaker 1: could have been that the person that was doing remote

56:51 Speaker 1: viewing was a fraud that maybe there are people that

56:55 Speaker 1: do have that ability. Now has it ever been clearly

56:58 Speaker 1: demonstrated that someone can do that? Yes, personally.

57:02 Speaker 2: Well, I've hired somebody to do it twice for me.

57:05 Speaker 2: But I've also what do they do have friends that

57:08 Speaker 2: ran the programs?

57:09 Speaker 1: What did they do? What the people that you use?

57:11 Speaker 2: I tasked them to to describe a longitude latitude location

57:18 Speaker 2: and describe it, what was the surface, what was underground?

57:23 Speaker 2: Those kinds of things.

57:24 Speaker 1: And they were accurate. Yeah, how accurate?

57:28 Speaker 2: Very accurate, and give me information that to this day

57:32 Speaker 2: I don't know if it's true or not because it

57:34 Speaker 2: was underground information that I don't even know. But it

57:38 Speaker 2: just came in the that came as a hey, here's

57:41 Speaker 2: a bonus. I'll tell you what's what's underneath.

57:43 Speaker 1: So the government had these programs, these secret programs that

57:47 Speaker 1: they were studying remote viewing, but their official conclusion was

57:51 Speaker 1: that it was horseship right. Oh no, wasn't it? Oh gosh,

57:53 Speaker 1: GUYSH know, not in public?

57:56 Speaker 2: No, that was never concluded in that way.

57:59 Speaker 1: And what did they say publicly about remote viewing? Did

58:02 Speaker 1: they ever say it's one hundred percent effective and real.

58:04 Speaker 2: I think there would probably be at a point in time.

58:09 Speaker 2: It was classified for a long time, okay, and then

58:12 Speaker 2: it became more public eventually as a program aged and

58:15 Speaker 2: so forth, as things usually do. To be one hundred percent,

58:22 Speaker 2: you could acquire by having more than one viewer have

58:29 Speaker 2: the same target, you increases the likelihood of the accuracy

58:33 Speaker 2: of the information. One hundred percent is a lot to

58:35 Speaker 2: ask for, because you're getting you're getting a drawing at

58:39 Speaker 2: the same time you're getting conversation, and sometimes the drawings

58:42 Speaker 2: revealed more than the conversations did. So the remote viewer

58:48 Speaker 2: would also be in a position as an experiencer. So

58:53 Speaker 2: if his target, if his or her target was it

58:58 Speaker 2: a certain location that and the person was eating an orange,

59:03 Speaker 2: for example, a remote viewer could almost taste it, could

59:08 Speaker 2: almost hear the gravel that the person was walking on,

59:11 Speaker 2: feel it under their shoes that they're walking.

59:13 Speaker 1: So it's the methodology. How would they go about doing this?

59:16 Speaker 2: So the first of all, the aspect of this is

59:20 Speaker 2: though you're over the person's head that you're so we

59:24 Speaker 2: have to go back and say there are different kinds

59:26 Speaker 2: of remote viewing first of all, So I'm just taking

59:28 Speaker 2: one type where maybe your target is a person and

59:32 Speaker 2: the person is at a location, and maybe the location

59:35 Speaker 2: is a wharf, a boat dock, there are a lot

59:38 Speaker 2: of boats and maybe the gravel pathways getting there. Maybe

59:42 Speaker 2: they're having a fruit in their hands and orange apple, whatever,

59:45 Speaker 2: and so the remote viewer is back above the head,

59:48 Speaker 2: kind of like an out of body experience is the

59:50 Speaker 2: way that those are reported, And you're watching yourself going

59:53 Speaker 2: down we can talk about that later, going down a hallway,

59:57 Speaker 2: but you're above yourself, same way with a remote doing.

1:00:00 Speaker 2: Sometimes they would be in that kind of a position.

1:00:03 Speaker 2: And so did you describe everything in your drawing? Maybe not? Well,

1:00:09 Speaker 2: then you didn't get one hundred percent, did you? But

1:00:11 Speaker 2: you were spot on as to where they were. You

1:00:14 Speaker 2: could go find that location and that's actually where they

1:00:17 Speaker 2: were at that point in time. That was true, that's

1:00:20 Speaker 2: exactly where they were.

1:00:21 Speaker 1: So they were able to figure out where people were

1:00:25 Speaker 1: and they were able to get a sort of an

1:00:26 Speaker 1: understanding of what they were doing and how they were

1:00:29 Speaker 1: doing it and what their surroundings look like.

1:00:31 Speaker 2: That's a tip of the iceberg, the.

1:00:32 Speaker 1: Tip of the iceberg. But what was the methodology? How

1:00:34 Speaker 1: would a person remote view would they be alone in

1:00:37 Speaker 1: a room. Would did they have to achieve a certain

1:00:40 Speaker 1: state of meditation? Like what did they do to do this?

1:00:43 Speaker 2: So they would be in a room and with a

1:00:48 Speaker 2: control per controller I forget the terminology now that they used.

1:00:52 Speaker 2: So viewer would be there at a desk and patent

1:00:55 Speaker 2: paper and and there would be the person sitting a

1:01:00 Speaker 2: us as a controller and then at the appointed time.

1:01:03 Speaker 2: And it depends on how these remote viewing sessions were constructed.

1:01:07 Speaker 2: I think the real people that you should talk to

1:01:10 Speaker 2: or the guys that ran the programs. I'm just you know.

1:01:14 Speaker 1: I talked to Ed Danes. That's the guy that I

1:01:16 Speaker 1: talked to, the only guy I.

1:01:18 Speaker 2: Would recommend people like how put off? He would be

1:01:22 Speaker 2: a very very good person to talk to on this.

1:01:25 Speaker 1: So how would someone learn how to do this? And

1:01:29 Speaker 1: who figured it out initially?

1:01:32 Speaker 2: I don't know who was necessarily the first. You have

1:01:37 Speaker 2: early players like Pat Price, Ango Swan, I think Helen Hammond,

1:01:43 Speaker 2: Joe Matt Monaga, those kinds of folks. And I'm not

1:01:47 Speaker 2: sure the genesis of how it began a lot of

1:01:50 Speaker 2: times things happen by accident, right, and you stumble on

1:01:54 Speaker 2: something and say, oh wow, what is what just happened.

1:01:58 Speaker 1: But it has to be some sort of repeatable skill,

1:02:01 Speaker 1: like something that you could teach someone how to do.

1:02:03 Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, And I believe what I've been told is

1:02:07 Speaker 2: that most people have some degree of abilities that are

1:02:14 Speaker 2: beyond the five senses, and some have more of those

1:02:18 Speaker 2: abilities than other people, and so it can be taught

1:02:25 Speaker 2: and built up and developed. But some people are more

1:02:29 Speaker 2: predisposed to certain kinds of stuff than other people are.

1:02:33 Speaker 1: And so how would they train people to do something

1:02:37 Speaker 1: like this? Who was the first person to figure out

1:02:40 Speaker 1: that they could do it? And then how do they

1:02:42 Speaker 1: train other people to do it?

1:02:44 Speaker 2: Joel mcmonaga has a book. I think he authored it

1:02:47 Speaker 2: back in nineteen ninety three and he had I believe

1:02:52 Speaker 2: a near death experience about nineteen seventy ish seventy. And

1:02:57 Speaker 2: I mean there's a lot of literature out there on

1:03:00 Speaker 2: the shelves that people can buy. They can they can

1:03:02 Speaker 2: get a hold of this stuff without having to talk

1:03:04 Speaker 2: to these fellows and these people, and the stories are

1:03:09 Speaker 2: amazing as to what they can do. So it's and

1:03:13 Speaker 2: purportedly distance is irrelevant. I mean, you could do something

1:03:19 Speaker 2: thousands of miles away and that could be the target

1:03:21 Speaker 2: and you can describe that target. It doesn't have to

1:03:24 Speaker 2: be on the surface. It can be a building, it

1:03:27 Speaker 2: can be inside a building, it can be inside a room.

1:03:31 Speaker 2: I mean, I guess really gets strange.

1:03:33 Speaker 1: And so you have actually experienced this and you are

1:03:36 Speaker 1: one hundred percent on board with remote viewing, you think

1:03:38 Speaker 1: it's really.

1:03:39 Speaker 2: Well, I've experienced it to we we extent. I hired

1:03:42 Speaker 2: a fellow to do it twice.

1:03:45 Speaker 1: But he did it.

1:03:46 Speaker 2: He did it.

1:03:46 Speaker 1: That's not we. That's that's pretty big. The guy did it.

1:03:50 Speaker 2: He did it, And I sat once. I got to

1:03:52 Speaker 2: sit behind a screen on a computer to play around

1:03:57 Speaker 2: a little bit. So I don't have any real experience,

1:04:00 Speaker 2: you know, with this. I just have a lot of

1:04:02 Speaker 2: admiration for the people who manage the programs and who

1:04:05 Speaker 2: can function that that exercise. Mm hmm, it's it's really amazing.

1:04:12 Speaker 2: There's an old story about Ingo Swan. He's passed over, but.

1:04:19 Speaker 1: Say that he don't say he's passed, he's passed over.

1:04:23 Speaker 2: Well, now you know where my thought is about things?

1:04:26 Speaker 1: Well, and I do know where he thought is about things.

1:04:27 Speaker 1: But I just finally I'm want to get to that too.

1:04:30 Speaker 1: But the way you describe and he passed over.

1:04:32 Speaker 2: Oh there's a story I love about Ingo. He's being tested,

1:04:37 Speaker 2: as always happens. You're trying to verify, verify, verify, right,

1:04:40 Speaker 2: trust but verify, verify always, and like you're doing exactly

1:04:44 Speaker 2: what you should be doing is questioning, always questioning it.

1:04:48 Speaker 2: And so he's being tested by officials and they have

1:04:54 Speaker 2: a submarine that, uh, that is his target. He doesn't

1:04:59 Speaker 2: know what his target is as of course, and it

1:05:02 Speaker 2: might even have been a blind or double blind situation.

1:05:05 Speaker 2: I don't know, but they go to a lot of

1:05:08 Speaker 2: efforts so that maybe even the person that's with you

1:05:11 Speaker 2: doesn't know what the target is. That's usually the kind

1:05:13 Speaker 2: of protocols. So and he identifies the sub. He identifies

1:05:20 Speaker 2: the sub accurately, and this is an advanced sub that

1:05:24 Speaker 2: he's identifying, so it's underwater, it's you know, it's deep,

1:05:30 Speaker 2: and he's able to see this thing and describe it.

1:05:33 Speaker 2: So it makes them pretty uneasy, and they're impressed. This

1:05:38 Speaker 2: is like, wow, this is a big deal this guy.

1:05:42 Speaker 2: So it's not like just how is he doing this,

1:05:44 Speaker 2: It's like he did this. So they're calling the meeting

1:05:48 Speaker 2: kind of to a close. He says, well, don't you

1:05:53 Speaker 2: want to know what's following it? Duh, right, see he's

1:05:59 Speaker 2: just then he starts describing this other craft that's following

1:06:03 Speaker 2: behind the sub wing. NGO was an amazing guy. I

1:06:07 Speaker 2: got always the other craft. I guess it was some

1:06:11 Speaker 2: kind of UFO something else that wasn't another sub you know,

1:06:15 Speaker 2: of ours or Russians or anybody.

1:06:17 Speaker 1: That's one of the speculations about unidentified flying objects is

1:06:22 Speaker 1: that they're not just flying, that some of them actually

1:06:25 Speaker 1: exist underwater. There's been many sightings of things that went

1:06:27 Speaker 1: into the ocean. Yeah, oh yeah, what do you think

1:06:30 Speaker 1: of that? Well, I mean, you know, suppose they didn't.

1:06:33 Speaker 1: Aren't there stories even about Christopher Columbus crew and so

1:06:36 Speaker 1: forth seeing things going back for centuries, things coming in

1:06:40 Speaker 1: and all the water. Well, that was part of the

1:06:42 Speaker 1: tic TAC, the cander David Favor's encounter, that there was

1:06:46 Speaker 1: something below the surface of the water that was creating

1:06:48 Speaker 1: a wake almost like rocks.

1:06:50 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was churning.

1:06:52 Speaker 1: It was a very large thing, and that it went

1:06:55 Speaker 1: under as they approached and the tic TAC craft face them,

1:07:01 Speaker 1: and that you know, they don't know to this day

1:07:03 Speaker 1: what that thing was that was under the surface, but

1:07:05 Speaker 1: that's what led them to go and investigate in the

1:07:08 Speaker 1: first place. And as they were going towards it, that's

1:07:10 Speaker 1: when they realized that there's this thing like, you know,

1:07:14 Speaker 1: roughly the size of this room.

1:07:16 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, in that carrier group was a ship or

1:07:20 Speaker 2: two that was bristling with electronics equipment, and it's the

1:07:26 Speaker 2: first thing that sensed something out there. And that's that's

1:07:30 Speaker 2: when I my understanding was, and I'm going back a

1:07:33 Speaker 2: long time now, was that that's when they were launched

1:07:37 Speaker 2: to go check it out because what was out there

1:07:39 Speaker 2: shouldn't be out there and behaving the way it was

1:07:41 Speaker 2: behaving according to all the electronics on this ship that

1:07:44 Speaker 2: was part of the battle group, you know, with the

1:07:47 Speaker 2: aircraft carrier, I think a couple of subs that was

1:07:50 Speaker 2: a battle group and so and then they had target now, right,

1:07:59 Speaker 2: so they're able to see firsthand for themselves what's going on.

1:08:03 Speaker 1: Yeah, And when they were speaking over the mic, they

1:08:06 Speaker 1: they had found out that they had been encountering these

1:08:08 Speaker 1: things over the last because when Commander Favor was inquiring, like,

1:08:12 Speaker 1: what the hell is this, then the other end was saying, look,

1:08:15 Speaker 1: we've been seeing these things over the last few weeks.

1:08:18 Speaker 1: No one knows what it is. Yeah, but like, what

1:08:21 Speaker 1: do you do about that? What do you think?

1:08:22 Speaker 2: Sometimes better left alone? If you know they're really behaving

1:08:28 Speaker 2: fantastically and they're not the Russians or Chinese or whatever,

1:08:32 Speaker 2: go have a sandwich, forget about it.

1:08:35 Speaker 1: I don't think they had a choice. I mean, you

1:08:37 Speaker 1: can't catch it. It's literally jamming your radar. You have

1:08:41 Speaker 1: images of it, and you know you're tracking it, and

1:08:44 Speaker 1: they're moving in a way that is literally impossible with

1:08:47 Speaker 1: our technology. What do you do? You can't do anything?

1:08:51 Speaker 1: What are you going to go to war with it?

1:08:52 Speaker 1: What are you gonna do?

1:08:54 Speaker 2: And it's not like it's it's not like it's offensive.

1:08:57 Speaker 2: It hasn't tried to attack you or do anything nothing.

1:09:00 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a very strange situation to be in, to be,

1:09:04 Speaker 1: you know, the a fighter pilot with the most sophisticated

1:09:08 Speaker 1: military equipment and to encounter something that is beyond the

1:09:11 Speaker 1: scope of even imagination of what's possible. Right, Yeah, you had, uh,

1:09:21 Speaker 1: you had encounters with Bob Lazar. You you know Bob

1:09:24 Speaker 1: and you you were around when Bob Lazar first.

1:09:29 Speaker 2: Uh, Now is this going to be all about the

1:09:31 Speaker 2: mylar balloon event.

1:09:33 Speaker 1: What's the mylar balloon event?

1:09:34 Speaker 2: Oh, you don't know that one. No, So we all

1:09:39 Speaker 2: jump in my car to go out to the alien

1:09:43 Speaker 2: in area out there, you know, on the alien in

1:09:47 Speaker 2: that out there.

1:09:48 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like a north bar or something for a.

1:09:51 Speaker 2: North of that area. And so so Bob Blazaar, George Knapp, myself,

1:09:59 Speaker 2: and I think Gene Huff, who is Bob's friend, we

1:10:02 Speaker 2: all go out there. Well, I'm being known to me.

1:10:05 Speaker 2: Bob has a mylar balloon which really bounces their DAR

1:10:09 Speaker 2: signature a lot for its size, and a bottle of

1:10:14 Speaker 2: gas helium. So we find our way back out in

1:10:21 Speaker 2: the desert. Out there, we're kind of I'm thinking we're

1:10:23 Speaker 2: on a UFO watch, which is always fun. Sometimes the

1:10:28 Speaker 2: best thing is the food you take along, right, and

1:10:31 Speaker 2: you're out there under the stars and it's nice and

1:10:33 Speaker 2: you have a good time just watch it. So, but

1:10:38 Speaker 2: there's a rustle of things going on here, and next

1:10:41 Speaker 2: thing I know, there's a balloon. This mylar balloon's inflated

1:10:45 Speaker 2: and there's a slight breeze and Bob lets it go

1:10:49 Speaker 2: and we're on the opposite side of the mountain range

1:10:51 Speaker 2: from supposedly ask four and he wants he wants to

1:10:55 Speaker 2: go that way. Thank god, the wind's going in the

1:11:00 Speaker 2: opposite direction. It was traveling north instead of south, and

1:11:03 Speaker 2: it went the wrong way. You know. So I'm thinking,

1:11:06 Speaker 2: my life's just passed before my eyes.

1:11:08 Speaker 1: Why do you think you'll life passed before your eyes?

1:11:09 Speaker 1: Because if he doesn't go towards areas for it's going

1:11:12 Speaker 1: to get picked up. Yeah, they're gonna go find out

1:11:14 Speaker 1: where it came from.

1:11:14 Speaker 2: Wackenhut security is going to come get us. I'm going

1:11:17 Speaker 2: to spend the night in jail, right so, you know,

1:11:21 Speaker 2: it all just unraveled real quick.

1:11:23 Speaker 1: And was this before Bob had gotten in trouble for

1:11:25 Speaker 1: bringing people to the observation point to watch, Because let's

1:11:29 Speaker 1: let's tell a story about Bob real quick. Bob said

1:11:31 Speaker 1: he worked for Area S four and he was hired

1:11:34 Speaker 1: to back engineer what they believe we're alien crafts. Along

1:11:39 Speaker 1: the lines he had this top secret clearance and along

1:11:41 Speaker 1: the lines of all this happening, they're monitoring his phone calls.

1:11:45 Speaker 1: Turns out Bob's wife is having an affair. Bob doesn't

1:11:48 Speaker 1: know about this. They remove him from the project because

1:11:51 Speaker 1: they believe he'll be emotionally unstable. If he's so, he's

1:11:54 Speaker 1: he's freaking out, not knowing a that his wife is

1:11:57 Speaker 1: having an affair and not knowing why he is pulled

1:11:59 Speaker 1: from this project, doesn't totally understand, so starts telling people

1:12:03 Speaker 1: about what he's doing and telling people listen, I can

1:12:05 Speaker 1: take you to a place where once a week they

1:12:07 Speaker 1: do these tests. So he starts bringing people to this

1:12:10 Speaker 1: area they see these objects flying in these spectacular ways

1:12:16 Speaker 1: that we really can't do with any of our conventional aircrafts.

1:12:19 Speaker 1: And then Bob gets in trouble for that. And then

1:12:21 Speaker 1: Bob goes on the George Knapshow and starts explaining all

1:12:25 Speaker 1: these different things, presumably for self preservation, because the best

1:12:30 Speaker 1: way to probably protect your own life is to go

1:12:34 Speaker 1: public with this and explain everything that's happening. And they

1:12:36 Speaker 1: can discredit you and make you look very good nut,

1:12:38 Speaker 1: but if they kill you, then you know, then it

1:12:41 Speaker 1: leads credence to your story.

1:12:44 Speaker 2: Yeah, it gives you a very huge hardship.

1:12:46 Speaker 1: So when do you fall into the story.

1:12:50 Speaker 2: Well, you've just given me an overload of information now

1:12:52 Speaker 2: that I'm pretty much aware of, but I don't know

1:12:55 Speaker 2: exactly when I don't think, as I recall it, everybody

1:13:01 Speaker 2: was pretty much at ease, and I wasn't. It wasn't

1:13:05 Speaker 2: part of.

1:13:06 Speaker 1: When years this that this is all going on.

1:13:08 Speaker 2: Oh god, I don't know ninety one.

1:13:12 Speaker 1: So this is around that time. This is around on

1:13:16 Speaker 1: George Knapp's.

1:13:16 Speaker 2: Show, somewhere in that time frame. But I wasn't aware

1:13:20 Speaker 2: of of a lot until much until I don't think

1:13:23 Speaker 2: at that time I was aware of him taking people

1:13:25 Speaker 2: out on you know, Wednesday nights to go see something

1:13:29 Speaker 2: out there. I kind of missed out on that or whatever,

1:13:32 Speaker 2: And I don't think this was anything like connected to that.

1:13:36 Speaker 1: I think that that was before this. Yeah, probably that was.

1:13:40 Speaker 1: I think you're dealing with him out after you know,

1:13:43 Speaker 1: he had met George and after he had told his story. Yeah,

1:13:46 Speaker 1: because George is with you. Oh yeah, yeah, so obviously

1:13:49 Speaker 1: they had already met. Sure, so what was your initial Obviously,

1:13:55 Speaker 1: your person that has a deep fascination with UFOs. Now

1:13:58 Speaker 1: here you are talking to this guy who's clearly a genius,

1:14:01 Speaker 1: brilliant guy, Bob Azar, and he's telling you this fucking

1:14:05 Speaker 1: bananas story. He's out there back engineering spacecrafts. They came

1:14:10 Speaker 1: from another land that are using this element one point fifteen.

1:14:16 Speaker 1: This stuff that's just a theoretical element that wasn't even

1:14:18 Speaker 1: proven by particle collider until what twenty thirteen somewhere along

1:14:23 Speaker 1: that line. It was just theoretical up to that point.

1:14:25 Speaker 1: So he's telling you about all this stuff. What was

1:14:27 Speaker 1: your What did you think?

1:14:31 Speaker 2: I wanted to reserve judgment until I knew a lot more.

1:14:37 Speaker 2: And the more he talked, the more interesting it became.

1:14:44 Speaker 2: The more research that George did, things that he uncovered,

1:14:47 Speaker 2: it became more interesting. And so, as I said a

1:14:55 Speaker 2: while back, I think George was doing an interview with me,

1:14:57 Speaker 2: and I said, I wouldn't bet against Bob's the truth

1:15:02 Speaker 2: of the majority of everything that Bob has said. I

1:15:05 Speaker 2: wouldn't bet against it. Could they be Arizona missions for

1:15:09 Speaker 2: different reasons, Yeah, sure they could, But that the uh

1:15:16 Speaker 2: I I would tend to say Bob is legitimate, and

1:15:24 Speaker 2: you know, I don't. There's certain aspects of things that

1:15:28 Speaker 2: are parts of stories that you wonder, well, how could

1:15:31 Speaker 2: this happen? And so forth. But I think if you

1:15:33 Speaker 2: if you take all of the collective information and the

1:15:36 Speaker 2: work that George Knapp has done to validate things, it's

1:15:41 Speaker 2: awfully damn impressive.

1:15:43 Speaker 1: But George is such an important part of it because

1:15:45 Speaker 1: he's a legitimate investigative journalist and that was his career,

1:15:48 Speaker 1: and so he poured himself into this oh yeah, and

1:15:53 Speaker 1: exposed all the different aspects of this story that seemed

1:15:58 Speaker 1: to indicate that he said on the truth. Oh yes, yeah,

1:16:01 Speaker 1: And that's that's what's crazy about it.

1:16:03 Speaker 2: And George is not any normal journalist. He is he's

1:16:07 Speaker 2: like what he has like six peabodies.

1:16:09 Speaker 1: Yes, he's fantastic. So he's diving into this and the

1:16:12 Speaker 1: more he uncovers, the more it seems like Bob bobblesar

1:16:15 Speaker 1: story is legitimate, right right?

1:16:18 Speaker 2: So I think until you, I like the philosophy of

1:16:22 Speaker 2: reserving judgment, until you have a preponderance of evidence that

1:16:27 Speaker 2: it really moves you one way or another. You don't

1:16:29 Speaker 2: have to have one hundred percent. I go by reasonable doubt.

1:16:33 Speaker 1: But what was it like for you to be this

1:16:34 Speaker 1: guy who's had this deep fascination with flying saucers and

1:16:39 Speaker 1: here you are talk like, let me tell you my

1:16:41 Speaker 1: experience with Bob doing this podcast with Bob, I wanted

1:16:44 Speaker 1: one of two things. I wanted to go, oh, this

1:16:46 Speaker 1: guy's full of shit. Or I wanted whoa this guy's

1:16:51 Speaker 1: It seems like he's not full of shit. I think

1:16:53 Speaker 1: he's telling the truth. I think this guy really did

1:16:57 Speaker 1: encounter these aircrafts and really did work on these spaceships,

1:17:01 Speaker 1: whatever they are. That's where I'm at right now. My

1:17:04 Speaker 1: experience with him, my communication with him, he didn't seem

1:17:07 Speaker 1: like it's full shit at all. He's clearly a brilliant guy.

1:17:10 Speaker 1: His story has not changed at all over the thirty

1:17:14 Speaker 1: plus years that he's been saying it. It's a crazy story,

1:17:18 Speaker 1: but when you are a person like yourself, you sa

1:17:23 Speaker 1: me even more than I, who is obsessed with this subject,

1:17:28 Speaker 1: the possibility of alien life that's visited this earth and

1:17:32 Speaker 1: maybe even left crafts behind. And maybe these crafts are

1:17:36 Speaker 1: in the possession of some secret government agencies that are

1:17:40 Speaker 1: trying to observe them and back engineer them. What is

1:17:43 Speaker 1: it like to talk to this guy, to this because

1:17:45 Speaker 1: this guy has seen the thing you're looking for. This guy,

1:17:48 Speaker 1: all you're searching and all of your wondering and staring

1:17:52 Speaker 1: out into the heavens, and here's a guy that has

1:17:55 Speaker 1: actually touched it, actually worked on it, been inside one

1:17:59 Speaker 1: try to figure out how they work, can't do it,

1:18:01 Speaker 1: doesn't understand it. It's talking to these people. Everything's compartmentalized.

1:18:05 Speaker 1: You've got the metallurgist people that are working on what

1:18:08 Speaker 1: kind of alloy this thing is made of. You got

1:18:10 Speaker 1: him who's a part of the people that are trying

1:18:12 Speaker 1: to understand the propulsion system. And then you've got people

1:18:16 Speaker 1: that are giving you this information that like maybe they

1:18:19 Speaker 1: have been here forever, maybe this is a part of

1:18:23 Speaker 1: an archaeological dig. Maybe they've been trying to study these

1:18:26 Speaker 1: things for decades with no advancement at all.

1:18:30 Speaker 2: Yeah, So we came across, or myself and a couple

1:18:37 Speaker 2: other people came across folks who could collaborate some of

1:18:41 Speaker 2: the things going on out there, such as silent craft

1:18:47 Speaker 2: actually lifting off at night time, not looking as though

1:18:54 Speaker 2: the control was very good, but actually lifting off maneuvering

1:19:00 Speaker 2: like a really small trial kind of thing, and that

1:19:04 Speaker 2: fellow observed it from a distance where he wasn't supposed

1:19:08 Speaker 2: to be. George has come up with collaboration, i think

1:19:12 Speaker 2: from two or three other sources. Also, besides what Bob

1:19:15 Speaker 2: said about certain aspects of things out there, it's just

1:19:19 Speaker 2: that Bob's story is so much more in depth, so

1:19:23 Speaker 2: much more detailed, like that book that he talked about

1:19:28 Speaker 2: years ago, coming across amazing things.

1:19:33 Speaker 1: So tell people about the book.

1:19:35 Speaker 2: Well, there was a there was a book, as I remember,

1:19:38 Speaker 2: there was some kind of a book that Bob was

1:19:44 Speaker 2: allowed to look through or he actually or he sees

1:19:48 Speaker 2: the opportunity to do it when he was in a

1:19:51 Speaker 2: room where the book was. But I think that was

1:19:53 Speaker 2: by design, and it was some kind of a holographic

1:19:57 Speaker 2: book that as you opened up the pages, whatever the

1:20:01 Speaker 2: stories were, became a hologram. That's my recollection of a

1:20:05 Speaker 2: conversation that's decades old now. So you know, if I

1:20:12 Speaker 2: got it wrong, fire me, it's you know, it's you'll

1:20:16 Speaker 2: have to talk to Bob about that, would you, or

1:20:18 Speaker 2: talk to George. And because I remember something like that,

1:20:22 Speaker 2: I mean that was like wow, what an amazing way

1:20:26 Speaker 2: to portray information in some kind of a book and

1:20:30 Speaker 2: actually have holographic images coming forth out of the you know,

1:20:35 Speaker 2: I don't know. It just was so that I haven't

1:20:39 Speaker 2: ever heard of that being repeated any place in terms

1:20:43 Speaker 2: of something else like that happening. And so much that

1:20:49 Speaker 2: happened to Bob. It was so unique.

1:20:51 Speaker 1: There was also some very strange summary of what they

1:20:55 Speaker 1: understand or what they believe to be true about the

1:21:00 Speaker 1: origins of human beings, and that they believe that what

1:21:05 Speaker 1: these visitations were about was that human beings are the

1:21:08 Speaker 1: product of accelerated evolution, and that these species from wherever

1:21:13 Speaker 1: had been coming here and doing genetic experience experiments with

1:21:17 Speaker 1: primates and created human beings, which is the ultimate like

1:21:23 Speaker 1: who knows, Like, wow, that's fun to think about. But

1:21:26 Speaker 1: we were talking about this last night, like how bizarre

1:21:29 Speaker 1: humans are that? Add all these things on Earth? Were

1:21:32 Speaker 1: the only ones with shoes? Are all these things were

1:21:35 Speaker 1: the only ones that'd have to wear clothes. We're the

1:21:37 Speaker 1: only ones would jump into metal boxes with rubber tires

1:21:41 Speaker 1: and roll around these hard surfaces that we created, or

1:21:44 Speaker 1: fly in planes or send video through your phone to

1:21:47 Speaker 1: other people that are on the other side of the continent.

1:21:49 Speaker 1: We're weird. We're real weird. We're way weirder than anything

1:21:52 Speaker 1: else that exists. And if we are really a product

1:21:57 Speaker 1: of some sort of accelerated process like that, this is

1:22:02 Speaker 1: how they get the party started. On these planets, they

1:22:05 Speaker 1: find semi intelligent, curious animals that are using tools or

1:22:09 Speaker 1: using you know, opposable thumbs, and they do some things

1:22:15 Speaker 1: to them. Yeah.

1:22:18 Speaker 2: They There's a large variety of of potential beginnings, more

1:22:30 Speaker 2: evidence for some than others. Right, So that's that's always

1:22:34 Speaker 2: the trick.

1:22:35 Speaker 1: Have you considered that is like a subject that you've

1:22:38 Speaker 1: deeply considered and thought about?

1:22:42 Speaker 2: Really? Really, I'm here, I don't want to look at

1:22:46 Speaker 2: gift horset in the face. I'll take it for what

1:22:48 Speaker 2: it is, you know, really, Yeah, I mean.

1:22:53 Speaker 1: I think about it a lot.

1:22:54 Speaker 2: I don't know. I think I need more more evidence

1:22:59 Speaker 2: to be more curious about. I'm more concerned about other

1:23:03 Speaker 2: kinds of things that are now than where do the

1:23:06 Speaker 2: human species come from? Particularly? I'm more driven by other

1:23:10 Speaker 2: kinds of things that could make a difference today.

1:23:13 Speaker 1: Going forward, So getting back to the Bobo Zart thing,

1:23:17 Speaker 1: when you first got to know him, when you first

1:23:19 Speaker 1: were considering this story and how crazy it was. What

1:23:22 Speaker 1: was it like to meet a guy who, at least

1:23:27 Speaker 1: by his own accounts, had encountered this thing that you

1:23:30 Speaker 1: were seeking.

1:23:32 Speaker 2: Well, Bob's a likable guy. As you said, he's very smart,

1:23:37 Speaker 2: and so he's interesting to talk to, right, Yeah, And

1:23:42 Speaker 2: so that's more than just entertaining to listen to his

1:23:46 Speaker 2: story is profound, right, and so it gives you an

1:23:50 Speaker 2: awful lot to think about and to try to to

1:23:55 Speaker 2: position as to how can you measure future information you

1:23:59 Speaker 2: might against that story, how can you verify different kinds

1:24:03 Speaker 2: of things? And so I've heard a lot more silly things.

1:24:11 Speaker 2: I think then what Bob was talking about didn't seem

1:24:16 Speaker 2: all that ridiculous. And then the more you get to

1:24:21 Speaker 2: talk to him, the more you get to know him,

1:24:23 Speaker 2: and people like George who's an investigative journalist, it gets

1:24:29 Speaker 2: more and more. Wow.

1:24:32 Speaker 1: Yeah, if there's like one thing that I could know

1:24:38 Speaker 1: about on this earth involving human beings, I think that's

1:24:42 Speaker 1: the thing. There's a lot of things I'd like to know.

1:24:44 Speaker 1: Who killed Kennedy. I'd like to know. There's like a

1:24:47 Speaker 1: lot of things I'd like to know. But whether or

1:24:49 Speaker 1: not that's real. To be in that hangar and see

1:24:53 Speaker 1: that ship and to go walk through it with him

1:24:58 Speaker 1: and to really understand that this is from here, I

1:25:02 Speaker 1: think that would be the that would be the one and.

1:25:04 Speaker 2: Have crash has been intentional.

1:25:07 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a weird one to me. We were discussing

1:25:09 Speaker 1: that last night. The problem with that is There's also

1:25:13 Speaker 1: this discussion of alien bodies. If crashes have been intentional,

1:25:16 Speaker 1: what do you have suicide bombers just for our own edification?

1:25:20 Speaker 1: That seems silly and that's really disheartening to think that

1:25:23 Speaker 1: someone could come here from another galaxy and still get

1:25:26 Speaker 1: tripped up by lightning.

1:25:27 Speaker 2: Yeah, but maybe they're just anthropomorphic that they're you know,

1:25:29 Speaker 2: maybe they're more robotic, and uh.

1:25:33 Speaker 1: Maybe that's our future.

1:25:34 Speaker 2: At what point does a specie have to have a

1:25:39 Speaker 2: spirit or a soul? I mean, does it could a

1:25:41 Speaker 2: machine even if it's very advanced and can think better

1:25:44 Speaker 2: than we can think, and calculate faster and actually understands fear,

1:25:50 Speaker 2: love passions, does it would it ever evolve to having

1:25:55 Speaker 2: a soul or a spirit? So, I mean, that's a

1:25:58 Speaker 2: really that's that's a good question. Yeah, it's different kind

1:26:00 Speaker 2: of it.

1:26:01 Speaker 1: It's also a good question is to are those things

1:26:03 Speaker 1: imperative for life? Like when we think of ego, when

1:26:06 Speaker 1: we think of our mating instincts and all the various

1:26:12 Speaker 1: pleasant and unpleasant aspects of being a human being, how

1:26:15 Speaker 1: many of them are impediments to growth and progress? I mean,

1:26:19 Speaker 1: what is growth in progress? Right? Are we trying to

1:26:22 Speaker 1: achieve mastery of the elements and of life. Are we

1:26:26 Speaker 1: trying to keep peace? Are we trying to make things

1:26:32 Speaker 1: better but stay human? Like? What are we trying to do?

1:26:35 Speaker 1: Because when we talk about artificial life, it's just artificial

1:26:40 Speaker 1: in terms of the fact that another life form has

1:26:44 Speaker 1: created it. But if they figure out a way that

1:26:47 Speaker 1: you've seen x Machina that movie, No you haven't, how

1:26:51 Speaker 1: dare you? How dare you go out see it right now?

1:26:53 Speaker 2: Hey, I'm living in the desert.

1:26:54 Speaker 1: Well, listen, they have movies in the desert. I've been

1:26:56 Speaker 1: in the desert. It's a great movie, fantastic movie, one

1:26:59 Speaker 1: of my fas or it's ever and it is about

1:27:02 Speaker 1: this super genius guy who develops these artificially intelligent humanoids,

1:27:07 Speaker 1: and it's there's a lot of, you know, suspension of

1:27:13 Speaker 1: disbelief when you're watching a science fiction movie that takes

1:27:16 Speaker 1: place in you know, modern era that has robots that

1:27:19 Speaker 1: look exactly like people and have emotions and thoughts and stuff.

1:27:22 Speaker 1: But it makes you wonder, how far away are we

1:27:26 Speaker 1: from something like that, some super intelligent thing that we

1:27:29 Speaker 1: create ourselves and then it can create other super intelligent things.

1:27:33 Speaker 1: I mean, are we fifty years, Are we one hundred years?

1:27:36 Speaker 1: When when is that going to happen? And is that

1:27:38 Speaker 1: going to happen? Or are we going to become some

1:27:40 Speaker 1: sort of symbiotic creation. Are we going to merge with

1:27:45 Speaker 1: technology instead of create some sort of technological being? Are

1:27:50 Speaker 1: we going to become one? And that's one of the

1:27:52 Speaker 1: things that I've always been very curious about. When it

1:27:55 Speaker 1: comes to these aliens, these iconic aliens that people experience,

1:28:02 Speaker 1: they always seem like what we will look like in

1:28:05 Speaker 1: the future. If you look at a chimpanzee or a gorilla,

1:28:10 Speaker 1: they're much more muscular than human beings, are much stronger,

1:28:13 Speaker 1: they're covered in hair, and they have smaller heads. And

1:28:17 Speaker 1: then our heads are bigger, our bodies are smaller, We're

1:28:20 Speaker 1: weaker and softer. And then if you continue to move

1:28:25 Speaker 1: forward and we advance and evolve and eliminate all like

1:28:30 Speaker 1: a lot of the problems that human beings experience, whether

1:28:32 Speaker 1: it's because of war or crime or all these different

1:28:35 Speaker 1: things that trip us up as a society and as

1:28:38 Speaker 1: a culture. These things are all connected to the tribalism

1:28:43 Speaker 1: and biology and emotions and the desire to sexually procreate.

1:28:49 Speaker 1: If they eliminate all of those things with technology over time,

1:28:54 Speaker 1: and you get these genital less aliens that have these

1:28:59 Speaker 1: enormous heads and that don't communicate with mouth noises anymore.

1:29:03 Speaker 1: They communicate with thoughts, and they don't have the need

1:29:07 Speaker 1: for physical strength anymore. So they're bodies of these tiny

1:29:10 Speaker 1: childlike things, but they have godlike powers. Is that our future?

1:29:14 Speaker 2: So is there a pre prerequisite in all of that

1:29:19 Speaker 2: for the reptilian brainstem to be eliminated? Is there the

1:29:26 Speaker 2: potential for in either inanimate objects or combination biological material

1:29:41 Speaker 2: android type of objects to have consciousness? And what is

1:29:50 Speaker 2: it to be human in the first place? Well, if

1:29:55 Speaker 2: you have bred out or artificially created something that is

1:30:04 Speaker 2: close to whatever perfect might be, as opposed to a

1:30:08 Speaker 2: human being that's very imperfect. A very human being has

1:30:13 Speaker 2: all kinds of imperfections, all kinds of emotional imperfections, and

1:30:19 Speaker 2: capabilities that you know, go from here to here. And

1:30:24 Speaker 2: so that is what it's like to be human being.

1:30:28 Speaker 2: We are very imperfect, and so we're in a we're

1:30:33 Speaker 2: in a class by ourselves. Now you introduce something else,

1:30:40 Speaker 2: maybe our consciousness is unique to being a human being,

1:30:47 Speaker 2: and it's not possible to actually evolve consciousness in an

1:30:52 Speaker 2: artificial mechanism. So and I you know, consciousness and thought

1:30:58 Speaker 2: are two different kinds of things, like mind and brain

1:31:01 Speaker 2: are two different kinds of things. So consciousness, to me

1:31:05 Speaker 2: is is a force by like we just saw colignia,

1:31:15 Speaker 2: whether you think it's real or not. But there are

1:31:17 Speaker 2: many other demonstrations of being able to use consciousness attention

1:31:21 Speaker 2: as a force upon something to either gather information you

1:31:25 Speaker 2: shouldn't be gathering from remote viewing or moving an object.

1:31:28 Speaker 2: You know, it's a different kind of force. Thought is

1:31:32 Speaker 2: a creative mechanism, So and thought can come to promoting

1:31:41 Speaker 2: the force, promoting, in other words, to channel the conscious effort.

1:31:46 Speaker 2: I don't mean to be getting off the topic, but

1:31:48 Speaker 2: I think okay. So then it comes down to even

1:31:54 Speaker 2: if this were, even if you did create those kinds

1:31:57 Speaker 2: of advanced beings, whatever, why did you do it? Why?

1:32:06 Speaker 2: You know, is perfection that important? I mean, does everything

1:32:12 Speaker 2: have to be perfect? Or isn't there some beauty and

1:32:15 Speaker 2: having some imperfections.

1:32:18 Speaker 1: Well, here's the question. All of the human elements that

1:32:22 Speaker 1: we talked about, whether they're emotions or the desire to

1:32:27 Speaker 1: procreate sexually, or jealousy and rage and territorial behavior, tribalism,

1:32:38 Speaker 1: all the awful and great things about human beings, ego,

1:32:42 Speaker 1: all those things lead people to want to do things

1:32:46 Speaker 1: to get recognized, to get attention, and they also want

1:32:51 Speaker 1: to get recognized for their achievements, and they also want

1:32:54 Speaker 1: to push things past the boundaries that have been established

1:32:58 Speaker 1: by other people that are in the same bus business,

1:33:00 Speaker 1: are the same creative venture as them. Whether it's artificial intelligence,

1:33:04 Speaker 1: or whether it's art or creativity or music or anything

1:33:07 Speaker 1: that people do, they were always piggybacking on the work

1:33:11 Speaker 1: of the people that came before them. It's part of

1:33:13 Speaker 1: being a person with everything, with architecture, with technology, everything

1:33:18 Speaker 1: is piggybacking on the work before it. And these things

1:33:22 Speaker 1: are motivated by these very imperfect aspects of being a person,

1:33:27 Speaker 1: by ego, by the desire to be loved, by all

1:33:31 Speaker 1: these these and even by the positive things, by curiosity,

1:33:35 Speaker 1: by creativity, all this soup of influences are all making

1:33:41 Speaker 1: people advance technology and innovate that if you just extrapolate,

1:33:47 Speaker 1: if you just look at what technology is, and if

1:33:51 Speaker 1: you look at what we're doing, if you look if

1:33:53 Speaker 1: you were from another planet and you had no idea

1:33:55 Speaker 1: about human culture. You had no idea and you had

1:33:58 Speaker 1: no no familiarity to the human form and to what

1:34:03 Speaker 1: our life is like down here. And you looked at us,

1:34:05 Speaker 1: you would say, well, what is this species doing? What

1:34:09 Speaker 1: are they doing? Well, I'll tell you what they're doing.

1:34:10 Speaker 1: They're making stuff, and they're making better stuff every year.

1:34:13 Speaker 1: That's what the species does. What do bees do? They

1:34:16 Speaker 1: make beehives, they make honey, But they do the same

1:34:18 Speaker 1: shit every year. Human beings don't. They need a new

1:34:20 Speaker 1: goddamn phone every year. The TVs get bigger, the cars

1:34:23 Speaker 1: get faster. Everything they do is better. The computers have

1:34:26 Speaker 1: more terabytes of hard drive, Their processors work quicker, the

1:34:30 Speaker 1: video cards are better. Everything's better. No one's settling for

1:34:33 Speaker 1: less good. Everybody wants better, and they want better constantly,

1:34:37 Speaker 1: and they want to show their friends. It's part of

1:34:39 Speaker 1: being attractive. Look look at Johnny. He's got the new car,

1:34:44 Speaker 1: he's got the new phone, she's got the new watch.

1:34:47 Speaker 1: You've got the new Oculus rift headsets, you got this

1:34:50 Speaker 1: and that. We make technology. It's our primary thing. We work.

1:34:54 Speaker 1: We get ourselves together like human batteries, and we generate

1:34:58 Speaker 1: income and revenue. And we're all obsessed with making or

1:35:03 Speaker 1: buying better stuff. That's what we do. Now what does

1:35:07 Speaker 1: that mean ultimately, Well, it means technology. Technology is the

1:35:11 Speaker 1: pinnacle of human achievement. It's the stuff that puts us

1:35:14 Speaker 1: into space. It's the stuff that allows us to videotape things.

1:35:18 Speaker 1: It's stuff that allows us to essentially capture time. You

1:35:21 Speaker 1: can capture time in a phone and play it back

1:35:23 Speaker 1: to people. This is when I showed Jeremy this thing.

1:35:26 Speaker 1: We both laughed. Haha. Look you can laugh too, you

1:35:28 Speaker 1: could laugh at our memory. That's what it's doing. Well,

1:35:31 Speaker 1: we're gonna get better at that. It's gonna keep getting

1:35:33 Speaker 1: better and better and better. Well, where does that lead to.

1:35:36 Speaker 1: It leads to some sort of singularity. It leads to

1:35:39 Speaker 1: some sort of a paradigm shifting invention where all of

1:35:45 Speaker 1: these technologies piggyback onto themselves until we reach some sort

1:35:49 Speaker 1: of pinnacle of human achievement. And I think that's probably

1:35:53 Speaker 1: going to be some kind of artificial life or some

1:35:56 Speaker 1: sort of a symbiotic relationship with technology where literally, instead

1:36:01 Speaker 1: of carrying around like a phone like a baby that

1:36:04 Speaker 1: you don't want to leave behind, it's going to be

1:36:06 Speaker 1: in your body.

1:36:09 Speaker 2: I don't think it's enough, and I don't think it's

1:36:12 Speaker 2: all together better.

1:36:14 Speaker 1: I don't think it's all together better either, but I

1:36:15 Speaker 1: think it's going that way.

1:36:16 Speaker 2: I think you've got half the coin half the coin. Yeah,

1:36:20 Speaker 2: what's you're missing the other side?

1:36:21 Speaker 1: What's the other side?

1:36:22 Speaker 2: Okay, So, so you've built this societal empire of technological.

1:36:28 Speaker 1: Achievements, right, that's where we have now, right.

1:36:31 Speaker 2: Well, and who knows in fifty years or one hundred

1:36:34 Speaker 2: and fifty years whatever. Okay, I think you've just described

1:36:41 Speaker 2: an infrastructure for a serious problem coming.

1:36:45 Speaker 1: Yeah.

1:36:48 Speaker 2: What if you were to create a graph and on

1:36:53 Speaker 2: the graph were just two things, two lines, and you

1:36:57 Speaker 2: were tracking over the last one hundred and fifty years

1:37:01 Speaker 2: spiritual maturity among the species. Twentieth century was the worst

1:37:07 Speaker 2: annihilation of people, sixty million people in ever in terms

1:37:11 Speaker 2: of numbers wars. Right, what if you were to track

1:37:16 Speaker 2: in that same graph the progress of technology, Well, you'd

1:37:21 Speaker 2: have one vertical line and this technological line in the

1:37:25 Speaker 2: twentieth century and now, and it would probably be segmented,

1:37:30 Speaker 2: which I mean is jumping. It's going faster than arithmetic

1:37:35 Speaker 2: progression or any normal progression is jumping. So it might

1:37:41 Speaker 2: be at a two four eight sixteen thirty two situation.

1:37:46 Speaker 2: Now you look at the spirituality line, it's practically flat lined.

1:37:52 Speaker 2: So what's the consequences of that?

1:37:54 Speaker 1: Eventually, what do you mean by the spirituality?

1:38:01 Speaker 2: I think a species needs to have grounding spiritually. I

1:38:08 Speaker 2: think a species have to have an essence of spirituality,

1:38:13 Speaker 2: something that in their being, to their bones says it

1:38:19 Speaker 2: makes a difference what you do, It makes a difference

1:38:24 Speaker 2: how you behave for your overall good and the good

1:38:29 Speaker 2: of others. And it makes a difference.

1:38:32 Speaker 1: So an intelligent species like us, not just all species, correct,

1:38:36 Speaker 1: the sure the most intelligent, yes.

1:38:39 Speaker 2: Right, So if you don't have a grounding though, in

1:38:44 Speaker 2: a solid spiritual philosophy, in a species like us, like humans,

1:38:50 Speaker 2: then you're rolling the dice on handing a species that

1:38:56 Speaker 2: might be immature spiritual some very advanced, dangerous stuff that

1:39:04 Speaker 2: can be used as weaponry or just misused and abused

1:39:09 Speaker 2: in other kinds of ways. And then maybe the species

1:39:13 Speaker 2: things that knows it all and it's cavalier, it's careless

1:39:16 Speaker 2: about the way the disposition of the technologies, but more

1:39:20 Speaker 2: than likely it's hostile because things tend to be weaponized.

1:39:25 Speaker 2: So you wind up with the species that's more like

1:39:27 Speaker 2: the Klingons than you want. So you wouldn't want to

1:39:31 Speaker 2: be on some of the planet and having these discover you, right,

1:39:35 Speaker 2: So I think those two lines are really important to

1:39:38 Speaker 2: try to harmonize. The problem is there's no intersection in

1:39:41 Speaker 2: sight in our lifetimes and other lifetimes. There's no intersections

1:39:46 Speaker 2: in sight. We haven't even begun to create a homogeneity

1:39:51 Speaker 2: of spirituality in the human species compared to the proliferation

1:39:55 Speaker 2: of technologies, so that incongruity can be a really serious

1:40:01 Speaker 2: problem someday.

1:40:02 Speaker 1: Maybe, Yeah, for sure. I mean, if we continue to

1:40:07 Speaker 1: concentrate only on things and on improving technology, but not

1:40:11 Speaker 1: improving the way we communicate with each other and love

1:40:13 Speaker 1: each other exactly, Yeah, exactly. So what's the solution?

1:40:17 Speaker 2: Wow? Yeah, I mean that's that's the big you know,

1:40:20 Speaker 2: that's the sixty four thousand dollars question that they used

1:40:23 Speaker 2: to say, yeah, whole television program. Yeah, I mean, that's

1:40:27 Speaker 2: that's what is a solution? You know, But who ponders that.

1:40:31 Speaker 2: Whoever ponders this only people with a lot of free time. Yeah,

1:40:35 Speaker 2: I suppose. So, Yeah, some some monks on the mountain

1:40:39 Speaker 2: side somewhere, some buddhas someplace.

1:40:41 Speaker 1: That's the problem with the way we live our lives.

1:40:43 Speaker 1: We're very, very busy with things that aren't exactly spiritually satisfying.

1:40:49 Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, we're we're there's a tremendous amount of

1:40:53 Speaker 2: noise for attention, And so wouldn't you get the time

1:40:57 Speaker 2: to just to think? Right?

1:41:01 Speaker 1: When do you poo me? Yeah? When do you?

1:41:06 Speaker 2: I'm just I'm too busy running circles.

1:41:08 Speaker 1: But I know you think about these things, and I

1:41:10 Speaker 1: know you you've you've thought a lot about consciousness and

1:41:14 Speaker 1: this is one of the things that you've studied, is

1:41:16 Speaker 1: one of the things you're involved in, is the concept

1:41:18 Speaker 1: of whether or not consciousness extends beyond death? Right, yeah,

1:41:25 Speaker 1: And what do you think?

1:41:26 Speaker 2: I think it's it's a It's a really important subject.

1:41:31 Speaker 2: So we have two holy grails, right, And the second

1:41:34 Speaker 2: holy grail is are we alone? As you've said, and

1:41:39 Speaker 2: everybody kind of has attracted that question. The other is

1:41:43 Speaker 2: does do aspects of your consciousness survive your bodily death?

1:41:49 Speaker 2: So is there a difference between mind and brain? So

1:41:55 Speaker 2: as brain the generator and mind as a reservoir and

1:42:00 Speaker 2: actually more more causal than the brain is in a sense.

1:42:04 Speaker 2: So in theory, the question relates to, guys, you're doing

1:42:08 Speaker 2: away with a brain. If the container decomposes and dies

1:42:12 Speaker 2: and is permanently offline, are there any aspects of your

1:42:18 Speaker 2: mind that continues? Does your consciousness continue? That is a

1:42:24 Speaker 2: question that has been attempted to answer since maybe the

1:42:28 Speaker 2: dawn of man. A loved one has just died. Is

1:42:36 Speaker 2: there any way to recapture that any way at all? Well,

1:42:40 Speaker 2: no threaten office, it's gone. And that is just a

1:42:43 Speaker 2: relevant question today as ever, because you have a lot

1:42:46 Speaker 2: of disparate kinds of folks beliefs, and you have religions

1:42:51 Speaker 2: that are against that notion altogether, and so you have

1:42:55 Speaker 2: a huge difference amount of differences in people's filosophy and

1:43:02 Speaker 2: driven by religious beliefs or just the way they've arrived

1:43:06 Speaker 2: at their own conclusions or whatever. So you have to

1:43:09 Speaker 2: be respectful of all these different kinds of beliefs and

1:43:15 Speaker 2: try to yet do to try to yet approach that

1:43:19 Speaker 2: subject in a way that is somehow determinable, try to

1:43:25 Speaker 2: arrive at something that maybe is not one hundred percent,

1:43:29 Speaker 2: but can you find answers in different ways that drive

1:43:33 Speaker 2: you into the high levels eighty eighty five ninety ninety

1:43:37 Speaker 2: five percent that you're leaning towards that. That would be

1:43:41 Speaker 2: really good news if you could legitimately do that and

1:43:45 Speaker 2: for yourself and you know and know that you have

1:43:49 Speaker 2: something else in addition to this.

1:43:51 Speaker 1: Well, that's always been what religions have strived for, right

1:43:57 Speaker 1: to show people that there's something more than this life. Oh,

1:44:02 Speaker 1: there's something something waiting.

1:44:04 Speaker 2: Yeah, for the majority of religions is their backyard, and

1:44:07 Speaker 2: there's all kinds of promises about what our backyard contains

1:44:13 Speaker 2: if you're a follower of our religion.

1:44:15 Speaker 1: Yeah, and the cynical people would always say, well, they're

1:44:18 Speaker 1: just trying to promise you that to get you to

1:44:19 Speaker 1: behave in this life. But there's really no evidence whatsoever

1:44:22 Speaker 1: that anything happens once you die. But then you have

1:44:25 Speaker 1: people that have had near death experiences, and those are

1:44:27 Speaker 1: the weird ones because they've had these near death experiences

1:44:30 Speaker 1: and they almost always come back saying it's gonna be okay.

1:44:35 Speaker 1: They almost always come back on there's something more to this, right,

1:44:38 Speaker 1: And we don't know what those near death experiences are.

1:44:42 Speaker 1: We know that certain aspects of them can be recreated

1:44:46 Speaker 1: with psychedelic drugs, and we do know that the brain

1:44:49 Speaker 1: produces psychedelic drugs, you know, particularly DMT, and people that

1:44:54 Speaker 1: have had experiences on psychedelics have had these moments. The

1:45:00 Speaker 1: like Larry Haggard, the guy from Dallas that remember that,

1:45:04 Speaker 1: he famously was on CNN once and I watched this

1:45:06 Speaker 1: interview where he's talking about how he had a high

1:45:09 Speaker 1: dose LSD experience once he never worried about death ever again,

1:45:13 Speaker 1: and he was talking about it, and the CNN anchor

1:45:16 Speaker 1: was clearly a little rattled because I believe what they

1:45:19 Speaker 1: were talking about was his green home. He had this

1:45:23 Speaker 1: home that operated off the grid and you know, he

1:45:26 Speaker 1: had it all set up so it was really well

1:45:29 Speaker 1: insulated and solar powered and all this stuff so that

1:45:31 Speaker 1: he could, you know, not have a heavy carbon footprint,

1:45:36 Speaker 1: so to talking about this, and along the line they

1:45:38 Speaker 1: get to talking about his LSD experience and death, and

1:45:42 Speaker 1: it was pretty trippy to see him say that and

1:45:44 Speaker 1: to see them going, oh, like, but many people that

1:45:47 Speaker 1: have had intense psychedelic experiences have had this thing happen

1:45:54 Speaker 1: to them where they believe they've gone to another dimension.

1:45:58 Speaker 1: They've gone to this other place that seems more real.

1:46:00 Speaker 1: From my own personal experiences, I've had these where you

1:46:03 Speaker 1: go to these realms that seem more real than the

1:46:07 Speaker 1: realm that you're living in, and you encounter something. Whether

1:46:11 Speaker 1: there's something is imaginary or whether it's it's actually you

1:46:16 Speaker 1: could put it on a scale and measure it. I'm

1:46:18 Speaker 1: not sure if it matters, because it's still a thing

1:46:21 Speaker 1: you experience.

1:46:22 Speaker 2: Did you have after these experiences, did you have any

1:46:26 Speaker 2: kind of evidence afterwards that you could draw a connection

1:46:30 Speaker 2: between what you saw in the visions and actually now

1:46:34 Speaker 2: what you've discovered. I mean, was there anything that popped

1:46:38 Speaker 2: up later on that connected the two.

1:46:41 Speaker 1: No, No, there's no evidence. There's even the memory is shaky,

1:46:48 Speaker 1: like your memories are shaky, just like the memories of

1:46:50 Speaker 1: a dream are shaky. But when it happens, and I've

1:46:54 Speaker 1: done it a bunch of times, every time it happens,

1:46:57 Speaker 1: you're like, oh, yeah, I remember this because it's so intense.

1:47:01 Speaker 2: And each time that you do it, is it more vivid?

1:47:04 Speaker 1: No, it's always vivid. There's you can't get more vivid.

1:47:08 Speaker 1: It doesn't get any more vivid. It's just it's way

1:47:10 Speaker 1: more vivid than life.

1:47:11 Speaker 2: What do you learn as you've been doing this multiple times?

1:47:14 Speaker 2: What's the lessons learned.

1:47:17 Speaker 1: Abandonment of the ego is a big one. That's the

1:47:19 Speaker 1: big one, That your ego and your your desire to

1:47:23 Speaker 1: protect yourself from failing or from reality, that those things

1:47:27 Speaker 1: are ultimately very detrimental to your consciousness, very detrimental to

1:47:31 Speaker 1: the way you communicate with other people, and that it's

1:47:34 Speaker 1: a battle, a constant battle to abandon these monkey instincts

1:47:38 Speaker 1: that we all have, and that these things have protected

1:47:41 Speaker 1: us and gotten us to the stage, but they can

1:47:43 Speaker 1: ultimately trip you up as you try to to sort

1:47:47 Speaker 1: of understand yourself better.

1:47:48 Speaker 2: You know, you're you're just hitting on something in the

1:47:50 Speaker 2: literature of survival of consciousness, of which there's hundreds or

1:47:56 Speaker 2: thousands of books that you could actually access and people

1:47:58 Speaker 2: to talk to. The message seems to be in the literature.

1:48:04 Speaker 2: Abandonment of the ego is a very important thing to do.

1:48:09 Speaker 2: It's a very important thing. As you've passed over, that's

1:48:12 Speaker 2: one of the things that happens is try to remove

1:48:15 Speaker 2: the ego and shove it aside.

1:48:19 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it seems to be. That's an impediment to

1:48:24 Speaker 1: learning in a lot of different ways. It's an impediment

1:48:29 Speaker 1: to learning art. It's an impediment to learn because you

1:48:31 Speaker 1: think you're better than you are if you let your

1:48:33 Speaker 1: ego lie to you. It's same with technical skills, physical skills.

1:48:38 Speaker 1: You can lie to yourself and a lot of that

1:48:41 Speaker 1: is the ego. But the ego is also what keeps

1:48:43 Speaker 1: you alive. You know, it's the thing that makes you

1:48:46 Speaker 1: want to be successful. It's a thing that makes you

1:48:49 Speaker 1: want to progress. It's a thing that makes you want

1:48:51 Speaker 1: to accomplish things like it's not And the key to

1:48:57 Speaker 1: one of the keys to an actualized life is to progress.

1:49:02 Speaker 1: Move your motivation away from ego to the fascination in

1:49:08 Speaker 1: problem solving and acquiring skills and getting better at tasks

1:49:13 Speaker 1: is that there's something something interesting in it. And especially

1:49:16 Speaker 1: if you're doing something that benefits other people, when it

1:49:19 Speaker 1: benefits of the people that you get better at these

1:49:20 Speaker 1: things because these other people get to enjoy these things

1:49:22 Speaker 1: on a higher level, then you get this cool feeling

1:49:26 Speaker 1: of actually benefiting people, actually helping people with your your

1:49:31 Speaker 1: fascination with these things. And the more you concentrate on

1:49:35 Speaker 1: the ego, the more you're gonna it'll taint whatever progress

1:49:40 Speaker 1: you're making, you know, taint whatever thing you're creating.

1:49:43 Speaker 2: So back to the near death experiences. So let's suppose

1:49:46 Speaker 2: that you just look at the ones that come along naturally.

1:49:50 Speaker 2: You know, somebody has flat lined on an operating table,

1:49:55 Speaker 2: they fall through the ice. Yeah, whatever, Okay, So there

1:50:02 Speaker 2: are so many near death experiences. I mean, I've heard

1:50:07 Speaker 2: numbers that are ridiculous, in the millions people, and in

1:50:11 Speaker 2: this country, not just in the world. And so there's

1:50:17 Speaker 2: a hell of a lot of smoke. There's a there

1:50:20 Speaker 2: must be an awful lot of heat somewhere in terms

1:50:22 Speaker 2: of the probability that this is real, because how other

1:50:28 Speaker 2: explanations are really tough. Now you can have out of

1:50:30 Speaker 2: body experiences and you can validate conversations in a room.

1:50:35 Speaker 2: You should have no way of understanding where tools were

1:50:37 Speaker 2: taken from what drawers or anything like that. But people

1:50:40 Speaker 2: look like in the because you're gone, you're under anesthesia, right,

1:50:44 Speaker 2: there's no way. And yet the literature is replete with stories,

1:50:48 Speaker 2: thousands of stories like that, and the same thing with

1:50:52 Speaker 2: near death stories. You know, huge volume of information, every

1:50:57 Speaker 2: example you can possibly imagine, and and so then you wonder, well,

1:51:05 Speaker 2: how can you correlate that? How can you correlate anything

1:51:09 Speaker 2: to do with did the person have an experience not

1:51:13 Speaker 2: just through the tunnel, but what they saw afterwards, in

1:51:17 Speaker 2: that period of time after they exited the tunnel into

1:51:20 Speaker 2: wherever they were, and how do we how do we

1:51:24 Speaker 2: verify that what they actually saw was the other side?

1:51:28 Speaker 1: Not only that, you have different human beings with a

1:51:31 Speaker 1: different understanding of language, so they have limited vocabulary or

1:51:35 Speaker 1: limited ability to describe things, or limited ability to express themselves,

1:51:39 Speaker 1: and maybe they're not so good at relaying what it was.

1:51:43 Speaker 2: And does it fit with their religions and their philosophy.

1:51:49 Speaker 1: And how much of it do you distort when you

1:51:52 Speaker 1: get back to make yourself feel better? How much of

1:51:54 Speaker 1: it do you how much do you actually share with people?

1:51:57 Speaker 1: I mean, remember you were you were talking about yourchildhood experience.

1:52:00 Speaker 1: You didn't even want to share with your wife, Like

1:52:02 Speaker 1: when people have a near death experience. Maybe maybe some

1:52:05 Speaker 1: of it it's like unpleasant, you know, I.

1:52:07 Speaker 2: Didn't want to share with her. I mean she might

1:52:08 Speaker 2: have said, hey, go sleep in the other room, crazy. Yeah,

1:52:11 Speaker 2: I don't want you around me, you know, so wh

1:52:13 Speaker 2: I take the chance?

1:52:14 Speaker 1: Well, people, people have a real fear of being ridiculed,

1:52:16 Speaker 1: you know, and to be ridiculed for a near death

1:52:20 Speaker 1: experience is probably similar to being ridiculed for a UFO

1:52:24 Speaker 1: and count or a ridicule for any other super spectacular

1:52:28 Speaker 1: thing that most people are never going to experience, right right, Yeah,

1:52:32 Speaker 1: So what when you have talked about this, the ability

1:52:38 Speaker 1: to measure whether consciousness exists outside of life when they're what,

1:52:45 Speaker 1: how can that be measured? And what what steps can

1:52:49 Speaker 1: be made to try to quantify and to try to

1:52:54 Speaker 1: validate whether or not this is a real thing.

1:52:57 Speaker 2: You don't want to hear this.

1:52:58 Speaker 1: I do want to hear this, all right, So I

1:53:01 Speaker 1: don't want to hear this. Well, I don't know.

1:53:02 Speaker 2: I'm just guessing. I'm just guessing. I'm sitting here with

1:53:05 Speaker 2: a reptilian brainstem trying to keep up, all right. So,

1:53:10 Speaker 2: so how do you verify a near death experience? It

1:53:15 Speaker 2: might be that there's some kind of messaging that can

1:53:17 Speaker 2: happen from whoever greeted you temporarily on the other side

1:53:23 Speaker 2: because you are coming back, and maybe that message can

1:53:28 Speaker 2: be verified in some way. Maybe it's something that doesn't

1:53:30 Speaker 2: even make sense to you. Okay, so you do come back,

1:53:35 Speaker 2: you snap back in to this reality. You're alive, and

1:53:41 Speaker 2: sure enough, what was conveyed to you from the other

1:53:46 Speaker 2: side actually happens, and it wasn't something that was expected,

1:53:50 Speaker 2: it was it was profound in some way, and so

1:53:54 Speaker 2: that might be a way of verifying through this message

1:53:56 Speaker 2: that you had no other way of knowing or predicting

1:53:59 Speaker 2: that this was going to happen. There's also the subject

1:54:06 Speaker 2: of psychic mediums. All Right, I can see stoneface right now.

1:54:13 Speaker 2: You're not buying it, all.

1:54:14 Speaker 1: Right, I didn't say anything, I know, but I always

1:54:16 Speaker 1: give I'm looking at give stone face when people talk. Okay,

1:54:19 Speaker 1: all right, but yeah, most psychic mediums I think are

1:54:22 Speaker 1: full shit.

1:54:22 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I so, Okay, it doesn't mean they're

1:54:26 Speaker 2: all well, okay, now we'll say that again.

1:54:30 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean they're all full shit. Okay, okay, good,

1:54:33 Speaker 1: all right.

1:54:33 Speaker 2: All right, all right, Yeah, and some are a whole

1:54:37 Speaker 2: lot better than others.

1:54:38 Speaker 1: Yes, and some Look, it's like everything else. There's con

1:54:40 Speaker 1: artists out there, yes, and then there's people that are genuinely,

1:54:44 Speaker 1: genuinely unique.

1:54:45 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, absolutely, yeah, world class performers yeah yeah. And

1:54:51 Speaker 2: so so of course, you can't help yourself but try

1:54:56 Speaker 2: to get information that falls in the categories that they

1:55:01 Speaker 2: should have no way of knowing. In fact, you might

1:55:04 Speaker 2: not even know the information yourself at that moment in time.

1:55:07 Speaker 2: You know, you'll say no, or it's only later after

1:55:10 Speaker 2: you've listened to the recording or whatever that oh my gosh,

1:55:15 Speaker 2: they were right and this and this and that. So

1:55:19 Speaker 2: that is a very important source of information, assuming you're

1:55:25 Speaker 2: talking to ones that have been legitimatized, right, and they've

1:55:29 Speaker 2: been bona fide.

1:55:30 Speaker 1: Do you know any I know a very good one,

1:55:34 Speaker 1: you know, really good psychic medium? Can I meet that person?

1:55:39 Speaker 2: I don't see why not. I mean, it's up to

1:55:42 Speaker 2: them too, right, Yeah, but I think that would be

1:55:44 Speaker 2: a yeah, I would.

1:55:47 Speaker 1: I'll ask what does this person do professionally? Are they

1:55:50 Speaker 1: psychic medium professionally? So they make money doing it?

1:55:56 Speaker 2: This person isn't motivated by as far as my understanding is,

1:56:08 Speaker 2: by just doing these things as a as a business. Uh,

1:56:12 Speaker 2: this person will do things. We'll do We'll do readings,

1:56:19 Speaker 2: uh pro bono without a fee, without charging. That's promising and.

1:56:28 Speaker 1: Uh that helps, That helps believe you, helps you believe them.

1:56:32 Speaker 2: Brother, they have a family, and you know the person

1:56:35 Speaker 2: has a family and so on.

1:56:36 Speaker 1: So it's always a woman. Why is it always a

1:56:39 Speaker 1: woman that's really good at it. What is it a woman?

1:56:41 Speaker 2: Do you hear what I say?

1:56:43 Speaker 1: Is it a woman?

1:56:45 Speaker 2: Actually? Yes, well it is. It is interesting why psychic

1:56:51 Speaker 2: mediums tend to be women.

1:56:52 Speaker 1: I think because women have to be worried about men,

1:56:54 Speaker 1: because men are fucking crazy and and you know, men

1:56:58 Speaker 1: are more violent and women are probab be more intuitive

1:57:00 Speaker 1: because they have to pay more attention to these assholes.

1:57:03 Speaker 2: Well, you know, a pound for pound, they're the best

1:57:05 Speaker 2: astronaut there is women. Of course, of course, you get

1:57:09 Speaker 2: all that brain power in a package that doesn't weigh

1:57:12 Speaker 2: as much.

1:57:13 Speaker 1: Oh that makes sense.

1:57:14 Speaker 2: You're watching launching less weight, So they're okay, But all

1:57:18 Speaker 2: kidding outside, Yeah, psychic mediums are a really good, legitimate

1:57:24 Speaker 2: source of getting alternate information that helps to collaborate things

1:57:30 Speaker 2: maybe that that have happened other ways, or informations come

1:57:33 Speaker 2: maybe from a near death experience er, you know, for example.

1:57:38 Speaker 1: But outside of psychic mediums, what when you're talking about

1:57:41 Speaker 1: measuring whether or not consciousness exists outside of life, whether

1:57:46 Speaker 1: or not your consciousness somehow or another transcends your physical body.

1:57:52 Speaker 2: So you've heard of automatic writing, Yes, and and I

1:57:56 Speaker 2: don't mean that means what. It has nothing to do

1:58:00 Speaker 2: with your wife automatically going into your checkbook. It's got

1:58:04 Speaker 2: nothing to do with that, all right, anymore, that's automatic, Okay,

1:58:08 Speaker 2: I'll do that old fashioned bank online, I write, I

1:58:11 Speaker 2: write in scheck.

1:58:12 Speaker 1: But what is explain automatic writing to people? All right?

1:58:15 Speaker 2: So apparently it's it's something that has occurred for many,

1:58:22 Speaker 2: many years over, especially back when the study of spiritualism

1:58:26 Speaker 2: and the whole investigations of psychics was very, very strong,

1:58:40 Speaker 2: from about eighteen thirty five or forty to nineteen thirty ish,

1:58:46 Speaker 2: and then it has continued in some ways up until

1:58:50 Speaker 2: recent times. So you have somebody who is writing and

1:58:59 Speaker 2: they are being controlled by a spirit, okay, or they're

1:59:04 Speaker 2: in a trance, or maybe they're in a trance, but

1:59:07 Speaker 2: they could be lucid. Doesn't have to be in a

1:59:09 Speaker 2: non lucid trance, or they could be they could be

1:59:13 Speaker 2: lucid in the writing, or they could be in a trance.

1:59:16 Speaker 2: And maybe they're not writing in the vernacular and language

1:59:20 Speaker 2: that they're used to. Maybe they have a six or

1:59:23 Speaker 2: seventh year education and they're writing very sophisticated information.

1:59:32 Speaker 1: Have you experienced this?

1:59:35 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't. I'm I'm an explorer and a researcher, investigator,

1:59:44 Speaker 2: a student. But so I'm trying to gather information through

1:59:52 Speaker 2: other ways and I've had personal experiences, but I'm not

1:59:57 Speaker 2: nothing of automatic writing. So anyway, again, the literature is

2:00:03 Speaker 2: huge on this subject of automatic writing, and it's easy

2:00:08 Speaker 2: to dismissed because it just seems very strange. You're being possessed,

2:00:13 Speaker 2: you're you're you're actually being controlled.

2:00:15 Speaker 1: Right, But has anybody ever verified any of these this

2:00:18 Speaker 1: automatic writing stuff in the literature.

2:00:21 Speaker 2: Yeah, you have a lot of information that the writer

2:00:25 Speaker 2: isn't aware of, shouldn't be, it doesn't know, it's not

2:00:29 Speaker 2: it's outside of their world. Okay, So so there has

2:00:33 Speaker 2: been different kinds of cross correspondence and other kinds of

2:00:36 Speaker 2: ways of verifying that this didn't come from this person.

2:00:41 Speaker 2: Something else is going on here. It didn't come off

2:00:45 Speaker 2: from this person. It's not not right, it's not it's

2:00:48 Speaker 2: completely illogical. So you know, so that's that's one means

2:00:53 Speaker 2: of adding something to the menu.

2:00:57 Speaker 1: But when you're trying to measure whether or not consciousness

2:00:59 Speaker 1: exists outside of life, just because someone's automatically writing, they

2:01:06 Speaker 1: could be receiving some signal from someone that's still alive,

2:01:10 Speaker 1: if there is some sort of psychic communication, if there

2:01:13 Speaker 1: is a possibility of remote viewing, and you can transmit

2:01:17 Speaker 1: information from person to person without words, and this is

2:01:21 Speaker 1: one of the ultimate goals of neuralink. Elon Musk actually said,

2:01:25 Speaker 1: you're going to be able to talk without using words.

2:01:28 Speaker 1: I mean, if human beings, if it's possible to do

2:01:32 Speaker 1: something along those lines. This could be a live person

2:01:35 Speaker 1: that's somehow or another projecting these thoughts and someone else's

2:01:40 Speaker 1: tuning into them in the same way you would tune

2:01:43 Speaker 1: into a radio signal.

2:01:44 Speaker 2: Okay, So the way you would test that is probably

2:01:51 Speaker 2: it's going to be what's the nature of the entire

2:01:56 Speaker 2: subject matter? How extensive is this subject matter? Because at

2:02:01 Speaker 2: some point you're adding on so much weight and so

2:02:04 Speaker 2: many different variables that it stretches the credit, the credulty,

2:02:09 Speaker 2: the credibility of that theory working. It's kind of like

2:02:15 Speaker 2: using ball lightning as an excuse for all kinds of

2:02:18 Speaker 2: things when it has a very short life, usually travels

2:02:21 Speaker 2: in one direction and it's very very very rare. So

2:02:25 Speaker 2: everybody uses oxen ockham razor as this is what you do.

2:02:29 Speaker 2: You want to go to what is the simplest solution

2:02:32 Speaker 2: instead of trying to find swamp gas to describe the

2:02:36 Speaker 2: craft that just landed. So you know, I would say

2:02:43 Speaker 2: that's probably testable. You could probably create the methodologies to

2:02:48 Speaker 2: some do some some laboratory type tests on that. But

2:02:53 Speaker 2: my guess is that would fail as a solution.

2:02:56 Speaker 1: But you see where we're talking right now in these

2:03:00 Speaker 1: weird terms because I don't know if that stuff's real.

2:03:02 Speaker 1: I don't. I mean, I could describe what I think

2:03:06 Speaker 1: would be wrong with these scenarios, but I don't know

2:03:10 Speaker 1: if any of this remote writing or automatic writing has

2:03:14 Speaker 1: been verified. You do through the literature, the literature. What

2:03:18 Speaker 1: does that mean though, Well, through literature people are full

2:03:21 Speaker 1: of shit. They write things down that aren't true.

2:03:22 Speaker 2: It just means that we haven't set up experiments ourselves

2:03:26 Speaker 2: to verify ourselves and actually watching implementing it under controlled conditions,

2:03:31 Speaker 2: double blind, right, So what else do you have to

2:03:36 Speaker 2: resort to. It's what's in the literature, thoroughly digest and

2:03:40 Speaker 2: pros and cons and everything. A lot of sources and

2:03:43 Speaker 2: people who have engaged in this, and maybe they have film,

2:03:47 Speaker 2: maybe they actually have film of the writing, and you

2:03:50 Speaker 2: compare the handwriting, maybe it's different handwriting altogether, maybe it's

2:03:53 Speaker 2: in a different language completely. In fact, there are stories

2:03:57 Speaker 2: a lot of accounts of exactly that.

2:03:59 Speaker 1: But this subject of consciousness and whether or not consciousness

2:04:01 Speaker 1: exists beyond life, this is something that's important to you.

2:04:04 Speaker 1: So it'd assume that you've looked into it further than

2:04:07 Speaker 1: just this idea of automatic writing being the only piece

2:04:09 Speaker 1: of evidence.

2:04:10 Speaker 2: Actually that area is the least I've looked into.

2:04:13 Speaker 1: Automatic, say, area the most you've looked into.

2:04:19 Speaker 2: Well, now, first of all, I have kind of recaptured

2:04:23 Speaker 2: this this survival of consciousness inquiry that I was into

2:04:28 Speaker 2: in the nineteen eighties, and I have now formed an

2:04:31 Speaker 2: institute called BIS that started in June of last year.

2:04:36 Speaker 1: What does BIG stand for?

2:04:39 Speaker 2: Bigelow Institution for Survival of Consciousness and for conscious conscious

2:04:49 Speaker 2: Survival big Oeld Institute for Conscious Survival of Consciousness. And

2:04:58 Speaker 2: this organization is is very new, and so we're in

2:05:04 Speaker 2: a method of trying to stimulate research and investigate and

2:05:12 Speaker 2: catch up on the literature. And we have a unique

2:05:21 Speaker 2: situation where I have people around us that have ongoing

2:05:26 Speaker 2: things happening, ongoing things, different kinds of events that are

2:05:36 Speaker 2: being reported by family staff. Friends like apparitions.

2:05:46 Speaker 1: Ghosts, Yeah, you believe in ghosts.

2:05:51 Speaker 2: I have fun My experiences, well, there's a different Well,

2:05:56 Speaker 2: there's difference in terms of what causes you to believe

2:06:02 Speaker 2: in something. The most personal experiences probably, so my personal

2:06:07 Speaker 2: experiences are not having ever seen an apparition. My wife

2:06:11 Speaker 2: did I have had poltergeist, a very demonstrative poltergeist event.

2:06:18 Speaker 2: What was decades ago?

2:06:19 Speaker 1: What happened.

2:06:23 Speaker 2: Probably, I don't know, twenty five years ago or more.

2:06:31 Speaker 2: Eleven o'clock at night, my wife and I are laying

2:06:34 Speaker 2: in bed Halloween Eve. This is appropriate Halloween Eve, Okay,

2:06:45 Speaker 2: hardwood floors downstairs in the entrance hall, on which tables

2:06:51 Speaker 2: are all set up with lots and lots of candies

2:06:54 Speaker 2: bags because bags are being given out, large, very large

2:06:58 Speaker 2: candy bars and bags and bags of everything piled up,

2:07:02 Speaker 2: hundreds of kids having to be taken care of. Halloween,

2:07:05 Speaker 2: big deal. The ghosts in the trees, and this is

2:07:08 Speaker 2: a family thing. It was big deal every year.

2:07:11 Speaker 1: Decorations.

2:07:11 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, the whole the full Monty got it

2:07:14 Speaker 2: all right. So we're laying there and there's this crash

2:07:22 Speaker 2: bang boom, crash, crash crackher like a thousand mault balls

2:07:28 Speaker 2: just dropped to the hardwood floor, made all this noise.

2:07:31 Speaker 2: It sounds like the sound the sound I estimated, seemed

2:07:34 Speaker 2: to last forever, probably about three and a half four seconds,

2:07:37 Speaker 2: which is a long time for noise to continue. And

2:07:42 Speaker 2: I said, oh, it's jeez, stay here, I'll go take

2:07:47 Speaker 2: care of it. Whatever, I'll get it all, I'll get it.

2:07:50 Speaker 2: I'll go take care of it. The mess. So I

2:07:52 Speaker 2: go downstairs. Nothing's wrong, nothing's wrong. She doesn't believe me.

2:08:02 Speaker 2: She comes downstairs and she says, oh my god. So yeah,

2:08:08 Speaker 2: I don't have to do anything. Everything's perfect. I didn't

2:08:11 Speaker 2: touch it. It's just like we set it up. So

2:08:17 Speaker 2: that was a really interesting event. And pulled her guys

2:08:20 Speaker 2: a lot of times.

2:08:21 Speaker 1: So it's just a sound that you heard, Yeah, just

2:08:23 Speaker 1: a sound, a sound like something crashed, like all.

2:08:26 Speaker 2: Everything on, all those tables piled all up, had all

2:08:29 Speaker 2: crashed to the floor and bags broken open.

2:08:31 Speaker 1: Yes, but nothing did nothing. You had children at the time.

2:08:36 Speaker 2: I had teenagers, and they were gone, they were out

2:08:39 Speaker 2: of the house. They were gone. You sure they weren't

2:08:41 Speaker 2: fucking with you, the teenagers, But well, what would they

2:08:45 Speaker 2: have to do?

2:08:45 Speaker 1: Have a recording noise.

2:08:46 Speaker 2: Yeah, they would have to crash all this and record it,

2:08:48 Speaker 2: wouldn't It's not more likely and spend hundreds of dollars

2:08:51 Speaker 2: doing this, And well that's how much we always spent

2:08:54 Speaker 2: on recordings. No, on the candy, I mean, I mean

2:09:00 Speaker 2: just sounds.

2:09:00 Speaker 1: It sounded like mothballs you said, right, or like maltballs

2:09:05 Speaker 1: hitting the floor, right.

2:09:06 Speaker 2: Job breakers or whatever, candies, hard things, whatever.

2:09:11 Speaker 1: But that was it? Just a sound. That's a lot,

2:09:15 Speaker 1: But it's not necessarily a ghost.

2:09:17 Speaker 2: When when nothing has happened. Well, no, we're trying to

2:09:19 Speaker 2: understand about the Poulter Guys. Now, Polter Guys don't have

2:09:23 Speaker 2: to be anything manifested as a ghost. It can be

2:09:25 Speaker 2: an audible sound.

2:09:27 Speaker 1: But was there anything more to the experience than just

2:09:29 Speaker 1: a loud sound that turned out to be nothing?

2:09:33 Speaker 2: M No, that was pretty good.

2:09:37 Speaker 1: That's not enough for a starter.

2:09:38 Speaker 2: That's pretty good. You know, I probably like, Okay, what's

2:09:42 Speaker 2: gonna happen tomorrow night?

2:09:45 Speaker 1: Did something happen to marrow night?

2:09:46 Speaker 2: No?

2:09:46 Speaker 1: That was just one loud noise.

2:09:48 Speaker 2: It was a big deal.

2:09:49 Speaker 1: You know, It's like, wow, imagine if that was the

2:09:52 Speaker 1: whole movie Polter Guys, just a loud noise.

2:09:54 Speaker 2: Well, wouldn't that be that entertainment? No, you have to

2:09:57 Speaker 2: have chandeliers swinging and crashing and all that. That's what

2:10:00 Speaker 2: I was expecting.

2:10:01 Speaker 1: I wasn't expecting just like candy hit the floor, but no,

2:10:03 Speaker 1: candy actually hit the floor.

2:10:04 Speaker 2: Well I never said that My life was that exciting.

2:10:06 Speaker 2: You know, it hasn't been that great.

2:10:09 Speaker 1: But I want to get to this idea that you're

2:10:12 Speaker 1: trying to pursue of measuring consciousness or trying to figure

2:10:15 Speaker 1: out whether or not consciousness survives death, right, Like, what

2:10:19 Speaker 1: do you want to do and how do you want

2:10:21 Speaker 1: to do it? You can't just do it through remote

2:10:23 Speaker 1: writing or automatic writing or psychic mediums or there's got

2:10:27 Speaker 1: to be a way to figure this out.

2:10:30 Speaker 2: Yeah, So we started the institute and I said, okay,

2:10:35 Speaker 2: let's stir the pod up. And in fact, we thought

2:10:43 Speaker 2: we would join an organization and they didn't want us,

2:10:49 Speaker 2: so we got rejected. So we got rejected and then

2:10:53 Speaker 2: crawled off and conjured up a contest. So the contest

2:10:59 Speaker 2: says you have to have some credentials to enter this contest.

2:11:03 Speaker 1: As a kind of credentials do you have to have

2:11:05 Speaker 1: as a psychic?

2:11:06 Speaker 2: You have to have no, no, no, no. You have

2:11:08 Speaker 2: to have background in the topic of and you could

2:11:14 Speaker 2: be you could be a priest, a minister, or a rabbi.

2:11:18 Speaker 2: You have to have background in the topic of studying

2:11:21 Speaker 2: and understanding does it potentially does the other side even exist?

2:11:27 Speaker 2: We're not asking to tell us what it's all about, okay,

2:11:30 Speaker 2: just does it friggin exist?

2:11:32 Speaker 1: Right?

2:11:33 Speaker 2: So you might be a producer or director of a

2:11:37 Speaker 2: television show for years and you've got more stuff on

2:11:40 Speaker 2: film than you can imagine, of different kinds of weird

2:11:44 Speaker 2: things happening that you have no explanation for any of that,

2:11:47 Speaker 2: and you've made a study of this for a long time.

2:11:50 Speaker 2: You could be a good candidate. You could be a

2:11:53 Speaker 2: detective and maybe you're solving murder cases by using psychic mediums.

2:11:58 Speaker 1: So you have to have something you bring to the table.

2:12:00 Speaker 2: So you have to have someone to bring to the table.

2:12:02 Speaker 2: And you can't send us an essay. You're going to

2:12:04 Speaker 2: write an essay to present your case, and it can't

2:12:08 Speaker 2: be more than twenty five thousand words, which is about

2:12:10 Speaker 2: fifty pages.

2:12:11 Speaker 1: So you're just essentially going to allow people to come

2:12:15 Speaker 1: up with some convincing argument and bring it to you.

2:12:17 Speaker 1: So you have a contest to do this. Is that

2:12:18 Speaker 1: what it is?

2:12:19 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what it is. So we say, okay, there's

2:12:23 Speaker 2: a deadline to get all your applications in and then

2:12:27 Speaker 2: you have many months. Deadline is actually the end of

2:12:30 Speaker 2: this month, the twentieth of February, and then you.

2:12:33 Speaker 1: Have Jamie's got it up here Bick's Essay competition Best

2:12:38 Speaker 1: Evidence for Afterlife ss will be judged by five renown experts.

2:12:43 Speaker 2: That's up to six. Now we have another judge, which

2:12:47 Speaker 2: is a good thing because because.

2:12:49 Speaker 1: The winning essay gets a half a milli second place

2:12:53 Speaker 1: that's three. No, it's perfect, it's good. Second place gets

2:12:56 Speaker 1: three hundred. Third place gets one hundred and fifty grand.

2:13:00 Speaker 1: If you have a semi shitty near death experience story,

2:13:04 Speaker 1: you get one hundred and fifty. It's it's an interesting

2:13:08 Speaker 1: way to do it, but uh, you know, I would

2:13:12 Speaker 1: hope there would be some better way to measure. You know,

2:13:16 Speaker 1: you know the expression extraordinary extraordinary evidence.

2:13:20 Speaker 2: Yeah, true, but you got to remember that. Well, first

2:13:27 Speaker 2: of all, we're causing conversation and and thought about the subject,

2:13:34 Speaker 2: and we're string the pot and this kind of contest

2:13:38 Speaker 2: has never been done before and what.

2:13:41 Speaker 1: If they're all terrible? Do you still give first place

2:13:43 Speaker 1: to someone who's terrible.

2:13:44 Speaker 2: Worse than that? What were there are only three applicants, right,

2:13:48 Speaker 2: a second, third price?

2:13:49 Speaker 1: It all suck?

2:13:50 Speaker 2: Yeah?

2:13:50 Speaker 1: Yeah.

2:13:50 Speaker 2: Well, the good news is we have some really good people.

2:13:54 Speaker 1: Jamie's thinking about right one right now. We have some

2:13:57 Speaker 1: We have some yeah, half a million bucks.

2:14:02 Speaker 2: We have some very good people who are entering this contest.

2:14:05 Speaker 2: The credentials are terrific, they're very good. They're authors of

2:14:10 Speaker 2: many books. There's there's an extent, extensive background of these

2:14:15 Speaker 2: kinds of folks. So we're excited about that. The response

2:14:21 Speaker 2: has been favorable, and so then well there's a lot

2:14:24 Speaker 2: of money they have August fir to do this, Okay,

2:14:28 Speaker 2: and then the judges.

2:14:29 Speaker 1: Now, so here we are what is it the twenty fourth?

2:14:32 Speaker 1: What is it twenty fourth of February?

2:14:35 Speaker 2: Okay, So then the judges start, and we just added

2:14:39 Speaker 2: a physicist to this group. He's the sixth one, and

2:14:45 Speaker 2: so he understands judging things and being a critical thinker,

2:14:52 Speaker 2: and so he really rounds out the group very well.

2:14:55 Speaker 2: And so the judges start August first, August, September, October,

2:15:00 Speaker 2: and then they're supposed to be finished by November first

2:15:03 Speaker 2: and have made decisions. So then we announce the winners,

2:15:07 Speaker 2: and we want to post all the three winners, and

2:15:11 Speaker 2: I suspect the judges are going to have a problem.

2:15:14 Speaker 2: It's going to be damn hard to pick three out

2:15:17 Speaker 2: of the group because we have that we have. This

2:15:22 Speaker 2: has been generated a lot of interest, and we have

2:15:25 Speaker 2: some really good folks into this. So we are going

2:15:29 Speaker 2: to get permissions. As an applicant, they have to give

2:15:31 Speaker 2: us permission just to We don't own anything. We just

2:15:34 Speaker 2: want to put it on our website so people can

2:15:35 Speaker 2: read all the essays. So maybe we have twenty twenty

2:15:39 Speaker 2: five essays, not just the three winners. So it's going

2:15:41 Speaker 2: to give people a chance to really read a lot

2:15:44 Speaker 2: of different kinds of arguments and maybe.

2:15:46 Speaker 1: By what metrics are you going to accept evidence of

2:15:49 Speaker 1: the afterlife?

2:15:50 Speaker 2: Good question? Okay, So we patterned this after the legal

2:15:56 Speaker 2: system of the Western world, and the Western world says

2:16:01 Speaker 2: two things that you can convict providing you have beyond

2:16:09 Speaker 2: evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. It doesn't say one hundred percent,

2:16:13 Speaker 2: it says beyond a reasonable doubt. Number two witnesses really matter,

2:16:20 Speaker 2: the veracity and the quality of the witnesses matter, and

2:16:23 Speaker 2: how many did you have to something? You know, what

2:16:27 Speaker 2: is it that is being claimed here? You know? And

2:16:31 Speaker 2: what is the cross the cross, core, correlation, collaboration and

2:16:36 Speaker 2: whatever it is that you're trying to relate here.

2:16:38 Speaker 1: So when you're talking about convicting someone for a crime,

2:16:42 Speaker 1: here's the problem with that analogy. Crimes are real. Like

2:16:45 Speaker 1: if you're talking about convicting someone for a murder, the

2:16:47 Speaker 1: murder is real, the person's dead, and you want to

2:16:49 Speaker 1: catch someone, so you have eyewitness encounters, you have evidence,

2:16:53 Speaker 1: you have all these things, and you can convict someone

2:16:57 Speaker 1: on that evidence. There's no evidence that ghost real. There's

2:17:01 Speaker 1: no evidence that the afterlife is real. So you're you're

2:17:04 Speaker 1: guessing wrong. How's it wrong?

2:17:06 Speaker 2: Wrong?

2:17:06 Speaker 1: But murders are real, right, you would say murders are

2:17:08 Speaker 1: way more real than the afternoon?

2:17:10 Speaker 2: I said is wrong in this context?

2:17:12 Speaker 1: In what way? An applicant, an applicant.

2:17:15 Speaker 2: Who's a detective who has been using psychic no, what

2:17:21 Speaker 2: in fact, I got my watch right here, I'll.

2:17:24 Speaker 1: Talk that that turned out to be real? Right? Remember

2:17:27 Speaker 1: it did? It is talked like that's crazy?

2:17:30 Speaker 2: The time didn't fast forward two hours? I come from

2:17:34 Speaker 2: a Pacific time.

2:17:35 Speaker 1: Oh it didn't weird.

2:17:37 Speaker 2: No, And so I haven't been using my cell phone

2:17:40 Speaker 2: and I forgot forgot to bring.

2:17:42 Speaker 1: My charge on some shitty service. My changes.

2:17:46 Speaker 2: I'm going to talk to my granddaughter because she gave

2:17:48 Speaker 2: it to me.

2:17:49 Speaker 1: But you understand what I'm saying, though, because we actually

2:17:51 Speaker 1: talked about.

2:17:52 Speaker 2: Wait a minute, though, this guy's a detective solving murder

2:17:55 Speaker 2: cases using mediums, right, Well, isn't this like wow?

2:18:01 Speaker 1: Yeah, but when they solve murder cases using mediums, if

2:18:05 Speaker 1: that has ever been real? And I've talked to some

2:18:08 Speaker 1: detectives and say, that's all horseshit, because I did have

2:18:10 Speaker 1: a long discussion with someone who is a he's an

2:18:14 Speaker 1: investigative detective and he solves crimes. And he's like, there's

2:18:17 Speaker 1: no evidence that any psychics have ever given you any

2:18:20 Speaker 1: real information.

2:18:21 Speaker 2: Now he hasn't investigated the subject. He has had probably

2:18:23 Speaker 2: one experience, maybe two.

2:18:24 Speaker 1: Now he has this induces his personal opinion on cases

2:18:29 Speaker 1: that he's been involved in. And maybe he's wrong, but

2:18:32 Speaker 1: this is just what he said. He said, people are desperate,

2:18:35 Speaker 1: they hire psychics. They But my point is murder is real.

2:18:41 Speaker 1: The difference is you're convicting someone for something absolutely happened.

2:18:45 Speaker 1: When you're talking about trying to figure out whether or

2:18:48 Speaker 1: not there's an afterlife based on the kind of evidence

2:18:51 Speaker 1: that would be used to convict someone of a murder,

2:18:53 Speaker 1: that doesn't necessarily work. Because we know for a fact

2:18:57 Speaker 1: that murder's real. We know for a fact that human

2:18:59 Speaker 1: beings are real, and that if you kill them, you're

2:19:02 Speaker 1: a murderer. Well, this is all fact. We don't know

2:19:06 Speaker 1: whether or not there's an afterlife. So to use the

2:19:09 Speaker 1: same obligation or the same preponderance of evidence that would

2:19:14 Speaker 1: convict someone of a crime for something that you don't

2:19:17 Speaker 1: even know I is real, they don't necessarily You can't.

2:19:22 Speaker 1: They're not comparable.

2:19:23 Speaker 2: No, I wouldn't say, don't put the seriousness of an

2:19:30 Speaker 2: event in terms of the harm it caused as not

2:19:35 Speaker 2: being as being more legitimate than an event that actually

2:19:40 Speaker 2: produces information that you should have no way of acquiring.

2:19:43 Speaker 1: Well, let's not say that. Then, Let's talk about it

2:19:45 Speaker 1: in terms of something different than a murder. Let's talk

2:19:48 Speaker 1: about it in terms of vandalism. Just someone spray painting

2:19:52 Speaker 1: some building somewhere, right, Let's talk about that. No one

2:19:54 Speaker 1: gets hurt, just physical stuff.

2:19:56 Speaker 2: And takes that example. And suppose you went to a

2:20:00 Speaker 2: psychic medium and then and she says, what I'm hearing

2:20:04 Speaker 2: is that your house is gonna get spray painted with

2:20:06 Speaker 2: a message on the back side of your house.

2:20:08 Speaker 1: I'd go to that lady. She probably fucking did it.

2:20:11 Speaker 1: She knew it was coming. Impossible, she knew was coming impossible, impossible,

2:20:15 Speaker 1: I'm very possible. But this is all nonsense.

2:20:18 Speaker 2: But no, well wait a minute, don't wait a minute.

2:20:20 Speaker 2: So there is a predictability in events, However.

2:20:23 Speaker 1: Only if someone actually can prove that they've done that.

2:20:25 Speaker 1: And no one's ever done that. No one's ever said

2:20:28 Speaker 1: someone's going to spray paint your building and it wasn't

2:20:30 Speaker 1: them that I didn't prove it, prove it, show it

2:20:34 Speaker 1: to me. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, people

2:20:35 Speaker 1: have definitely spray painted people's bills, right, but no one

2:20:39 Speaker 1: has definitely showed you that there's real evidence that consciousness

2:20:43 Speaker 1: survives death and you can talk to someone from beyond

2:20:46 Speaker 1: the grave.

2:20:46 Speaker 2: There have been a mountain of readings for sitters who

2:20:51 Speaker 2: which where the information comes that says something is going

2:20:56 Speaker 2: to happen, and it happens. It's prognostication that a day

2:21:00 Speaker 2: or two or a week away and it happens. Maybe

2:21:03 Speaker 2: maybe no, no, it is.

2:21:05 Speaker 1: You just have to You've got to show me specifics

2:21:06 Speaker 1: that we're going to have this conversation. You see what

2:21:08 Speaker 1: I'm saying. Like for you to be so convinced, you

2:21:11 Speaker 1: should have things that you could pull out of the

2:21:12 Speaker 1: top of your head right now and tell me specifically

2:21:15 Speaker 1: that this event was predicted by this person, and this

2:21:18 Speaker 1: is how it happened, and there was no way they

2:21:19 Speaker 1: could have known about it otherwise, otherwise this shouldn't be convinced.

2:21:23 Speaker 2: Are in the tens of thousands, but.

2:21:25 Speaker 1: That doesn't mean anything when they're written down after the

2:21:27 Speaker 1: fact that it doesn't mean Jackshusan.

2:21:28 Speaker 2: But there are actual accounts of things. You have to say, well,

2:21:31 Speaker 2: the authors, the authors are all fraud.

2:21:33 Speaker 1: Maybe the authors are a fraud, a fraud. The problem

2:21:36 Speaker 1: is you want to believe that's the problem. So maybe

2:21:39 Speaker 1: it's true, Maybe it's true.

2:21:40 Speaker 2: I got the solution.

2:21:41 Speaker 1: Don't But here's the thing I got, Robert, I love you.

2:21:44 Speaker 2: You don't know I got the solution.

2:21:46 Speaker 1: What's the solution.

2:21:46 Speaker 2: The solution is for you to have a sitting for

2:21:49 Speaker 2: Christ's sake.

2:21:49 Speaker 1: Maybe that is not even good enough. Wait a minute earlier,

2:21:52 Speaker 1: it was no, never was never good enough. This was interesting,

2:21:55 Speaker 1: interesting to have a sitting.

2:21:57 Speaker 2: You could have both no ice cream, and you wouldn't.

2:21:59 Speaker 1: Be No, no, no, no, no no. You look, there is

2:22:03 Speaker 1: no proof ever that someone has been able to accurately

2:22:09 Speaker 1: perform some sort of psychic demonstration. That's the whole James randyness,

2:22:16 Speaker 1: I don't need a sitting man. You have a belief

2:22:19 Speaker 1: in these things that may or maybe not be founded.

2:22:21 Speaker 1: But the problem is you don't have any evidence. You're

2:22:24 Speaker 1: not saying you're not saying specific Like I can tell

2:22:27 Speaker 1: you specific things that I know are true, and I'll

2:22:30 Speaker 1: talk to you about them because I was there or

2:22:32 Speaker 1: I know about them. I can talk to you about

2:22:34 Speaker 1: martial arts events. I can talk to you about stand

2:22:37 Speaker 1: up comedy events. I know things that absolutely did happen.

2:22:41 Speaker 1: And therefore, if you argued with me and said there

2:22:43 Speaker 1: has never been a UFC fight, well that's not true

2:22:46 Speaker 1: because I could tell you specific dates. I can tell

2:22:48 Speaker 1: you what happened, what the result was, I could show

2:22:50 Speaker 1: you a videotape of it. You don't have that same

2:22:53 Speaker 1: knowledge of these things. But you have the same conviction

2:22:56 Speaker 1: that I have when I'm talking about things that are

2:22:58 Speaker 1: hardcore facts, like a mixed martial arts event or you

2:23:03 Speaker 1: know whatever, fill in the blank with whatever the event

2:23:04 Speaker 1: you wanted to be. You have that same sort of

2:23:07 Speaker 1: conviction that these things are real, but you don't have

2:23:10 Speaker 1: the same kind of hardcore evidence. Not only do you

2:23:13 Speaker 1: not have the same cud of hardcore evidence. Will give

2:23:15 Speaker 1: me an example, Give me an example.

2:23:17 Speaker 2: So an example is any kind of information coming from

2:23:22 Speaker 2: the other side that maybe you don't even know about. Okay,

2:23:26 Speaker 2: so it can't be explained away as telepathy or clairvoyance

2:23:29 Speaker 2: because you don't even know about it yourself.

2:23:31 Speaker 1: Give me an example of that.

2:23:32 Speaker 2: Well, pick anything that's that something is going to happen.

2:23:37 Speaker 1: Give me an example of someone actually doing this.

2:23:39 Speaker 2: Okay, so that at Martha just died.

2:23:45 Speaker 1: The fuck is aunt Martha? This is a real person.

2:23:48 Speaker 2: Well, you said, give me an exp No, No, I.

2:23:49 Speaker 1: Want an example of a real psychic prediction that turned out.

2:23:56 Speaker 2: I can fill this table up with examples.

2:23:58 Speaker 1: With literally, I just want one. You don't have to

2:24:00 Speaker 1: do that. Just give me one that you know about

2:24:02 Speaker 1: that I listen, I'm saying I have the same conviction

2:24:07 Speaker 1: in things that I know are real as you have

2:24:11 Speaker 1: when you're arguing that psychic ability is real. I just

2:24:14 Speaker 1: want you to tell me one.

2:24:15 Speaker 2: Okay, my own sitting, Okay, my own sitting, Okay. My

2:24:21 Speaker 2: father came across in the sitting, and my father was

2:24:27 Speaker 2: killed in a private plane crash when I was eighteen,

2:24:30 Speaker 2: and it wasn't his plane, it was his partner's plane.

2:24:34 Speaker 2: And so she tells this to me, and I hadn't

2:24:40 Speaker 2: thought about anything to do with his partner for decades.

2:24:45 Speaker 1: How long ago was this sitting?

2:24:48 Speaker 2: Long ago?

2:24:48 Speaker 1: How long ago did you have this sitting a few

2:24:51 Speaker 1: days ago? You're a famous public person and your history

2:24:56 Speaker 1: is available. Someone could find this out about.

2:24:58 Speaker 2: Oh well, that's maybe true on about the plane crash,

2:25:03 Speaker 2: but not the first name of the.

2:25:05 Speaker 1: Pilot, not the first name of your your father's partner.

2:25:09 Speaker 1: Why couldn't someone find that out?

2:25:11 Speaker 2: Yeah?

2:25:11 Speaker 1: Why couldn't someone find out that?

2:25:13 Speaker 2: I think I think because this is over a half

2:25:15 Speaker 2: a century old. I think it's it's like sixty I'm seventy.

2:25:19 Speaker 1: Six, right, But there was probably a record.

2:25:22 Speaker 2: I think that's stretching it.

2:25:24 Speaker 1: I don't think that's stretching it at all. You couldn't.

2:25:26 Speaker 1: You were telling me about UFO encounters from nineteen forty seven.

2:25:30 Speaker 1: You were telling me about people that have seen things.

2:25:33 Speaker 1: You were telling me about events that happened that are

2:25:35 Speaker 1: in the historical record.

2:25:36 Speaker 2: Okay, so let's shift to something else. This not ever

2:25:39 Speaker 2: could not have been written.

2:25:41 Speaker 1: Down, Okay.

2:25:41 Speaker 2: Okay, So in my own, my own setting.

2:25:47 Speaker 1: Okay.

2:25:48 Speaker 2: So my wife passed February nineteenth last year, and she

2:25:55 Speaker 2: was in and out of hospitals a lot for a

2:25:58 Speaker 2: long time. I was kind of the nurse at home

2:26:00 Speaker 2: for a couple of years, and so toward the end

2:26:06 Speaker 2: she was in the hospital about about three days before

2:26:10 Speaker 2: she wanted to pass at home. So the challenge was

2:26:13 Speaker 2: how to get her out of an area in the

2:26:15 Speaker 2: hospital that was basically a waiting area for people to

2:26:20 Speaker 2: go to die. It was an area that that's where

2:26:23 Speaker 2: people were that weren't expected to leave, Okay, alive. And

2:26:29 Speaker 2: so there was a day there where my son and

2:26:32 Speaker 2: my granddaughter and I were playing a lot of loud

2:26:36 Speaker 2: music in the room for my wife and the medium

2:26:45 Speaker 2: said to me, and I'm recording this, and the medium said,

2:26:50 Speaker 2: thank you. Your wife wants to thank you for all

2:26:53 Speaker 2: the music that was played for her before she passed

2:26:58 Speaker 2: all the music, and I said, well, I don't know

2:27:01 Speaker 2: about any music. I don't remember anything.

2:27:04 Speaker 1: And uh, why did you say that?

2:27:06 Speaker 2: Because I didn't remember.

2:27:07 Speaker 1: I didn't remember playing loud. I didn't remember. Now she

2:27:11 Speaker 1: talking about how do you remember it now?

2:27:13 Speaker 2: Because of my granddaughter, because I had recorded it, and

2:27:16 Speaker 2: we listened to the recording together after I had done

2:27:19 Speaker 2: the sitting, and my granddaughter says to me, pop, don't

2:27:23 Speaker 2: you remember d D DA? Oh God, that's right. Yeah, well, yeah,

2:27:30 Speaker 2: I forgot. I completely forgot it.

2:27:32 Speaker 1: Well that's certainly interesting and unusual.

2:27:35 Speaker 2: So what I would I don't know if she would

2:27:38 Speaker 2: do it, but I think she probably would be a

2:27:40 Speaker 2: very interested since it's you, and because you are a

2:27:44 Speaker 2: big figure that and you're easy to learn about. You'd

2:27:51 Speaker 2: go into this assuming which she's a very very honest person.

2:27:55 Speaker 2: But you would have to go intosassuming that your everything

2:27:58 Speaker 2: about you is so public you can find out a

2:28:01 Speaker 2: lot of things.

2:28:02 Speaker 1: So well, that's the problem that I always have with psychics. Yeah,

2:28:04 Speaker 1: don't tell me something that the challenge for her.

2:28:08 Speaker 2: Is to tell you, tell you something that nobody else

2:28:11 Speaker 2: could possibly know.

2:28:13 Speaker 1: But even that, well, nobody else could possibly know as

2:28:17 Speaker 1: a stretch, right, but tell me something that I don't know?

2:28:22 Speaker 1: When when whenever I've had friends that have gone had

2:28:24 Speaker 1: psychic greetings, I always say, well, how did they structure

2:28:27 Speaker 1: the questions? How? What did this go? How did this go?

2:28:30 Speaker 1: What did they say? Were they fishing around? Did they

2:28:32 Speaker 1: accurately get to it? Or did they give you probing questions? First?

2:28:35 Speaker 1: It's almost always probing questions. And they told me about

2:28:37 Speaker 1: my grandfather? How could they know? I go, you know,

2:28:40 Speaker 1: you know about your grandfather. Why don't they tell you

2:28:42 Speaker 1: some shit you don't know. Everybody tells you things you

2:28:44 Speaker 1: already know. Tell me something I don't know.

2:28:46 Speaker 2: So that'll be the challenge for her, wouldn't it is

2:28:49 Speaker 2: to be able to to tell you to tell Joe

2:28:52 Speaker 2: Rogan things that essentially only Joe knows.

2:28:57 Speaker 1: No, don't tell me things I know.

2:28:59 Speaker 2: Okay, tell me things i'd don't tell you a thing.

2:29:00 Speaker 1: Tell me reality that I'm not aware of that has

2:29:03 Speaker 1: nothing to do with me, or that may happen. So yeah,

2:29:06 Speaker 1: well something along those lines. Yeah, something where you know,

2:29:08 Speaker 1: don't say you're gonna spray paint my house.

2:29:09 Speaker 2: Then, but it's supposed to be a sitting for Joe.

2:29:11 Speaker 1: Yes, you're supposed to be I understand. So it's just

2:29:14 Speaker 1: the problem is they tell you things you already know,

2:29:16 Speaker 1: and I'm like, this is just I guess, I guess

2:29:18 Speaker 1: there's something to that, right, there's some sort.

2:29:20 Speaker 2: Of you're saying, Well, then that's only relevant because they're

2:29:25 Speaker 2: reading my mind, which is a whole.

2:29:28 Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. That's not what I'm saying at all.

2:29:30 Speaker 1: I'm saying they're they're telling you, they're giving you these

2:29:34 Speaker 1: questions in a way like I have a friend who

2:29:36 Speaker 1: does this. He's a mentalist. He does it at Las Vegas,

2:29:39 Speaker 1: and he tells me it's all bullshit. He tells me

2:29:41 Speaker 1: how he does it. He tells me how he structures

2:29:44 Speaker 1: these questions and probes people and gets people to give

2:29:47 Speaker 1: up information. Then he makes these educated guesses. And then

2:29:49 Speaker 1: they start saying, oh my god, I can't believe you

2:29:51 Speaker 1: know that.

2:29:51 Speaker 2: You don't are not supposed to say anything more than

2:29:53 Speaker 2: yes or no. You don't talk during the sitting. You're

2:29:57 Speaker 2: supposed to say yes or no. That's or say nothing.

2:30:00 Speaker 2: That's it. You're not supposed to talk.

2:30:02 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, listen, I haven't experienced this before I try

2:30:05 Speaker 1: to keep an open in mind. If someone actually could

2:30:07 Speaker 1: do this, that's pretty pretty spectacular. But to my understanding,

2:30:12 Speaker 1: and I've spent a lot of time reading about these

2:30:15 Speaker 1: things and reading about skeptics and the James Randy Challenge

2:30:18 Speaker 1: and all these different people that have tried to attempt

2:30:20 Speaker 1: to demonstrate psychic ability that no one has ever successfully

2:30:25 Speaker 1: done that.

2:30:26 Speaker 2: Okay, let's go back earlier.

2:30:29 Speaker 1: Am I wrong? Jamie? Wait a second, Like if the

2:30:31 Speaker 1: James Randy Challenge, like he's.

2:30:33 Speaker 2: Oh, he was a fraud, forget he was a lot

2:30:35 Speaker 2: of people, he wouldn't he wouldn't have ever paid out

2:30:37 Speaker 2: anything if somebody had been successful. But people all know that, No,

2:30:41 Speaker 2: he would not have paid it out because he disputed, arbitrarily,

2:30:45 Speaker 2: disputed everything that would would have been attempted. And finally

2:30:48 Speaker 2: people quit because he was not going to be fair

2:30:51 Speaker 2: in his judgment.

2:30:52 Speaker 1: What is fair though, in terms of psychic ability, if

2:30:54 Speaker 1: you could prove psychic ability shadows what's fair. But what

2:30:58 Speaker 1: was his what was his rules?

2:31:01 Speaker 2: Like?

2:31:01 Speaker 1: What did he want you to establish?

2:31:03 Speaker 2: I don't care about James Randy, I care about Joe

2:31:05 Speaker 2: Rogan and talked about this.

2:31:09 Speaker 1: We just stuck with aliens.

2:31:10 Speaker 2: Okay, well, wait a second, wait a second earlier, correct

2:31:14 Speaker 2: me if I'm wrong. You actually said, yes, there could

2:31:18 Speaker 2: be legitimate mediums. That's possible, and there can be better

2:31:23 Speaker 2: ones and and really terrific ones and maybe capabilities.

2:31:26 Speaker 1: Yeah. Maybe my problem is that your conviction, your your

2:31:30 Speaker 1: belief in this is so strong.

2:31:32 Speaker 2: Well, no, but what happened to the Joe of just

2:31:35 Speaker 2: a little while ago that says, yeah, there can be

2:31:37 Speaker 2: legitimate mediums, open minded they're all fraud because I know

2:31:42 Speaker 2: a magician.

2:31:42 Speaker 1: No that that Joe's open minded. I'm willing to believe

2:31:45 Speaker 1: that it's possible. But I don't understand why you're so

2:31:49 Speaker 1: convinced by just one story about music in a room.

2:31:54 Speaker 1: Maybe that's what happened. Maybe this lady tuned in to

2:31:57 Speaker 1: the the a Kashak wreck and figured out that there's

2:32:01 Speaker 1: some music in the room.

2:32:02 Speaker 2: When your wife is done, I would argue, start with

2:32:06 Speaker 2: and time is precious for a busy guy like yourself,

2:32:10 Speaker 2: but you have to start with reading good literature, reading

2:32:13 Speaker 2: good books.

2:32:14 Speaker 1: Okay, tell me a good book on psychics.

2:32:16 Speaker 2: I'll have to send you a list. I'll send you

2:32:20 Speaker 2: a list of things to read, and I'll do that

2:32:24 Speaker 2: you've got to give me how I do this.

2:32:25 Speaker 1: Okay, we'll talk afterwards. But you understand that most skeptics

2:32:30 Speaker 1: believe that this is all bullshit.

2:32:33 Speaker 2: Right, Well, they would or they wouldn't be skeptics.

2:32:35 Speaker 1: But I mean that's what they do.

2:32:39 Speaker 2: There's open minded skeptics too. You can be skeptical but

2:32:43 Speaker 2: still be open minded, right right, and don't. I don't

2:32:48 Speaker 2: immediately buy off in anything. I'm all I'm told just

2:32:50 Speaker 2: because I hear something. I like to get to a

2:32:54 Speaker 2: point where I stay open minded, and then I may

2:32:58 Speaker 2: start to shift into saying there's more and more maybe

2:33:01 Speaker 2: to this, let me investigate more. I'm not gonna let

2:33:05 Speaker 2: go until I let's investigate more. So just because I

2:33:08 Speaker 2: had one sitting here with this particular person, I've had

2:33:11 Speaker 2: others years ago, but.

2:33:13 Speaker 1: You seem particularly convinced that, well.

2:33:15 Speaker 2: This particular person was very good. It was a long

2:33:19 Speaker 2: it was three and a half hours long.

2:33:21 Speaker 1: Let's say. Okay, so there was there another example besides

2:33:24 Speaker 1: just the music.

2:33:26 Speaker 2: Yeah, there were there were a number of other examples.

2:33:28 Speaker 2: I'd have to stop and and uh and regurgitate everything, Okay,

2:33:36 Speaker 2: because right now I'm pumped up for space questions about space,

2:33:42 Speaker 2: cosmology ets survival of consciousness and what kind of car

2:33:47 Speaker 2: is the most fun to drive?

2:33:49 Speaker 1: Well, kind of car is the most fun to drive?

2:33:51 Speaker 2: The Lamberdoodle?

2:33:52 Speaker 1: The Lamberdoodle? What is that?

2:33:53 Speaker 2: It's a it's a name. I gave a car I

2:33:55 Speaker 2: just bought.

2:33:56 Speaker 1: What is it?

2:33:58 Speaker 2: Uh? It's an orange Lamborghini called.

2:34:05 Speaker 1: URSA or versus, Yeah, versus truck suv.

2:34:08 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a Yeah, it's an suv.

2:34:10 Speaker 1: Yeah.

2:34:11 Speaker 2: Six and forty horsepower, four wheel drive, eight speeds forward.

2:34:16 Speaker 2: It's the most fun car I've ever had in my life.

2:34:18 Speaker 1: It's a cool car. My friend Russell Peters has that

2:34:20 Speaker 1: exact same car. Who does Russell Peters hilarious stand up

2:34:23 Speaker 1: comedian from Toronto.

2:34:25 Speaker 2: It's an exciting car.

2:34:26 Speaker 1: Yeah, he loves it. He's got the same caror too.

2:34:29 Speaker 2: In fact, I bought two and one's going to be

2:34:33 Speaker 2: given away at the Larry Rubo Cleveland Clinic Gala in

2:34:40 Speaker 2: October in Las Vegas. Is going to be auctioned off.

2:34:44 Speaker 2: Oh really, And the price of that car is two

2:34:46 Speaker 2: hundred and eighty six thousand dollars. I think out the door.

2:34:48 Speaker 2: That's tax and everything. And he's going to auction that car.

2:34:51 Speaker 2: Off and come October, I.

2:34:53 Speaker 1: Think they're lining. I think it's more than that. You

2:34:55 Speaker 1: should be Think that car's like three hundred and something,

2:34:57 Speaker 1: isn't it. That's an expensive car? When when uh.

2:35:02 Speaker 2: It says ms r P bass.

2:35:03 Speaker 1: Is the base to eighty for the base? Yeah, Russell's

2:35:07 Speaker 1: was like super loaded up.

2:35:09 Speaker 2: You want to be at a gala to bid? No?

2:35:13 Speaker 2: Why not? I got things to do?

2:35:14 Speaker 1: Why not? I'm busy.

2:35:16 Speaker 2: It's a lot of fun. Larry puts on a hell

2:35:19 Speaker 2: of a show every year for these galas, and they're

2:35:21 Speaker 2: they're fantastic. Sure, yeah, it.

2:35:23 Speaker 1: Sounds like a good time. So that's the most fun

2:35:25 Speaker 1: car to drive for me, it has been What other

2:35:28 Speaker 1: cars have been driven that are like contenders? Uh?

2:35:31 Speaker 2: I have a Corvette my wife bought me when I

2:35:35 Speaker 2: was turning seventy, and I can't control it.

2:35:39 Speaker 1: Which one is zero one or something?

2:35:41 Speaker 2: It's a sting ray, it's uh, it's it's it's too

2:35:45 Speaker 2: much car. It's it's goosey on the on the rear end,

2:35:48 Speaker 2: it's too squirrel again, and I can't predict where it's

2:35:53 Speaker 2: going to go.

2:35:54 Speaker 1: Well, I just need to learn how to handle it.

2:35:56 Speaker 1: The new Corvettes are better for that. They they're mid engine.

2:35:59 Speaker 2: Now I can't see out of them. The new one's

2:36:01 Speaker 2: the rare window. There's no rare window. It's like four

2:36:03 Speaker 2: inches high.

2:36:04 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is a little smaller, and an.

2:36:05 Speaker 2: Eighteen wheelers up behind you. What do you do?

2:36:08 Speaker 1: Hit the gas? Yeah, don't let them miss behind you.

2:36:10 Speaker 2: They make me too nervous.

2:36:11 Speaker 1: I understand. Yeah, the new ones are pretty sweet though

2:36:14 Speaker 1: it's uh and there. It's much better traction with the

2:36:17 Speaker 1: mid engine design.

2:36:18 Speaker 2: Yeah.

2:36:18 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's get back to aliens. We've been talking for

2:36:22 Speaker 1: a long time, but I really want to talk to

2:36:24 Speaker 1: you about this. What evidence do you think is the

2:36:27 Speaker 1: best evidence in terms of what what physical evidence? Is

2:36:34 Speaker 1: it just video, is it just uh photographs, or do

2:36:39 Speaker 1: you think there's physical evidence that either our government or

2:36:44 Speaker 1: some other government has somewhere that could show beyond a

2:36:48 Speaker 1: shadow of a doubt. Because I know Jacques Vallet, who

2:36:51 Speaker 1: was on the podcast before, discussed we're talking about specific

2:36:56 Speaker 1: metals that have been examined that these alloys, if they

2:37:00 Speaker 1: had been produced in mass it would be billions and

2:37:05 Speaker 1: billions of dollars for these alloys, and that this was,

2:37:11 Speaker 1: although not evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence, seemed to indicate that

2:37:15 Speaker 1: something like because of the examination of these alloys, that

2:37:18 Speaker 1: this was this is not something that's mass produced in

2:37:21 Speaker 1: this country right now or in any country right now,

2:37:24 Speaker 1: like that this is something that if it was done,

2:37:26 Speaker 1: it would cost an insane amount of money to create,

2:37:29 Speaker 1: but yet here it is, right.

2:37:31 Speaker 2: Yeah, So people have pieces of things that are like

2:37:35 Speaker 2: that that have been I don't know, I assume they've

2:37:40 Speaker 2: gone through electron microscope and for ALEUXI. But there they

2:37:47 Speaker 2: are very unique in how thin they are, how many

2:37:50 Speaker 2: layers of material they have, and and the view the

2:38:00 Speaker 2: opinions are that we can't make.

2:38:04 Speaker 1: Them, and that these things have been recovered from crash

2:38:08 Speaker 1: sites apparently apparently. Yeah, But that's that is part of

2:38:12 Speaker 1: the problem, right, is that there's so little real concrete information,

2:38:18 Speaker 1: like there's there's no consortium of scientists that's aligned together

2:38:23 Speaker 1: that's saying this is one from another planet. We we've

2:38:27 Speaker 1: all examined this, We've got together with the people at

2:38:29 Speaker 1: Stanford and we we've done these tests and this is

2:38:32 Speaker 1: what we know. And here's the press conference, right that

2:38:35 Speaker 1: that's never happened yet.

2:38:37 Speaker 2: Well, so far, there have been investigations on these materials

2:38:43 Speaker 2: and they're anomalous. Yeah, do you think that's the they

2:38:49 Speaker 2: could be uh, you know something that's uh oh part

2:38:57 Speaker 2: of the part of the uh the UFO, you know

2:39:01 Speaker 2: some bowl that they hate out of, you know what?

2:39:05 Speaker 2: Who knows? And because how can you tell about a

2:39:09 Speaker 2: craft just because of one little.

2:39:10 Speaker 1: Piece other than Bob Lazar's experiences, which you know he

2:39:16 Speaker 1: has of course the most spectacular experience. Actually haven't been

2:39:19 Speaker 1: there at S four. You know. I wish there was

2:39:25 Speaker 1: a way we could convince whoever is in charge of

2:39:28 Speaker 1: that to allow people to film this, to allow people

2:39:32 Speaker 1: to examine this, to bring in the scientific community if

2:39:35 Speaker 1: it is a real thing. But the other the other

2:39:37 Speaker 1: thing about the bizarre story was that element one fifteen.

2:39:42 Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on that this was the idea

2:39:47 Speaker 1: that there was some super spectacular element that was a

2:39:52 Speaker 1: new version of propulsion, so instead of shooting something out

2:39:56 Speaker 1: of the back end, it was literally bending gravity.

2:40:00 Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't know enough about it to really comment.

2:40:04 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not just I'm not saying about anything

2:40:07 Speaker 2: to do with disparagingly with Bob Azar at all. I'm

2:40:10 Speaker 2: just talking about the element one fifteen. I have no idea,

2:40:15 Speaker 2: no understanding of its properties and what it can do

2:40:21 Speaker 2: or not. I don't have any information like I do

2:40:25 Speaker 2: on these other subjects survival of consciousness. I don't have

2:40:29 Speaker 2: any information about element one fifteen.

2:40:31 Speaker 1: Talk to Bob about it.

2:40:33 Speaker 2: Oh no, no, we the conversations about it were or

2:40:44 Speaker 2: somebody had taken his and he was kind of regretful

2:40:49 Speaker 2: that he had let go of it in some way

2:40:52 Speaker 2: and he wanted to get it back and and h.

2:40:55 Speaker 1: This was when he was at asked for Yeah.

2:40:57 Speaker 2: Yeah, so, but I I don't remember much about conversations

2:41:03 Speaker 2: about how much what all of its properties were, and uh,

2:41:07 Speaker 2: and that kind of thing. You know, did you bounce

2:41:10 Speaker 2: a ping pong ball and never it didn't come back

2:41:12 Speaker 2: to you straight, it took off in a different direction

2:41:14 Speaker 2: or something, or a candle flame or oh I didn't.

2:41:17 Speaker 2: I don't know about those things. I don't know, but

2:41:24 Speaker 2: I think that Oh, I had something else I was

2:41:27 Speaker 2: going to say, And I forget now on that one fifteen,

2:41:31 Speaker 2: how well, I forget what I was going to say.

2:41:34 Speaker 1: His diagrams of the the UFO of the Oh.

2:41:39 Speaker 2: I know what it was. Okay, getting back to these

2:41:41 Speaker 2: kinds of treasure. Uh, you were talking earlier that really

2:41:48 Speaker 2: what ought to happen is there ought to be a

2:41:53 Speaker 2: major program where you're gathering all the best scientists to

2:41:57 Speaker 2: analyze the hell out of all these materiurials that have

2:42:01 Speaker 2: been retrieved. But the problem is, you know, a lot

2:42:08 Speaker 2: of this stuff purportedly is in corporate hands, corporate hands

2:42:15 Speaker 2: and some in government hands, okay, and it's it's come

2:42:21 Speaker 2: to be kind of corporate treasure and national treasure at

2:42:26 Speaker 2: the same time, because it's because there's a relationship become

2:42:32 Speaker 2: between a company and the government that has this kind

2:42:35 Speaker 2: of treasure. It's it's a national kind of treasure. No

2:42:40 Speaker 2: pun intended there, but I mean it's a it's a

2:42:42 Speaker 2: in a sense, it's a national treasure, right, and so

2:42:46 Speaker 2: it's also a phenomenal treasure that isn't understood. And so

2:42:54 Speaker 2: the problem is it may be the most precious thing around.

2:43:00 Speaker 2: You know, you don't have diamonds that are more valuable.

2:43:03 Speaker 1: Right, you know, especially if it really is found craft exactly.

2:43:08 Speaker 2: And so it's drug out every ten years looked at

2:43:13 Speaker 2: to see if there's anything that we has improved in

2:43:17 Speaker 2: ten years on the understanding of X, Y and Z

2:43:21 Speaker 2: that makes sense, or has something else shifted has something

2:43:24 Speaker 2: else happened in the last ten years that could make

2:43:27 Speaker 2: a difference on trying to understand the material or craft

2:43:34 Speaker 2: or whatever.

2:43:34 Speaker 1: So you think that's what they do with it. They

2:43:36 Speaker 1: drag it out when technology is advanced and say what

2:43:40 Speaker 1: do you think now, right, and allow people to examine it.

2:43:42 Speaker 2: And then it goes back in storage because not enough

2:43:46 Speaker 2: has changed, not enough has changed. You know, we were

2:43:50 Speaker 2: talking about the speed of our technology, but it's all relative, right,

2:43:54 Speaker 2: So this technology is so much more advanced. You could

2:43:59 Speaker 2: do ten years for one hundred years and still be

2:44:03 Speaker 2: way short.

2:44:04 Speaker 1: Now, how do you know that this stuff is in

2:44:05 Speaker 1: corporate hands? Is just hearsays the discussions you've had, I

2:44:09 Speaker 1: would imagine because you're so open about your interests that

2:44:13 Speaker 1: in your conversations with other people, whether it's at NASA

2:44:17 Speaker 1: or there's got to be other folks that also have

2:44:19 Speaker 1: similar interests that come to you and want to talk

2:44:22 Speaker 1: to you about these things.

2:44:27 Speaker 2: Yeah. So there's a community of people, not necessarily NASA people,

2:44:32 Speaker 2: but that have been trailing this for years, George Napp

2:44:41 Speaker 2: for example. And so it's not poorly known that corporate

2:44:50 Speaker 2: certain corporations are involved.

2:44:54 Speaker 1: It's not poorly known so it's kind of common knowledge

2:44:56 Speaker 1: among people. Yeah, that operations are involved because they recovered

2:45:02 Speaker 1: it or they acquired it, and that if they were

2:45:05 Speaker 1: able to mass produce whatever these alloys are or whatever

2:45:08 Speaker 1: these particular the properties of these metals are, there would

2:45:11 Speaker 1: be obviously some amazing commercial value for this stuff.

2:45:16 Speaker 2: It may be too precious for that.

2:45:19 Speaker 1: M What about bodies.

2:45:28 Speaker 2: Now, you're talking about the Las Vegas desert or what.

2:45:30 Speaker 1: I'm talking about? Alien bodies? No, not like Sinatra's Enemies.

2:45:35 Speaker 2: Splashes and lake meat at one o'clock in the morning. Oh,

2:45:39 Speaker 2: off of a cliff.

2:45:40 Speaker 1: I'm talking about like alien bodies. That was one of

2:45:43 Speaker 1: the weirdest stories about Roswell was that they had not

2:45:47 Speaker 1: just recovered crashed UFO, but they had recovered these alien bodies.

2:45:53 Speaker 2: What do you think about Jackie Gleeson's wife's story about

2:45:57 Speaker 2: he and Richard Nixon. Yeah, Nixon taking him to the

2:46:00 Speaker 2: base and show him Jackie.

2:46:03 Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember that story. I had a friend who

2:46:07 Speaker 1: knew Jackie Leeson and he said that Jackie Gleeson had

2:46:11 Speaker 1: recreated in his backyard what he saw what Nixon showed him.

2:46:16 Speaker 2: Wow.

2:46:17 Speaker 1: Yeah, that apparently he was so blown away by Nixon.

2:46:22 Speaker 1: I guess they were drinking. This is the legend Nixon

2:46:25 Speaker 1: and Jackie Gleason were drinking. Jackie Leeson's fucking hilarious guy.

2:46:28 Speaker 1: Probably loved to drink. I mean, definitely love to drink,

2:46:30 Speaker 1: and probably so fun to drink with him. And Nixon

2:46:33 Speaker 1: are talking and Nixon says, you want to see a

2:46:35 Speaker 1: UFO and takes Jackie Gleeson to wherever it was Hangar

2:46:40 Speaker 1: eighteen or wherever it was where they had this UFO

2:46:43 Speaker 1: and shows him and apparently changed Jackie Leeson's life, and

2:46:47 Speaker 1: he couldn't stop talking about it. And what I had

2:46:49 Speaker 1: heard was that he had it recreated in his backyard,

2:46:53 Speaker 1: this thing. See if there's a story.

2:46:55 Speaker 2: That's a powerful impact, I'm looking.

2:46:57 Speaker 1: Yeah, so he saw something. Yeah, I listen. I'd be

2:46:59 Speaker 1: friends with Nickson just for that.

2:47:00 Speaker 2: It wasn't because of the booze, right.

2:47:02 Speaker 1: No, No, I don't think it was because of the

2:47:04 Speaker 1: boost I mean, look, I am a is ridiculous, it

2:47:08 Speaker 1: sounds or someone who doesn't believe in psychics. I'm a believer.

2:47:13 Speaker 1: I want to believe, you know. That's probably part of

2:47:17 Speaker 1: my problem is that I want to believe. Sure, Sure,

2:47:21 Speaker 1: And also there's so many planets, there's so many stars. Yeah,

2:47:25 Speaker 1: I mean the universe is literally littered with planets. And

2:47:29 Speaker 1: the idea that this is it, that you and me,

2:47:32 Speaker 1: this is as good as a guest.

2:47:33 Speaker 2: Well, the odds of that are a trillion to one.

2:47:35 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're not that good.

2:47:36 Speaker 2: It's off the table. The odds are so unlikely.

2:47:39 Speaker 1: And then when you take into account people like Commander

2:47:41 Speaker 1: David Framer, who I've had the pleasure of sitting down

2:47:43 Speaker 1: talking to and listening to his explanation. And then when

2:47:47 Speaker 1: you realize that the way his vehicle, the vehicle that

2:47:51 Speaker 1: he observed moved, mirrors what Bob Azara talked about from

2:47:55 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety. Now we're talking, we're in this weird realm

2:48:01 Speaker 1: of like, huh, So I'm a believer. So if the

2:48:06 Speaker 1: government has it, I mean shit in the nineteen sixties

2:48:10 Speaker 1: when Nixon was president and him and Jackie Gleeson are

2:48:13 Speaker 1: partying that that's a credible story, or at least a

2:48:18 Speaker 1: fun one.

2:48:18 Speaker 2: I always thought it was you find anything.

2:48:20 Speaker 1: I can't find the thing about the backyard because it

2:48:22 Speaker 1: just keeps bringing up his Ufo house he had in

2:48:25 Speaker 1: New York, which a ufo shaped house, and a bunch

2:48:27 Speaker 1: of interest inside. Oh whoa, yes, maybe that's part of it, okay.

2:48:34 Speaker 1: Upon his arrival, armed guards took Glease into a building

2:48:37 Speaker 1: in a remote location on the site. There, Gleason, who

2:48:40 Speaker 1: harbored an intense interest in UFOs, saw the embalmed bodies

2:48:44 Speaker 1: of four alien beings two feet long with small, bald

2:48:47 Speaker 1: heads and big ears. He was told nothing about the

2:48:50 Speaker 1: circumstances of the recovery. He swore his wife to secrecy,

2:48:53 Speaker 1: but after their divorce, Beverly freely discussed the story. That bitch,

2:48:58 Speaker 1: he swore his secrecy. That's what That's what happens when

2:49:01 Speaker 1: need to divorce them. In the mid nineteen eighties, when

2:49:04 Speaker 1: ufologist Larry Bryant sued the US government to get it

2:49:08 Speaker 1: to reveal its UFO secrets, he tried, without success, to

2:49:12 Speaker 1: subpoena Gleason. Holy shit, So that's the thing in his house,

2:49:17 Speaker 1: that's his backyard, that's his UFO house. So he built

2:49:20 Speaker 1: a house that So that was what they were talking about.

2:49:24 Speaker 1: It wasn't that he just built a UFO. He built

2:49:27 Speaker 1: a fucking house shaped like a UFO. Where is that

2:49:30 Speaker 1: New York? Is that still there? That's what I'm talking about,

2:49:36 Speaker 1: bro That's what I'm talking about. It was for sale.

2:49:39 Speaker 1: Here's the com thing for twelve million. Oh that's a

2:49:43 Speaker 1: little steep for a fucking negotiable, but it's Jackie Leason.

2:49:48 Speaker 1: It's probably worth it just because he's Jackie Gleason's Listen.

2:49:51 Speaker 1: The Hustler is one of my all time favorite movies.

2:49:53 Speaker 1: I'm a pool player and so that movie. I've seen

2:49:55 Speaker 1: that movie literally probably one hundred times because he used to.

2:49:58 Speaker 1: They used to put it on in the Execs can

2:50:00 Speaker 1: have Billiards and White Plains, New York. They would play

2:50:01 Speaker 1: it late at night all the time, so we would

2:50:03 Speaker 1: be playing pool. They'd put The Hustler on. Everybody loved it.

2:50:05 Speaker 1: Such a great movie, and Jackie Gleason was amazing in it,

2:50:09 Speaker 1: and a serious role too, not a comedic role at all.

2:50:12 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was great in The Honeymooners, wasn't he just great?

2:50:14 Speaker 1: And everything? Jackie Leason is great and smoking the bandit. Yeah,

2:50:17 Speaker 1: he was just creat I love that guy, but I

2:50:19 Speaker 1: love him even more because he's a UFO freak. Do

2:50:25 Speaker 1: you think that they have some sort of body somewhere? Yeah,

2:50:29 Speaker 1: you do, I do. What makes you think that?

2:50:38 Speaker 2: I think? What what what would be. Why do I

2:50:43 Speaker 2: think that trying to narrow it down? Mm hmm, Well,

2:50:54 Speaker 2: I think that I'm trying to not get into conversations.

2:51:04 Speaker 2: So I think that because it's in the I think

2:51:13 Speaker 2: there are enough different kinds of sources in the media

2:51:17 Speaker 2: about people seeing things. I did an interview years ago

2:51:23 Speaker 2: with Saffro Henderson and Stan Freedman and Kevin Randall went

2:51:32 Speaker 2: to her house in California because her husband was Patty Henderson,

2:51:39 Speaker 2: and Patty Henderson was one of the pilots that flew material,

2:51:44 Speaker 2: flew stuff out of right pat And she said, he

2:51:48 Speaker 2: said they were in a grocery store one day and

2:51:53 Speaker 2: the Inquirer had a big article aliens revealed so on

2:51:58 Speaker 2: and so forth, and there's the checkout stand, and she

2:52:02 Speaker 2: said he took the story seriously and as after they

2:52:07 Speaker 2: checked out, he said, well, I guess I can tell

2:52:10 Speaker 2: you now because it's out.

2:52:12 Speaker 1: So he told about the Inquirer was serious.

2:52:14 Speaker 2: He thought it was whatever it was inchoir, I think

2:52:17 Speaker 2: it was could have been some other one, but I

2:52:18 Speaker 2: just used that.

2:52:19 Speaker 1: As a as a one of those tabloids, as.

2:52:21 Speaker 2: One yeah magazine, and and he said, well, I guess

2:52:27 Speaker 2: it's the stories out I can tell you now about

2:52:29 Speaker 2: I flew the crates records and crates and wreckage out

2:52:36 Speaker 2: of out of and he told about the whole UFO thing.

2:52:39 Speaker 2: And I believe that she said that he said to

2:52:43 Speaker 2: her there were bodies.

2:52:46 Speaker 1: Now, this was part of the story that went with

2:52:49 Speaker 1: the whole Roswell crash was that there was a local

2:52:56 Speaker 1: mortuary that was told to make small coffins right, and

2:53:00 Speaker 1: people had said that they had seen these bodies, and

2:53:02 Speaker 1: that the wreckage was flown in three two separate planes

2:53:06 Speaker 1: to write Patterson Air Force Base, and that if they

2:53:08 Speaker 1: really thought it was just a balloon, why would they

2:53:10 Speaker 1: why would they fly it in two separate planes to

2:53:12 Speaker 1: write Patterson? And that Truman was Truman right?

2:53:15 Speaker 2: Why was it they couldn't recognize balloon material from something else?

2:53:19 Speaker 2: And you had a brief field there was a quarter

2:53:21 Speaker 2: mile wide, half a mile long.

2:53:22 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all pretty fantastic stuff. But again, part of

2:53:26 Speaker 1: my problem is I want to believe. That's part of

2:53:28 Speaker 1: my problem is that I'm willing to bullshit myself.

2:53:33 Speaker 2: So do you do you believe in a God force,

2:53:35 Speaker 2: a God force, a god or God or a God force?

2:53:38 Speaker 2: Do you believe there is such.

2:53:40 Speaker 1: A thing, what can you define it?

2:53:43 Speaker 2: Well, do you have any belief that there is a

2:53:50 Speaker 2: supreme being of the universe or a god force of

2:53:56 Speaker 2: some kind?

2:53:59 Speaker 1: I don't think it's impossible. I don't know. I don't

2:54:04 Speaker 1: know what what creates a big bang?

2:54:06 Speaker 2: Like?

2:54:07 Speaker 1: What what starts this whole process? What? What causes nature? What?

2:54:11 Speaker 1: What causes all these elements to fuse and create carbon

2:54:14 Speaker 1: based life? Causes? What causes planets to exist in a

2:54:18 Speaker 1: Goldilock's range around the Sun? Is it just happenstance? Is

2:54:21 Speaker 1: it coincidence?

2:54:22 Speaker 2: Is it just big bang? You know, is on its

2:54:24 Speaker 2: way out?

2:54:25 Speaker 1: The big Bang's on its way out.

2:54:26 Speaker 2: It's on its way out.

2:54:27 Speaker 1: Oh okay, So it's like fossil fuels.

2:54:31 Speaker 2: So string theory is on its way out, is it? Yep?

2:54:35 Speaker 1: Well not all those guys have been scribbling shit on

2:54:37 Speaker 1: legal pads for years.

2:54:38 Speaker 2: So, like a friend of a physicist's friend of mine

2:54:40 Speaker 2: said very recently that perhaps the entire generation has wasted

2:54:46 Speaker 2: its time. We've lost an entire generation of people, maybe

2:54:50 Speaker 2: longer than that, in my opinion.

2:54:52 Speaker 1: So what do they think now?

2:54:54 Speaker 2: The thinking is, first of all, it's a little bit

2:55:01 Speaker 2: bogus to think that the universe extends only as far

2:55:04 Speaker 2: as you can see thirteen and a half billion light years.

2:55:07 Speaker 1: I think they don't believe that though. They think that's

2:55:08 Speaker 1: just as far as we can measure it.

2:55:10 Speaker 2: Right, Well, they assume that the universe is expanding, and

2:55:17 Speaker 2: they're judging that based on thirteen and a half billion

2:55:20 Speaker 2: light years of sight. Right. Okay, that may be a

2:55:24 Speaker 2: very very small neighborhood, but that's as far as the

2:55:26 Speaker 2: cave wall is, and you're not seeing beyond the cave wall. Right.

2:55:30 Speaker 2: You're also telling me that you know a lot about

2:55:33 Speaker 2: the cosmos, and you want me to believe you, but

2:55:37 Speaker 2: yet you don't know what ninety five ninety six percent

2:55:40 Speaker 2: of the cosmos is of the energy. You have no

2:55:43 Speaker 2: idea dark energy, dark matter, You haven't a clue, And

2:55:47 Speaker 2: you're telling me that you know all of this stuff

2:55:50 Speaker 2: about the cosmos and you're missing ninety six percent of

2:55:53 Speaker 2: the information.

2:55:55 Speaker 1: Really, I think what they're trying to tell us is

2:55:57 Speaker 1: this is what we know so far. I think that's

2:56:00 Speaker 1: what they're trying to tell us. I think they're as

2:56:03 Speaker 1: perplexed about dark matter and dark energy as we are,

2:56:06 Speaker 1: but they have a lot of information about background radiation

2:56:12 Speaker 1: about the signals that seem to in a neighbor decate, Yeah,

2:56:16 Speaker 1: in a neighborhood, Yeah, in the neighborhood, neighborhood. Well, if

2:56:20 Speaker 1: the universe is infinite, thirteen and a half billion years

2:56:22 Speaker 1: is nothing, it's it's like literally this block, Yeah, not even.

2:56:26 Speaker 2: And then of course what singularity you know, big bang

2:56:29 Speaker 2: started from? What?

2:56:30 Speaker 1: From what? From that?

2:56:32 Speaker 2: And so string theory is a series of what eleven

2:56:34 Speaker 2: twelve theories apothesis stand on top of each other, and

2:56:37 Speaker 2: they all have to be perfect, they all have to

2:56:39 Speaker 2: fit for it, and you'll wind up with with this

2:56:42 Speaker 2: other conclusion that basically everything started from nothing.

2:56:47 Speaker 1: Well, they don't think it starts from nothing. They think

2:56:49 Speaker 1: it started from an infinitely small point that exploded in

2:56:53 Speaker 1: an instant and created all the matter that we see

2:56:55 Speaker 1: in okay verse today.

2:56:57 Speaker 2: So I can see the head of a pin as

2:56:59 Speaker 2: not being nothing.

2:57:00 Speaker 1: Conceive that, Well, better concede it, because it's got more matter.

2:57:04 Speaker 2: I've got to concede that.

2:57:07 Speaker 1: Okay, Right, it's just a theory. So it's just an opinion, right,

2:57:11 Speaker 1: But it's an opinion by people that have been studying

2:57:13 Speaker 1: this their whole lives, and they.

2:57:14 Speaker 2: Now it's out, it's going out the door.

2:57:16 Speaker 1: It is.

2:57:18 Speaker 2: That's what I've been told.

2:57:19 Speaker 1: Who told you that the psychic.

2:57:21 Speaker 2: Now, if I correlate the physicists that told me that

2:57:26 Speaker 2: along with the psyche, you really have something here.

2:57:29 Speaker 1: No. I think there's been a bunch of different ideas

2:57:35 Speaker 1: about the Big Bang, whether or not that's a constant

2:57:37 Speaker 1: cycle of expansion and contraction, and then there's been.

2:57:41 Speaker 2: I kind of actually like that one. Yeah, I like

2:57:43 Speaker 2: that study a certain kind of steady state of elasticity,

2:57:47 Speaker 2: an expansion and contraction that continues to go on and

2:57:50 Speaker 2: on with an orderly force being whatever dark entergy in

2:57:54 Speaker 2: dark matter is to maintain organization structure, to mean harmony

2:58:01 Speaker 2: in everything. So you each maximum elasticity and then it

2:58:05 Speaker 2: starts to retract again. Yeah, to your density is maximum

2:58:09 Speaker 2: density and you do this all over.

2:58:11 Speaker 1: That's that is a theory that I've heard. I like

2:58:13 Speaker 1: that one. Another theory that I think is pretty fascinating

2:58:16 Speaker 1: is the theory that inside of every black hole might

2:58:20 Speaker 1: be another universe. That the idea of inside every galaxy

2:58:24 Speaker 1: apparently is a super massive black hole that's exactly one

2:58:28 Speaker 1: half I think it's one half of one percent of

2:58:31 Speaker 1: the mass of the entire galaxy. So this intense massive

2:58:35 Speaker 1: black hole at the center of every galaxy. And the theory,

2:58:39 Speaker 1: at least the one that I had read, was that

2:58:42 Speaker 1: if you could go through that black hole, you would

2:58:46 Speaker 1: enter into another universe, and that each of these galaxies

2:58:51 Speaker 1: has infinite like there's infinite number of galaxies essentially, right,

2:58:55 Speaker 1: there's hundreds and hundreds of billions of galaxies and each

2:58:59 Speaker 1: galaxy as a black hole inside of it, a super

2:59:02 Speaker 1: massive black hole, and that through that you would go

2:59:05 Speaker 1: into another universe, and that there's infinite universes because there's

2:59:09 Speaker 1: there's just all these portals and inside each one of

2:59:12 Speaker 1: them there's hundreds of millions of galaxies or hundreds of

2:59:15 Speaker 1: billions of galaxies. Each one of them has a black hole.

2:59:17 Speaker 1: Go through that you reach more universes with hundreds of

2:59:20 Speaker 1: billions again, and it's just that's true infinities.

2:59:23 Speaker 2: And you can have the same effect if you have

2:59:25 Speaker 2: infinite bubbles, so you have multiverses right out of these bubbles.

2:59:28 Speaker 2: And maybe the bubbles are one hundred or two hundred

2:59:31 Speaker 2: billion light years in diameter, you know, and they just

2:59:33 Speaker 2: have unlimited So I don't buy that there's that space

2:59:37 Speaker 2: is finite. I think it's endless. I don't think thever

2:59:40 Speaker 2: was a beginning. I don't think there was an end

2:59:42 Speaker 2: to the universe. And so I think I think time

2:59:45 Speaker 2: is only relevant when you're when it's connected to some

2:59:48 Speaker 2: kind of matter or electrical energy or like electrons or

2:59:51 Speaker 2: protons or something like that. And otherwise there's no time

2:59:57 Speaker 2: because what are you measuring at against? Right? So, so

3:00:00 Speaker 2: that means that, okay, time could be infinite. Okay, and

3:00:04 Speaker 2: so is distance. There was no beginning and there is

3:00:07 Speaker 2: no end.

3:00:08 Speaker 1: Yeah, that freaks us out, But so shid thirteen and

3:00:12 Speaker 1: a half billion years, thirteen and a half billion light years.

3:00:15 Speaker 1: That should freak you out too. All of it is

3:00:17 Speaker 1: beyond our possibility of understanding because it's just so massive.

3:00:23 Speaker 1: Like when you see the number thirteen billion, it's like, okay,

3:00:25 Speaker 1: I see it. I know how many zeros are, but

3:00:27 Speaker 1: my brain's not ready for that. It doesn't really compute. Yeah,

3:00:31 Speaker 1: but what does that have to do with the concept

3:00:33 Speaker 1: of God? Though?

3:00:35 Speaker 2: So I was asking you do you believe in a

3:00:38 Speaker 2: god force? And you said yes, you think so.

3:00:40 Speaker 1: I realized, I said, it's it's certainly possible.

3:00:42 Speaker 2: Okay, Now, why do you think it's possible.

3:00:44 Speaker 1: Because the universe is so spectacular that the idea that

3:00:49 Speaker 1: there's some force that's created it doesn't make it any

3:00:52 Speaker 1: less spectacular, or it's so insane. Just what you're looking

3:00:58 Speaker 1: at on a night sky, a clear night sky, if

3:01:01 Speaker 1: you're in a place with no light pollution, is so insane.

3:01:04 Speaker 1: The idea that there's some God force as well that

3:01:07 Speaker 1: makes all these things happen and creates all these things,

3:01:10 Speaker 1: and there's there's actually like a good path and a

3:01:12 Speaker 1: bad path for at least a sentient life forms, and

3:01:15 Speaker 1: that there's some sort of ultimate goal for this this

3:01:19 Speaker 1: matter coalescing like that's possible.

3:01:23 Speaker 2: So if you think there's a God force, this omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent,

3:01:29 Speaker 2: what role does thought play in that?

3:01:34 Speaker 1: It's a good question. The thought could be what we

3:01:38 Speaker 1: were talking about earlier, that this could be how this

3:01:41 Speaker 1: human animal creates, how this human animal innovates, and how

3:01:46 Speaker 1: it interacts with other animals and gives it motivation to

3:01:48 Speaker 1: create and innovate, and this is what creates this new

3:01:52 Speaker 1: form of life. I've often said that I think that

3:01:55 Speaker 1: human beings might be some sort of biological catapory pillar

3:02:01 Speaker 1: that gives birth to an electronic butterfly, that we create

3:02:05 Speaker 1: something because of our desire for innovation and for material

3:02:09 Speaker 1: possessions and for there's a lot of weird instincts that

3:02:12 Speaker 1: people have. You got to wonder how are they serving us? Like,

3:02:14 Speaker 1: how is it serving us to live your whole life

3:02:16 Speaker 1: to try to buy a new house? And alexis like,

3:02:18 Speaker 1: what is it? What is it about that? Well, there's

3:02:20 Speaker 1: something about the pursuit of material possessions that encourages innovation

3:02:25 Speaker 1: and encourages the production of things. That's what people do.

3:02:29 Speaker 1: They make things. And if this is what our goal is,

3:02:32 Speaker 1: just like a bee makes a beehive and we make things,

3:02:35 Speaker 1: what's the ultimate expression of those things? Well, the ultimate

3:02:39 Speaker 1: expression would be a new form of life. And it

3:02:41 Speaker 1: seems there's a lot of work being pushed in that direction.

3:02:45 Speaker 1: There's a lot of work being pushed in the direction

3:02:47 Speaker 1: of artificial intelligence of robotics. I mean, there's so much

3:02:54 Speaker 1: research that's going on right now to try to create

3:02:58 Speaker 1: these autonous things that move around on their own, whether

3:03:02 Speaker 1: it's autonomous soldiers for the battlefield, or whether it's drones

3:03:07 Speaker 1: that can fly themselves and operate on on artificial intelligence,

3:03:10 Speaker 1: like there's this direction is going to eventually if you

3:03:15 Speaker 1: talk to people far smarter than me, like Elon Musk

3:03:18 Speaker 1: is terrified of it because he thinks it's unchecked and

3:03:20 Speaker 1: that it's going to lead to something that's super potent, sentient,

3:03:26 Speaker 1: far smarter than us and has no use for us.

3:03:30 Speaker 1: The next not a good thought. Not a good thought.

3:03:33 Speaker 2: Yeah, So so then you keep it open that God

3:03:39 Speaker 2: can be a creator and can respond to the power

3:03:41 Speaker 2: of prayer. If you're if you are praying for somebody,

3:03:45 Speaker 2: and there are a lot of studies that say the

3:03:46 Speaker 2: power of prayer works more than just a placebo kind

3:03:50 Speaker 2: of effect, you know that it actually actually works if

3:03:53 Speaker 2: you have a control group and a group that you're

3:03:56 Speaker 2: praying for in a group that's you know, there's been

3:03:58 Speaker 2: a lot of tests like this that are double blind tests,

3:04:01 Speaker 2: and it works in a laboratory kind of context. What

3:04:07 Speaker 2: is it that's responding to the request for prayer? Is

3:04:10 Speaker 2: it a God force? What is it that's responding.

3:04:15 Speaker 1: I don't know that that's true. I don't know that

3:04:18 Speaker 1: it's true that prayer works like that. I do know

3:04:22 Speaker 1: that the placebo effect works, and I do though that

3:04:24 Speaker 1: the mind has extraordinary properties that we haven't harnessed. I

3:04:27 Speaker 1: do know that people have the ability to change their

3:04:30 Speaker 1: state of mind and it'll change their physical wellbeing. I

3:04:33 Speaker 1: do know that people have the ability to boost their

3:04:36 Speaker 1: immune system through breathing exercises and meditation, and that we

3:04:40 Speaker 1: don't totally understand how they're doing that, or why they're

3:04:43 Speaker 1: doing that, or why we can't recreate that without that

3:04:46 Speaker 1: kind of discipline are an emerging property of being a

3:04:49 Speaker 1: person who's.

3:04:50 Speaker 2: Written some good books. He's an MD, retired and I

3:04:56 Speaker 2: guess he he left the hospital world because he was

3:05:02 Speaker 2: intrigued with the anomalies he found among his patients. And

3:05:05 Speaker 2: one of his books I think has something to do

3:05:08 Speaker 2: with the title of the Power of Prayer. His name's

3:05:09 Speaker 2: Larry Dossi, Doctor Larry Dossi, and and uh, it's a

3:05:16 Speaker 2: really book that's worth reading. Okay, it's he authored it

3:05:19 Speaker 2: quite a few years ago.

3:05:20 Speaker 1: And he talks about the power the.

3:05:23 Speaker 2: Power of prayer, power of prayer, and I bet I

3:05:25 Speaker 2: think he gets into the investigation of the power of

3:05:30 Speaker 2: prayer that works.

3:05:33 Speaker 1: So that like, well, you know, I think that's also

3:05:36 Speaker 1: probably works in a negative way too, right, This is

3:05:38 Speaker 1: what the concept of voodoo was concept of voodoo was

3:05:41 Speaker 1: that someone puts a curse on you, and they let

3:05:43 Speaker 1: you know they put a curse on you, and then

3:05:44 Speaker 1: your life is fucked. And then you get it in

3:05:46 Speaker 1: your head that your life is fucked, and then you

3:05:48 Speaker 1: have this self fulfilling prophecy.

3:05:50 Speaker 2: Well, supposedly the results under tested. You know, legitimate test

3:05:55 Speaker 2: conditions are that the results are great later than you

3:06:01 Speaker 2: can explain otherwise just because of just you may not

3:06:08 Speaker 2: even know that you're being prayed for. So it's a

3:06:10 Speaker 2: control situation, so you don't even know that you're part

3:06:14 Speaker 2: of the group that's being praised.

3:06:15 Speaker 1: How would you measure that though? When you're talking about

3:06:17 Speaker 1: response from illness and that everybody varies depending on your

3:06:20 Speaker 1: immune system and there's a lot of different things your nutrition,

3:06:24 Speaker 1: youth health.

3:06:25 Speaker 2: I think that gets into how the tests are set

3:06:27 Speaker 2: up right in order to make sure that they're balanced

3:06:32 Speaker 2: in the in the in the in the group, the

3:06:35 Speaker 2: sample group that's being prayed for, or the person maybe

3:06:39 Speaker 2: it's an individual.

3:06:40 Speaker 1: I think if someone knew you were praying for them,

3:06:42 Speaker 1: it would help. That seems to make a lot of

3:06:44 Speaker 1: sense if you know you're being loved to make you

3:06:46 Speaker 1: feel better, to make you energized. When you're loved, there's

3:06:53 Speaker 1: a feeling or reaction.

3:06:54 Speaker 2: According to the literature, not in his just his book,

3:06:57 Speaker 2: but others that that it helps. Also the number of

3:07:00 Speaker 2: people that are praying for you, and how committed everybody

3:07:03 Speaker 2: is to that that they're that, how earnest they are

3:07:06 Speaker 2: in the effort, so apparently that matters.

3:07:11 Speaker 1: What do you think about all that, Jamie, It's a lot,

3:07:15 Speaker 1: it's a lot to think of. Listen, Robert, we have

3:07:19 Speaker 1: we've had a long conversation here. I think we're at

3:07:21 Speaker 1: three hours in yeah, three three hours restaurant break and

3:07:28 Speaker 1: I'm just say, you're amazing. A lot of a lot

3:07:31 Speaker 1: of people they tap out early, they run out to pee.

3:07:34 Speaker 1: Now you handle it like a champ. But uh, thank

3:07:38 Speaker 1: you for all your work. Thank you for all the

3:07:39 Speaker 1: things you're you're interested in investigating, and thank you for

3:07:42 Speaker 1: your time to come here and sit down and talk

3:07:43 Speaker 1: to me.

3:07:43 Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you, this is my pleasure. I this

3:07:46 Speaker 2: is for me that it's a it's a great honor

3:07:49 Speaker 2: to be able to be on your show.

3:07:50 Speaker 1: Thank you. It's an honor to have you. I appreciate it. Thanks,

3:07:52 Speaker 1: thank you very much thanks, all right, goodbye everybody,